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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:47 MisterD wrote: they said legendary items with broken attack speed will remain broken. fuck me, i forgot about that. I assume that applies to Natalya's Mark too ? I was wondering why i didn't gain as much dps as i would have thought i would after buying a 20m ring, lol | ||
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Krowser
Canada788 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On June 29 2012 22:50 Nizaris wrote: fuck me, i forgot about that. I assume that applies to Natalya's Mark too ? I was wondering why i didn't gain as much dps as i would have thought i would after buying a 20m ring, lol I wouldn't complain toooo hard since the ring is worth it regardless because the natalya set is super broken  | ||
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DnameIN
Poland146 Posts
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Phael
United States281 Posts
"Increases attack speed by x%" = broken "Attack speed increased by x%" = working Natalya's mark is one of those that were always working (at least I didn't see any broken ones in the couple hundred I browsed when I was shopping for one a few weeks ago.) --- I'm just waiting to see if people will resume whining when the Act I/II farmers buy fewer items on the AH because they too can get more good drops. I've been told that the 1 mil/hr baseline from Act III pre-1.03 was barely profitable and that the patch quartered their income, so I guess 500k/hr in this new patch is going to be completely unprofitable? Oh wait with the possibility of market deflation it might even be less than that, now what will become of this? I guess I can wait and see! Broke out the MF set again and did a full act3 clear. Took me 2.5 hours, got ~120 rares, about 20 of which were lvl 63, and never had to vendor more than around a third of my inventory when I went back to sell. I've AH'd about a third of the stuff I found so far, and I'm up 3 mil. Probably still not as profitable as just plain crafting, but hey, lots more fun. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 30 2012 01:56 Phael wrote: Broke out the MF set again and did a full act3 clear. Took me 2.5 hours, got ~120 rares, about 20 of which were lvl 63, and never had to vendor more than around a third of my inventory when I went back to sell. I've AH'd about a third of the stuff I found so far, and I'm up 3 mil. Probably still not as profitable as just plain crafting, but hey, lots more fun. Caving in to the whiners who only cared about their bottom line... I guess at least its made it clear that farming items to sell to other players is the endgame, and taking to the forums and whining if you get less (still quadruple the rest) is the spoiled mentality of players in it. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
Not only that, after testing out full clearing act3, specific boss runs in act3, elite runs in act1 and so on, I can honestly say that farming act1 is at -least- 75% as profitable as any run variation in act3. In the best run I could come up with in act3, I'm killing a elite pack (bosses count for 2) with 5 stacks once every 2.5 min on average. In act1, that number goes down to 1 min - basically travel time. While you get fewer lvl 63 items (but not by a whole lot), you get more than double 61 and 62 items. Those items are still worth good gold, plus, you get to clear out whimsy at the end which is also pretty efficient. So for a player who is geared enough to wreck act3, act1 still gives almost comparable rewards ... I'd imagine everyone who cannot reliably kill packs in act3 without dying (but who can still progress through just fine) will get better results in act1. I'd suggest nerfing act1-2 drop rates even  And yes, farming items to sell is the endgame because as far as I'm concerned, my upgrades come through the AH and not the monsters I kill. Of all the gear I'm wearing, only one piece (pants) has been my own drop and I haven't bothered replacing it because it's passable, better gear is worth 20mil+, and pants can't spawn any dps stats anyway outside of int. --- I'm not exactly sure how you interpret a "whoops, we unintentionally halved drop rates of good gear in act3/4, here's a fix" as "caving in to whiners". | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
