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5003 Posts
The possibilities of Starcraft and Warcraft 3 being excluded from WCG 2011 has been brought up recently.
Although four months has passed since the Grand Finals of WCG 2010 that took place in LA, there hasn't been any official statements regarding the place it will be held on[T/N: It's to be held in Korea, according to Fomos, but city hasn't been decided] nor the official events.
During all of this, there has been strong possibilities of Blizzard games being excluded as an official event. The source of the problem has to do with the Starcraft Brood War IP rights conflict.
This is because Samsung Electronics, a member on KeSPA and WCG's official partner, is strongly against Blizzard games being recognized as official events in the WCG. According to an industry insider, Samsung Electronics has explicitly ordered WCG to exclude Blizzard games from official events.
But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
Thus, WCG has been conflicted whether to include Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and even Starcraft 2 as an official event.
There is also another obstacle WCG needs to handle before being able to choose Blizzard games as official events. This is because WCG's main broadcasting station, OnGameNet, is currently being sued by Blizzard for issues related to Intellectual Property.
There are many perspectives that note that even if WCG includes Starcraft, Starcraft 2, and Warcraft 3 as official events, as long as the intellectual property rights conflict is not resolved, it will be impossible for OGN to broadcast these games.
An insider familiar with the situation has noted that "WCG does not wish to exclude Blizzard games as official events. But because broadcasting it will be impossible and cooperation with networked organizations is very difficult, it will be difficult to even send out Korean representatives"
Continuing, he added that "They are currently considering including Blizzard Games as an official event under the condition that they do not broadcast the games within Korea and Korean representatives are not playing in the WCG".
WCG will soon release information regarding the official events of the WCG 2011 Grand Final
Source: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=599329&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
wtf that's terrible, that means WCG is unwatchable with the exception of CS!
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51398 Posts
Rumors flying around on several sites that Busan will be hosting this years WCG.
And yeh, problems relating to Blizzard were bound to happen sooner or later. Will be interesting how this ends up.
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Why is Samsung against starcraft and etc? I can't understand
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On February 25 2011 16:46 TheOnly92 wrote:
Why is Samsung against starcraft and etc? I can't understand
Made even more perplexing because they sponsor a BW team. Sad.
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5003 Posts
On February 25 2011 16:45 GTR wrote:
Rumors flying around on several sites that Busan will be hosting this years WCG.
And yeh, problems relating to Blizzard were bound to happen sooner or later. Will be interesting how this ends up.
It's definitely NOT going to be Pusan. There's another article shutting that down pretty well
Basically the pusan rumors came from a miscommunication leading to a chinese site reporting Pusan as the place. at this point they're still not decided on what city.
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Ugh, I'm none too happy about this. Not sure what exactly Samsung hopes to accomplish this way.
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Isn't WCG in china this year? If so it will be an absolute and complete failure without WC3. I wonder if this would include DOTA, being part of the WC3 engine?
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On February 25 2011 16:52 On_Slaught wrote:
Isn't WCG in china this year? If so it will be an absolute and complete failure without WC3. I wonder if this would include DOTA, being part of the WC3 engine?
It'll be a complete failure no matter where it is without three head-line games, excepting maybe an European location.
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On February 25 2011 16:46 TheOnly92 wrote:
Why is Samsung against starcraft and etc? I can't understand
they're against Blizzard. Samsung just doesn't want to give Blizzard any type of advertising in WCG.
BW has very little chance of being a candidate game since SC2 has basically replaced BW everywhere but Korea. Samsung is most definitely anti-SC2 given Blizzard's current actions against BW.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
WTF?Seriously Samsung?Seriously?This whole shabang has to end on the 18th of March.
@udgnim please don't say current actions against BW....why are you starting a fight?
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10387 Posts
possibility of no Korean reps? What bullshit, WCG is the best time of the year to get Progamer reps :\
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This is just ridiculous, the corporate world is trying to destroy everything! Simply quite speechless about all of their actions, afterall what ogn does is promoting BW, why is Blizzard suing anyway?
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It sounds like there is nothing conclusive at all. Not worth getting stirred up over pure speculation.
Best case scenario would be BW is included and SC2 isn't to give blizzard a little slap in the face for their bad ip rights decisions. I guess in any case it's a slap to blizzard, but WCG seems like nothing without BW.
EDIT: Having BW without Koreans would be a boost for the foreigner scene. That also might be good.
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Well that blows  . I really hope somehow they can get Blizz games in.
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Rofl, Samsung sank really low this time. So what else will be played @ WCG? Counter-Strike and some racing phone games?
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Any way of getting that translated?
And I'm a little confused by talking about WCG and Samsung as if they're separate...WCG doesn't exist without Samsung.
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5003 Posts
On February 25 2011 17:05 divito wrote:
Any way of getting that translated?
And I'm a little confused by saying WCG and Samsung separately...WCG doesn't exist without Samsung.
WCG is a separate organization, it's just that Samsung Electronics is one of their main sponsors.
WCG had a huge deficit during WCG 2010 in LA, so they've been downsizing and such, which is why they're hosting in Korea from what I can tell
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On February 25 2011 17:05 divito wrote:
Any way of getting that translated?
And I'm a little confused by talking about WCG and Samsung as if they're separate...WCG doesn't exist without Samsung.
rockband/guitarhero ftw
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You can't blame samsung though. They could get sued some more for no reason...its sad that people have to go around suing others because people can't agree on things.
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On February 25 2011 17:07 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:05 divito wrote:
Any way of getting that translated?
And I'm a little confused by saying WCG and Samsung separately...WCG doesn't exist without Samsung. WCG is a separate organization, it's just that Samsung Electronics is one of their main sponsors. WCG had a huge deficit during WCG 2010 in LA, so they've been downsizing and such, which is why they're hosting in Korea from what I can tell
It's not just one of their main sponsors, it is THE main sponsor. Hence why when I went last year, a huge section was dedicated to Samsung, and the Samsung logo being on practically everything. Honestly, if WCG BW doesn't have Korean reps, then... I can't imagine it, it's too sad. We wouldn't have games like FvJ game 2.
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On February 25 2011 16:55 BLinD-RawR wrote:
WTF?Seriously Samsung?Seriously?This whole shabang has to end on the 18th of March.
@udgnim please don't say current actions against BW....why are you starting a fight?
pretty sure I'm not starting a fight. I'm basically restating stuff said in the article.
if you're talking my statement about SC2 basically replacing BW everywhere except Korea, I'm pretty sure that's the truth. if WCG wants BW as part of its competitive games, then I wouldn't mind an all Korean tournament but that kind of goes against what WCG wants to achieve.
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On February 25 2011 17:10 Weedk wrote:
Honestly, if WCG BW doesn't have Korean reps, then... I can't imagine it, it's too sad. We wouldn't have games like FvJ game 2.
or Jaedong vs. Zim....
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On February 25 2011 17:07 Milkis wrote:
WCG is a separate organization, it's just that Samsung Electronics is one of their main sponsors.
WCG had a huge deficit during WCG 2010 in LA, so they've been downsizing and such, which is why they're hosting in Korea from what I can tell
It may be incorporated that way (as separate entities), but WCG only exists because Samsung uses them as a marketing arm. If Samsung were to ever pull out from putting their marketing dollars into WCG and supporting their operation, it'd be a lot harder to keep WCG afloat, if at all; it would take another company to put up a lot of capital into it for essentially nothing. Their commitment in certain countries has waned over the years because of that very reason.
