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Drops aren't balanced around maximum farming profit for people geared in pieces that are a few mil each - another thing on game scaling, and again, Act III isn't hard at all besides 1.03 Ghom and Act IV by all accounts isn't really that bad either.
funny cause i still have to play well and still die a bit in act3 with gear worth like 60-80m. most of my friends cant do act 3 well and 99% of the playerbase cant either.
and its not about maximum profit for selected few, its that the hardest content should give the best reward. end of story, no when or ifs or whatever.
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On June 30 2012 19:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't really get what you're arguing about. Phael has a legitimate point, and it really doesn't only effect a small subset of people. The fact is, nearly everyone is gonna be farming act 1, cause it's just more efficient until you get ridiculous DPS. It's not the fact that act 1 is viable to farm, it's that it remains the best place to farm for too long. Whether or not you think the mechanics themselves are difficult or not, it's still more difficult in the higher acts. Point being, you actually can die in the higher acts while in act 1 you're just running past mobs looking for elites and 1 shotting them. In act 3 you actually have to pay attention. For 99% of people it's just as efficient to farm act 1 and safer than act 3. There's no in between, and even though you're geared to the point where you could play with 1 hand through act 1, it's still not worth going through the higher acts with the drop rates as they are now.
You're really not making any sense. This isn't really a matter of rich vs. poor, but more so of let the other acts be worth farming. In any case, a geared player will always farm faster than you, it's just that geared players shouldn't be stuck in act 1 for life as well.
I don't get how I'm not making sense unless you didn't bother reading the whole part about scaling making the geared players farm Act I because they can do it so quickly. Also, how many players do you think are out there that can one-shot Act I elites? Drop rates are not the issue, they're fine. One of the other reasons Act I is worth more to farm is because you can sell more 500k-1 mil pieces because more people need those than the possible 10 mil pieces that will drop more in Act III. As people clear more it will be less valuable to farm, there's no reason they should nerf or buff drop rates again just to appease top geared farmers in the short term.
On July 01 2012 02:14 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +Drops aren't balanced around maximum farming profit for people geared in pieces that are a few mil each - another thing on game scaling, and again, Act III isn't hard at all besides 1.03 Ghom and Act IV by all accounts isn't really that bad either. funny cause i still have to play well and still die a bit in act3 with gear worth like 60-80m. most of my friends cant do act 3 well and 99% of the playerbase cant either. and its not about maximum profit for selected few, its that the hardest content should give the best reward. end of story, no when or ifs or whatever.
It does give the best reward, the issue is that because of farming time from hp scaling, Act III elites just take way (relatively) longer to kill and it becomes less profitable to farm over Act I if you breeze through at Phael's speed. You die in Act III because the mobs do more and can take more, if they had Act II stats it would be way easier than Act II. Cheap "difficulty" inflation is not actual difficulty from mechanics.
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I don't understand why you keep pointing out the fact that act 3 gives the best reward outside of its context. What's the point? That's the only thing that matters, drop rate scaling relative to time clear. But it's not just the people who are clearing at lightning speed with a billion DPS that want this, it's anyone who can clear act 3 relatively comfortably without dying a million times.
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On July 01 2012 04:12 Ig wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 19:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't really get what you're arguing about. Phael has a legitimate point, and it really doesn't only effect a small subset of people. The fact is, nearly everyone is gonna be farming act 1, cause it's just more efficient until you get ridiculous DPS. It's not the fact that act 1 is viable to farm, it's that it remains the best place to farm for too long. Whether or not you think the mechanics themselves are difficult or not, it's still more difficult in the higher acts. Point being, you actually can die in the higher acts while in act 1 you're just running past mobs looking for elites and 1 shotting them. In act 3 you actually have to pay attention. For 99% of people it's just as efficient to farm act 1 and safer than act 3. There's no in between, and even though you're geared to the point where you could play with 1 hand through act 1, it's still not worth going through the higher acts with the drop rates as they are now.
