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United States47024 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:43 BrauL wrote:
Holy. More crappy information. After 700 resist the % reduced is lessened per point. That's why it's not worth it to sacrifice STR for resists past 700-800. It's pretty damn simple guys, dps is all important. If you can't kill anything you can't move on. Think of it this way: the faster you kill something the less damage dealt to you, you could see this as bonus armor or HP - that's why STR is a ton more important than a lot of barbs in this thread seems to think.
No, it doesn't. The damage reduction formula is Resistance / (Resistance + (5 * mLvl)). It doesn't magically change after 700 resist. This creates the perception of diminishing returns because the damage reduction % is decreasing. However, higher damage reduction % has higher value than lower damage reduction %. To use an example: going from 0%->50% damage reduction doubles your EHP. Going from 50%->75% APPEARS to be less of a damage reduction % gain, but in both cases, your EHP is doubling. As others said before, EHP scales LINEARLY with the product of the various forms of mitigation.
It IS true that there's diminishing returns on getting more resists, but it's from a different perspective: pure EHP is a meaningless stat for us. In an ideal world, we would just get gear that has perfect rolls on everything. But in reality, we are weighing the cost of buying new gear that upgrades certain stats in comparison to other stats--it's EHP PER GOLD that we care about. This is where the "diminishing returns" on resists hits at about 700 resist--it's very easy to get small amounts of resist on different pieces of gear, but once you've gotten a reasonable amount on everything, the cost of upgrading resists increases astronomically. Getting 60 resist all gear costs WAY more than the same piece with 30 resist all--so even though the EHP scaling is linear, the EHP/gold scaling isn't.
The same sort of superlinear EHP/gold scaling applies to other defensive stats as well, but from my experience, it's most aggressive with resists. It's way easier to find good deals on stuff with high Vit or Str than it is to find stuff that has high resists.
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So is the thing about the elemental dmg true or not?
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United States47024 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:22 Lemonerer wrote:
So is the thing about the elemental dmg true or not?
From my testing, elemental damage is multiplied by Strength and multiplied into skills properly.
On June 09 2012 05:52 TheYango wrote:
Further testing. I compared my normal autoattack damage to HotA+Smash hits. If weapon elemental damage isn't multiplied, you would expect to see an enormous disparity between the supposed 270% damage of HotA+Smash, and the actual damage dealt by the skill, because the elemental damage portion wouldn't be getting multiplied.
My autoattack hits were ~6k-8k. HotA smash hits were ~16k-20k. Again, more than half my weapon damage is elemental damage. If the elemental damage is not multiplied, HotA should only be hitting for 12k-ish.
So yes, elemental damage IS multiplied by skills.
EDIT: The elemental damage is also definitely multiplied by Strength. I have 1105 Strength, and my weapon does 433-835 damage a hit, with 283-557 of that being Lightning damage. If the Lightning damage weren't multiplied, my auto hits would only do a measly 2k-4k damage.
If someone else wants to prove/disprove this, feel free.
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On June 09 2012 08:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:22 Lemonerer wrote:
So is the thing about the elemental dmg true or not? From my testing, elemental damage is multiplied by Strength and multiplied into skills properly. Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 05:52 TheYango wrote:
Further testing. I compared my normal autoattack damage to HotA+Smash hits. If weapon elemental damage isn't multiplied, you would expect to see an enormous disparity between the supposed 270% damage of HotA+Smash, and the actual damage dealt by the skill, because the elemental damage portion wouldn't be getting multiplied.
My autoattack hits were ~6k-8k. HotA smash hits were ~16k-20k. Again, more than half my weapon damage is elemental damage. If the elemental damage is not multiplied, HotA should only be hitting for 12k-ish.
So yes, elemental damage IS multiplied by skills.
EDIT: The elemental damage is also definitely multiplied by Strength. I have 1105 Strength, and my weapon does 433-835 damage a hit, with 283-557 of that being Lightning damage. If the Lightning damage weren't multiplied, my auto hits would only do a measly 2k-4k damage. If someone else wants to prove/disprove this, feel free.
Thanks to Yango for testing this. Also, I'm sorry if I used diminishing returns wrong. What I mean is stat allocation on items is a precious commodity, once you're at ~75% resist all, increasing your resistance is less important than increasing dps. The other nice thing about increasing dps through strength is you still increase armor, while armor itself doesn't scale up as quickly as resist, it's still a nice bonus. Ideally, and maybe someday, we will have gear that will allow 1200-1300 resist all while maintaining a high dps, only time/item limits will tell. Sorry for confusion.
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Damn Yango, I don't know how you know all the math behind the game already but it is supper impressive  .
