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On June 21 2012 02:47 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:44 Yaotzin wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 TheYango wrote:On June 21 2012 02:09 Yaotzin wrote:
old siegebreaker run: 5 elites + boss: 2 guaranteed rares, ~16 items that MF decides.
new run: 20 elites + boss: 21 guaranteed rares, ~46 items that MF decides. This is a flawed comparison as well though. The first 5 elites in an act are significantly easier to find than the last 5, due to the existence of zones with a higher concentration of rares, fixed-layout dungeons etc. If you're doing 5 elites+1 boss many times, then you hit these high-efficiency locations many more times. I'd actually expect doing 5 elites+1boss 4 times to be significantly faster than doing 20 elites+1 boss because finding elites in a new game is MUCH easier than finding them in a game where you've already cleared 10-15 elites. Examples of such locations are the Watch Tower in act 1, or the Underbridge in act 3. Yes of course, but unfortunately this is rather difficult to quantify. It depends on the act, how well you know the spawn locations, how many places you're forced to avoid (eg soul rippers or phasebeasts). So I left it out, as I left out having to start from 0 valor more often for boss runs. The main point of the post anyway, was that simplistically comparing 8% to 20% is dumb. It's more complicated. it would have to be act 3 or 4 to be relevent to the conversation and the fact you still think hunting down 20 elites and a boss will yield the same or equal efficiency as pre-patch cydea->azmodan is fucking MIND blowing.
a) I never said that.
b) You're becoming an annoying troll. Can't you fuck off to some game you actually play?
User was warned for this post
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On June 21 2012 02:50 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:47 crms wrote:On June 21 2012 02:44 Yaotzin wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 TheYango wrote:On June 21 2012 02:09 Yaotzin wrote:
old siegebreaker run: 5 elites + boss: 2 guaranteed rares, ~16 items that MF decides.
new run: 20 elites + boss: 21 guaranteed rares, ~46 items that MF decides. This is a flawed comparison as well though. The first 5 elites in an act are significantly easier to find than the last 5, due to the existence of zones with a higher concentration of rares, fixed-layout dungeons etc. If you're doing 5 elites+1 boss many times, then you hit these high-efficiency locations many more times. I'd actually expect doing 5 elites+1boss 4 times to be significantly faster than doing 20 elites+1 boss because finding elites in a new game is MUCH easier than finding them in a game where you've already cleared 10-15 elites. Examples of such locations are the Watch Tower in act 1, or the Underbridge in act 3. Yes of course, but unfortunately this is rather difficult to quantify. It depends on the act, how well you know the spawn locations, how many places you're forced to avoid (eg soul rippers or phasebeasts). So I left it out, as I left out having to start from 0 valor more often for boss runs. The main point of the post anyway, was that simplistically comparing 8% to 20% is dumb. It's more complicated. it would have to be act 3 or 4 to be relevent to the conversation and the fact you still think hunting down 20 elites and a boss will yield the same or equal efficiency as pre-patch cydea->azmodan is fucking MIND blowing. a) I never said that. b) You're becoming an annoying troll. Can't you fuck off to some game you actually play?
if you don't find that to be the case, why in the fuck are you arguing? The entire point is people are upset that farming became less efficient. If you are on board with that line of thinking you're in agreement with everyone you've been arguing with for the last 5 pages. The fuck is going on?
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On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted.
Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit."
This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...)
You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book?
It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it.
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I'm not going to bother continuing to talk to you. You don't actually read what anyone says, you just respond - inevitably with hostility and venom - to some preconceived notion of what you think they're saying.
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On June 21 2012 02:59 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted. Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit." This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...) You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book? It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it.
Some people actually get gear with mf to play, so if this exploiting gives better results it needs to be fixed IMO.
I mean, how to justify that people sacrifice some survivability and DPS to have 100 extra MF, and other exploit swapping for final blow, playing with full DPS and survivability - with cheaper gear yet getting 200+ mf do you really consider 2x 10 click or something like that enought for all this benefits?
