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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
the game was not designed with skill in mind. MMO mechanisms such as CC in a game like diablo is an awful idea. its akin to playing an FPS, and then the enemy AI just freezes you in spot and kills you. if you escape that they can then fear, jail, or wall you in too. HOORAY. no skill, all stupid. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
Sure, you can beat stuff by overgearing it, just like in WoW - heroic al'akir is a joke now, but it sure damn wasn't when it was current content, no? Just because you can waltz all over Sinestra now doesn't mean you get to call Paragon a bunch of no skill farmers. | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On June 27 2012 08:53 Phael wrote: You say that as if there are no cooldowns on enemy abilities that you can count, if only internally (see: kripp & krippi vs hardcore inferno diablo), or abilities that each class can use to get out of such cc if you were unable to avoid one, or abilities that each class can use to not get hit by such ccs in the first place, or the various terrain features that you can use to counter such abilities. Sure, you can beat stuff by overgearing it, just like in WoW - heroic al'akir is a joke now, but it sure damn wasn't when it was current content, no? Just because you can waltz all over Sinestra now doesn't mean you get to call Paragon a bunch of no skill farmers. jailer hits with no warning and no chance to dodge it. which is fine if you have an escape ability on cooldown. but if you've already burnt it because you've wasted it on another CC ability you are SOL. i'm OK with frozen, because you can dodge it, however when paired with bullshit like fear it becomes total bs. so if they reworked CC such as elites can only spawn with ONE AND ONLY ONE CC ability, and such ability had a "tell" such as a startup animation or a projectile you could dodge (like frozen), then fine. waller would be fine if you could destroy the wall. but right now that's not the case. CC is just a bad idea, they can remove it and replace it with more interesting mechanics. i'm a huge fan of arcane enchanted because it actually takes "skill" to dodge the laser beams, and you don't need good gear to do so. unless of course you are frozen/jailed/feared/walled, in which case you can't dodge and you die. because the game is not about skill because the designers are idiots who added in MMO mechanics in a freaking ACTION RPG. TLDR: beating a challenging side scrolling game because there are difficult jumps that require imppecable timing is great. beating a challenging side scrolling game where enemies can root you unless you buy gear on the RMAH to keep you alive is an exercise in frustraiton. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 27 2012 07:56 Phael wrote: What Act 2 wall? If you wanted to, you could easily have gotten past it in minutes if that. Use the hell-inferno public game exploit, get a friend to WP you to somewhere you want to farm, or straight up purchase the waypoint from anyone in general/trade chat. Remember what I said about illegitimate means? Anyways I got past it legit, so bugger that. Nothing excuses poor tuning and design though. On June 27 2012 07:56 Phael wrote: Do you mean the gear wall? Tough, all of us (more or less) got past it by playing the game, buying gear, and improving our character - much as you are right now. Hell, you have it easy. Back when I entered act2 inferno, a 800 dps 2hander sold for 10mil+ gold. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Acts I and II dropping better gear, though I do like how you basically say you got past the gear wall by playing through the game "legit" right after you say I should exploit to get past Act II. The gear wall before could be overcome through luck or farming spots that have been slowly removed, not to mention apparently overpowered skills. Either way, things are always expensive in the beginning because few people have progressed enough to supply the market. Just because you started first doesn't mean you should be able to endlessly profit. On June 27 2012 07:56 Phael wrote: We're unhappy because what was barely baseline profitable for us (~1mil/hour) got nerfed down to about a quarter of that, when you take repairs into consideration. And now we see the real reason you're unhappy, and lol at 1 mil/hr being "barely baseline profitable." A quarter of that is still better than what people stuck on Act II pre-1.03 could get unless they got lucky, so stop complaining just because people with less time or bad luck got a break. Maybe you should put in more time and be rewarded more! On June 27 2012 08:15 crms wrote: I'm not sure what you're going on about but in general I think players that put in more time or are more highly skilled should get substantially more rewarded. I mean, what else is there? There's nothing that says a player who got to Act III/IV through cheese or exploits is more skilled or put in more time and should be rewarded as such. Quite frankly, Act III pre-1.03 was pretty much a snoozefest to progress through for ranged compared with parts of Act II and Belial himself. Granted, if you put in more time you should by all means get more, but that's a completely different argument. If a players stuck on Act II Inferno because of gear spend way more time than you trying to grind gear from Act I and Act III/IV Hell they should be rewarded more or at the very least get what he needed to progress right? The problem was they would be barely rewarded at all compared to you farming Act III/IV for 1 mil/hr or more unless they got enough essence or a nice drop to sell to buy enough gear to get over the wall. It was a huge disparity and was essentially those who had played since release (or marathoned) and progressed through whatever means being able to make immense profits off those who came late, hadn't managed to progress as far and/or had bad luck on drops. On June 27 2012 08:15 crms wrote: If you weren't in act 3 pre-patch you likely; didn't put in as much time as much as those that made it, were not as skilled as those that made it or you weren't knowledgable enough about the game to appropriately build your character, use the AH, or trade with