You're really not making any sense. This isn't really a matter of rich vs. poor, but more so of let the other acts be worth farming. In any case, a geared player will always farm faster than you, it's just that geared players shouldn't be stuck in act 1 for life as well. I don't get how I'm not making sense unless you didn't bother reading the whole part about scaling making the geared players farm Act I because they can do it so quickly. Also, how many players do you think are out there that can one-shot Act I elites? Drop rates are not the issue, they're fine. One of the other reasons Act I is worth more to farm is because you can sell more 500k-1 mil pieces because more people need those than the possible 10 mil pieces that will drop more in Act III. As people clear more it will be less valuable to farm, there's no reason they should nerf or buff drop rates again just to appease top geared farmers in the short term. Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 02:14 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Drops aren't balanced around maximum farming profit for people geared in pieces that are a few mil each - another thing on game scaling, and again, Act III isn't hard at all besides 1.03 Ghom and Act IV by all accounts isn't really that bad either. funny cause i still have to play well and still die a bit in act3 with gear worth like 60-80m. most of my friends cant do act 3 well and 99% of the playerbase cant either. and its not about maximum profit for selected few, its that the hardest content should give the best reward. end of story, no when or ifs or whatever. It does give the best reward, the issue is that because of farming time from hp scaling, Act III elites just take way (relatively) longer to kill and it becomes less profitable to farm over Act I if you breeze through at Phael's speed. You die in Act III because the mobs do more and can take more, if they had Act II stats it would be way easier than Act II. Cheap "difficulty" inflation is not actual difficulty from mechanics.
Do you even bother to compare the mobs in Act 1 vs the mobs in Act 3? If champions/uniques in one area have 4x the hitpoints and 4x the drop rate, is it really more efficient to farm them? Not to mention they hit a lot harder.
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On July 01 2012 05:08 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't understand why you keep pointing out the fact that act 3 gives the best reward outside of its context. What's the point? That's the only thing that matters, drop rate scaling relative to time clear. But it's not just the people who are clearing at lightning speed with a billion DPS that want this, it's anyone who can clear act 3 relatively comfortably without dying a million times.
On July 01 2012 06:26 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:12 Ig wrote:On June 30 2012 19:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't really get what you're arguing about. Phael has a legitimate point, and it really doesn't only effect a small subset of people. The fact is, nearly everyone is gonna be farming act 1, cause it's just more efficient until you get ridiculous DPS. It's not the fact that act 1 is viable to farm, it's that it remains the best place to farm for too long. Whether or not you think the mechanics themselves are difficult or not, it's still more difficult in the higher acts. Point being, you actually can die in the higher acts while in act 1 you're just running past mobs looking for elites and 1 shotting them. In act 3 you actually have to pay attention. For 99% of people it's just as efficient to farm act 1 and safer than act 3. There's no in between, and even though you're geared to the point where you could play with 1 hand through act 1, it's still not worth going through the higher acts with the drop rates as they are now.
You're really not making any sense. This isn't really a matter of rich vs. poor, but more so of let the other acts be worth farming. In any case, a geared player will always farm faster than you, it's just that geared players shouldn't be stuck in act 1 for life as well. I don't get how I'm not making sense unless you didn't bother reading the whole part about scaling making the geared players farm Act I because they can do it so quickly. Also, how many players do you think are out there that can one-shot Act I elites? Drop rates are not the issue, they're fine. One of the other reasons Act I is worth more to farm is because you can sell more 500k-1 mil pieces because more people need those than the possible 10 mil pieces that will drop more in Act III. As people clear more it will be less valuable to farm, there's no reason they should nerf or buff drop rates again just to appease top geared farmers in the short term. On July 01 2012 02:14 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Drops aren't balanced around maximum farming profit for people geared in pieces that are a few mil each - another thing on game scaling, and again, Act III isn't hard at all besides 1.03 Ghom and Act IV by all accounts isn't really that bad either. funny cause i still have to play well and still die a bit in act3 with gear worth like 60-80m. most of my friends cant do act 3 well and 99% of the playerbase cant either. and its not about maximum profit for selected few, its that the hardest content should give the best reward. end of story, no when or ifs or whatever. It does give the best reward, the issue is that because of farming time from hp scaling, Act III elites just take way (relatively) longer to kill and it becomes less profitable to farm over Act I if you breeze through at Phael's speed. You die in Act III because the mobs do more and can take more, if they had Act II stats it would be way easier than Act II. Cheap "difficulty" inflation is not actual difficulty from mechanics. Do you even bother to compare the mobs in Act 1 vs the mobs in Act 3? If champions/uniques in one area have 4x the hitpoints and 4x the drop rate, is it really more efficient to farm them? Not to mention they hit a lot harder.