...do you honestly consider that 2x 10 click is justification for much easier gameplay, cheaper gear and yet better results? IMO its honestly just abuse...
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On June 21 2012 02:50 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:42 Heh_ wrote:On June 21 2012 02:10 crms wrote:On June 21 2012 02:02 dmfg wrote:On June 21 2012 01:59 crms wrote:On June 21 2012 01:48 dmfg wrote:On June 21 2012 01:43 crms wrote:On June 21 2012 01:39 dmfg wrote:On June 21 2012 01:03 crms wrote:
To clarify, that isn't 25% chance an ilvl63 rare will drop, it's 25% chance that when a rare drops it's ilvl63. However, now it's only 8% in the hardest acts of the game. I run with very little MF, and I am getting much more than 3 times as many rares dropping as I did before (thanks to guaranteed rare from 5NV). Admittedly I only farmed A2 before, but gonna try A3 when my internet next becomes playable. I think people went into this patch thinking that if they were suicide farming A3 before, they could now get 3 times as much good gear dropping every run which is not even close to what the patch is trying to achieve. it doesn't matter how many rares you get if none of them are ilvl63... I'd take 5 ilvl63s over 25 ilv60-62s. Also nobody expected what you said, they straight up nerfed the act3/4 drop rate of ilvl63s. Nobody in act3 will be getting as good of gear, at least as efficiently as before. Let me put it in numbers for you. Assuming you're right about the numbers: Before patch: 1 run of 20 elites + 1 boss: ~8 rares drop, 25% are ilvl 63 so in total I get 2 ilvl 63 rares After patch: 1 run of 20 elites + 1 boss: ~23 rares drop, 8% are ilvl 63 so in total I get 2 ilvl 63 rares, plus a ton more ilvl 61 and 62 rares The number of ilvl 63 rares is unchanged (and that's assuming your numbers are right, which tbh sound too high pre-patch). You just get more other stuff too. First, your numbers make 0 sense. 1 run of 20 elites and a boss? Who does this? How about you use actual values of 7 elites (on average) + 2 bosses, which was what the old cydea-azmodan runs actually entailed. And then consider ~25% of those rares generally were ilvl63. I'm glad you mathematically found a breaking point of 20 elites and 1 boss that makes the farming equal. I sure hope you enjoy your hour long runs and entire zone clearing searching for 20 packs, 15 of which would actually have the bonus. Cydea - 2-4 rares Azmodan 2-4 rares Elites 3-5 per clear low range 7 rares, 1.75 being ilvl63 @ 25% low range 7 rares, .056 being ilvl63 @ 8% high range 13 rares, 3.25 being ilvl63 @ 25% high range 13 rares, 1.04% being ilvl63 @ 8% That is a much more accurate portrayl of the massive nerf.. 20 elites and a boss.. the fuck? I farmed by doing sections of acts with my friend (monk + barb). We'd go from start of "Find Kulle's blood" Q and finish with Kulle + rare serpent magus pack just before Belial. Didn't usually do Belial because it took us near 15 minutes (and there's no way we could do him now with enrage). Looks like post patch, I don't have to change my farming pattern at all. EDIT: When Blizzard give a massive buff to farming elites with 5NV and you choose not to take advantage of that by using a sub-optimal farming routine, that's your problem. Not anyone else's, and certainly not mine  thanks for admitting defeat and that your proposed 20 elite strategy is not only a farce but complete bullocks. Farming efficiently for everyone who was good enough to do act 3/4 was severly nerfed into the ground. That's the point and you've been easily rebuked. Have a good day, enjoy act2. If you can farm A2 >50% quicker than A3, then it's actually wise to do so. There's also data coming in saying that farming efficiency hasn't changed much. And it's "bollocks", not "bullocks". Bollocks is a British term for nonsense, while bullocks is a bull (castrated or non-castrated depending on where you live..) Sorry about the bollocks. Where is this data? I see shacky speculations at best, gross negligence at worst. Also act 2 would have to be cleared much faster than 1/2 the time. If it takes 20 elites + boss to equal a pre-patch act 3 run where the values went from 25ish-8, it would likely take 40 elites + 2 bosses (this could be way off, quick math durp) in act 2 to be of same value. So unless you can farm 40 act 2 elites and 2 bosses within 20-25 minutes, there is no fucking way act 2 will be better than pre-patch act 3.