Act 1 has double the waypoints of Act 3 and there are places (fields of misery, cemetery, watch tower, festering woods, etc.) that are very small and rich in elite packs. I'm farming Cydaea/Azmodan and the keep levels mostly in Act 3. Except for the Cydaea/Azmodan run levels, it can be a pain to find elites in Act 3. Many of the levels are pretty large and the dungeons are maze-like. The battlements/stonefort/bridge levels are my next resort if I decide to play on instead of starting a new run. I still haven't figured out which of the battlefield optional dungeons are good from both a mob and layout perspective. | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On June 29 2012 23:20 Juicyfruit wrote: I wouldn't complain toooo hard since the ring is worth it regardless because the natalya set is super broken i'm not a DH... Wiz here, don't care about the regen shit. just using the 2 piece set for 7% crit. but thx for clarification Phael, i guess it's working then. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 30 2012 04:38 Phael wrote: I get exact as much as the rest of the players - I am, after all, playing the same game. It's not as if players are auto-locked into act1 and can't go on. Not only that, after testing out full clearing act3, specific boss runs in act3, elite runs in act1 and so on, I can honestly say that farming act1 is at -least- 75% as profitable as any run variation in act3. In the best run I could come up with in act3, I'm killing a elite pack (bosses count for 2) with 5 stacks once every 2.5 min on average. In act1, that number goes down to 1 min - basically travel time. While you get fewer lvl 63 items (but not by a whole lot), you get more than double 61 and 62 items. Those items are still worth good gold, plus, you get to clear out whimsy at the end which is also pretty efficient. So for a player who is geared enough to wreck act3, act1 still gives almost comparable rewards ... I'd imagine everyone who cannot reliably kill packs in act3 without dying (but who can still progress through just fine) will get better results in act1. Half the drop rate, 75% as profitable. Higher drop rate on ilevel 61 and 62 makes these items drop at a...lower rate too? You get more high quality (in terms of ilevel) rares in Act III/IV period, I'm not sure where you're getting the "double" ilevel 61 and 62 drops in Act I. Double the ilevel 57 maybe, but that's just part of the "time investment" right? Taking only twice as much time to get four times the drop rate on ilevel 63 isn't enough I guess. About that spoiled part... On June 30 2012 04:38 Phael wrote: I'd suggest nerfing act1-2 drop rates even I like how you were quick to insist that more time invested should provide more rewards for you, yet when drop rates were nerfed so you had to make an actual non-trivial (in relative terms) "time investment" for the same profit (still far more than an Act I farmer), you balked at the notion, even going so far as to call it socialism. Now you say Act I/II should be nerfed because the devs were smart enough to double drop rates across the board so it wouldn't exacerbate the "gear grind rewards those who don't need the gear" issue as much? On June 30 2012 04:38 Phael wrote: And yes, farming items to sell is the endgame because as far as I'm concerned, my upgrades come through the AH and not the monsters I kill. Of all the gear I'm wearing, only one piece (pants) has been my own drop and I haven't bothered replacing it because it's passable, better gear is worth 20mil+, and pants can't spawn any dps stats anyway outside of int. My statement was on how boring the endgame was, and you've just given a fair testimony of that. On June 30 2012 04:38 Phael wrote: I'm not exactly sure how you interpret a "whoops, we unintentionally halved drop rates of good gear in act3/4, here's a fix" as "caving in to whiners". You and the other whiners wanted it to go back to the way it was, you didn't want just a fix. A nerf to the drop rates was intentional and I agreed that it was too severe. I however do not agree with your apparent idea that Act III/IV should have an ilevel 63 drop rate more than quadruple Act I and double Act II, and more than (roughly) double the drop rate on ilevel 62 items compared with Act I. How much more do you want? | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
Lets say X = how much gold you can get per hour by chain farming act3/4 hell with dedicated GF gear. If a player is capable of killing anything in the game with minimal deaths, he should earn: Roughly X/hour in act1 Roughly 1.5X/hour in act2 Roughly 2X/hour in act3 Roughly 2.5-3X/hour in act4 After all, there should be incentive to keep killing stuff on harder difficulties. I think these are fairly reasonable numbers, right? Right now, that's not the pattern that we have. Currently, for someone capable of clearing everything, it looks something like: 2X/hour in act1 1.5-3X/hour in act2 (dunno about values here, haven't confirmed but those are pretty generous bounds) 2.5 X/hour in act3 1-1.5 X/hour in act4 (four reasons - mobs types are nasty = more deaths, mob hp is higher = longer time to clear, elite packs don't really spawn as often in other acts so you barely get 5 stacks before Izual, and only diablo, a five minute fight in itself, is classified as a "boss" with neph valor applied, vs 30 sec cydea/azmodan.) --- See, the problem with the drop rates isn't ilvl 63. In fact, I think if the worth of your loot was solely dependent on ilvl 63 gear, then the drop rates between act1/2/3 are fairly good. You