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On May 04 2012 00:04 paralleluniverse wrote:
And at the start of the expansion, everyone is in blues and greens, yet that doesn't stop the best guilds from clearing most of the heroic raid bosses within the first week. Gear doesn't matter as much as you think.
OK: turn that on its head
How long did it take for HC Ragnaros to be killed? You could argue that the people were a lot closer to having perfect gear than when they were first fighting HC Magmaw or whatever in the first week, because they were already specced out in epics at the start of Firelands.
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On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this?
Because Diablo 3 is a casual game.
And it's soloable.
Imagine how much faster it would take to clear WoW, if you didn't need to coordinate 25 players to execute the fight perfectly.
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On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game.
And you know THIS how?
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On May 04 2012 00:06 The Irate Turk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:04 paralleluniverse wrote:
And at the start of the expansion, everyone is in blues and greens, yet that doesn't stop the best guilds from clearing most of the heroic raid bosses within the first week. Gear doesn't matter as much as you think. OK: turn that on its head How long did it take for HC Ragnaros to be killed? You could argue that the people were a lot closer to having perfect gear than when they were first fighting HC Magmaw or whatever in the first week, because they were already specced out in epics at the start of Firelands.
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/lightning-s-blade/Paragon/rating.tier11
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its not possible to compare d3 / wow difficulty cuz we dont even ve played d3 inferno  but as u can do the content solo it should be easier as it the coordination in wow boss encounters with 25 people is the hard part, stepping out of a voidzone alone or attacking the right target...well thats simple, so in conclusion to that i highly doubt that it will be hard if u r not outgeared by the encounters...
would be funny thou if this would be a hard hack and slay game :D but i really ve my doubts
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On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game. And it's soloable. Imagine how much faster it would take to clear WoW, if you didn't need to coordinate 25 players to execute the fight perfectly.
Imagine how much harder developers could make a game if they knew they didnt have to worry about tailoring stuff to be done by groups of 25 players who arent perfectly coordinated.
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On May 04 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game. And you know THIS how?
The concept is the same you control an avatar that has a set bunch of skills you choose, you use these skills to overcome an AI encounter.
d3 you can do that on your own
wow you have to do it with 24 other people
To make it just as hard or harder it would most likely be through some arbitary method like needing some perfect gear. It doesn't really make the encounter more difficult.
They could make it as difficult as wow perhaps, but I don't see how they could make it LEGITIMATELY harder
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On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks. Yes, they can make it literally impossible to clear. They won't. That would just be stupid.
SOME WOW heroic raids get cleared 2 weeks later. Full content? No.
And to give you a better idea, people spend hour after hour, day after day, wiping on the same boss. What's to say they won't put this kind of difficulty in D3?
Why would it be stupid for them to make the hardest part of the game this hard, if not harder, given that you won't have to co-ordinate 25 people/ you can solo it?
The whole point is the longer it takes to beat the game, the more people will play it, the more gear will matter, the more money they will make from their RMAH.
It is very simple logic.
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On May 04 2012 00:08 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game. And you know THIS how?
That's the vibe I get when the developer's talk about the game in interviews.
There also isn't anywhere near as much depth to the spells (there's significantly less spells) than WoW, thus the skill ceiling is lower. Further, you don't need to coordinate 25 players, so again the skill ceiling is lower.
The argument is quite pointless.
Wait until May 18, when I will make my "I told you so" post.
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On May 04 2012 00:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game. Because you do have to be 100% coordinated at the very cutting edge of wow on the hardest stuff they've done. If you didn't you really think guilds like paragon would take 600 attempts to beat ragnaros heroic. And it's soloable. Imagine how much faster it would take to clear WoW, if you didn't need to coordinate 25 players to execute the fight perfectly. Imagine how much harder developers could make a game if they knew they didnt have to worry about tailoring stuff to be done by groups of 25 players who arent perfectly coordinated.
You have to be perfectly coordinated though - you think paragon would take 600 attempts to down heroic rag if they did not need perfect coordination?
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On May 04 2012 00:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:07 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 00:05 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 04 2012 00:03 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug).
And Blizzard isn't in the business of making games that are literally impossible. It will be beatable, and it will be beatable within 4 days. I'm sure 99.999% of the players aren't capable of beating it in 4 days, but the other 0.0001% will do it.
I also have no doubt that there will be endless whining on the forums about how hard inferno is, and that it needs to be nerfed (and it will). But this says more about how bad some players are, particularly since D3 is a casual magnet, than it says about how difficult the content is. Do you accept that 1) If Blizzard wanted to, they could make it so that even the best of the best would need gear before they progress 2) This gear might not be ubiquitous 3) It is in their interest for the game to take as long as possible to beat so that i) people keep playing it ii) they get a greater return on their RMAH They do the same for WoW. And WoW is harder. Yet WoW heroic raids get cleared in 2 weeks, Uuuh, you keep saying WoW is harder. How do you know this? Because Diablo 3 is a casual game. And it's soloable. Imagine how much faster it would take to clear WoW, if you didn't need to coordinate 25 players to execute the fight perfectly. Imagine how much harder developers could make a game if they knew they didnt have to worry about tailoring stuff to be done by groups of 25 players who arent perfectly coordinated.