Well, the pre-patch data was also compiled through shaky speculations. 20-25% was a number randomly thrown out, I don't know if anybody actually did the calculations to derive that number.
20 elites + boss in A3 = 21 guaranteed rares, dropping ilvl63 rares at 6% = 1.26 on average.
30 elites + boss in A3 = 31 guaranteed rares, dropping ilvl63 rares at 4% = 1.24 on average. Don't forget that killing more elites + more generic mobs equals more item drops which can be rares.
Don't forget that these rough calculations are pre-MF. If you can reliably switch gear to >300%, you get ~5 guaranteed ilvl63 drops, plus several more from generic mobs.
Also, armor pieces lower then ilvl63 can still be good, few people bother about the slight increase in armor value.
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Hmm...I made a big mistake selling my high IAS weapon I think. The prices on the gold AH for weapon actually went up today?!
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On June 21 2012 03:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:59 Phael wrote:On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted. Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit." This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...) You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book? It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it. Some people actually get gear with mf to play, so if this exploiting gives better results it needs to be fixed IMO. I mean, how to justify that people sacrifice some survivability and DPS to have 100 extra MF, and other exploit swapping for final blow, playing with full DPS and survivability - with cheaper gear yet getting 200+ mf do you really consider 2x 10 click or something like that... do you honestly consider that 2x 10 click justification for much easier gameplay, cheaper gear and yet better results? IMO its honestly just abuse...
Firstly, you don't get better results with MF swap. Even if your MF is 100 lower than a full MF swap set, you will see equal or better. I get at least a quarter of my magical items from white mobs, and my MF suit obviously never affects those while people who roll in constant MF gear will have the bonus applied to them.
Secondly, as I mentioned previously, it's not the easiest thing in the world to successfully swap to a full MF suit, survive, and kill the boss. Pretty much everything one-shots you, you lose the lion's share of your damage and generally, your movement speed & attack speed bonuses as well so you steer like a pregnant whale.
Thirdly, due to the sheer killing power of your main gear, swapping to pure MF gear at the last second is hard to time. I'm attempting to swap when my target reaches half a million hp. Half. Why? Because if I fire off one last orb while venom hydra is ticking, I'm liable to straight up kill the boss if it crits. Half a mil is a fair number for a player with 0 survivability and low dps to whittle down. Not impossible, certainly, but definitely harder. Oh, and what about those mobs that die off screen, or those champ packs that have 2 mobs, or 4 mobs, or with illusion, any number of mobs that you have no idea which is the last one standing or not? Last night doing a full act3 clear, I screwed this up on at least a dozen packs where I accidentally killed the final monster without a switch to MF gear. This is unavoidable, unless you waste time constantly checking and scouting, after which you'll be equally as inefficient.
Finally, yes, there's the annoyance of having a third of your inventory on lockdown and having to click 20x per kill (you gotta put your gear back), then find health orbs or port to town to heal up.
So yeah, I consider all those disadvantages enough justification for the better (not extremely better, just better) performance of the MF gear swap. It's like marines in sc2 - if you can stutter step kite with a dozen marines against a dozen zealots(more annoyance, more effort), you'll get better results than attack moving with two dozen marines (more expensive.)
Edit: Oh, and one last thing - as far as I can tell, constant MF is significantly better than MF swapping for legendary items. Speaking from personal experience, so biased and all that, but 99% of legendary gear is looted from white monsters. I've personally picked up about ten legendary pieces, all of which were off of white mobs, and my friends have similar results. While that is sort of pointless now, it'll be big when unique items are buffed.