can kill shit almost three times as fast in act1, for a quarter of the amount = you get less 63s per hour but run almost no risk. It's a decent tradeoff. The problem is that the chances for ilvl 61/62 drops are almost the same through all 4 acts, which is somewhat baffling to me. The thing is, ilvl 61/62 armor is really freaking good still. Personally, I'm only using 2 ilvl 63 items and my gear is probably above the 99.9% percentile. I want better of course, but 61/62 gear is already really freaking nice. So you have someone who can clear three times as many packs in act1 as you can in act3, and while the lvl 63 items are pretty balanced, you end up with a boatload more 61 and 62s in act1 for the same time spent. Maybe next year when only ilvl 63 items are worth anything, that makes sense, but right now that's head-scratch worthy. --- even going so far as to call it socialism. I specifically called your question of "why should those farming later acts get more rewards?" somewhat socialist. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:24 Phael wrote: Well, here's my ideal loot distribution: Lets say X = how much gold you can get per hour by chain farming act3/4 hell with dedicated GF gear. If a player is capable of killing anything in the game with minimal deaths, he should earn: Roughly X/hour in act1 Roughly 1.5X/hour in act2 Roughly 2X/hour in act3 Roughly 2.5-3X/hour in act4 After all, there should be incentive to keep killing stuff on harder difficulties. I think these are fairly reasonable numbers, right? Right now, that's not the pattern that we have. Currently, for someone capable of clearing everything, it looks something like: 2X/hour in act1 1.5-3X/hour in act2 (dunno about values here, haven't confirmed but those are pretty generous bounds) 2.5 X/hour in act3 1-1.5 X/hour in act4 (four reasons - mobs types are nasty = more deaths, mob hp is higher = longer time to clear, elite packs don't really spawn as often in other acts so you barely get 5 stacks before Izual, and only diablo, a five minute fight in itself, is classified as a "boss" with neph valor applied, vs 30 sec cydea/azmodan.) --- See, the problem with the drop rates isn't ilvl 63. In fact, I think if the worth of your loot was solely dependent on ilvl 63 gear, then the drop rates between act1/2/3 are fairly good. You can kill shit almost three times as fast in act1, for a quarter of the amount = you get less 63s per hour but run almost no risk. It's a decent tradeoff. The problem is that the chances for ilvl 61/62 drops are almost the same through all 4 acts, which is somewhat baffling to me. The thing is, ilvl 61/62 armor is really freaking good still. Personally, I'm only using 2 ilvl 63 items and my gear is probably above the 99.9% percentile. I want better of course, but 61/62 gear is already really freaking nice. So you have someone who can clear three times as many packs in act1 as you can in act3, and while the lvl 63 items are pretty balanced, you end up with a boatload more 61 and 62s in act1 for the same time spent. Maybe next year when only ilvl 63 items are worth anything, that makes sense, but right now that's head-scratch worthy. The problem with your problem with the drops is that the drop rates themselves suggest that the rewards from Act I-III follow your ideal more than they do your supposed distribution. I understand the point about loot and ilevel, I have ilevel 61 pieces that besides not having the extra frills of good ilevel 63 ones have great desired stats, on par with or even better than some ilevel 63 pieces fetching a fair amount. Generally speaking though, a higher ilevel item will have more stats and more of the good stuff when you get a comparably good roll. What I don't understand is how with the lower drop rates in Act I/II and the known prevalence of all the ilevel 50ish loot you get there, why do you keep insisting that someone farming Act I will get more than someone farming Act III? Blizzard has shown us stats with Act III having roughly double the drop rate on ilevel 62. The only items that have a comparable drop rate are ilevel 61 drops, and that's still ignoring all the ilevel 50ish loot that can drop instead. With 5 stack NV and now 150% additional mf from gear, I half the time still get only 1-2 rares per pack, and chances are one of those is an ilevel 50ish one. When I get more, I might even get 3 ilevel 50ish or just ilevel 60 rares. I'm baffled as to why you keep throwing out these skewed numbers when the real ones are in a link on the previous page and contradict just about everything you say. My own experiences with farming Act I has been far less lucrative than you say it should be and I can clear it fairly quickly. Maybe I just have terrible luck? I sure wish I could get as much as you say you can from Act I. On June 30 2012 08:24 Phael wrote: I specifically called your question of "why should those farming later acts get more rewards?" somewhat socialist. I'm not quite sure about that one, I think I've made it quite clear that I'm all for better and more rewards in later acts, just not oodles and oodles more in addition to a nerf for lower act farming. I hear Obamacare was passed though, want to escape public healthcare by moving to Canada? | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