players/friends. Take your pick. You're really going to pull the "not skilled enough" card on D3? I guess it took tons of skill to be able to keep using 4 second SS or exploit through public games. I suppose stacking IAS and crit dmg was the pinnacle of skill then too? Should I stuncheese too or something and then say I'm skilled? D3 is a gear game and even that part is hugely dependent on luck, so get off your high horse. You mean whether or not you have the gear to bruteforce things down? On June 27 2012 08:53 Phael wrote: You say that as if there are no cooldowns on enemy abilities that you can count, if only internally (see: kripp & krippi vs hardcore inferno diablo), or abilities that each class can use to get out of such cc if you were unable to avoid one, or abilities that each class can use to not get hit by such ccs in the first place, or the various terrain features that you can use to counter such abilities. Sure, you can beat stuff by overgearing it, just like in WoW - heroic al'akir is a joke now, but it sure damn wasn't when it was current content, no? Just because you can waltz all over Sinestra now doesn't mean you get to call Paragon a bunch of no skill farmers. If only there were no server issues (ironically seems worse after 1.03 server "fixes"), terrain didn't occasionally get you stuck and swings wouldn't hit after you were way out of range. Blizzard is also (not in notes but from reported in game observations) apparently randomizing encounter ability orders so its not as predictable anymore. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
I'm sure there are more explanations but to simply call everyone who cleared inferno quickly an exploiter or lucky is quite ignorant. Also about skill, Diablo is an easy game, especially when considering the forum we're arguing about this on is related to Starcraft one of the more challenging games, ever. However, it does take some skill, I mean there are some really bad people if you turn on streams and watch them play. Hell even if I compare all my friends that play, my girlfriend etc., believe it or not some people are mechanically bad at Diablo. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
On June 27 2012 12:36 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: any idea which gold exploits they've fixed in 1.0.3a? u gained 810 per zk (which was like 10 seconds) from level 1 to 60 u could have more than 1 mi .... | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 27 2012 12:33 crms wrote: You raged a lot and I never said the problem had to be skill based, skill was one of the factors people might not be in act 3, not the only factor, re-read my post. You seem to blame ranged classes quite a bit and for what it's worth, I beat inferno on my barbarian during the 2nd week of the game. I farmed act 3 exclusively on my barb by tanking for my group of friends or running solo. I ended up rerolling a DH about a week prior to 1.0.3 because it was just insanely more efficient. I agree some exploitive skills let players advance faster than anticipated but even still, most players who were efficiently farming act 3 pre-patch: a) spent more time, b) were more skilled c) had more game knowledge and appropriately geared their characters for progression d) exploited until nerfed or e) some combination or all of the above. I'm sure there are more explanations but to simply call everyone who cleared inferno quickly an exploiter or lucky is quite ignorant. Also about skill, Diablo is an easy game, especially when considering the forum we're arguing about this on is related to Starcraft one of the more challenging games, ever. However, it does take some skill, I mean there are some really bad people if you turn on streams and watch them play. Hell even if I compare all my friends that play, my girlfriend etc., believe it or not some people are mechanically bad at Diablo. Why is everything "raging" these days? By your criteria, you sure are raging a lot too! Lets be honest though, the only people really raging are those whose profit margins were hurt by 1.03. Skill wasn't a factor at all in why some people couldn't make it to Act III, it was poor tuning and insufficient gear (drops). I didn't and don't blame ranged classes, considering I am one; its just that the cheap, lazy difficulty inflation through high damage along with some frustrating mob combos are more punishing for melee. While my monk friend was grinding gear for resistances and vit, I was going glass cannon and clearing everything but damage reflect (its what I get for not running shadow power gloom). If you beat it on your barb week two good for you, I didn't even get the game until week four so I guess I missed out. Now its my turn to ask, did you read my post? I didn't call everyone who advanced to Act III exploiters and/or lucky (I certainly did for some), but I did state they were not necessarily more skilled or had more game knowledge. However, they most certainly did spend more time and were more persistent, probably had better luck on drops to get "sufficient" gear (more time goes into this too), and some had skills that were overpowered at the time. For player skill to be the margin with which some people cleared to Act III/IV and some didn't, the latter should never have even gotten through Hell - the actual "skill" (reaction time) requirement is that low. Class knowledge is a laughable factor to bring up because everyone's cookie cutter with little variation already. There's also grouping, which makes some things easier and some probably more difficult, but the ones it makes more difficult are probably all optional elite packs. As for bad players, there will always be baddies who don't react to plagued or whatever, but for D3 Inferno, there are only lazy mechanics, poor design and tuning, and a lot of bad luck on drops. | ||
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DnameIN
Poland146 Posts