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If any of the Blizzard games are excluded (I can live with WoW not being in though) the WCG will be horrible :-(. CS and QL might be interesting but what else?
Hope this doesn't grow any further than just a speculation, we need SC/SC2/WC3 at the WCG, else, imo, it's not a legit WCG.
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How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though.
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On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though.
you sure aint getting the point in all of this ..
the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. ..
samsung is the main sponsor of WCG
if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it ..
but because of the IP rights case ..
blizzard just made a problem.
no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO]
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Wow, sad news. I guess I wasn't expecting the IP issue to cause such far-reaching problems.
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Terrible, terrible news. What is WCG without Blizzard games?
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man this mess here too
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On February 25 2011 17:26 Bleak wrote:
Terrible, terrible news. What is WCG without Blizzard games?
there is always need4speed .. and counter-strike
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On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO]
I do not fear for the multimillion fusion that is blizzard activision, I am more concerned about WCG that suck because no koreans play in SC/BW or WC3. If they are not going to be shown at all, I actually fear for the WCG. Because I sure am never going to watch it again.
But it seems they made red numbers ? Didnt know what .. well, do what you have to do :/
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I guess this will also include Guitar Hero too... It would seem inconsistent of them to allow other ActivisionBlizzard games.
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Well, I suppose this was expected, since enforcing IP rights out of a sudden from a 10 year old game will cause a lot of problems (since its still being played to this day). Its all speculation at this point, but Samsung could most definitely make WCG not include any Blizzard games.
I hope that it does not end this way. I don't particularly care about WCG all that much, but it would be a pity for a event like this come short because of a conflict of interest from corporations (or just outright protecting themselves from possibilities of being sued by Blizzard).
We shall see how this pans out.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
its just sad though...This IP rights case against the broadcasters(not BW) is seriously taking its toll.
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I expected this. They're in a tough situation. They're without a main sponsor if Samsung pulls out and they're without a lot of the competition if they exclude Blizzard games. WCG fails, or at least becomes less of an event, either way. Best case scenario is for this whole thing to get wrapped up before WCG 2011 starts it's process, unless another major corporation want's to step up and front the costs. (Intel? Microsoft? Blizzard? lol)
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Ummm... yeah just include the games without broadcasting it on MBC/OGN... problem solved. How about running it on aniBox?
This article makes samsung sound like a hard-headed enraged kespa leader but really? Maybe their hands are tied? I don't really see how, or any much reason to exclude blizz games.
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Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate?
WCG is still one of the biggest events in the world even for Blizzard games.
not having it broadcasted is even worse as they make no money out of it and lose a lot more.I'm pretty sure Blizzard will let OGN broadcast without paying for licensing.
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On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate?
Whatever happens, this will most likely be WCG's last year anyhow. Their economy is in shambles after several very bad events from an economical standpoint.
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I'm getting so tired of caring about this lawsuit. I want this to be resolved, but the last few months have shown me that I can enjoy this sport regardless. I almost don't care what the outcome is anymore, just end this and we'll take whatever next steps are necessary.
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On February 25 2011 17:42 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate? WCG is still one of the biggest events in the world even for Blizzard games. not having it broadcasted is even worse as they make no money out of it and lose a lot more.I'm pretty sure Blizzard will let OGN broadcast without paying for licensing.
Well I can see it hurting Blizzard, but won't the WCG be hurt worse overall but not having those games? I mean, Blizzard is making a good deal of money already, and while they will lose potential profit off of WCG due to legal rights, wouldn't obtaining a favorable legal end to the dispute in combination with promoting and assisting the formation of the leagues I mentioned (as well as others) be more profitable in the long run?
Not only that, but negotiating the logistics and legalities of making this work without compromising their legal status seems to be more of a headache then it is worth. But like I have not been following the WCG very closely so I could be wrong, but I think in the long run, the WCG will bleed a lot worse then Blizzard due to this.
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On February 25 2011 17:29 arioch wrote:
I guess this will also include Guitar Hero too... It would seem inconsistent of them to allow other ActivisionBlizzard games.
Guitar Hero is an Activision game and besides, Activision already discontinued the series. Having people play it in a tournament is actually beneficial for the series failing sales.
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On February 25 2011 17:48 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate? Whatever happens, this will most likely be WCG's last year anyhow. Their economy is in shambles after several very bad events from an economical standpoint.
What made the last few WCGs so much worse economically than the years before that?
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This is so strange to me... In the sense that it's hard to imagine. But logically, I don't blame them for their thinking on this.
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This is terrible, Terrible news ! i was SO looking forward to WCG this year with BW, SC2 and WC3
fuck this ruins my day, please win today in GSL moonglade =(
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As far as I'm concerned, WCG can exclude Blizzard games and die of lack of interest. It's a crappy event anyway, badly organised and a sell-out advertisement event for shitty cellphone games and stuff. The idea of an annual olympics of gaming is nice, but the execution is terrible.
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All-foreigner broodwar wouldn't necessarily be that bad. I think wc3 also has a quite significant amount of highest level competition outside of korea?
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hell, I don't think it would be that bad if there were no korean full time progamers, they always send overkill and usually gets to be a korea vs korea final. Wouldn't it be nice for a non-korean to win a WCG in BW just a few more times?
2000-2010 SC:BW Winners all South Korean
+ Show Spoiler + * GoRush (South Korea) (Z) over I.LOVE_STAR (South Korea) (2000)
* BoxeR (South Korea) (T) over ElkY (France) (2001)
* BoxeR (South Korea) (T) over YellOw (South Korea) (2002)
* Ogogo (South Korea) (Z) over FiSheYe (Germany) (2003)
* XellOs (South Korea) (T) over Midas (South Korea) (2004)
* fOru (South Korea) (P) over Androide (Russia) (2005)
* iloveoov (South Korea) (T) over JulyZerg (South Korea) (2006)
* Stork (South Korea) (P) over PJ (China) (2007)
* Luxury (South Korea) (Z) over Stork (South Korea) (2008)
* Jaedong (South Korea) (Z) over Stork (South Korea) (2009)
* Flash (South Korea) (T) over Kal (South Korea) (2010)
But I would LOVE it if Kespa and Blizz solve their differences and help BW and SC2 can grow even stronger.
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Wait run wcg without korean representatives? That means the bw tournament is pretty much useless. Not to mention all the top foreign players moved on to sc2 so a bw tournament would have really bad games. War3 i think could work without korea, there are plenty of good top foreign players there and sc2, while not having the best players, will still have awesome foreign players. Hopefully this gets resolved .
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Well if there's no Blizzard game, then I don't have to watch WCG.
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On February 25 2011 17:51 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
But like I have not been following the WCG very closely so I could be wrong, but I think in the long run, the WCG will bleed a lot worse then Blizzard due to this.
exactly this.
not adding the currently most watched, most important and newest esports title (to promote gaming hardware suitable) will not just directly affect their viewer count massively but also hurt their reputation as the olympic games for esports.
then wcg will be just another cs only tournament, cause the amout of people caring about the other titles is insignificant.
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Lol. I expect that blizzard games would have made up ~3 of the 4 most popular games this year.
edit: typo
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On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO]
Thank you for seeing the light. I was getting worried that everyone was like "BOO THAT SAMSUNG" without seeing what this whole IP rights bull is causing.