iLvl 61: 23.9%, iLvl 62: 12.6%, Inferno – Act III and Act IV iLvl 61: 27.1%, iLvl 62: 21.7%, Here are the stats that I'm talking about. Like I said, the fastest I could get an act 3 run was about 1 elite pack at 5 stacks every 2.5 min. I can find and kill a pack every 1 min in act 1 though. It's a huge benefit being able to just straight up run past all trash mobs and engage elites - if trash mobs add, who cares? they get caught in the aoe destruction anyway and barely scratch you. (I've literally 1-shot entire packs of champions with an arcane orb in act1, that's how wimpy they are in comparison.) So for a given set of time (lets say 50 min, and each pack drops 2 rares) In act 1, I can pick up about 100 rares. Of these, 24 will be ilvl 61s and about 12 will be ilvl 62s. In act 3, I can pick up about 40 rares. Of these, 11 will be ilvl 61s and 8 will be ilvl 62s. Total of about 36 ilvl 61 & 62s in act1 vs 19 in act3 (and about 4 63s in act1 vs 6 in act3) See where I'm coming from? Is the difference in 2 ilvl 63s worth 17 more 61 and 62s? Perhaps later, not really now though. Honestly looking at these numbers I should just get to farming act1 =/ This is what I mean when I say act1 drop rates should be nerfed, if not 63, at least 62 and most definitely 61. There really shouldn't be any reason for a player who has no problem clearing act3 to run act1 because it gives him more of a profit for significantly less risk, and yet, that is the baffling conclusion that we can reach from a purely optimized farming point of view. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
Seeing your numbers, my statement on how the gear grind in its current incarnation most benefits guys like you who are grinding only for profit gets a little more credit, and your numbers are still heavily skewed because not everyone clears an elite pack a minute in Act I, I'd even say those who can are well in the minority of Inferno players. If I've read everything you've said so far correctly, what you want is basically for Act III to be the most profitable for you to farm so you can have your old cake (the profit) and another one on the side (the higher ilevel 63 drops) while the Act I guys get less so they're more likely to buy your stuff on the AH (the icing). The last part in your post highlights the problem with all your justifications for drop changes. You would think the design intent is to get people who need or have the higher level/top gear to farm later acts for those shiny ilevel 63s with the higher drop rate, as it is in any other game, but it seems the devs underestimated the importance of profit. I guess you can say its a little dumb of them because they do have an AH and RMAH. They increased drops so you got your higher rates, but that part was just caving in, the important part was that they did it across the board because they obviously didn't want Act III farmers to "have it all." Act I drops shouldn't be nerfed as it would only hurt those who haven't progressed to Act III because if they're in that position, then Act II at their probable gear level is in all likelihood frustrating to farm (annoying mobs). Changes to drop rates are not, should not and have not been done from a purely optimized farming point of view. Still, you keep asking for changes not just based on an optimized farming point of view, but one in which you're so well geared that you don't even need the drops for anything but the AH. This is why I called it whining - because it was just that. Some people suddenly had to actually "grind" for their profit instead of enjoying an up to 20% base drop rate on the ilevel 61+ items and that just would not do because they were so willing to put in more time for more rewards. I again have nothing against people farther in progression getting better rewards, its just natural. I do have something against them wanting what amounts to several times the rewards of lower acts and for Blizzard to make their farming more profitable without a thought towards anyone else. If you don't mind I'd like to ask why you would want a nerf to easy money Act I if it really is such easy items and money? Profit so you can buy another top tier item is clearly the most important factor to you but I'd like to know if there's anything else. | ||
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Phael
United States281 Posts