How does that follow?
The fact that 25 players have to be coordinated makes it harder. If they made something that was hard for 1 player, then scaling up the HP and damage to tune it for 25 players will always make it harder.
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Because if you account for the fact that people need to be in uncoordinated groups of 25 you CANT scale it to 25 players. You deliberatly underscale so that a group has room to make not only individual mistakes, but coordination errors as well.
WoW isnt tuned to require perfection from a group. There is error taken into account. By eliminating sources of error, you eliminate the need to account for that error. Its basic statistics.
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does anyone know if D3 will have a Crushing Blow-like mod?
I really hope not
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On May 04 2012 00:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
Because if you account for the fact that people need to be in uncoordinated groups of 25 you CANT scale it to 25 players. You deliberatly underscale so that a group has room to make not only individual mistakes, but coordination errors as well.
WoW isnt tuned to require perfection from a group. There is error taken into account. By eliminating sources of error, you eliminate the need to account for that error. Its basic statistics.
Try H Rag or at least watch a video of the fight after phase 1 and get back to me.
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so the consensus is pretty much that because the devs have the constraint that the game has to be soloable, and because you do not have to co-ordinate 25 people (which is difficult to do in itself), that one GUARANTEED way they can make it difficult is by making you require gear to progress.
I think my use of difficult above is wrong. It wouldn't make it difficult, just time consuming.
Think about it this way, if you were somehow able to have a BiS geared out character in D3, you could defeat inferno quickly np, but it's getting that BiS which is going ot be the challenge, not the boss encounters.
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On May 04 2012 00:18 The Irate Turk wrote:
so the consensus is pretty much that because the devs have the constraint that the game has to be soloable, and because you do not have to co-ordinate 25 people (which is difficult to do in itself), that one GUARANTEED way they can make it difficult is by making you require gear to progress.
I think my use of difficult above is wrong. It wouldn't make it difficult, just time consuming.
Think about it this way, if you were somehow able to have a BiS geared out character in D3, you could defeat inferno quickly np, but it's getting that BiS which is going ot be the challenge, not the boss encounters.
You overstate the importance of gear. Most T11 heroic bosses were cleared in blues and greens as epics weren't really available.
And there is no way that Diablo 3 will be that hard, T11 is probably the hardest raid tier, it took over a month before the world first.
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On May 04 2012 00:00 NeoLearner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:49 NeoLearner wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about  I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. I agree with you. A "legit" clear in 4 days seems highly unlikely. I think Bashiok even said that on their boards: Can I totally go back on what I said before?
Ok, not totally, but I think there’s some distinction to be made for ‘legitimate’ ability to beat Inferno, in that, we expect there could be ways, potentially exploits, potentially clever but cheesy mechanics, that could maybe allow a player to complete Inferno fairly quickly. The bet stands as-is, but I think if it could be revised it would be “X time before it becomes farmable”, meaning someone can legitimately kill the end boss over and over and over without needing to take advantage of an exploit, or loophole, or some other thing we don’t intend to be possible.
Of course we’ll try to address any such issue as quickly as possible, but it’s feasible that the first Inferno clear will be through use of unintended means. Technically still valid per the wording of the bet, but I think most can agree would go against the spirit of it. I was merely trying to show the irony of telling someone he has no idea what they're talking in this case It was foolish during the SC2 beta and there we had full information. In this case, we are quite blind. EDIT: On May 03 2012 23:45 Thallium wrote:On May 03 2012 23:43 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:24 d3thorr wrote:Jay Wilson on Inferno:
“When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.) 20 attempts lol... It took over 200 attempts from the best guild in the world before the first Kil'Jaeden kill. If that's how their measuring D3 difficulty, then I'm even more confident that it will be cleared within days. It took paragon 600 to beat rag hc, Blizzard know this too. It is not in their interest to make it so easy you can beat it in a few days. I never played WoW, so all of this information is new to me. But I actually wonder: Do you guys think Blizzard will try to make D3 as difficult as the more difficult WoW raids? Because I honestly fdon't think so. First, I think the global difficulty level of D3 will be a lot lower. MMORPG's have a different curve and lifespan than normal (A)RPG's. And second, making a "difficult" instance seems "easier" in WoW. You can make it so that (guessing here) 12 people need to work together. Seems more difficult to make something for just 4. But that's my perception... EDIT 2: On May 03 2012 23:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 03 2012 23:42 The Irate Turk wrote:On May 03 2012 23:27 NeoLearner wrote:We have only seen the first half of the first act. I think we can safely say noone has any idea what they are talking about I mean, both the low side and the high side arguments are based on nothing but empty statements and unrelated game info. What I am saying is in line with what the devs have said. Why would there be different tiers of armour in Inferno? When you have imperfect information (as we do) all you can hope to do is acquire as much of it as possible and apply logic. If they wanted to they could make it so that no one