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On June 21 2012 03:18 grs wrote:
Hmm...I made a big mistake selling my high IAS weapon I think. The prices on the gold AH for weapon actually went up today?!
IAS weapon went up as relatively due to DPS. 900 DPS one hander with IAS worth more now than 900 one hander with IAS before, but your old DPS one hander with IAS also just became 750 one hander with IAS, which is completely worthless.
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On June 21 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:59 Phael wrote:On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted. Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit." This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...) You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book? It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it. Some people actually get gear with mf to play, so if this exploiting gives better results it needs to be fixed IMO. I mean, how to justify that people sacrifice some survivability and DPS to have 100 extra MF, and other exploit swapping for final blow, playing with full DPS and survivability - with cheaper gear yet getting 200+ mf do you really consider 2x 10 click or something like that... do you honestly consider that 2x 10 click justification for much easier gameplay, cheaper gear and yet better results? IMO its honestly just abuse... Firstly, you don't get better results with MF swap. Even if your MF is 100 lower than a full MF swap set, you will see equal or better. I get at least a quarter of my magical items from white mobs, and my MF suit obviously never affect those while people who roll in constant MF gear will have their bonus applied to them. Secondly, as I mentioned previously, it's not the easiest thing in the world to successfully swap to a full MF suit, survive, and kill the boss. Pretty much everything one-shots you, you lose the lion's share of your damage and generally, your movement speed & attack speed bonuses as well so you steer like a pregnant whale. Thirdly, due to the sheer killing power of your main gear, swapping to pure MF gear at the last second is hard to time. I'm attempting to swap when my target reaches half a million hp. Half. Why? Because if I fire off one last orb while venom hydra is ticking, I'm liable to straight up kill the boss if it crits. Half a mil is a fair number for a player with 0 survivability and low dps to whittle down. Not impossible, certainly, but definitely harder. Oh, and what about those mobs that die off screen, or those champ packs that have 2 mobs, or 4 mobs, or with illusion, any number of mobs that you have no idea which is the last one standing or not? Last night doing a full act3 clear, I screwed this up on at least a dozen packs where I accidentally killed the final monster without a switch to MF gear. This is unavoidable, unless you waste time constantly checking and scouting, after which you'll be equally as inefficient. Finally, yes, there's the annoyance of having a third of your inventory on lockdown and having to click 20x per kill (you gotta put your gear back), then find health orbs or port to town to heal up. So yeah, I consider all those disadvantages enough justification for the better (not extremely better, just better) performance of the MF gear swap. It's like marines in sc2 - if you can stutter step kite with a dozen marines against a dozen zealots(more annoyance, more effort), you'll get better results than attack moving with two dozen marines (more expensive.)
If you can stack MF while maintaining dps/survivability, then good for you. If 3/4 of your drops come from elites. switching mf will increase the amount of rares dropped by 200++%.
With practice, it's not too difficult to swap to MF gear. You can also have a follower to distract the elite/dps it down after swapping. Swapping against illusionists shouldn't be a problem. If you have good AoE (which you do), the illusions pop very quickly, leaving behind the real ones. When you're left with 1-2 elites, it should be really easy to spot the real ones. Against uniques + minions, you should naturally be killing the minions (unless you have perfect casting accuracy and the minions don't block your shots). Also killing the minions first makes kiting a lot easier.
Edit to your edit: all but one of my legendaries came from breakable objects.. which don't drop items anymore.
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On June 21 2012 03:26 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:18 grs wrote:
Hmm...I made a big mistake selling my high IAS weapon I think. The prices on the gold AH for weapon actually went up today?! IAS weapon went up as relatively due to DPS. 900 DPS one hander with IAS worth more now than 900 one hander with IAS before, but your old DPS one hander with IAS also just became 750 one hander with IAS, which is completely worthless.
Yes, I think that is what happened...