You're just parroting the same thing over again: that the man is sticking it to the downtrodden act1 farmers. You say you are in favor of those in later acts getting higher rewards than those in earlier acts, but as the numbers show, you don't. Not even close. It's not a matter of -me- being able to kill a pack in a minute in act1 normal, I also included in my kill rate of act 3 elite packs. If it takes you 3 minutes per act1 elite pack, if you were transplanted into act3 I guarantee it'd take you longer than 7 minutes per pack there, so even if you were able to farm act3 without dying, you'd still profit more in act1. Doesn't matter how quickly you kill, the -ratio- of stuff you kill in the allotted time is more important, and on top of that, the lower your damage, the more favored act1 becomes. See, that, to me, makes no sense. I don't want what I personally farm to be the best loot in the game - I want the HARDEST stuff to be the best loot. I will gravitate towards whatever is the best place to farm no matter where it is. Notice how I've said over and over again I want act4 to have the highest profit, yet why are we still discussing 1/3? I was farming act3 pre-patch because it was the area that maximized my earning potential. I crafted all last week and farmed twice just to get first hand confirmation of how crappy the drop rate was, because that was the path that maximized my earning potential. If I farm starting now, I'll only bother with act 1 because -that- now maximizes my earning potential. None of that makes sense, why should I play somewhere that is not the hardest area in the game to get the best reward? That is why I want a nerf to loot in acts 1, 2, AND 3, and a buff to 4. Edit: and as to why I think the drop rate nerf was ridiculous - it's because you always have to have a baseline to compare things to, and I think a fair standard is a completely non-geared character just stacking gold find, mowing through acts 3/4 in hell. That's the basic starting point that any level 60 can do, and when -that- earns more gold than farming act 3 inferno, then yeah, there is a small problem. I don't mind grinding, never have. I literally died over 200 times in the cave of the betrayer on inferno my first time through due to vastly unlucky quest resets and the force armor no vit build. I want my grind to have meaning though. | ||
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Ig
United States417 Posts
On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: You're making this personal when it isn't. I'm not a developer, I don't post on the bnet forums, and I seriously doubt a D3 dev will look on a SC2 site for feedback. Nothing of what I say will ever reach the ears of anyone who has anything to say about the direction this game goes. So it leaves me confused when you call it whining, because while I'm complaining about a perceived imbalance, I'm certainly not doing it with the intent to get my way, but rather to discuss a game that I'm fairly interested in. I'm making this personal because the reasons you believe things should be changed are personal. I call it whining because some of the things you said were the same things people said on the bnet forums with the same justifications over profit and nothing for long term changes that would benefit us all. The imbalance is insignificant for most players progressing and farming the acts who actually need the gear. The imbalance also isn't just a drop rate issue, and its only a "problem" for people like you who can just blow through all the mobs and elites like nothing and feel you should get better rewards when the speed with which you can clear is a better reward already. The problem is for every person that can do that, there could be five, ten, maybe even more players who can't. Why should the drops ever be balanced around the AH profits of people like you and not actual progression of gear relative to content? On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: You're just parroting the same thing over again: that the man is sticking it to the downtrodden act1 farmers. You say you are in favor of those in later acts getting higher rewards than those in earlier acts, but as the numbers show, you don't. Not even close. As if you and your skewed numbers aren't parroting the same thing over and over? There is no reason Act III/IV rates need be buffed more or that Act I rates should be nerfed. For ilevel 63 Act III has roughly 4x the rate, for ilevel 62 roughly 2x. You can definitely argue that ilevel 61 and 62 items can be great if you've got a great roll, but it turns out, the best items are still ilevel 63. Maybe they can buff the gold drops somewhat since there seem to be some overall imbalances with gold in Hell compared with Inferno as you stated, but for the items I don't see any reason why they need to be changed. The current rates relative to the content are fairly sensible, there's a gear curve that goes with the progression curve. If you want more ilevel 63, "better" overall gear and fewer junk ilevel 50ish rares, you go to Act III. If you're ok with mostly ilevel 61, some ilevel 62, and a small chance at ilevel 63, you go to Act I/II. I suppose I should have gotten to this part sooner but the problem post 