|
Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.)
|
On May 03 2012 23:16 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
It is a virtual impossibility that Diablo 3 won't be cleared within the first week. As I said, my prediction is within 4 days, but even that is probably a conservative guess. Do you realise they have entire tiers of armour for the different acts in Inferno? They are clearly going to make it some kind of cock block. You have no idea what you are talking about
We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about  I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info.
My argument on this: equipement. What will be the difference between the very first group of people hitting Inferno or the same group 1 year from now? Experience in playing, sure. But I can't imagine the monsters being that difficult to figure out. No, the biggest change I can imagine is equipement. Down the road we will have godly items, not some randomn crap that dropped in Inferno.
As far as I know, we haven't seen any godly equipement yet. Don't think Blizzard has released any clear examples. So it seems rather futile to make sweeping statements and personal attack on knowledge...
What does seem rather fun is making baseless guesses and theorycraft the crap out of this issue. Because it WILL be one of the things D3 will be scrutinized on, especially after the hyping Blizzard did themselves.
Personally could imagine it going either way at this point.
EDIT:
On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Show nested quote +Jay Wilson on Inferno:
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.)
The "We increased the combat depth by a factor of 2" statements bug me. I know factor 2, it means double. Like the damage of the mob was 100. Now it is 200. That's a factor 2. How DOES one increase a combat depth? Is that measured in meters, yards or ponies? It makes my marketing-sense tingle
How do you guys see that? An active increase in AI or a normal side-effect of making the monsters be more robust and heavier hitting?
|
The guy talking about how hard wow is at the bleeding edge sure 100% agree. At the very top it is difficult, and you're right most people have no idea cos only 1% ever really see it.
I would assume D3 can't be as difficult because you take away the need for coordination which cuts out quite a bit of the skill needed and I would imagine limits what they can do with the encounter design mechanics (could be wrong)
That isn't to say though that it will be breezed by the 1% a lot of the blue posts indicate to it being gear blocked. If done right it can stop even the most skilled people being able to do it in a short amount of time (spine heroic?)
Having said this though - there is still a lot of scope to design very challanging encounters mechanically that also require gear. I'm pretty sure the game will not be some 'casual' fest and the end of hell + inferno will be aimed at the top few %.
Blizzard also have no reason not to make inferno super hard, there is no subscription and they want people to buy items on the RMAH. Making faceroll content would be counterproductive.
I'm sure it will take even the very skilled people with a lot of free time more than 2-4 days to beat it. I would say somewhere from 6 days to 2 months. No way of really knowing till it comes out.
|
On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) The "We increased the combat depth by a factor of 2" statements bug me. I know factor 2, it means double. Like the damage of the mob was 100. Now it is 200. That's a factor 2. How DOES one increase a combat depth? Is that measured in meters, yards or ponies? It makes my marketing-sense tingle How do you guys see that? An active increase in AI or a normal side-effect of making the monsters be more robust and heavier hitting?
I imagine it like this:
Say you have a boss fight that requires you to do a certain action ever so often or in a precise time frame. Now to double that you either increase the number of times you have to successfully do that or half the time frame. Half timers for certain boss abilities. Whatever. There are a lot of knobs and buttons to press to make an encounter harder.
edit: typos
|
On May 03 2012 23:16 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
It is a virtual impossibility that Diablo 3 won't be cleared within the first week. As I said, my prediction is within 4 days, but even that is probably a conservative guess. Do you realise they have entire tiers of armour for the different acts in Inferno? They are clearly going to make it some kind of cockblock where you have to farm items a bit before you can survive. You have no idea what you are talking about or you are trolling
There are tiers of gear in WoW too. Most guilds spend months gearing up in the current tier's heroic gear before they even have a chance of beating it.
And then there are world first progression raiding guilds, who are able to clear heroic bosses in blues and greens in the first week of the expansion when it's not possible to get anything more than 1 raid lockout's worth of epic gear.
|
On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info.
What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic.
If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH.
I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using.
There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear.