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On June 21 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:59 Phael wrote:On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted. Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit." This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...) You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book? It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it. Some people actually get gear with mf to play, so if this exploiting gives better results it needs to be fixed IMO. I mean, how to justify that people sacrifice some survivability and DPS to have 100 extra MF, and other exploit swapping for final blow, playing with full DPS and survivability - with cheaper gear yet getting 200+ mf do you really consider 2x 10 click or something like that... do you honestly consider that 2x 10 click justification for much easier gameplay, cheaper gear and yet better results? IMO its honestly just abuse... Firstly, you don't get better results with MF swap. Even if your MF is 100 lower than a full MF swap set, you will see equal or better. I get at least a quarter of my magical items from white mobs, and my MF suit obviously never affect those while people who roll in constant MF gear will have their bonus applied to them. Secondly, as I mentioned previously, it's not the easiest thing in the world to successfully swap to a full MF suit, survive, and kill the boss. Pretty much everything one-shots you, you lose the lion's share of your damage and generally, your movement speed & attack speed bonuses as well so you steer like a pregnant whale. Thirdly, due to the sheer killing power of your main gear, swapping to pure MF gear at the last second is hard to time. I'm attempting to swap when my target reaches half a million hp. Half. Why? Because if I fire off one last orb while venom hydra is ticking, I'm liable to straight up kill the boss if it crits. Half a mil is a fair number for a player with 0 survivability and low dps to whittle down. Not impossible, certainly, but definitely harder. Oh, and what about those mobs that die off screen, or those champ packs that have 2 mobs, or 4 mobs, or with illusion, any number of mobs that you have no idea which is the last one standing or not? Last night doing a full act3 clear, I screwed this up on at least a dozen packs where I accidentally killed the final monster without a switch to MF gear. This is unavoidable, unless you waste time constantly checking and scouting, after which you'll be equally as inefficient. Finally, yes, there's the annoyance of having a third of your inventory on lockdown and having to click 20x per kill (you gotta put your gear back), then find health orbs or port to town to heal up. So yeah, I consider all those disadvantages enough justification for the better (not extremely better, just better) performance of the MF gear swap. It's like marines in sc2 - if you can stutter step kite with a dozen marines against a dozen zealots(more annoyance, more effort), you'll get better results than attack moving with two dozen marines (more expensive.)
Those are not disadvantages, those are side-effect you deliberately choose by doing something you are not supposed to do during combat.
Thats same as logic as saying that if during box match one of boxer decides to dance for 2 second, he has right to pick knife after that... seriously.
And please stop pretending like openning inventory and 5-10 fast clicks takes more than 2 sec - you can pretend all you want but at the end all you saying is that you paid less, kill faster, die less yet you have right to arbitrary decide that you deserve more.
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/shrug, feel free to get an MF set and try it out then. Grass is greener and all that. Having tried both ways (constant MF and MF swap), I feel that the MF swap is slightly superior, but not by an overwhelming margin.
