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On May 30 2012 06:49 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:24 Swissm wrote:
If you have a mainhand with 500-700 dmg and an offhand with 100-300 that should be strictly superior to a 2h with 600-1000 dmg due to attack speed, or does spell damage ONLY count for your mainhand weapon dmg? It would be strictly inferior even though for most spells they will do the same damage. However, for one-shot spells like arcane orb or meteor that cost power, they do less damage for the same arcane power (but cast faster - whee!) The only advantage (if it even works that way) in a faster weapon is arcane dynamo procs, which don't even work on hydra, the biggest damaging attack we can do.
What? He's talking about damage/per attack not dps (I assume based on how it's worded). The problem is that's not a realistic comparison since you can't even find a 1 handed weapon with close to the same DPS as a 2 hander, much less close to the same damage per attack at the same price point.
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On May 30 2012 05:34 Phael wrote:
To the guy with 1.5 mil - buy a blue with 1100+ dps, slow as you can get. Other stats don't matter. If you're lucky, get a rare with + int. 1 int is just ever so slightly better than 1 dps.
To the guy above - don't use channeled spells solo. You're just asking to die. Use things that allow you to hit and run - arcane orb is a great spell.
The only thing I'd say regarding this, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure nm/hell/inferno mobs have resists against elemental attacks. Getting a weapon with +x-xx damage is better than a weapon with +x-xx fire damage is it not? I have been going for pure damage weapons without elemental damage modifiers.
I may be wrong, I dunno.
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On May 30 2012 06:49 Phael wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:24 Swissm wrote:
If you have a mainhand with 500-700 dmg and an offhand with 100-300 that should be strictly superior to a 2h with 600-1000 dmg due to attack speed, or does spell damage ONLY count for your mainhand weapon dmg? It would be strictly inferior even though for most spells they will do the same damage. However, for one-shot spells like arcane orb or meteor that cost power, they do less damage for the same arcane power (but cast faster - whee!) The only advantage (if it even works that way) in a faster weapon is arcane dynamo procs, which don't even work on hydra, the biggest damaging attack we can do.
Except then you have stupid slow weapon and have to gear for attack speed. If you get a 1 hander you can skip the attack speed, get crit/crit damage or just plain outright more intelligence. You can get like 50 more int and vitality on your rings each as well as on your amulet.
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The thing is, attack speed is far more plentiful and prevalent on items compared to crit. You can get 4% crit on a ring, compared to 15% attack speed, etc.
You don't sacrifice int going for attack speed, even on blues (int is postfix and speed is prefix).
If you want numbers, currently 1 int gives me 24 char sheet damage, 1 crit gives me 130 char sheet damage, and 1 attack speed gives me ~235 char sheet damage. Attack speed is king.
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On May 30 2012 07:05 Phael wrote:
The thing is, attack speed is far more plentiful and prevalent on items compared to crit. You can get 4% crit on a ring, compared to 15% attack speed, etc.
You don't sacrifice int going for attack speed, even on blues (int is postfix and speed is prefix).
If you want numbers, currently 1 int gives me 24 char sheet damage, 1 crit gives me 130 char sheet damage, and 1 attack speed gives me ~235 char sheet damage. Attack speed is king.
Except you're missing the entire point of crit and crit damage. They work off each other and increase exponentially the more you get. Once you reach 25% crit chance then 50% crit dmg becomes 12.5% more, except without the diminishing returns on arcane power. You can't just compare one item to another until you get the full shabang. I'd like to make an example of my gloves. 7% crit at 199% crit damage is upwards of 21% more damage. Can attack speed go up that high?
Also, it's not more prevalent, it's just popular, but 15% ias rares are much more expensive than crit or crit dmg rares.
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This is not a game of this or that, it is perfectly possible to get all the stats you want on an item.
The best rares have 6 affixes, you can spend them on:
Int
Vit
Speed
Crit
Crit damage
All resists
If you have enough gold to obtain a 25% crit rate with +199% crit damage, you could easily have spent the money on different items with attack speed with small splashes of crit/crit damage that would increase your overall dps more.
Small pet peeve: why do people use "exponential"to the exclusion of all other adjectives? Apparently it's either linear, or exponential, and nothing in between. In this case, crit and crit damage scale quadratic-ly
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Lol is that a joke? Do you even know how much that would cost? Those gloves alone would cost more than my entire gear combined. Yes, you can get "small splashes" for about a 2-4 million a piece. You could get maybe attack speed and crit for 1 mill, but then you'd lose vitality, intelligence, and all resist for it. This is why I'm talking AFFIX FOR AFFIX
If you want to amp it up to 2 affixes per slot, then crit wins by a landslide, it's not even fair.
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On May 30 2012 07:20 Phael wrote:
This is not a game of this or that, it is perfectly possible to get all the stats you want on an item.
The best rares have 6 affixes, you can spend them on:
Int
Vit
Speed
Crit
Crit damage
All resists
If you have enough gold to obtain a 25% crit rate with +199% crit damage, you could easily have spent the money on different items with attack speed with small splashes of crit/crit damage that would increase your overall dps more.