The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat.
|
On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Show nested quote +Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.)
20 attempts lol...
It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill.
If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days.
|
On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days.
It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days.
If you can i'll be bitterly dissapointed.
|
Why do people care wether or not someone with all the time in the world has the ability to farm great gear and beat inferno 5 minutes after it is released? Isnt the only thing that REALLY matters how hard YOU the INDIVIDUAL find it?
|
On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat.
I agree with you. A "legit" clear in 4 days seems highly unlikely.
I think Bashiok even said that on their boards:
Can I totally go back on what I said before?
Ok, not totally, but I think there’s some distinction to be made for ‘legitimate’ ability to beat Inferno, in that, we expect there could be ways, potentially exploits, potentially clever but cheesy mechanics, that could maybe allow a player to complete Inferno fairly quickly. The bet stands as-is, but I think if it could be revised it would be “X time before it becomes farmable”, meaning someone can legitimately kill the end boss over and over and over without needing to take advantage of an exploit, or loophole, or some other thing we don’t intend to be possible.
Of course we’ll try to address any such issue as quickly as possible, but it’s feasible that the first Inferno clear will be through use of unintended means. Technically still valid per the wording of the bet, but I think most can agree would go against the spirit of it.
I was merely trying to show the irony of telling someone he has no idea what they're talking in this case It was foolish during the SC2 beta and there we had full information. In this case, we are quite blind.
EDIT:
On May 03 2012 23:45 Thallium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days. It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days.
I never played WoW, so all of this information is new to me. But I actually wonder: Do you guys think Blizzard will try to make D3 as difficult as the more difficult WoW raids? Because I honestly fdon't think so.
First, I think the global difficulty level of D3 will be a lot lower. MMORPG's have a different curve and lifespan than normal (A)RPG's.
And second, making a "difficult" instance seems "easier" in WoW. You can make it so that (guessing here) 12 people need to work together. Seems more difficult to make something for just 4. But that's my perception...
EDIT 1.2:
On May 03 2012 23:53 Thallium wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed a PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it. If diablo is completed quickly people will stop playing and then the RMAH is pointless and they wont make as much money
Hmmmm. Don't really agree. I would hardly describe Diablo 2 as "hard". And I still play it from time to time
EDIT 2:
On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
Are you talking about WoW? Because in D2, I feel they surely did. Remeber the endless Cow game / easy bloody foothills time? I feel they made Hell difficulty a lot more difficult during the patches...
|
On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat.
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is.
|
On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed a PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
They nerf wow so that people dont get stuck and quit which in turn loses them money from the subscription
If diablo is completed quickly people will stop playing and then the RMAH is pointless and they wont make as much money
It is two completely different concepts, just because blizzard dont buff content in wow only nerf it does not mean diablo will the same
|
On May 03 2012 23:49 NeoLearner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. I agree with you. A "legit" clear in 4 days seems highly unlikely. I think Bashiok even said that on their boards: Show nested quote +Can I totally go back on what I said before?
Ok, not totally, but I think there’s some distinction to be made for ‘legitimate’ ability to beat Inferno, in that, we expect there could be ways, potentially exploits, potentially clever but cheesy mechanics, that could maybe allow a player to complete Inferno fairly quickly. The bet stands as-is, but I think if it could be revised it would be “X time before it becomes farmable”, meaning someone can legitimately kill the end boss over and over and over without needing to take advantage of an exploit, or loophole, or some other thing we don’t intend to be possible.
Of course we’ll try to address any such issue as quickly as possible, but it’s feasible that the first Inferno clear will be through use of unintended means. Technically still valid per the wording of the bet, but I think most can agree would go against the spirit of it. I was merely trying to show the irony of telling someone he has no idea what they're talking in this case It was foolish during the SC2 beta and there we had full information. In this case, we are quite blind. EDIT: Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:45 Thallium wrote:On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days. It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days. I never played WoW, so all of this information is new to me. But I actually wonder: Do you guys think Blizzard will try to make D3 as difficult as the more difficult WoW raids? Because I honestly fdon't think so. First, I think the global difficulty level of D3 will be a lot lower. MMORPG's have a different curve and lifespan than normal (A)RPG's. And second, making a "difficult" instance seems "easier" in WoW. You can make it so that (guessing here) 12 people need to work together. Seems more difficult to make something for just 4. But that's my perception... EDIT 2: Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). Are you talking about WoW? Because in D2, I feel they surely did. Remeber the endless Cow game / easy bloody foothills time? I feel they made Hell difficulty a lot more difficult during the patches...