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lol wow if there's no blizzard games that means WCG is going to be a terrible event and will probably just be a waste of time hosting one in general.
This will be interesting I'll be sad if there's no sc2/bw in this years wcg
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On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO]
Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news...
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United States7483 Posts
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals.
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WTF this is insane, we should boycot the shit out of WCG if they do this :S
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Wow huge news.. disappointed in Samsung.
Looks like WCG is gonna die out this year, MLG,NASL, and IEM on the rise.
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well it will meake WCG pretty much uninteresting. Whats the poit of watching it without any Blizzard games...
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On February 25 2011 18:21 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO] Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news...
every bit of advertisement helps right? especially if its held in korea .. hey they have been advertised for the past 10 years for free!
On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals.
are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing?
and get your damned facts straight while youre at it .
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As someone who doesn't care about eSports outside of WC3/SC2... this just made WCG 100% irrelevant to me.
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the ammount of shitstorm this could start, i dont even.... If we will have a WCG wihtout SC and W3 oh god
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this was bound to happen.
would have happened in every other country, too.
out of the possibilities:
a.) pay blizzard for "ip rights" broadcasting rights and no other company
b.) pay all companies (but why if they dont ask you to?)
c.) pay no companies
c.) seems the most logical to me. What if maybe Blizz would just present the broadcasting rights for wcg to them?
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so cs is the only thing you can watch?
thats like cutting off both of your legs -.-
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On February 25 2011 17:52 Avaloch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:29 arioch wrote:
I guess this will also include Guitar Hero too... It would seem inconsistent of them to allow other ActivisionBlizzard games. Guitar Hero is an Activision game and besides, Activision already discontinued the series. Having people play it in a tournament is actually beneficial for the series failing sales.
I don't get your point... My point is that WCG will lose 3 of their official competitive games if they are not allowed to use activision products any more, not just 2.
I think its kind of sad to be honest, but if their worldwide partner refuses to allow BlizzardActivision products to be played then there's nothing WCG can do about it really.
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This would have been my first year of truly paying attention to WCG with SC2. I hope this gets worked out because I was excited about this.
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I think the CG of WCG is gone if Blizzard games won't be included?
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wow, ill never buy anything from samsung dont wanna support them
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This is the problem with e-sports. Videogames are predominantly privately owned and for-profit, obviously, and the industry is driven by sequels. You can't just highjack a game disregarding the rights of the individuals who created it because that happens to be the most competitive game available. Blizzard has every right to sue MBC and OGN. For this reason esports can only legitimately function as an unstable generallized competition in which the leagues shift unpredictably from one game to another, and the players, and fans, must follow. This is all anyone should expect until one of these games that's worth playing falls into public domain. As much as i respect all the professionals who helped bring broodwar's potential into fruition as the finest demonstration to date of what esports can be; they were fools to build such a huge industry on such unstable grounds, and deserve to pay the price for it.
I would say that it would've been nice if blizzard had found a way to simply support and properly benefit from all that's been built up around their game, without destroying it. But that would be based on speculation, since i have no idea if that could've been possible. Ultimately it's blizzard's call anyway, and that has to be respected in a free society.
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ohh my god, so blizzard killed them self out of one of the biggest events? hmm thats not very "E-sport" oriented. hope they fix the issue. will be sad. then i have Nothing to watch at the wcg
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On February 25 2011 17:53 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:48 Eury wrote:On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate? Whatever happens, this will most likely be WCG's last year anyhow. Their economy is in shambles after several very bad events from an economical standpoint. What made the last few WCGs so much worse economically than the years before that?
Well, probably the worst decision they did was to host the event in cities that really don't have the audience for it, but they have been bleeding money for years now. I'm sure Samsung, by now, is getting a bit sick of losing money even if you factor in the marketing value of sponsoring such an event.
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Hmm... I don't think so that it will be truth. I suppose that it would be too big lose to WCG Now, we just need to wait :/
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the wcg is not e-sports, its a joke. marketing and industry bullshit.
the sooner the sc community realizes that, the better.
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On February 25 2011 19:08 Nukm_ wrote:
the wcg is not e-sports, its a joke. marketing and industry bullshit. the sooner the sc community realizes that, the better. and its not like the last years where the international sc community needed an event like this
what? WCG has been the only tournament that caters RTS, Arena-based, FPS, Sport games fans for the past decade .. and its bullshit?
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Why are people hating on Samsung? This is the first time we've seen anyone go on the offensive against blizzard with regard to the ip rights issue. At least that's what this seems like.
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On February 25 2011 18:33 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 18:21 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO] Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news... every bit of advertisement helps right? especially if its held in korea .. hey they have been advertised for the past 10 years for free! Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals. are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing? and get your damned facts straight while youre at it .
rofl... I just have to point this out
"lolol they advertised for free through kespa omg omg omg"
"are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing?"
Anyway, yes every bit of advertisement helps. But advertisement in WCG is not big enough for them to go back on their word or philosophy. How many people watch the WCG? How many of them have never heard of Starcraft/Diablo/Warcraft? They aren't reaching an audience that they haven't tapped into already. If anything, WCG is the one hurt by this, (and by association, their sponsors). For Blizzard, this is unfortunate but I doubt it is a company-shaking event.
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I can't believe anybody thinks this is Samsungs fault. MBC and OGN are been sued for broadcasting Blizzard games. Samsung is heavily involved in the broodwar scene so why would it risk and further law suits buy allowing blizzard games to be broadcasted at its event (WCG is bascially funded by Samsung (right?)). This is gonna kill WCG starcraft is buy far the biggest game in WCG, SC2 might have been sick and been big to this year. But i totally surport the descion how can they pump money into a competion when Blizzard are sueing thier parteners for broadcasting Blizzard games
Blizzard wouldn't care about Broodwar if it wasn't for MBC and OGN. Broodwar would be dead with out the Korean scene and its unbeliavable that Blizzard are willing to risk ruining this wonderful scene just because they don't make money from it. Blizzard makes so much money already its redicolous, and they have the tenacity to say things like Blizzard surports Esports.
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I think that WCG has more to loose than Blizzard in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their mind soon, forced by the presure of the crowd.
WCG in Korea? Without both SC.BW and SC2? I doubt it would make it :D
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On February 25 2011 16:56 TheOnly92 wrote:
This is just ridiculous, the corporate world is trying to destroy everything! Simply quite speechless about all of their actions, afterall what ogn does is promoting BW, why is Blizzard suing anyway?
ogn promotes BW, but is also making money off Blizzard's game. Blizzard wants money.
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On February 25 2011 19:13 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 18:33 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 18:21 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO] Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news... every bit of advertisement helps right? especially if its held in korea .. hey they have been advertised for the past 10 years for free! On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals. are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing? and get your damned facts straight while youre at it . rofl... I just have to point this out "lolol they advertised for free through kespa omg omg omg" "are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing?"
are you denying that they didn't advertise a game for 10 years? have you forgotten about the 1ST advertisement of SC2 was in korea and not some NA/EU country?
Also, I was quoting someone else who had a very disturbing post.
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But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
Pure pwnage...
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On February 25 2011 19:17 Agathon wrote:
I think that WCG has more to loose than Blizzard in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their mind soon, forced by the presure of the crowd.
WCG in Korea? Without both SC.BW and SC2? I doubt it would make it :D
Read the OP. WCGs main sponsor wants it gone. WCG itself wants the games in.
