|
On February 27 2011 11:26 dogabutila wrote:
So the easy answer is to just get WCG to drop samsung as a sponsor and get a new one....
Except no one knows how easy it is for WCG to pick up another sponsor.
|
On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth.
it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
|
On February 27 2011 12:29 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:26 dogabutila wrote:
So the easy answer is to just get WCG to drop samsung as a sponsor and get a new one.... Except no one knows how easy it is for WCG to pick up another sponsor.
And wouldn't solve the broadcasting issue.
|
On February 27 2011 08:57 Wazabo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. You should read the contract FIFA force to the World Cup organizer country.
This post is so full of fail:
SPORTS
1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision
2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially
3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone
4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them
5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining
Out of all those points only n°1 can be considered true. As for the other ones:
Each and every single country which has a soccer league has a soccer association to which all teams pay "royalties" in order to play. You need to het a license to start a tournament of nearly any sport, unless we're talking about neighborhood tournies. If I am to profit by doing business with sports I must pay advertisers, TV firms, and many many other stuff. Hell, I gotta pay tons of cash to the guys who make the ball my tourny is gonna be using. Despite the points above there's 100000 tourneys, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current stars to keep on shining.
You need to understand, sports, like everything else, is one more business, one that moves thousands and thousands of dollars. If e-sports is going to become any biggie, it needs to be a business plain and simple, and as such it needs to be under the rules of business, and right now, those rules state that you must ask the owner of a brand in order to use said brand to earn money. This is nothing out of the ordinary.
I understand that kespa does a big thing for BW and e-sports in general in korea, but what they do can be considered illegal, and it doesn't matter who it benefits, it's still illegal. To get to the point, if "football" "baseball" or "basketball" were registered trademarks, then their owner would receive money from anyone using them to win money, sadly for you, "starcraft" IS a trademark.
|
My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves.
|
im pretty sure they sponsor a starcraft squadron sooo...? they just hatin
|
My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves.
Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me
Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me.
We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports.
|
Aw man 
A year that it's held in Korea, and people might not even go because of Blizzard...T_T
|
i say put bw and wc3 and , delete sc2 and let blizzard play it in a corner , gg samsung
and btw way to go for blizzard ......... they recognized officialy they want to kill bw and now there is a collateral damage the wcg
|
On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:Show nested quote +My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent.
|
On February 27 2011 18:38 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent.
According to one of the interviews with MBC official, HanBit Soft had blizzard's consent. They were a member of KeSPA and StarCraft's distributor in Korea. Seems pretty legit to me. I'd have to look up that interview so that I don't get yelled at by blizzard fanboys. Will do that later (unless I'm mistaken).
|
On February 27 2011 18:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 18:38 zobz wrote:On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent. According to one of the interviews with MBC official, HanBit Soft had blizzard's consent. They were a member of KeSPA and StarCraft's distributor in Korea. Seems pretty legit to me. I'd have to look up that interview so that I don't get yelled at by blizzard fanboys. Will do that later (unless I'm mistaken).
Just to add to what Hanbit Soft is .. They were the official distributor for Blizzard products and yes Nada, I think, was part of the team Hanbit Soft was sponsoring 
|
On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:
You need to het a license to start a tournament of nearly any sport, unless we're talking about neighborhood tournies.
You need a "tournament license" in order to "legally" host a SC2 neighbourhood tourney.
|
the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
|
On February 27 2011 05:31 Pippah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:52 MaYuu wrote:On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. This post is pure gold. I love you man. wow I love all of you so much, that is so true. And ppl like Iamanton (or whatever) and Whitewing.... TL member since last october....? Please just - dont participate when you clearly dont know what you are talking about.
Dude, what are you talking about?
You make no sense.
|
On February 27 2011 21:27 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
The major difference is that Adidas don't own the IP right to the design of a ball, they just manufacture them and put their logo on them, Blizzard do own the IP rights to the Starcraft franchise so its a completely different thing. A football club, for example, could switch to using balls from Umbro or someone else but switching from Blizzards product means using a completely different game which likely won't have the brand appeal or fan base that Starcraft does.
A widely available freely available 'Starcraft clone' as you suggest would very likely infringe on Blizzards IP rights anyway and get shut down, that's the whole point of IP laws and why this whole mess of a situation has come to this point. Any game would have to be different enough to avoid this and thus would be very disimilar to Starcraft.
On another note, I don't see why people take up arms for one side or the other here, both Blizzard and KeSPA (et al) failed to come to terms because both sides dug their heels in where compromises were concerned. Neither is innocent in the making of this situation and both are guilty of looking out for their own interests above those of the greater E-sports community. But that's to be expected, both are privately run organisations and are responsible, first and foremost, to their shareholders, its just a damn shame its had to come to court action to sort this sorry mess out and now the WCG is in danger because of it.
|
On February 27 2011 21:27 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
It's a free market, everyone is allowed to put out a decent, esports-fitting rts. Sadly it doesn't happen, seems it's harder to design a great game than a soccer ball. And it certainly requires more money.
|
On February 27 2011 12:50 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth. it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
The negotiations started in 2007. They got nowhere for several years (for reasons I'm not going to bother to discuss, sticking to facts, not opinions.) The lawsuit started late 2010.
|
They started around the time when Kotick came on board.
|
People should look up some copyright laws. Ever wondered where companies pulled those popular music from? Guess what, they paid for it. It's regrettable (read: fucking ridiculous) that Blizzard decided to enforce their copyright in this way, but by law, they were never the ones at fault.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