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On June 21 2012 03:44 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:20 Phael wrote:On June 21 2012 03:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:59 Phael wrote:On June 21 2012 02:50 Sek-Kuar wrote:On June 21 2012 02:40 ZasZ. wrote:On June 21 2012 02:34 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its sad that people can switch gear before kill... They should made it like with skills so if u swap item outside of town there is cooldown before you can actually use it - swap whole gear and you are 30 sec naked or something like that. Or just make it so that switching gear resets NV. I see no reason why you should be able to switch mid fight, and at the point where you are farming A3 Inferno you don't get enough upgrades for it to be a major inconvenience to have to wait until the end of your session to switch gear around. Too harsh IMO as it is even easier to missclick and change something that missclick and drag something on skill bar with elective mode on, which also resets NV. But there should deinitelly be some penalty for this I rly doubt Blizzard wanted people to fight with 1 gear and kill with MF. Thats just abuse and it should be completely restricted. Plenty of ways around it, but lets be honest here, there's always going to be some cheesy strategy or mechanic power-gamers will "exploit." This one is fairly tame - have you tried killing a vamp boss in full MF gear? (not to mention the now higher repair costs ...) You'll also be hurting "legitimate" gear swapping - for example, I switch to a 1400 life on hit staff when I go up against reflect damage mobs. Does that count as cheating in your book? It's pretty simple, to me, if someone puts in the time and effort required to get themselves a suit of MF gear that can actually land finishing blows on bosses without dying, AND deal with an inventory that just got a third of it perma-locked, plus the annoyance of clicking 24 times per elite pack, then you know what, they deserve to get something out of it. Some people actually get gear with mf to play, so if this exploiting gives better results it needs to be fixed IMO. I mean, how to justify that people sacrifice some survivability and DPS to have 100 extra MF, and other exploit swapping for final blow, playing with full DPS and survivability - with cheaper gear yet getting 200+ mf do you really consider 2x 10 click or something like that... do you honestly consider that 2x 10 click justification for much easier gameplay, cheaper gear and yet better results? IMO its honestly just abuse... Firstly, you don't get better results with MF swap. Even if your MF is 100 lower than a full MF swap set, you will see equal or better. I get at least a quarter of my magical items from white mobs, and my MF suit obviously never affect those while people who roll in constant MF gear will have their bonus applied to them. Secondly, as I mentioned previously, it's not the easiest thing in the world to successfully swap to a full MF suit, survive, and kill the boss. Pretty much everything one-shots you, you lose the lion's share of your damage and generally, your movement speed & attack speed bonuses as well so you steer like a pregnant whale. Thirdly, due to the sheer killing power of your main gear, swapping to pure MF gear at the last second is hard to time. I'm attempting to swap when my target reaches half a million hp. Half. Why? Because if I fire off one last orb while venom hydra is ticking, I'm liable to straight up kill the boss if it crits. Half a mil is a fair number for a player with 0 survivability and low dps to whittle down. Not impossible, certainly, but definitely harder. Oh, and what about those mobs that die off screen, or those champ packs that have 2 mobs, or 4 mobs, or with illusion, any number of mobs that you have no idea which is the last one standing or not? Last night doing a full act3 clear, I screwed this up on at least a dozen packs where I accidentally killed the final monster without a switch to MF gear. This is unavoidable, unless you waste time constantly checking and scouting, after which you'll be equally as inefficient. Finally, yes, there's the annoyance of having a third of your inventory on lockdown and having to click 20x per kill (you gotta put your gear back), then find health orbs or port to town to heal up. So yeah, I consider all those disadvantages enough justification for the better (not extremely better, just better) performance of the MF gear swap. It's like marines in sc2 - if you can stutter step kite with a dozen marines against a dozen zealots(more annoyance, more effort), you'll get better results than attack moving with two dozen marines (more expensive.) Those are not disadvantages, those are side-effect you deliberately choose by doing something you are not supposed to do during combat. Thats same as logic as saying that if during box match one of boxer decides to dance for 2 second, he has right to pick knife after that... seriously. And please stop pretending like openning inventory and 5-10 fast clicks takes more than 2 sec - you can pretend all you want but at the end all you saying is that you paid less, kill faster, die less yet you have right to arbitrary decide that you deserve more.
I don't know what's your point. He's saying that switching to mf is riskier and not particularly efficient, while you decided to re-characterize it as a side effect and spat out the same arguments in an abridged form.
And please stop with the bad analogies.. too many bad analogies are hurting my brain.
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On June 21 2012 03:47 Phael wrote:
/shrug, feel free to get an MF set and try it out then. Grass is greener and all that. Having tried both ways (constant MF and MF swap), I feel that the MF swap is slightly superior, but not by an overwhelming margin.
It's been good for me so far. I've gotten a lot more items from MF-swapping compared to the times when I didn't do it.
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Oh, I meant MF swapping and rolling with constant MF are both superior to having none (obviously), it's just a matter of which path is better. Constant MF gives reliability and convenience, while MF swapping is more of a bigger risk and effort/bigger reward thing.