I see Samsung's point. Why would they want the WCG sued?
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If they do this then they won't get many people really watching it or make any money except for CS....
WCG would lose far to much from not Including SC and Wc3
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On February 25 2011 17:04 Latham wrote:
and some racing phone games?
Torch is gonna clean house!
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On February 25 2011 19:20 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:13 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 18:33 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 18:21 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO] Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news... every bit of advertisement helps right? especially if its held in korea .. hey they have been advertised for the past 10 years for free! On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals. are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing? and get your damned facts straight while youre at it . rofl... I just have to point this out "lolol they advertised for free through kespa omg omg omg" "are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing?" are you denying that they didn't advertise a game for 10 years? have you forgotten about the 1ST advertisement of SC2 was in korea and not some NA/EU country? Also, I was quoting someone else who had a very disturbing post.
No I agree. What I'm saying is that the post mentions the Kespa-Blizzard thing, and then says "are we really going to go into this Kespa-Blizzard thing?"
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On February 25 2011 19:17 Agathon wrote:
I think that WCG has more to loose than Blizzard in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if they change their mind soon, forced by the presure of the crowd.
WCG in Korea? Without both SC.BW and SC2? I doubt it would make it :D
Look at it this way. Gom controls broadcasts of SC:BW and SC2 in Korea.
Would Samsung fork money for:
*prices
*all logistics
When they wouldnt be able to get their advertisments and logos to a wide population? They cannot make a deal to have Blizzard games shown on TV cause if they do it they would lose the court case, cause it would be like saying "you were right we were wrong"
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On February 25 2011 19:25 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:20 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 19:13 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 18:33 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 18:21 mprs wrote:On February 25 2011 17:22 aimaimaim wrote:On February 25 2011 17:20 Tufas wrote:
How many top foreigners are playing broodwar nowadays anyway ?
None ? 4?
Without koreans there is no need for BW ... I dont have any idea how many progamers are still playing WC3 though. you sure aint getting the point in all of this .. the place is asia where blizzard games practically rule WC3. BW. SC2. .. samsung is the main sponsor of WCG if its gonna be held in korea, then OGN/MBC will be covering it .. but because of the IP rights case .. blizzard just made a problem.no game advertisement for the biggest international tournament on earth = bad thing for blizz (?) [IMO] Blizzard needs game advertisement? That is the real news... every bit of advertisement helps right? especially if its held in korea .. hey they have been advertised for the past 10 years for free! On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
Blizzard actually tried, for years, to convince KESPA to recognize their property rights without filing a lawsuit. KESPA refused, and has continued to earn a profit off of Blizzard's game. Just to be clear: Blizzard tried to settle the issue without a lawsuit.
KESPA is basically a money grubbing organization that has no respect for the players (tons of reports of this), no respect for the games themselves and the game developers, and no respect for ESPORTS in general based on their wanton refusals. are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing? and get your damned facts straight while youre at it . rofl... I just have to point this out "lolol they advertised for free through kespa omg omg omg" "are we really gonna derail this thread again into a kespa vs blizz thing?" are you denying that they didn't advertise a game for 10 years? have you forgotten about the 1ST advertisement of SC2 was in korea and not some NA/EU country? Also, I was quoting someone else who had a very disturbing post. No I agree. What I'm saying is that the post mentions the Kespa-Blizzard thing, and then says "are we really going to go into this Kespa-Blizzard thing?"
it wasn't a kespa-blizz thing .. it was just a kespa-SC2 thing .. not blizz ..
Free advertisement of SC:BW that had an impact on SC2 .. because to me, if it wasn't for SC:BW, SC2's reception would have been worse that WC3TFT and WoW[pvp] ..
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Well, no Blizzard games means no reason for me to watch WCG. That's that.
In the long run I guess it will kill WCG, if they are not able to get the most successful (SC:BW ) and the currently most prominent, most played game (SC2 worldwide) for their tournament.
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Samsung pulling a reversal on Blizzard? For some reason my heart is excited at the thought. I have nothing against SC2 but I feel Blizzard has had this coming for a long time.
It's a little sad that BW and WC3, the main representatives may not be around this time, it's refreshing to see someone else use their power against Blizzard for the first time. I feel that they have grown complacent and need to be taught a little humility.
Love stork and Samsung, might go get myself a Galaxy Tab. Shame for eSports fans but something had to be done I guess :\
Blizzard should just drop their lawsuit so that everyone's happy again.
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On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Shame for eSports but something had to be done I guess :\
I think it's probably good for ESPORTS in the long run. There is no precedent for the particular issues involved in this ip rights dispute. Blizzard is clearly the enemy of ESPORTS in that they will set a negative precedent. Any pressure put on them as a result of their actions is great.
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On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Samsung pulling a reversal on Blizzard? For some reason my heart is excited at the thought. I have nothing against SC2 but I feel Blizzard has had this coming for a long time.
.
The question isn't if Blizzard loses on this, or do they deserve it, but e-sports, and we, the viewers, and the players lose by this. I think it's a too big of a price to pay for showing Blizz they can't do anything
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Blizzard should just drop their lawsuit so that everyone's happy again.
well to be honest the lawsuit is the fastest way to get this done,since both sides were so stubborn during the negotiations.
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Lol, if WCG asks blizzard, they'll sponsor WCG without samsung's help
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On February 25 2011 19:45 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Samsung pulling a reversal on Blizzard? For some reason my heart is excited at the thought. I have nothing against SC2 but I feel Blizzard has had this coming for a long time.
. The question isn't if Blizzard loses on this, or do they deserve it, but e-sports, and we, the viewers, and the players lose by this. I think it's a too big of a price to pay for showing Blizz they can't do anything
Yeah lol. Blizzard doesn't lose as much as we/WCG/Samsung loses by not having 2 premiere competitive games in the mix.
If there was no SC2, or no F/J/S/B for BW, I probably wouldn't watch (and I'm sure many people as well).
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 25 2011 19:12 thopol wrote:
Why are people hating on Samsung? This is the first time we've seen anyone go on the offensive against blizzard with regard to the ip rights issue. At least that's what this seems like. On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Samsung pulling a reversal on Blizzard? For some reason my heart is excited at the thought. I have nothing against SC2 but I feel Blizzard has had this coming for a long time.
It's a little sad that BW and WC3, the main representatives may not be around this time, it's refreshing to see someone else use their power against Blizzard for the first time. I feel that they have grown complacent and need to be taught a little humility.
Love stork and Samsung, might go get myself a Galaxy Tab. Shame for eSports but something had to be done I guess :\
Heh exactly what I thought when reading through this - Samsung pulled a fast one this round. Previously Blizzard only incurred the fans' wrath, now its a situation that includes international advertisers and sponsors. Wonder how they'll get out of this fix.
Also, "They are currently considering including Blizzard Games as an official event under the condition that they do not broadcast the games within Korea and Korean representatives are not playing in the WCG", sounds like some childish retort considering the Korean players are the ones that fans want to see at WCG (at least I do). Perhaps it may be a stunt to allow non-Korean winners in SC:BW for a change?
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On February 25 2011 19:44 thopol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:36 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Shame for eSports but something had to be done I guess :\ I think it's probably good for ESPORTS in the long run. There is no precedent for the particular issues involved in this ip rights dispute. Blizzard is clearly the enemy of ESPORTS in that they will set a negative precedent. Any pressure put on them as a result of their actions is great.