What did I just say about scaling being the bigger issue? Did you just not read that again? Either way for Act III to "give the best rewards" to people that do a ton of damage and can breeze through anything you would have to probably double the Act III rates and probably still have to nerf Act I/II rates. You see nothing wrong with this?
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Lol? Yes, scaling is the issue. Just about everyone has been pointing this out and has explained that's the reason why you need to buff drop rates to accommodate hp scaling of mobs. And no, you wouldn't need to "double" drop rates. You just need act 3 to be slightly better factoring in clear time, not way better. And even if you did need to double drop rates in order for that to happen, how is that a bad thing? Compared to what the current situation is, it wouldn't be much different, and it'd still be beneficial for mid tier players with enough gear to clear at a satisfying pace.
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On July 01 2012 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Lol? Yes, scaling is the issue. Just about everyone has been pointing this out and has explained that's the reason why you need to buff drop rates to accommodate hp scaling of mobs. And no, you wouldn't need to "double" drop rates. You just need act 3 to be slightly better factoring in clear time, not way better. And even if you did need to double drop rates in order for that to happen, how is that a bad thing? Compared to what the current situation is, it wouldn't be much different, and it'd still be beneficial for mid tier players with enough gear to clear at a satisfying pace.
You don't need to buff drop rates, you need to lower mob scaling as per your example an Act III elite may have 4x the hp of an Act I elite, but a player progressing through the Act will do maybe 2x their Act I dps tops, or for me personally, I did roughly 1.5x. To go with mobs that have lower hp, players need to do less damage at the top gear level, particularly concerning stats such as crit dmg being stacked obscenely with all those expensive items that have it all.
Some people want to address the scaling issue by changing drop rates, justifying it with the profits that they as well geared players make from farming. That is not a realistic scenario for most people progressing through or who have just cleared Inferno and are going back to farm. There's also simply no need to change the drop rates either, the last patch brought them fairly close to the original rates in Act III/IV with around ~16% drop rate on ilevel 63 and a ~22% rate on ilevel 62, and Act I/II that people already found much better than before are even better now. One look at the rates for ilevel 62/63 gear is all you need to see a progression in the drop rates through acts, a very reasonable progression in drop rate. In addition, a buff on the scale of double the previous rates for Act III/IV would benefit these well geared people padding their wallets far more than those farming who need the drops themselves, probably why they have no problem with it. Perhaps the rate of ilevel 61 drops in Act I/II may need a small nerf since its at ~24%, but something around 4% should be the max to reflect the curve from Act II - Act III with probably some additional tuning so you get fewer junk ilevel 50ish items to even that out (it would actually be nice for that in all Acts).
While the scaling issue is brought up a lot, people only look at the rates with no or very little thought on the mob scaling/player damage as the actual issue that needs to be addressed. Some even go so far as to defend the poor scaling, cheap mechanics and lazy design as "difficulty" and that they deserve something more for their "effort." Also, drops and mobs relative should never be tuned based on the needs and wants of way over-geared farmers.
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Lol why should the higher acts get EASIER to compensate? That's just dumb. The game is easy as is progression wise after the nerfs, and if you're talking from a "no AH progression" standpoint then it's basically the same thing. If you make drops better, it's easier to progress. And how would this be any different from just buffing drop rates exactly? If you're talking about lower geared players who want to farm act 3, then a nerf to hp scaling is still the same as a drop rate buff to them as it is to high DPS players.