Small pet peeve: why do people use "exponential"to the exclusion of all other adjectives? Apparently it's either linear, or exponential, and nothing in between. In this case, crit and crit damage scale quadratic-ly
Once you get the really upper end ranges of gear you should not rely on the character screen's calc of DPS any longer. Atk spd appears on the char screen to add a lot to DPS but it is overvalued when you factor the mechanics arcane power and spell damage. It's much better to choose your build and optimize gear for that build, rather than just looking at how an item affects your char screen's dps.
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Itsmedudeman: Do you run AP return on crit gear? I'm interested in your approach but I'm not sure I want to spend a bunch of money testing it out. It certainly seems like a really good gear set with +crit/crit damage/AP on crit could be good but I have no idea what gear level you need for it to be worth it.
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On May 30 2012 07:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Lol is that a joke? Do you even know how much that would cost? Those gloves alone would cost more than my entire gear combined. Yes, you can get "small splashes" for about a 2-4 million a piece. You could get maybe attack speed and crit for 1 mill, but then you'd lose vitality, intelligence, and all resist for it.
His point is that it isn't necessarily a game of pick or choose, its about looking for everything, achieving the proper balance. Yes in the AH it would be lol expensive, but the point is to not sacrifice stats for other stats, unless the other stats outweigh what is lost.
This is why we have so many with ridiculous vit / resist stats, but they aren't any good if you can't do damage.
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On May 30 2012 07:27 diophan wrote:
Itsmedudeman: Do you run AP return on crit gear? I'm interested in your approach but I'm not sure I want to spend a bunch of money testing it out. It certainly seems like a really good gear set with +crit/crit damage/AP on crit could be good but I have no idea what gear level you need for it to be worth it.
Sadly this would cost too much. Most important foremost is damage and crit on your offhand. Getting arcane return on crit would triple the price of that item. But once I'm willing to spend more gold I'll be looing for it. My weapon 800 DPS weapon has 89% crit dmg btw, and it beat out my 844 DPS with 45% crit dmg (socketed) by 2k DPS.
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Well, the original issue was slow weapon or fast weapon. You're arguing that getting a slow weapon sucks because then you have to get attack speed everywhere.
My summarized argument: since attack speed is (one of) the best ways to get your dps up anyway, it's not the end of the world having it (and most can agree that stacking speed is the best gearing strategy atm.)
You can fire off your arcane orbs that hit for 40k and crit for 120k a quarter of the time, but I'll just stick with my arcane orbs that hit for 60k even and crit once a while for 90-100k.
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I'll do some more math when I get home, but on rares the most you can get is 1.6x speed modifier. Then what? Stack the rest with crit I suppose on helm/bracers/weapon if possible. Now you're at around 1.75x modifiers total including attack speed and crit. I'm sitting at 1.9x. Then what? You start getting better gear and more affixes. If I start to get more crit and crit modifiers on my gear then that increase is far more than what you stand to gain by stacking crit after you stacked attack speed for your 2 hander. I can stand to get another 20% or so crit damage on my gloves, or start gearing for attack speed if I wanted more with crit on them as I'm actually slower than a 2 hander atm.
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On May 30 2012 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll do some more math when I get home, but on rares the most you can get is 1.6x speed modifier. Then what? Stack the rest with crit I suppose on helm/bracers/weapon if possible. Now you're at around 1.75x modifiers total including attack speed and crit. I'm sitting at 1.9x. Then what? You start getting better gear and more affixes. If I start to get more crit and crit modifiers on my gear then that increase is far more than what you stand to gain by stacking crit after you stacked attack speed for your 2 hander. I can stand to get another 20% or so crit damage on my gloves, or start gearing for attack speed if I wanted more with crit on them as I'm actually slower than a 2 hander atm.
IMO it is much better to avoid atk spd on your weapon since it is factored into the tooltips calculated dps, and since people price their weapons on AH by DPS and not base damage (which your spell damage is based off of), an equivalent DPS weapon with no atk spd will cost around the same but help your damage more. If you want atk spd it is better to get it from other slots (like gloves, jewelry). Crit dmg modifiers (and sockets to socket with crit dmg modifiers) I believe is more optimal to get in your weapon slot from a benefit/cost standpoint.
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On May 30 2012 07:55 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll do some more math when I get home, but on rares the most you can get is 1.6x speed modifier. Then what? Stack the rest with crit I suppose on helm/bracers/weapon if possible. Now you're at around 1.75x modifiers total including attack speed and crit. I'm sitting at 1.9x. Then what? You start getting better gear and more affixes. If I start to get more crit and crit modifiers on my gear then that increase is far more than what you stand to gain by stacking crit after you stacked attack speed for your 2 hander. I can stand to get another 20% or so crit damage on my gloves, or start gearing for attack speed if I wanted more with crit on them as I'm actually slower than a 2 hander atm. IMO it is much better to avoid atk spd on your weapon since it is factored into the tooltips calculated dps, and since people price their weapons on AH by DPS and not base damage (which your spell damage is based off of), an equivalent DPS weapon with no atk spd will cost around the same but help your damage more. If you want atk spd it is better to get it from other slots (like gloves, jewelry). Crit dmg modifiers (and sockets to socket with crit dmg modifiers) I believe is more optimal to get in your weapon slot from a benefit/cost standpoint.