Yeah I meant eSports fans, but somehow forgot to include it, I blame it on posting from a phone <3
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On February 25 2011 19:20 Milkyst wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 16:56 TheOnly92 wrote:
This is just ridiculous, the corporate world is trying to destroy everything! Simply quite speechless about all of their actions, afterall what ogn does is promoting BW, why is Blizzard suing anyway? ogn promotes BW, but is also making money off Blizzard's game. Blizzard wants money.
I thought Blizzard was only asking for 1 dollar a year or something ridiculous like that? But that might just be hear say. Anyways I thought it wasn't about money but that Blizzard wanted OGN to recognize that everything they're making money off of is technically intellectual property of Blizzard.
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Samsung worries that they're paying money for a soon becoming Blizzard tournament.
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Quite sure that this is worse for the WCG than for Blizzard...
Still an interesting idea from Samsung, though I'm note sure how smart it is to add more fuel to the fire...
On February 25 2011 18:54 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:53 teamsolid wrote:On February 25 2011 17:48 Eury wrote:On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate? Whatever happens, this will most likely be WCG's last year anyhow. Their economy is in shambles after several very bad events from an economical standpoint. What made the last few WCGs so much worse economically than the years before that? Well, probably the worst decision they did was to host the event in cities that really don't have the audience for it, but they have been bleeding money for years now. I'm sure Samsung, by now, is getting a bit sick of losing money even if you factor in the marketing value of sponsoring such an event.
Well, WCG was actually just burning money since ever... (let's face it: live spectator tickets won't make you a whole lot of money)... And yes, on addition they probably made bad choices.
From what I've heard Samsung was thinking about leaving the WCG for quite a while now... wouldn't be too shocked if it's gonna happen, quite expensive toy^^
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I doubt Blizz would hardball WCG if they applied for broadcasting rights during thier event, it would be massive bad PR. Blizzard has managed to work with MLG, IEM and other big events, why is it suddenly impossible for WCG to come to an agreement?
From the sound of it Samsung is pissed at Blizz for suing thier partner in the first place so they just do not want to even try to get something sorted for WCG.
And yeah i agree with this:
On February 25 2011 17:49 Bijan wrote:
I'm getting so tired of caring about this lawsuit. I want this to be resolved, but the last few months have shown me that I can enjoy this sport regardless. I almost don't care what the outcome is anymore, just end this and we'll take whatever next steps are necessary.
Seriously, get your shit sorted. But WCG has hell of a lot more to loose in this situation, i will keep watching SC2 without WCG, but i wont watch WCg without SC2.
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Well, R.I.P WCG, for me at least...
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I get the feeling this is all happening because of Activision.
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On February 25 2011 20:06 zhouzhou wrote:
I get the feeling this is all happening because of Activision.
sheeesh .. do you really think so?? 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2011 17:42 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:40 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Blizzard still has GOM, NASL, and MLG at the very least off the top of my head. Is WCG ultimately really going to leave a mark on them? I know WCG used to be really big, but does it still carry the kind of weight it used to in the current competitive climate? WCG is still one of the biggest events in the world even for Blizzard games. not having it broadcasted is even worse as they make no money out of it and lose a lot more.I'm pretty sure Blizzard will let OGN broadcast without paying for licensing.
WCG is different, you represent your country TT
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Well Blizzard want fees for hosting and broadcasting events, why they want from kespa and not from WCG ??? I'm totaly on the side of Samsung becouse they have point.
It is dual standarts one organisation should pay fees other shouldn't.
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On February 25 2011 20:23 AcOrP wrote:
Well Blizzard want fees for hosting and broadcasting events, why they want from kespa and not from WCG ??? I'm totaly on the side of Samsung becouse they have point.
It is dual standarts one organisation should pay fees other shouldn't.
They aren't asking KeSPA to pay, they are asking OGN and MBC to pay the fees they are paying to KeSPA, to Blizzard instead. Because it is Blizzard that have the rights, not KeSPA.
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Urgh. In an ideal world Blizzard would just drop the lawsuit so E-sports could continue grow happily and free. -__- Now we end up with stuff like this.
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I get it that it's not at all fun to have your broadcasting right questioned after such a long time, I get samsung on that(although I dont agree with the overall way it's been done etc). But the general view on this that blizz dont deserve any money despite it being them who made the game is just fucked up and Samsung better recognise, they are in the wrong on that. On the positive side though I've been looking for a new tv and samsung has no problem with recognising that you can use things you didnt make or pay for. Wonder what model I should steal. hmm...
edit: oops didnt mean to say steal, I meant utilise
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On February 25 2011 20:30 Holgerius wrote:
Urgh. In an ideal world Blizzard would just drop the lawsuit so E-sports could continue grow happily and free. -__- Now we end up with stuff like this.
I think this is the mentality behind it; Samsung want Blizzard to drop the lawsuit so that WCG can continue on and then Blizzard get their free advertising.
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Kespa has clearly been in the wrong for a long period of time. There is absolutely no question about it. Blizzard is in the right, they warned Kespa numerous times over a long period of time.
Only problem is this is now effecting competitive tournaments.
Honestly guys though, think about it, who really cares about WCG? They had a reality show with random nonames playing mario kart and dance dance. They make terrible decisions, pick bad citys, and haven't been the big name in E-Sports since CS died.
With NASL and MLG, maybe it would be good to see WCG just bite the dust finally and some of those sponsors can fan out to other more worthy organizations.
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Why oh why does a sponsor interefere this much? Makes me percieve my samsung tv and monitor differently, seems like every company is run by complete bell-ends...
and the ones who end up suffering is the players and the fans. DAMNIT!!
With NASL and MLG, maybe it would be good to see WCG just bite the dust finally and some of those sponsors can fan out to other more worthy organizations.
What the heck? WCG is the olympics of ESPORTS. So fun to follow your country in the world wide scene.
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It's understandable that kespa and their partners wish to use anything they can to gain leverage. The fans are getting fucked obviously but in the kespa/blizzard conflict it has become pretty apparent how neither really gives a shit about the fans anyway.
On February 25 2011 20:37 gregnog wrote:
Kespa has clearly been in the wrong for a long period of time. There is absolutely no question about it. Blizzard is in the right, they warned Kespa numerous times over a long period of time.
Only problem is this is now effecting competitive tournaments.
Honestly guys though, think about it, who really cares about WCG? They had a reality show with random nonames playing mario kart and dance dance. They make terrible decisions, pick bad citys, and haven't been the big name in E-Sports since CS died.
With NASL and MLG, maybe it would be good to see WCG just bite the dust finally and some of those sponsors can fan out to other more worthy organizations.
When did CS die? O_O
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I really hope this wont come true :/
I started playing broodwar because of the WCG and if the rumors become true, that will be the saddest esport related news ever
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I haven't been to fond off the wcg myself, I have actually mainly watched for other games in the past, and even then the tournaments were run at a mediocre level.
So the following options
1) They don't run blizzard games, their image gets even worse and they start dying a slow death, they have been in a bit of a "slump" for a while now, and if this happens they will mainly be some sort of weird "show off samsung stuff event"
2) They run blizzard games against samsung's will, and then samsung may stop sponsering them, and it's probably gonna be lights out for them, I don't see any sponsor as big as samsung jumping in to sponsor a poorly run event like this, at this point the only value I see in the wcg is the name off it, and the sort off media it got in the more mainstream media for being the olympics off gaming
3) Samsung and wcg come to an agreement to run the games anyway, but then you have trouble with broadcasts etc.