And uhh, who cares if people wanting to go back and farm can't farm the higher acts? That's a progression in itself. You farm act 1, then act 2, then act 3 when you can. That's what people are looking for, not act 1... then act 1... then act 1. In any case, a drop rate increase for act 3 is good for a lot of players, and not just the top .01% (I've mentioned this like 50x). I honestly don't know what you think the current situation is, but you've got the completely wrong idea. If you buffed act 3 drops, then it'd give everyone an incentive to start clearing it. Pre patch I was in very mediocre gear with around 50k DPS. I wasn't clearing it in 2 hours, but so what? I could do it just fine and it was better than act 1, as it should be for players who reach a decent threshold.
You're just trying to make this into some sort of class warfare debate, but it really wouldn't be that big of a deal for geared players. All it would mean is slightly more efficient farm than what is currently from speed running act 1, and that we don't have to go through the lowest act for the rest of our lives while half asleep cause there's no challenge in it. The patch buffed act 3 drop rates, but it buffed act 1 as well. As it stands, the only people farming act 3 are the top .01% who benefit more from the current situation than anyone else.
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On July 01 2012 17:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Lol why should the higher acts get EASIER to compensate? That's just dumb. The game is easy as is progression wise after the nerfs, and if you're talking from a "no AH progression" standpoint then it's basically the same thing. If you make drops better, it's easier to progress. And how would this be any different from just buffing drop rates exactly? If you're talking about lower geared players who want to farm act 3, then a nerf to hp scaling is still the same as a drop rate buff to them as it is to high DPS players.
This isn't nerfing the game just to nerf the game, its about scaling so mob hp doesn't spike as much but has a smoother progression curve. Player damage would decrease too, especially at top levels. Its different from buffing drop rates because it would benefit the game in the long term. Lower geared players won't farm Act III because even with an hp nerf it would be more difficulty because they still do more damage, they'll keep farming Act I until they have the gear to farm Act III because it would be way easier for them that way. A nerf to hp and player damage is an improvement in scaling, just because it has the same effect as a drop rate buff doesn't mean it does the same things. Speaking of progression, post 1.03 its harder at several points with the boss buffs and relatively unchanged at others, good thing you beat the game when it was "hard" right?
On July 01 2012 17:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
And uhh, who cares if people wanting to go back and farm can't farm the higher acts? That's a progression in itself. You farm act 1, then act 2, then act 3 when you can. That's what people are looking for, not act 1... then act 1... then act 1. In any case, a drop rate increase for act 3 is good for a lot of players, and not just the top .01% (I've mentioned this like 50x). I honestly don't know what you think the current situation is, but you've got the completely wrong idea. If you buffed act 3 drops, then it'd give everyone an incentive to start clearing it. Pre patch I was in very mediocre gear with around 50k DPS. I wasn't clearing it in 2 hours, but so what? I could do it just fine and it was better than act 1, as it should be for players who reach a decent threshold.
I don't think you understand that time because of scaling is the issue, not rates. Act III has 4x Act I ilevel 63 rates and 2x ilevel 62 rates, if you could kill Act III mobs faster and Act I mobs had some hp tacked on since they honestly felt weaker after 1.03, it would make Act III relatively faster to farm and reduce the profit differential. People who can farm Act III and want to over Act I are clearly not worried about difficulty in the slightest, and its not like Act III was hard to begin with besides the standard D3 lazy just tack on a ton of hp and some damage "difficulty" scaling. The devs do want people in better gear to clear Act III instead, that's the whole reason they have the drop rates higher in Act III. The issue isn't related to actual difficulty, especially since again, many mobs and subsequently elites are just earlier Act ones recolored with more hp slapped on. I find it funny that you seem to be defending this as "difficulty." The reason Act I is superior to farm is because you get a bunch more ilevel 61 and supposedly more ilevel 62 drops to sell, not use, and I did say the ilevel 61 drop rate in Act I could use a small nerf to put it in line with the rate scaling of the others while you can only get more ilevel 62 because you clear so quickly. Act II is probably the point in the game that could use the most work to polish or remove some of the cheesy mobs so people at around that progression point will have more incentive farm it after Act I. There's no real farming progression because of a lot of issues, but the drop rates are actually in a fairly good spot now. I'll say it again since you seem to have difficulty understanding this: The drop rates are designed around getting upgrades, the game not scaling well with them steers people towards Act I - the easiest to farm.