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United States47024 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:32 crms wrote:
Thanks to Yango for testing this. Also, I'm sorry if I used diminishing returns wrong. What I mean is stat allocation on items is a precious commodity, once you're at ~75% resist all, increasing your resistance is less important than increasing dps. The other nice thing about increasing dps through strength is you still increase armor, while armor itself doesn't scale up as quickly as resist, it's still a nice bonus. Ideally, and maybe someday, we will have gear that will allow 1200-1300 resist all while maintaining a high dps, only time/item limits will tell. Sorry for confusion.
The most any item can roll on All Resistance is 80. There are 12 non-Weapon slots on which to roll All Resistance (weapons can roll individual resistances, but not All Resist). If you rolled perfectly on everything, you would have 960 All Resist. To get higher than that, you need to be benefiting from set bonuses (good luck getting 2x Immortal King that BOTH got perfect-rolled ResAll as random props), or be trying to balance individual elemental resists evenly (hard to get good deals when that last armor piece HAS to have lightning resist).
720 Resist All corresponds to having 60 Resist All in every slot you can, which is why its a sensible breakpoint. Beyond that, trying to squeeze out near-perfect rolls makes your gear costs astronomically high (getting perfect ResAll rolls on gear while also having high stats in other areas is insanely expensive).
Note: I'm not sure how Legendaries with Resist All as a fixed property interacts with the possibility of rolling more Resist All as a random property. If having Resist All as a fixed property doesn't rule out rolling more randomly, the maximum reasonable All Resist might be a bit higher.
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On June 09 2012 07:43 BrauL wrote:
Holy. More crappy information. After 700 resist the % reduced is lessened per point. That's why it's not worth it to sacrifice STR for resists past 700-800. It's pretty damn simple guys, dps is all important. If you can't kill anything you can't move on. Think of it this way: the faster you kill something the less damage dealt to you, you could see this as bonus armor or HP - that's why STR is a ton more important than a lot of barbs in this thread seems to think.
source?
On June 09 2012 08:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:32 crms wrote:
Thanks to Yango for testing this. Also, I'm sorry if I used diminishing returns wrong. What I mean is stat allocation on items is a precious commodity, once you're at ~75% resist all, increasing your resistance is less important than increasing dps. The other nice thing about increasing dps through strength is you still increase armor, while armor itself doesn't scale up as quickly as resist, it's still a nice bonus. Ideally, and maybe someday, we will have gear that will allow 1200-1300 resist all while maintaining a high dps, only time/item limits will tell. Sorry for confusion. 720 Resist All corresponds to having 60 Resist All in every slot you can, which is why its a sensible breakpoint. Beyond that, trying to squeeze out near-perfect rolls makes your gear costs astronomically high (getting perfect ResAll rolls on gear while also having high stats in other areas is insanely expensive).
getting above 75% perfect in any stat makes things start to get expensive.
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Is a Sacred Shield with high block % really that good? Getting one for cheap means that I'll have to sacrifice like 50 resist and 100 armor. Is that really worth it?
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On June 09 2012 08:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:32 crms wrote:
Thanks to Yango for testing this. Also, I'm sorry if I used diminishing returns wrong. What I mean is stat allocation on items is a precious commodity, once you're at ~75% resist all, increasing your resistance is less important than increasing dps. The other nice thing about increasing dps through strength is you still increase armor, while armor itself doesn't scale up as quickly as resist, it's still a nice bonus. Ideally, and maybe someday, we will have gear that will allow 1200-1300 resist all while maintaining a high dps, only time/item limits will tell. Sorry for confusion. The most any item can roll on All Resistance is 80. There are 12 non-Weapon slots on which to roll All Resistance (weapons can roll individual resistances, but not All Resist). If you rolled perfectly on everything, you would have 960 All Resist. To get higher than that, you need to be benefiting from set bonuses (good luck getting 2x Immortal King that BOTH got perfect-rolled ResAll as random props), or be trying to balance individual elemental resists evenly (hard to get good deals when that last armor piece HAS to have lightning resist). 720 Resist All corresponds to having 60 Resist All in every slot you can, which is why its a sensible breakpoint. Beyond that, trying to squeeze out near-perfect rolls makes your gear costs astronomically high (getting perfect ResAll rolls on gear while also having high stats in other areas is insanely expensive). Note: I'm not sure how Legendaries with Resist All as a fixed property interacts with the possibility of rolling more Resist All as a random property. If having Resist All as a fixed property doesn't rule out rolling more randomly, the maximum reasonable All Resist might be a bit higher.
Well, I'm assuming he meant with the shout, so you would "only" need around 800 resists unbuffed. 960 resists unbuffed would mean 1440 res all buffed, quite a lot.
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Ok I think you guys are going overboard with the anti vitality thing.
Vitality is super great, don't bash it and say it's awful, it's actually pretty important.