Whatever happens, I just dont see how wcg can come out of this in a good way, and it's another hit again on their image.
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Oh great, excluding Blizzard games? So WCG is down to a random CS-Offline Tournament (Sorry, but most of the other games are pretty much garbage and not worth watching").
Go ahead Samsung, go crash the tournement you sponsor yourself.
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On February 25 2011 20:42 Icx wrote:
I haven't been to fond off the wcg myself, I have actually mainly watched for other games in the past, and even then the tournaments were run at a mediocre level.
So the following options
1) They don't run blizzard games, their image gets even worse and they start dying a slow death, they have been in a bit of a "slump" for a while now, and if this happens they will mainly be some sort of weird "show off samsung stuff event"
2) They run blizzard games against samsung's will, and then samsung may stop sponsering them, and it's probably gonna be lights out for them, I don't see any sponsor as big as samsung jumping in to sponsor a poorly run event like this, at this point the only value I see in the wcg is the name off it, and the sort off media it got in the more mainstream media for being the olympics off gaming
3) Samsung and wcg come to an agreement to run the games anyway, but then you have trouble with broadcasts etc.
Whatever happens, I just dont see how wcg can come out of this in a good way, and it's another hit again on their image.
It'd be nice if WCG was sponsored by intel XD
intel is loved. is looking for a new sponsor even a possibility?
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On February 25 2011 20:47 Dekker wrote:
Oh great, excluding Blizzard games? So WCG is down to a random CS-Offline Tournament (Sorry, but most of the other games are pretty much garbage and not worth watching").
this pretty much.wcg was only interesting cause it brought bw/wc3 players from all over the world into one big tournament.
all the other games are jokes at best. no blizzard rts -> no wcg.
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On February 25 2011 20:40 hifriend wrote:It's understandable that kespa and their partners wish to use anything they can to gain leverage. The fans are getting fucked obviously but in the kespa/blizzard conflict it has become pretty apparent how neither really gives a shit about the fans anyway. Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 20:37 gregnog wrote:
Kespa has clearly been in the wrong for a long period of time. There is absolutely no question about it. Blizzard is in the right, they warned Kespa numerous times over a long period of time.
Only problem is this is now effecting competitive tournaments.
Honestly guys though, think about it, who really cares about WCG? They had a reality show with random nonames playing mario kart and dance dance. They make terrible decisions, pick bad citys, and haven't been the big name in E-Sports since CS died.
With NASL and MLG, maybe it would be good to see WCG just bite the dust finally and some of those sponsors can fan out to other more worthy organizations. When did CS die? O_O
It's not dead, but it is dying.
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How the fuck Samsungs gets to decide that wc3 can't be played?!?!? Kespa doesn't seem to give a shit about wc3.... For fucking sake...
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I see that Activision/Blizzard is owned by Vivendi, some French conglomerate that isn't even close to the size of Samsung (the world's largest private corporation). Why doesn't Samsung just do a corporate takeover of that shit, and not have to deal with this IP rights garbage?
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The way I see it Samsung is not very happy to pay Blizzard the rights and also promote their games, by including them in a big event like WCG. Unfortunately Blizzard have all the rights and if Samsung want to profit from WCG they have to pay the royalties to the game creators. I still don't see why Blizzard are the bad guys. They just don't want people to start organizing events and profit from their work.
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On February 25 2011 20:42 Icx wrote:
I haven't been to fond off the wcg myself, I have actually mainly watched for other games in the past, and even then the tournaments were run at a mediocre level.
So the following options
1) They don't run blizzard games, their image gets even worse and they start dying a slow death, they have been in a bit of a "slump" for a while now, and if this happens they will mainly be some sort of weird "show off samsung stuff event"
2) They run blizzard games against samsung's will, and then samsung may stop sponsering them, and it's probably gonna be lights out for them, I don't see any sponsor as big as samsung jumping in to sponsor a poorly run event like this, at this point the only value I see in the wcg is the name off it, and the sort off media it got in the more mainstream media for being the olympics off gaming
3) Samsung and wcg come to an agreement to run the games anyway, but then you have trouble with broadcasts etc.
Whatever happens, I just dont see how wcg can come out of this in a good way, and it's another hit again on their image.
ppl will still watch Counter Strike <3
and of course League of Legends <3
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On February 25 2011 19:56 yammeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:20 Milkyst wrote:On February 25 2011 16:56 TheOnly92 wrote:
This is just ridiculous, the corporate world is trying to destroy everything! Simply quite speechless about all of their actions, afterall what ogn does is promoting BW, why is Blizzard suing anyway? ogn promotes BW, but is also making money off Blizzard's game. Blizzard wants money. I thought Blizzard was only asking for 1 dollar a year or something ridiculous like that? But that might just be hear say. Anyways I thought it wasn't about money but that Blizzard wanted OGN to recognize that everything they're making money off of is technically intellectual property of Blizzard.
nope
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I get why they are doing this, seeing as they don't want any more lawsuit trouble.
Due note that WCG wants Blizzard games(hell, theyl lose spectatorship if not) however Samsung does not. Samsung is their main sponsor and if they pull out there won't be a WCG at all. I understand why Samsuing is doing this with all of the lawsuit trouble they can run into it and I applaud them for making a stand. However this will sadly hurt the viewers.
Also, if you really want to read up on what is really happening into Kespa V blizzard check out this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188322
Don't derail this though if possible 
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It's amazing yet sad at the same time that Blizzard rts games (bw/sc2/wc3) are the main e-sports games in the world followed by perhaps cs. WCG/Samsung excluding all Activision Blizzard games at WCG which is arguably the 3 most popular e-sports games in history. Which means the majority of viewers are already going to stop watching means less advertisement for the sponsors and the organisation than they arguably already have. Seems like they would rather let WCG fall than to surrender to Activision Blizzard in a matter of speaking.
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WCG without SC2 and WC3!?
NO WAY iam gonna watch it then.
Blizzard games = e-sport
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 25 2011 21:01 Inex wrote:
The way I see it Samsung is not very happy to pay Blizzard the rights and also promote their games, by including them in a big event like WCG. Unfortunately Blizzard have all the rights and if Samsung want to profit from WCG they have to pay the royalties to the game creators. I still don't see why Blizzard are the bad guys. They just don't want people to start organizing events and profit from their work.
Thats pretty much why they are the bad guys?
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Sad if this came true
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On February 25 2011 21:31 Morta wrote:
WCG without SC2 and WC3!?
NO WAY iam gonna watch it then.
Blizzard games = e-sport
I'm guessing this will be the last year of WCG if there won't be any blizzard games hosted. The viewing numbers will be too low compared to other years.
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On February 25 2011 21:44 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 21:31 Morta wrote:
WCG without SC2 and WC3!?
NO WAY iam gonna watch it then.
Blizzard games = e-sport
I'm guessing this will be the last year of WCG if there won't be any blizzard games hosted. The viewing numbers will be too low compared to other years.
Definetly!
I mean,CS,CSS and all those games aren't bad games but SC2 is THE game at the moment and nearly everyone who is interested in e-sport want's to see the best players in the world competing in Blizzard's RTS games.
The number of viewers will drop rapidly when theres no WC3,SC2,SC1.