1.03 isn't drop rates anymore. This isn't a drop rate issue, this is a game scaling issue. If you happen to want to defend the awful scaling as "difficulty" and keep focusing on the rates, then fine, keep defending cheap, cheesy and lazy design and mechanics. On another note I don't get why people like you believe the way to fix the problem is by addressing it in the one area where its actually fine. On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: It's not a matter of -me- being able to kill a pack in a minute in act1 normal, I also included in my kill rate of act 3 elite packs. If it takes you 3 minutes per act1 elite pack, if you were transplanted into act3 I guarantee it'd take you longer than 7 minutes per pack there, so even if you were able to farm act3 without dying, you'd still profit more in act1. Doesn't matter how quickly you kill, the -ratio- of stuff you kill in the allotted time is more important, and on top of that, the lower your damage, the more favored act1 becomes. The time requirements are a great example of the issue with hp scaling for difficulty inflation that's always been an issue. Act III mobs don't have more difficult mechanics when compared with Act II mobs (partially due to the cheesiness), so they literally just have a ton more hp tacked on beyond character damage scaling because hey, how else will we get more "difficulty" with minimal development effort? Fixing this would require things like changes to stats such as +crit dmg and nerfed mob hp in later acts accordingly to go with lower player dps from not stacking something like crit dmg to insane numbers (something Athene and maybe Kripp and others talked about as well). Act I being a viable place to farm was intended for people with low damage and poor gear, that is not a problem. It becoming the best place for you is because of your good gear and these other scaling issues. If you could clear Act III faster in great gear I can certainly see it becoming the most profitable again. On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: See, that, to me, makes no sense. I don't want what I personally farm to be the best loot in the game - I want the HARDEST stuff to be the best loot. Notice how I've said over and over again I want act4 to have the highest profit, yet why are we still discussing 1/3? Act III is not the hardest stuff, so why should it drop the best loot? Speaking of "hard" though nothing really is that "hard" outside of a few encounters with some punishing mechanics for some classes and lolGhom. Act IV having the highest profit would be difficult to implement simply because of its structure with fewer elite packs, a feature that also makes it less popular for farming, while Act II on the other hand can just be really annoying. We're discussing Act I/III because those are the ones that are most farmed and used in comparisons and as such are the most relevant. On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: I was farming act3 pre-patch because it was the area that maximized my earning potential. I crafted all last week and farmed twice just to get first hand confirmation of how crappy the drop rate was, because that was the path that maximized my earning potential. If I farm starting now, I'll only bother with act 1 because -that- now maximizes my earning potential. None of that makes sense, why should I play somewhere that is not the hardest area in the game to get the best reward? That is why I want a nerf to loot in acts 1, 2, AND 3, and a buff to 4. Drops aren't balanced around maximum farming profit for people geared in pieces that are a few mil each - another thing on game scaling, and again, Act III isn't hard at all besides 1.03 Ghom and Act IV by all accounts isn't really that bad either. On June 30 2012 17:17 Phael wrote: Edit: and as to why I think the drop rate nerf was ridiculous - it's because you always have to have a baseline to compare things to, and I think a fair standard is a completely non-geared character just stacking gold find, mowing through acts 3/4 in hell. That's the basic starting point that any level 60 can do, and when -that- earns more gold than farming act 3 inferno, then yeah, there is a small problem. Well that's something with multiple areas that need to be addressed. This isn't something that will be solved in the long run by just plain buffing Act III/IV Inferno drops and maybe nerfing Act I/II. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
You're really not making any sense. This isn't really a matter of rich vs. poor, but more so of let the other acts be worth farming. In any case, a geared player will always farm faster than you, it's just that geared players shouldn't be stuck in act 1 for life as well. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
Which quest I start, which waypoints to go to for the guaranteed spots? Thanks! | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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