On July 01 2012 17:29 Itsmedudeman wrote:
You're just trying to make this into some sort of class warfare debate, but it really wouldn't be that big of a deal for geared players. All it would mean is slightly more efficient farm than what is currently from speed running act 1, and that we don't have to go through the lowest act for the rest of our lives while half asleep cause there's no challenge in it. The patch buffed act 3 drop rates, but it buffed act 1 as well. As it stands, the only people farming act 3 are the top .01% who benefit more from the current situation than anyone else.
Just because I want the game to scale better and not have to greatly increase drop rates to "fix" the farming profit situation I'm making this into a class warfare debate? What's next, you're gonna say I'm mad and butthurt like that other guy? The fact is an increase on the scale of doubling Act III drop rates would definitely most benefit the top or already well geared players, they would just breeze through Act III instead of Act I and profit even more than they did pre-1.03. Come to think of it they stand to gain the most from any drop rate buff because they're the fastest farmers, and there's nothing wrong with being well geared and farming quickly. The people clearing Act III right now are those who either care less about the profit from selling ilevel 61/62 items than the actual upgrades or ilevel 63s they would get, or just don't care about it, I wouldn't say its just the top .01%. Also its not like higher acts once you get better gear are really more difficult and less sleep inducing than farming Act I, mobs just take longer to die.
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The game scales just fine. Just because inferno doesn't scale the same way nightmare/hell did doesn't mean it's bad scaling. Inferno was meant to be on a progression scale that's so linear and only requires you to play through each acts once or twice. It's the only end game in diablo, and it "should" take at least a few weeks to clear. As it is now, it would only take about a week with the AH.
Yes, I did beat the game when it was hard and when items weren't so damn easy to come by on the AH and when getting 30k DPS with decent survivability meant spending what you farmed for 2 weeks. Please explain to me how 44% reduced damage on all monsters past act 1 is somehow harder than it is now? I honestly think you picked up the game 2 weeks ago.
And I have no idea why you keep on going about greatly increasing drop rates. I don't think you've tested the farming efficiency at all. Just 4% more in ilvl 63 could make it worthwhile. See, you're turning this into some stupid class warfare shit again. Tell me how this also wouldn't benefit the people who don't breeze through act 3 but still stand to gain from it more than their act 1 pace?
And yeah, no shit considering all the mobs are the same throughout every act with the same affixes, but d3 was never about requiring skill to farm, and it never will be. The only thing that it requires is that you're paying attention to the affixes.
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It's really simple if you can farm Act 3 farm Act 3. Nothing else makes sense. If you are dying all over the place in Act 3 then fuck it.
But Blizzard does need to balance the classes a bit. I used to have a monk but I was forced to roll demon hunter for profit reasons. My DH crits for 300k and nothing I do with my monk is ever going to change that since DH hits everything on screen as well.
I blame wave of light. It used to deal 450 percent and then 450 percent damage to everything vaguely in front of you. Then they nerfed it TO THE GROUND and made the aftershock do 10 fucking times less damage. Who the fuck balances like this?
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Blizzard does. They <3 the nerf-bat. Almost to the point where I believe if they perceive any sort of imbalance it's met with nerf first, ask questions later. Just look at terran and the state it's in in SC2 now... ;\
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On July 02 2012 06:31 Itsmedudeman wrote:
The game scales just fine. Just because inferno doesn't scale the same way nightmare/hell did doesn't mean it's bad scaling. Inferno was meant to be on a progression scale that's so linear and only requires you to play through each acts once or twice. It's the only end game in diablo, and it "should" take at least a few weeks to clear. As it is now, it would only take about a week with the AH.