I'am really sad at the moment cause i always loved the WCG,i mean who didn't love it. ^^
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the live audiance in wcg chengdu 2009 was the most impressive thing I've ever seen live in e-sports, would be so sad to host wcg without blizz games ;(, certainly if its china, they love rts !_o
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Coincidence, I'm about to buy a 40+ inch tv this week and the choice for me was Philips or Samsung. This makes my decision very easy, not that it matters anyway. Looking now at my Samsung monitor makes me wanna puke.
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I think its Activision Blizzard's fault, being greedy bu tho Samsung is no better either.
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This is just another plot by Samsung to get more cell phone games in WCG, so Stork can actually win a gold.
But in all seriousness, foreign BW scene is dead, so there's no point to having that again, and Blizzard/GomTV already have a ton of Starcraft 2 leagues planned (including a world championship tournament I think), so they are unlikely to support WCG SC2, not that we'd miss much anyways. I think there are already enough tournaments.
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I love Samsung KHAN even more now. WCG sucks anyway so I dont really care about SC (yay koreans stomp everyone + no streams ) or any other game anymore.Show Blizzard whos boss if they want to kill of BW then Samsung will do this.
In ideal scenario Blizzard would drop the IP rights shenanigans and leave BW going its natural course and SC2 will still be more popular (outside Korea ).
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On February 25 2011 20:39 HeIios wrote:Why oh why does a sponsor interefere this much? Makes me percieve my samsung tv and monitor differently, seems like every company is run by complete bell-ends... and the ones who end up suffering is the players and the fans. DAMNIT!! Show nested quote +With NASL and MLG, maybe it would be good to see WCG just bite the dust finally and some of those sponsors can fan out to other more worthy organizations. What the heck? WCG is the olympics of ESPORTS. So fun to follow your country in the world wide scene.
if WCG would be the olympics of e sports, then it would only be held every 4 years.
side note:
how much had teamliquid to pay to blizzard for being allowed to host the TSL3?
just want to know of which numbers we are speaking...
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Does Samsung realize that sc:bw is a blizzard game?XD Also a WCG without blizz games, do not want.
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No Blizzard games is the finishing blow for WCG then I guess. But there are so many tournaments rising like NASL and GSL, so it doesn't really matter. Sucks for WC3 though, isn't WCG the biggest WC3 tournament?
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WCG would be promoting blizzard games (sc2 mostly) to other gamers and world(its world compatition) instead of gom/nasl/mlg that does not promote them to anyone except starcraft 2 viewers/players.
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guess this is was differs e-sports from regular sports...
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Why should Samsung pay blizzard to advertise their games?
Sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
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i hate to join the Doom choir, but i also believe that no SC2, BW and WC3 might hurt WCG more than it can recover from =(
not do disrepect CS and all the other games/community but i honestly believe that without those 3 games, WCG is in a horrible situation
oh well, back to praying everything works out!!!!!
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Rock, meet Hard Place and his brother IP Rights.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i find it hard to believe that a compromise will not be reached and blizzard games will be discluded
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On February 25 2011 22:10 Rekrul wrote:
i find it hard to believe that a compromise will not be reached and blizzard games will be discluded
If they reach the compromise it would lower the chance of OGN winning court case. Samsung is smart. It waits till there would be decision of the court to take action.
Also paying 3 broadcast fees (wc3, sc:bw, sc2) to Gretech would be a bit of strain on WCG i believe
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I'm very happy that Samsung is strongly standing behind Broodwar. Blizzard should just accept that SC2 will always, or at least for a long time, come second in Korea to Broodwar. They have the entire world (except, maybe, for China) to develop their new game, but they decided to fuck up everything trying to force feed koreans with SC2, then dropping the hammer with the IP rights suit. I actually love the status quo, a great SC1 korean scene and a nice and growing SC2 scene for foreigners.
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really pathetic how much of a stranglehold blizzard has put on esports since SC2 came out, they're only shooting themselves in the foot.
on another note, do people still play cs 1.6? the north america scene seems pretty dead to me
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Why can't kespa and blizzard just reach a compromise.
Put the fans first ffs.
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On February 25 2011 20:55 Weavel wrote:
How the fuck Samsungs gets to decide that wc3 can't be played?!?!? Kespa doesn't seem to give a shit about wc3.... For fucking sake...
OGN doesn't have the rights from Blizzard to cast WC 3 , BW or SC2 so it's only natural to exclude those games from WCG since Blizzard is suing them for it and OGN will be the main broadcasting station for WCG in korea . Nothing wrong with Samsung wanting to drop those games from WCG .
I personaly will miss them , but will still watch the WCG . There are a lot of good RTS out there besides WC 3 and SC that were not given the attention they need it .
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Yeah.. this seems very counterproductive to me. Possibly kills off WCG and I'm not quite sure how this'll help BW (and thus Kespa) either. As for Blizzard.. well I guess they'll just have to go get recognized in one of them other great many tournaments popping up all over. Poor guys.
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I would think WCG needs Blizzard a lot more than Blizzard needs WCG.
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Kinda sad to see WCG, the last bastion of the non-Korean BW scene, suddenly be in this terrible situation. WCG restricting Blizzard games does nothing to the Korean BW scene or the foreign SC2 scene, though it will heavily damage the foreign BW scene and result in a lost opportunity to promote the Korean SC2 scene.
It's surprising to see the Blizzard vs KeSPA court case suddenly affect something as global as the WCG. IMO, Samsung is making a bad decision to consider pulling out funds for WCG, especially since it will have a significant impact on all of e-sports.
WCG may have degraded as an event, but historically, it has brought us great matches (Mondragon vs Savior, Flash vs Jaedong in WCG 2010). For many lesser RTSes such as Dawn of War, Command and Conquer, and Age of Empires, WCG was the height and highlight of their popularity as e-sports, and I think it would be detrimental to the global e-sports scene if we lose the opportunity to experiment with an alternative to Starcraft.
IMO, the best case scenario would be if Blizzard makes WCG an exception for OGN and if Samsung retracts their demands to not feature Blizzard games. Heck, I think Samsung was quite childish in their demands since it's obvious that everyone loses if WCG drops Blizzard games.
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If there's anything retarded about e-sports it isn't the nerd stereotype, it's the politics. Seriously what the fuck?
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WCG will probably just die out without any Blizzard games. Unless they solve the whole IP rights thing, they perhaps could make an exemption for just this tournament... Because I believe it is in the interest of both WCG and Blizzard to keep their games in it.
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Someone has to give in at the end of everything. If blizzard and samsung maintains their stand, esports might actually crumble with this year's wcg being the start
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This sucks but Samsung is playing it safe, can't really blame them.
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On February 25 2011 22:54 eviltomahawk wrote:IMO, the best case scenario would be if Blizzard makes WCG an exception for OGN and if Samsung retracts their demands to not feature Blizzard games. Heck, I think Samsung was quite childish in their demands since it's obvious that everyone loses if WCG drops Blizzard games.
Imo if blizzard makes an exception WCG an exception for OGN, they'd put themselves in a bad situation as far as the court case goes, whereas if it was Samsung/OGN that gave in, it'd put OGN/MBC in a bad spot.
The only solution would be Samsung allowing blizzard games withough their being broadcast in Korea, but it's not in their interest as a company whatsoever, not to mention they're part of KeSPA.