That's my point, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WoW. And WoW heroic raids usually get cleared in about 2 weeks after release.
Also, H Rag is one of the hardest raid bosses Blizzard has ever made, it was cleared in 3 weeks, although with 600 attempts as the above poster points out.
|
On May 03 2012 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:
There are tiers of gear in WoW too. Most guilds spend months gearing up in the current tier's heroic gear before they even have a chance of beating it.
And then there are world first progression raiding guilds, who are able to clear heroic bosses in blues and greens in the first week of the expansion when it's not possible to get anything more than 1 raid lockout's worth of epic gear.
Sure but they are likely to tune it so that it takes gear+skill to clear, not just skill alone. Or gear alone.
Wow is different in that bosses locked and it reset weekly so you could only get gear at a certain rate.
Naturally people will rush through the game until the point at which they start wiping too often and have to think about how they will progress, and this point will differ for people of opposing skillsets
|
On May 03 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:49 NeoLearner wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. I agree with you. A "legit" clear in 4 days seems highly unlikely. I think Bashiok even said that on their boards: Can I totally go back on what I said before?
Ok, not totally, but I think there’s some distinction to be made for ‘legitimate’ ability to beat Inferno, in that, we expect there could be ways, potentially exploits, potentially clever but cheesy mechanics, that could maybe allow a player to complete Inferno fairly quickly. The bet stands as-is, but I think if it could be revised it would be “X time before it becomes farmable”, meaning someone can legitimately kill the end boss over and over and over without needing to take advantage of an exploit, or loophole, or some other thing we don’t intend to be possible.
Of course we’ll try to address any such issue as quickly as possible, but it’s feasible that the first Inferno clear will be through use of unintended means. Technically still valid per the wording of the bet, but I think most can agree would go against the spirit of it. I was merely trying to show the irony of telling someone he has no idea what they're talking in this case It was foolish during the SC2 beta and there we had full information. In this case, we are quite blind. EDIT: On May 03 2012 23:45 Thallium wrote:On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days. It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days. I never played WoW, so all of this information is new to me. But I actually wonder: Do you guys think Blizzard will try to make D3 as difficult as the more difficult WoW raids? Because I honestly fdon't think so. First, I think the global difficulty level of D3 will be a lot lower. MMORPG's have a different curve and lifespan than normal (A)RPG's. And second, making a "difficult" instance seems "easier" in WoW. You can make it so that (guessing here) 12 people need to work together. Seems more difficult to make something for just 4. But that's my perception... EDIT 2: On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). Are you talking about WoW? Because in D2, I feel they surely did. Remeber the endless Cow game / easy bloody foothills time? I feel they made Hell difficulty a lot more difficult during the patches... That's my point, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WoW. And WoW heroic raids usually get cleared in about 2 weeks after release. Also, H Rag is probably the hardest raid boss Blizzard has made.
When you say "2 weeks after release", that's after the expansion packs, right? I see your point then.
But imagine if they would wipe the WoW servers now. Everyone starting clean. What would be your time estimation before the first team clears the same herioic raid? I can't imagine it will be in 2 weeks. Can't even imagine they manage that in double the amount of time. The elite loot comes from the other raids, right?
Man, I really need to read up on WoW it seems
|
On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is.
Do you accept that
1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress
2) This gear might not be ubiquitous
3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that
i) people keep playing it
ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH
|
On May 04 2012 00:00 NeoLearner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:49 NeoLearner wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. I agree with you. A "legit" clear in 4 days seems highly unlikely. I think Bashiok even said that on their boards: Can I totally go back on what I said before?