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On June 21 2012 03:47 Phael wrote:
/shrug, feel free to get an MF set and try it out then. Grass is greener and all that. Having tried both ways (constant MF and MF swap), I feel that the MF swap is slightly superior, but not by an overwhelming margin.
"overwhelming margin" is what matters, because pure DPS/survivability gear good enough for A3 inferno can be bought for lets say 7m, decent mf setup is pretty minor thing, while less DPS/survivability gear with extra MF can cost 20+m.
So maybe its not better like 3 time and you only kill 20%+ faster and have 20%+ higher survivability (afterall even just that ametyst vs topaz in helm adds shitloads of HP), with 2x higher mf, but at the same time you paid not even 1/3...
Kinda destroys any meaning of progress in game if you can exploit something to get better results with so much cheaper gear and so much less effort.
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On June 21 2012 03:58 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:47 Phael wrote:
/shrug, feel free to get an MF set and try it out then. Grass is greener and all that. Having tried both ways (constant MF and MF swap), I feel that the MF swap is slightly superior, but not by an overwhelming margin. "overwhelming margin" is what matters, because pure DPS/survivability gear good enough for A3 inferno can be bought for lets say 7m, decent mf setup is pretty minor thing, while less DPS/survivability gear with extra MF can cost 20+m. So maybe its not better like 3 time and you only kill 20%+ faster and have 20%+ higher survivability (afterall even just that ametyst vs topaz in helm adds shitloads of HP), with 2x higher mf, but at the same time you paid not even 1/3... Kinda destroys any meaning of progress in game if you can exploit something to get better results with so much cheaper gear and so much less effort.
You know what's REALLY destroy the progress in game? Borrow 20 mil friend, start farming A3 2nd day of starting and pay him back in a week. Too bad can't ban that.
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On June 21 2012 03:56 Phael wrote:
Oh, I meant MF swapping and rolling with constant MF are both superior to having none (obviously), it's just a matter of which path is better. Constant MF gives reliability and convenience, while MF swapping is more of a bigger risk and effort/bigger reward thing.
Well, most people can't afford good gear with high MF. I guess it depends on what basal level of MF you want: is it 50% (easy to attain without much effort) or closer to 200%?
I guess if you want the best of both worlds, just swap the amulet and helm. You can get 80-90 mf based on these two items alone.
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On June 21 2012 04:06 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 03:56 Phael wrote:
Oh, I meant MF swapping and rolling with constant MF are both superior to having none (obviously), it's just a matter of which path is better. Constant MF gives reliability and convenience, while MF swapping is more of a bigger risk and effort/bigger reward thing. Well, most people can't afford good gear with high MF. I guess it depends on what basal level of MF you want: is it 50% (easy to attain without much effort) or closer to 200%? I guess if you want the best of both worlds, just swap the amulet and helm. You can get 80-90 mf based on these two items alone.
Or maybe if they cant affor good mf gear they should go farm on hell with worse mf gear or play without mf gear?
What do you want from this game? If you cant affor gear to finish inferno, just type godlike mode cheat and kill everything?
Why do you propose different standards for mfruns and game progress?
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On June 21 2012 04:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 04:06 Heh_ wrote:On June 21 2012 03:56 Phael wrote:
Oh, I meant MF swapping and rolling with constant MF are both superior to having none (obviously), it's just a matter of which path is better. Constant MF gives reliability and convenience, while MF swapping is more of a bigger risk and effort/bigger reward thing. Well, most people can't afford good gear with high MF. I guess it depends on what basal level of MF you want: is it 50% (easy to attain without much effort) or closer to 200%? I guess if you want the best of both worlds, just swap the amulet and helm. You can get 80-90 mf based on these two items alone. Or maybe if they cant affor good mf gear they should go farm on hell with worse mf gear or play without mf gear? What do you want from this game? If you cant affor gear to finish inferno, just type godlike mode cheat and kill everything? Why do you propose different standards for mfruns and game progress?
I really have no idea what you're harping about. It seems to me that you're complaining for the sake of complaining.
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EPT