Are we talking about 1 handers here? if so, I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. First of all, you lose a lot of stats when you look for attack speed on jewelry. On gloves, you lose upwards of 9% crit. When I do this build I don't really mind a fast weapon because the offhand gives it that much more DPS in total. If you have godly gear though, say 15% attack speed and crit modifiers, then I'd agree.
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Also, I'm gonna go test how much DPS a near 1300 DPS 2 hander would give me, as that's much more expensive than my main hand offhand. In around 2 hours or so -.-
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Im a little over half way through act 2 inferno and although I do like a challenge, I dont find kiting elite packs for 10+ minutes to be that fun. I was on vacation when this game came out so I missed out on all the exploits to get mass gold/gear in act 3/4 inferno. So i have the option of slugging out the rest of act 2 inferno with my shit gear or going back and farming gold until i can buy items off people that exploited the shit out of the game before the wiz/dh nerfs. the thought of that really makes me want to uninstall the game, but i will try to farm some gold for a bit. If anyone has info on some good gold farming spots please let me know.
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On May 30 2012 08:31 Trajan98 wrote:
Im a little over half way through act 2 inferno and although I do like a challenge, I dont find kiting elite packs for 10+ minutes to be that fun. I was on vacation when this game came out so I missed out on all the exploits to get mass gold/gear in act 3/4 inferno. So i have the option of slugging out the rest of act 2 inferno with my shit gear or going back and farming gold until i can buy items off people that exploited the shit out of the game before the wiz/dh nerfs. the thought of that really makes me want to uninstall the game, but i will try to farm some gold for a bit. If anyone has info on some good gold farming spots please let me know.
This is like literally the exact situation I'm in, except that I'm a bit behind you even (A1 Inferno). Feels kinda shitty, I'm probably just gonna have one of my friends either give me stuff or help me farm: basically leeching seems like the only way to "catch up" to everyone especially considering how overpriced items are on the AH, currently.
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On May 30 2012 07:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 07:55 Skyro wrote:On May 30 2012 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll do some more math when I get home, but on rares the most you can get is 1.6x speed modifier. Then what? Stack the rest with crit I suppose on helm/bracers/weapon if possible. Now you're at around 1.75x modifiers total including attack speed and crit. I'm sitting at 1.9x. Then what? You start getting better gear and more affixes. If I start to get more crit and crit modifiers on my gear then that increase is far more than what you stand to gain by stacking crit after you stacked attack speed for your 2 hander. I can stand to get another 20% or so crit damage on my gloves, or start gearing for attack speed if I wanted more with crit on them as I'm actually slower than a 2 hander atm. IMO it is much better to avoid atk spd on your weapon since it is factored into the tooltips calculated dps, and since people price their weapons on AH by DPS and not base damage (which your spell damage is based off of), an equivalent DPS weapon with no atk spd will cost around the same but help your damage more. If you want atk spd it is better to get it from other slots (like gloves, jewelry). Crit dmg modifiers (and sockets to socket with crit dmg modifiers) I believe is more optimal to get in your weapon slot from a benefit/cost standpoint. Are we talking about 1 handers here? if so, I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. First of all, you lose a lot of stats when you look for attack speed on jewelry. On gloves, you lose upwards of 9% crit. When I do this build I don't really mind a fast weapon because the offhand gives it that much more DPS in total. If you have godly gear though, say 15% attack speed and crit modifiers, then I'd agree.
IMO it's a good rule of thumb regardless if you are going 1h/oh or 2h. Another way to think about it is, the difference the +atk spd% modifier on a weapon makes on the tooltip dps of that weapon, you're basically paying a premium for on AH. If you want to pay that premium because you want to stack atk spd as high as possible or whatever, that's up to you, but just know you are paying a premium for it and IMO it's not worth it until people adjust the price of weapons they put up on AH.
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On May 30 2012 08:31 Trajan98 wrote:
Im a little over half way through act 2 inferno and although I do like a challenge, I dont find kiting elite packs for 10+ minutes to be that fun. I was on vacation when this game came out so I missed out on all the exploits to get mass gold/gear in act 3/4 inferno. So i have the option of slugging out the rest of act 2 inferno with my shit gear or going back and farming gold until i can buy items off people that exploited the shit out of the game before the wiz/dh nerfs. the thought of that really makes me want to uninstall the game, but i will try to farm some gold for a bit. If anyone has info on some good gold farming spots please let me know.
people being rewarded for their innovation until big brother comes in and regulates them. people complaining about the innovators after the fact. seems like real life economics to me. =)
im on act 2 inferno and it sucks. i just skip all the elite packs that are too hard with the thought that i will find the easy ones and kill them, and farm bosses, which are always easy. think outside the box my good sir.
oh, and other than my boots, all of my gear was found on the ground.
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EPT