Ok, not totally, but I think there’s some distinction to be made for ‘legitimate’ ability to beat Inferno, in that, we expect there could be ways, potentially exploits, potentially clever but cheesy mechanics, that could maybe allow a player to complete Inferno fairly quickly. The bet stands as-is, but I think if it could be revised it would be “X time before it becomes farmable”, meaning someone can legitimately kill the end boss over and over and over without needing to take advantage of an exploit, or loophole, or some other thing we don’t intend to be possible.
Of course we’ll try to address any such issue as quickly as possible, but it’s feasible that the first Inferno clear will be through use of unintended means. Technically still valid per the wording of the bet, but I think most can agree would go against the spirit of it. I was merely trying to show the irony of telling someone he has no idea what they're talking in this case It was foolish during the SC2 beta and there we had full information. In this case, we are quite blind. EDIT: On May 03 2012 23:45 Thallium wrote:On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days. It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days. I never played WoW, so all of this information is new to me. But I actually wonder: Do you guys think Blizzard will try to make D3 as difficult as the more difficult WoW raids? Because I honestly fdon't think so. First, I think the global difficulty level of D3 will be a lot lower. MMORPG's have a different curve and lifespan than normal (A)RPG's. And second, making a "difficult" instance seems "easier" in WoW. You can make it so that (guessing here) 12 people need to work together. Seems more difficult to make something for just 4. But that's my perception... EDIT 2: On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). Are you talking about WoW? Because in D2, I feel they surely did. Remeber the endless Cow game / easy bloody foothills time? I feel they made Hell difficulty a lot more difficult during the patches... That's my point, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WoW. And WoW heroic raids usually get cleared in about 2 weeks after release. Also, H Rag is probably the hardest raid boss Blizzard has made. When you say "2 weeks after release", that's after the expansion packs, right? I see your point then. But imagine if they would wipe the WoW servers now. Everyone starting clean. What would be your time estimation before the first team clears the same herioic raid? I can't imagine it will be in 2 weeks. Can't even imagine they manage that in double the amount of time. The elite loot comes from the other raids, right? Man, I really need to read up on WoW it seems
Yes, you get epic loot from the previous tier, but current tier bosses are balanced assuming that players are wearing the current tier (99% of guilds will be).
And at the start of the expansion, everyone is in blues and greens, yet that doesn't stop the best guilds from clearing most of the heroic raid bosses within the first week. Gear doesn't matter as much as you think.
|
On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH
They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks.
Yes, they can make it literally impossible to clear. They won't. That would just be stupid.
|
On May 03 2012 23:36 d3thorr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:EDIT: On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) The "We increased the combat depth by a factor of 2" statements bug me. I know factor 2, it means double. Like the damage of the mob was 100. Now it is 200. That's a factor 2. How DOES one increase a combat depth? Is that measured in meters, yards or ponies? It makes my marketing-sense tingle How do you guys see that? An active increase in AI or a normal side-effect of making the monsters be more robust and heavier hitting? I imagine it like this: Say you have a boss fight that requires you to do a certain action ever so often or in a precise time frame. Now to double that you either increase the number of times you have to successfully do that or half the time frame. Half timers for certain boss abilities. Whatever. There are a lot of knobs and buttons to press to make an encounter harder. edit: typos
I think it means that in Inferno, we will fight monsters as complex as our player characters. Instead of seeing demons that throw firebolts until you kill them, they will run around, regroup, throw different kinds of fireballs, have some kind of super move, have the ability to heal themselves, protect themselves. They will probably have some sort of escape skill too.
They released a handful of elite mob specials and one of them was the monster leaving a trail of fire and trying to TRAP you inside a ring of fire while his buddies kill you. And this is in Normal.
We're in 2012, it's a whole lot easier than before to program an AI that's finally smart, and that uses good tactics.
I say, in Inferno, prepare to meet your match.
|
On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks,
Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder.
How do you know this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