It doesn't scale just fine, they wanted the endgame to be farming for a few weeks but put in an AH and as you said even back then it took "only" two weeks back when you beat the game to get 30k dps and decent survivability. Back then you could take on bosses like that with lower dps (and less survivability cause bosses were a joke anyways), there was none of this enrage timer garbage, you just had to have patience. The game wasn't necessarily more difficult, but it was definitely different and you had to be much more self sufficient.
On July 02 2012 06:31 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Yes, I did beat the game when it was hard and when items weren't so damn easy to come by on the AH and when getting 30k DPS with decent survivability meant spending what you farmed for 2 weeks. Please explain to me how 44% reduced damage on all monsters past act 1 is somehow harder than it is now? I honestly think you picked up the game 2 weeks ago.
You beat the game when ability sequences were actual sequences and not more randomized. You possibly beat the game when there were gimmick builds and OP skills going around as well. 44% reduced damage had the biggest effect for normal mobs, which weren't really the thing that stopped people from progressing. Besides some mobs that had targeted nerfs like soul rippers, if an elite pack shredded you back then (assuming same gear), it would probably just take a little longer to shred you now or would just enrage. Yes things did more damage back then and more often than not one-shot you, but that was all untested/poorly tested difficulty inflation that usually required you to just back up and take it slow. You probably had a more "authentic" D3 experience, but if you don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to more difficulty at several points in progression now, then you sound like you're the one that picked up the game 2 weeks ago. For the record I picked it up four weeks ago, fashionably late.
On July 02 2012 06:31 Itsmedudeman wrote:
And I have no idea why you keep on going about greatly increasing drop rates. I don't think you've tested the farming efficiency at all. Just 4% more in ilvl 63 could make it worthwhile. See, you're turning this into some stupid class warfare shit again. Tell me how this also wouldn't benefit the people who don't breeze through act 3 but still stand to gain from it more than their act 1 pace?
Why are you mouthing off on how I haven't tested the rates? I know about the inefficiency and have tested it, albeit not at such a great gear level that I breeze through it all ez pz which is why I haven't denied it. Its not like its terribly difficult to make projections on these things anyways. If you wanted 4% more on just ilevel 63, then say you want that, not something like another half or double that Phael had nothing against and saw no issue with. Changes on that scale are fine and they're relatively small, but a lot of the people who want it changed want something far more than that. I still don't get how this is some kind of class warfare shit, I said a significant change in drop rates would most benefit those with great gear. I didn't elaborate at all on how it could smooth the progression and give incentive to farm later Acts for those who are at lower gear levels progressing through (or who have just cleared them), because I didn't think you'd be repeatedly throwing out a straw man and putting words in my mouth.
On July 02 2012 06:31 Itsmedudeman wrote:
And yeah, no shit considering all the mobs are the same throughout every act with the same affixes, but d3 was never about requiring skill to farm, and it never will be. The only thing that it requires is that you're paying attention to the affixes.
Doesn't that kinda kill your own argument about "difficulty?"
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On July 02 2012 08:32 ShivaN wrote:
Blizzard does. They <3 the nerf-bat. Almost to the point where I believe if they perceive any sort of imbalance it's met with nerf first, ask questions later. Just look at terran and the state it's in in SC2 now... ;\
Lol I figured it was only a matter of time before Terran QQ invaded ... the D3 thread ...
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wtf did somebody seriously just QQ about terran OP in diablo 3 thread?
game is not and should not be balanced around casual players. sure terran is weak for casuals because it requires the most "skill" (unless you 3 rax your way to GM lulz), but that's irrelevant. it should only be balanced around pros, and for the longest time, EMP was OP, snipe was OP, etc etc. terran deserved to get nerfed into the ground.
now back on topic, if blizz increases drop rates, everyone will get geared quicker, realize theres no endgame and then quit playing this game. lol. so they do not want to increase.
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