could ever defeat Inferno. PVE is not the same as PVP. They can make the game arbitrarily difficult if they wanted to. They clearly do not want people to defeat the game in under a week. They would look like retards and it would serverely undermine their lucrative RMAH. I do appreciate that the devs don't always think up every scenario and there are lots of permutations with the builds and grouping etc, but every piece of information released makes it look like it will take longer to complete rather than some guys zerging it. Even if there is some amazing four player group dynamic that a few people have theorycrafted, this will probably get nerfed. It isn't hard for Bliz to have people observing the top 100 and seeing how they are levelling and what if any exploits they are using. There is so much they can do. I was speaking to a friend who said if they really want to cockblock in Inferno you they could just make the skeletons outside town really tough elite mobs and drop no gold or gear, so you can't even progress until you equip good enough gear. The game will not be finished in four days, and in the EXTREMELY unlikely event it is, they will patch whatever it is that led to such a quick feat. Give me a break. Blizzard has virtually never buffed PvE content (unless it's fixing a bug). Are you talking about WoW? Because in D2, I feel they surely did. Remeber the endless Cow game / easy bloody foothills time? I feel they made Hell difficulty a lot more difficult during the patches... That's my point, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WoW. And WoW heroic raids usually get cleared in about 2 weeks after release. Also, H Rag is probably the hardest raid boss Blizzard has made. When you say "2 weeks after release", that's after the expansion packs, right? I see your point then. But imagine if they would wipe the WoW servers now. Everyone starting clean. What would be your time estimation before the first team clears the same herioic raid? I can't imagine it will be in 2 weeks. Can't even imagine they manage that in double the amount of time. The elite loot comes from the other raids, right? Man, I really need to read up on WoW it seems
As a loooong-time WoW player (regularly from 2004-2010), this idea intrigues me. Sort of like what Blizzard is doing by resetting the D2 ladder every once in a while. I feel like it would have to wait until the game is sort of on its way out (major decline in subscribers), but if they absolutely wiped everybody (this does make me cringe a bit knowing how much time I put into my toons) and made people level from 1 and complete all the old content to get to the new content...I would think that could cause a resurgence of sorts.
I always come back to the game once or twice a year and always play a little less each time, and I think it's because most of the magic is lost to me at this point. That game was so damn addicting when it was first released, well through BC. After that it kind of wore off. Having to level, with no gold, heirloom gear, bags, or help of any kind, back when leveling was actually difficult, was so rewarding.
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On May 04 2012 00:20 ZasZ. wrote:
As a loooong-time WoW player (regularly from 2004-2010), this idea intrigues me. Sort of like what Blizzard is doing by resetting the D2 ladder every once in a while. I feel like it would have to wait until the game is sort of on its way out (major decline in subscribers), but if they absolutely wiped everybody (this does make me cringe a bit knowing how much time I put into my toons) and made people level from 1 and complete all the old content to get to the new content...I would think that could cause a resurgence of sorts.
I always come back to the game once or twice a year and always play a little less each time, and I think it's because most of the magic is lost to me at this point. That game was so damn addicting when it was first released, well through BC. After that it kind of wore off. Having to level, with no gold, heirloom gear, bags, or help of any kind, back when leveling was actually difficult, was so rewarding.
AFAIK they indirectly do this by creating new servers every so often
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On May 04 2012 00:16 Two_DoWn wrote:
Because if you account for the fact that people need to be in uncoordinated groups of 25 you CANT scale it to 25 players. You deliberatly underscale so that a group has room to make not only individual mistakes, but coordination errors as well.
WoW isnt tuned to require perfection from a group. There is error taken into account. By eliminating sources of error, you eliminate the need to account for that error. Its basic statistics.
Except at the high end it is tuned for perfect coordination?
Most people don't experience these fights cos by the time 99% of the player base get to it - it has been nerfed so you can make errors.
Having more people allows for additional mechanics that you can't have with just 1 person.
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On May 04 2012 00:20 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:18 The Irate Turk wrote:
so the consensus is pretty much that because the devs have the constraint that the game has to be soloable, and because you do not have to co-ordinate 25 people (which is difficult to do in itself), that one GUARANTEED way they can make it difficult is by making you require gear to progress.
I think my use of difficult above is wrong. It wouldn't make it difficult, just time consuming.
Think about it this way, if you were somehow able to have a BiS geared out character in D3, you could defeat inferno quickly np, but it's getting that BiS which is going ot be the challenge, not the boss encounters.
You overstate the importance of gear. Most T11 heroic bosses were cleared in blues and greens as epics weren't really available. And there is no way that Diablo 3 will be that hard, T11 is probably the hardest raid tier, it took over a month before the world first.
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/lightning-s-blade/Paragon/rating.tier11
This is the link you gave me:
From this I gather that the content was released on 7th December and it took 8 days to down their first heroic kill, and just under 7 weeks to complete everything on heroic.
Not quite two weeks.
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EPT