An no, this is not MMO. Everyone could make DH or Wiz in 2-3days, and start using "exploits". Truth is, Wiz was able to exploit for merely few days - it's not like we could farm all weeks like that. For me, it was on the time when I was finishing Hell difficulty. Progressing Inferno was really hard for me, but I did it. In my oponion, I deserve to have access to better farm spots then Act 1 - but there is NONE now. And this SUX  | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 27 2012 17:33 DnameIN wrote: 1mln/1h was indeed posisble, but i would say it was 600-800k per hour in Act 3 doing Azmodan runs. It is now nerfed at least 3 times, while I am sure you can farm Hell Act 3 with Gold find to get around 300k per hour (correct me if i'm wrong, I didn't try it). This sure removes any reason to farm A3 and 4, unless you can roflstomp everything there on the run (like most of us can do in A1 atm). An no, this is not MMO. Everyone could make DH or Wiz in 2-3days, and start using "exploits". Truth is, Wiz was able to exploit for merely few days - it's not like we could farm all weeks like that. For me, it was on the time when I was finishing Hell difficulty. Progressing Inferno was really hard for me, but I did it. In my oponion, I deserve to have access to better farm spots then Act 1 - but there is NONE now. And this SUX You deserve and get access to the better drop rates in Act III/IV (being patched higher again due to negative feedback for 1.03 rates), but there is no reason ilevel 63 should only drop in Acts III/IV. Some people are unhappy because they lost their in-game cash cow, but overall the feedback from players seems fine on the better loot in earlier acts, and the drop rate was too high in Act III/IV anyways (>20% on ilevel 61-63? That doesn't sound even a little wrong to anyone?). It appears to have been quite a shock and disappointment to players that took the high rate for granted, but its still barely a taste of what people who were stuck and had bad luck on rolls were dealing with. | ||
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MisterD
Germany1338 Posts
On June 27 2012 17:33 DnameIN wrote: 1mln/1h was indeed posisble, but i would say it was 600-800k per hour in Act 3 doing Azmodan runs. It is now nerfed at least 3 times, while I am sure you can farm Hell Act 3 with Gold find to get around 300k per hour (correct me if i'm wrong, I didn't try it). This sure removes any reason to farm A3 and 4, unless you can roflstomp everything there on the run (like most of us can do in A1 atm). An no, this is not MMO. Everyone could make DH or Wiz in 2-3days, and start using "exploits". Truth is, Wiz was able to exploit for merely few days - it's not like we could farm all weeks like that. For me, it was on the time when I was finishing Hell difficulty. Progressing Inferno was really hard for me, but I did it. In my oponion, I deserve to have access to better farm spots then Act 1 - but there is NONE now. And this SUX bridge runs in hell act 3 with mediocre gold equip gives you close to 200k/h, i don't think you can get up to 300k/h even with very good equip except for during a few very lucky runs. so if the same runs in inferno now give about the same amount of gold, it's still a lot better running them because in hell, every single item, without exception, is worthless. In inferno you at least have the chance to find good items. although it certainly isn't any fun to do if you're only running for the gold and don't get any more than if you were doing it in easy mode. ;P | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
nice attribs lowest possible dps for lv 63 weapons (which is very rarely to drop ... and when it does ... ) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Uvuk0.jpg) | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On June 27 2012 22:27 noD wrote: This is what is making me give up of the game nice attribs lowest possible dps for lv 63 weapons (which is very rarely to drop ... and when it does ... ) what's bothering you, i don't even understand what you are trying to show us. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
either they increase their rate or they just make it so it wont have useless damage... Im tired of 90% of ah being bots selling weapons for 10 k since they can farm millions per day ... just that ... | ||
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Oldfool
Australia394 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:21 noD wrote: im tired of awesome stats weapon with lowest possible dps on level 63 ... either they increase their rate or they just make it so it wont have useless damage... Im tired of 90% of ah being bots selling weapons for 10 k since they can farm millions per day ... just that ... I assume you're referring to the crossbow...but you have it equipped...it's confusing??! | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:34 Oldfool wrote: I assume you're referring to the crossbow...but you have it equipped...it's confusing??! I just equiped to show how lv 63 itens shouldnt be 200-300 damage 1h or 400-600 2h ... it's just wrong ... | ||
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On June 27 2012 19:03 Ig wrote: You deserve and get access to the better drop rates in Act III/IV (being patched higher again due to negative feedback for 1.03 rates), but there is no reason ilevel 63 should only drop in Acts III/IV. Some people are unhappy because they lost their in-game cash cow, but overall the feedback from players seems fine on the better loot in earlier acts, and the drop rate was too high in Act III/IV anyways (>20% on ilevel 61-63? That doesn't sound even a little wrong to anyone?). It appears to have been quite a shock and disappointment to players that took the high rate for granted, but its still barely a taste of what people who were stuck and had bad luck on rolls were dealing with. I like Act 1/2's drop rates in 1.03 but Act 3/4's drop rates are just plain rubbish. I have close to 50k dps post IAS nerf. I went back to Act 1 because it was so much more profitable than farming Act 3. It's not even close. Champions/uniques easily die to burst damage. There are far more convenient waypoints. The gold drops are better. There's no chance of dying unless being careless. There's fewer enemies with bs abilities. It's easier to find champion/unique packs. The areas are smaller. It's fine to help people progress through the game. It's fine to help people become well-geared in earlier acts to progress. But there's no reason to make reasonably geared people go back because the farming is just miles better. | ||
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