The more vitality you have the more armor you have with nerves of steel, pay attention to this when upgrading/changing pieces, some people ignore this.
2 of your abilities if you choose to use revenge, and dash with heal, scale directly by your vitality. 8% of 60k is a lot more than 8% of 35 or 40k.
This doesn't mean that vitality is way more important than everything else, it's just that you shouldn't just all of a sudden think it's awful either, and yah damage is important, im at act 3 where I barely tickle people saving up for better weapon now, however, i stomp act 2 pretty easily, so its not like my build is awful.
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On June 09 2012 09:48 BlueBird. wrote:
Ok I think you guys are going overboard with the anti vitality thing.
Vitality is super great, don't bash it and say it's awful, it's actually pretty important.
The more vitality you have the more armor you have with nerves of steel, pay attention to this when upgrading/changing pieces, some people ignore this.
2 of your abilities if you choose to use revenge, and dash with heal, scale directly by your vitality. 8% of 60k is a lot more than 8% of 35 or 40k.
This doesn't mean that vitality is way more important than everything else, it's just that you shouldn't just all of a sudden think it's awful either, and yah damage is important, im at act 3 where I barely tickle people saving up for better weapon now, however, i stomp act 2 pretty easily, so its not like my build is awful.
I agree with you Vit is important there just other stats that I prioritize more then Vit.
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Sorry about the over 700 resist diminishing returns thing, was told by a reliable (or so i thought) source. Thanks for debunking that one. Also, i'm not a vit hater, but over 50k HP is not neccessary for the difficulty level of this game at all. 40k with good mitigation is all you need to farm act 3+ comfortably. Vit is important IF you don't have enough. After that it is almost useless if you are sacrificing other stats for it. That's all I was trying to say.
In other words, STR>VIT/RESIST ONCE YOU HAVE ENOUGH. Damn.
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If anyone can help out here, me (Barbarian) and my DH friend are in a really big debate on the effectiveness of IAS (attack speed) on weapons (not IAS on other gears).
His stance is that IAS on weapons is straight up bad and inflates the DPS output (of the weapon).
My stance is that while IAS does to some degree inflate DPS. I don't think it's straight up bad.
From my experience, when looking at weapons, you always have to consider the base damage of the item i.e. 800-1000 damage with 1.23 IAS or something like 1000-1200 damage with 1.0 IAS.
If you're going by sustained DPS and with something perhaps like proc on hit things i.e. Life on Hit or Knockback, then the item with higher IAS but lower damage will help. If you're going to be kiting and doing damage in bursts i.e. kiting, then items with the higher weapon damage will trump.
While we agree on some points, he is adamant that IAS on weapons are BAD.
Can anyone shed some light on the IAS on weapons mechanic or if there is some inherent difference between how it affects Barbarians and DH differently?
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As a barb I dont think theres much to argue about,
IAS directly increases life on hit which is already crazy good and will help you alot.
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On June 09 2012 10:08 BrauL wrote:
Sorry about the over 700 resist diminishing returns thing, was told by a reliable (or so i thought) source. Thanks for debunking that one. Also, i'm not a vit hater, but over 50k HP is not neccessary for the difficulty level of this game at all. 40k with good mitigation is all you need to farm act 3+ comfortably. Vit is important IF you don't have enough. After that it is almost useless if you are sacrificing other stats for it. That's all I was trying to say.
In other words, STR>VIT/RESIST ONCE YOU HAVE ENOUGH. Damn.
whats considered enough?
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I would say 750-800 range is enough with 45k hp .. if you aren't progressing with that amount, it's not that you need more but you need to kill faster.
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Apparently tyrael has been nerfed to only hitting for 1-2k. Wonder how big of an impact that will have on some barbs who have gone purely defensive, relying on him to do the dmg.
I myself think its a good change, now people cant neglect their dps as much.
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Just want to say I bought a new Shield and used a different skill settings. It worked like a charm. Thanks to the people that helped me. I feel I can complete act 2 soon =)
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United States47024 Posts
With all the nerfs, I think we're fortunate that only Barbs are farming Iskatu, so they haven't hotfixed him.
Maybe that's why--Blizzard thinks we need the help.
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On June 09 2012 22:50 TheYango wrote:
With all the nerfs, I think we're fortunate that only Barbs are farming Iskatu, so they haven't hotfixed him.
Maybe that's why--Blizzard thinks we need the help.
What's so good about iskatu? With exploding palm (the fire rune for chain reaction) backlash concussive wave cyclone builds monk can do it almost as well but it's tedious work, and most of your gold will come from quest gold. Are you selling a decent portion of the blues you get? I always hate blues because personally I never buy them there are always better rares but it's not true for other classes so maybe I should think about farming him more.
Although I can just do azomodan runs so they might be more efficient after all.
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EPT