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don't see how this can turn out with a positive outcome, seeing how this stuff's being disputed in court already. i'm also scratching my head as to how wcg is supposed to happen at all without blizzard games.
someone's gonna have to make some serious compromises, or come up with a genius solution
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I hope that somehow this gets resolved, but as someone said in this thread earlier, there's alot of RTS' out there that could use some attention, badly.
I doubt the WCG will pick up after the loss of BW and WC3/DotA, though
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Fuck yeah Samsung
Won't miss sc2, and since BW foreigner scene is dead.....
At least there's still CS to watch.
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This is a really complicated and delicate situation.
I can't blame Samsung for this. At least it shows Samsung is pretty committed to the brood war scene and protecting its interest in e-sport.
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No Koreans on WCG, finnaly chance for non-korean to win StarCraft BW ? :D
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I really doubt WCG 2011 are going to be held in Pusan. I heard rumors about China or a possible southern european country (nothing official though)
And WCG and Samsung like Blizzard games, problem is with the OGN broadcast. WCG is a specific branch of Samsung and they were hit hard by the crisis before WCG 2010 grand finals, that s why the prize pool was decrease 2 weeks prior to the event.
I really hope WCG 2011 will be a decent one, because it s always nice to go to this event, but i also do hope to see BW or SC2 and to have CS players far away from the others (because they are very noisy)
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No Koreans on BW? A chance to win for me this time. g2g prepare
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They are killing their own event if they exclude 3 of the most popular games.They should probably drop samsung and find a different sponser.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
This will be the death of WCG to serious RTS players everywhere. On top of that they plan to host in Korea. It's like a slap in the face.
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"Beyond The Game" now has a new meaning.
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Maybe Sony or Microsoft would be interested in picking up WCG. But yeah, Blizzard is sitting pretty here. Either Samsung pays Blizzard and hurts the court case for Kespa against Blizzard or they kill their Starcraft/Warcraft scene and that audience goes to other places like MLG, GOM and NASL which already has Blizzard support. Kespa/Samdung kinda did this to themselves (in regards to WCG).
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I actually never watched WCG, but what games are usually played there other than WC3 and BW? I heard about the qualifiers for my country last year, but didn't even check what games they had.
EDIT: Never mind. I should probably Google it and read. Sorry for wasting space.
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On February 25 2011 22:05 aupstar wrote:
Why should Samsung pay blizzard to advertise their games?
Sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
Well, WCG also advertises Samsung I suppose. And without those three games, WCG will be shit, viewer numbers will drop and there goes the advertisement value.
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And the war escalates. Le sigh.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
On February 26 2011 00:17 Kibibit wrote:
And the war escalates. Le sigh.
Chin up man,everyone knows that its was going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.
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what a shame, starcraft won't be played @ one of the biggest venues of esports, blizzard should be ashamed of themselves
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On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too.
I thought the main reason was not because the tv stations didn't pay any money to blizzard, but that actually KESPA demanded money from the tv stations for broadcasting the BW games?
Anyways, everything's a huge mess in the commercial esports world in Korea, so of course having the event take place in Korea in such a stormy time of the Korean esports scene is a bad idea. They should've postponed the WCG in Korea and instead let it take place in some other country. Who came up with that idea anyways?
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On February 26 2011 00:08 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Kespa/Samdung kinda did this to themselves (in regards to WCG).
...What?
Both sides brought this shitstorm, not just KeSPA/Samsung.
Pro/Con for KeSPA/Samsung: Lawsuit situation. Either way. Samsung doesn't support WCG, no biggie for South Koreans as they know they'll rape SC and possibly WC3. If they support, lawsuit will go towards Blizzard's side.
Pro/Con for Blizzard: If WCG doesn't have Blizzard games, then Blizzard products won't be advertised everywhere, but like you said, there are still strong fan basis off WCG so it wouldn't be a problem. If WCG has Blizzard games, better for Blizzard.
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On February 26 2011 00:25 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 18:25 Whitewing wrote:
Blizzard filed the lawsuit because KESPA and other organizations were refusing to recognize their property rights. In other words, in the mind of Blizzard, they were stealing.
If I made this hugely popular game, and an organization decided to host tournaments, put it on T.V., and make money off the game without consulting me, asking for permission to use the game to earn money, or even recognizing that the game belongs to me, I'd be pissed and probably sue too. I thought the main reason was not because the tv stations didn't pay any money to blizzard, but that actually KESPA demanded money from the tv stations for broadcasting the BW games? Anyways, everything's a huge mess in the commercial esports world in Korea, so of course having the event take place in Korea in such a stormy time of the Korean esports scene is a bad idea. They should've postponed the WCG in Korea and instead let it take place in some other country. Who came up with that idea anyways?
No, the issue wasn't that KeSPA demanded money for broadcasting BW, because they did not. They get money for broadcasting Proleague, which is different from BW (they never demanded any money for OSL or MSL, because they didn't take part in creating it etc.).
The issue was that blizzard were like "either you give us control of everything or else we take our toys and go home". And by "everything" I mean thing like scheduling, VODs, maps, and even players and teams.
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Serves Blizzard right. You go around suiting people who have helped make you money and freely promoted your game and you're bound to have organizations a bit hesitant to feature your games.
Edit:
I will say though, it does kind of suck for the players. And it also sucks not to be able to see what would've been an even more one-sided Brood War WCG since almost no one outside of Korea is playing Brood War these days.
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Man I was hoping for one last WCG with BW
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Maybe it is time to make WCG a more prestigous event. Perhaps host it once every 2 years like the Olympics? It would make for less revenue loss and possibly make it a bigger event.
WCG should look for a new sponsor to take over. When a sponsor holds your event ransom and will ultimatley kill it in the near future, it is time to cut them loose and look else where.
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When we were at WCG grand finals last year they said 2011 would go back to China.....Where did the Korea location get changed to o_O
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i understand both sides here. blizzard is trying to protect their image and their game that they created. They don't want people or companies making massive money and advertising and rating without paying anything for the vehicle they use. imagine if your friend was borrowing your car to sell stuff door to door and made lets say 100k but he isn't giving you gas or a cut. wouldn't that bother you?
On the other hand. Samsung is A. Protecting them selves from being sued. and WGC just wants to play games(while making money i think we can all acknowledge no one goes INTO business to LOSE money) being part of the community and one who loves the passion this game brings i still have the im a kid concept and am like what $$$ for content that sucks. But I guess in the real world investors are needed and laws are needed to keep the investors and the creators protected.
To Court we go...Blizz is using several cases to set Precedent which is much needed in winning a court case. if you can cite precedent you have the upper hand. So if blizz Sets the precedent in future proceedings game companies will have an upper hand in protecting their games. How far it goes to effect big tournaments and a big loving community is yet to be seen.
This is how i see it. I hope i didnt ramble. Good Day
Vinnie
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WCG for the last few years hasnt been the prestigious tournament it used to be anyways. In all honesty there are alot of better tournaments available to players for all 3 games out there.
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What?? I really doubt that WCG would exclude the two biggest RTS games of all time...
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Why are people critizing Samsung for the action? What is the point in sponsoring WCG if Korean representatives can't play in it and it can't be broadcast? If I were them, I'd do the same. There are no reason to sponsor something if the main attraction of the event can't be broadcasted and your products can't be seen worldwide.
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would be the death for WCG imo...
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I don't see why they would have BW or WC3 tournaments anyway. Those games are pretty close to 1-country affairs now (China for WC3, Korea for BW.) It would be like last year's BW all over again where it's only WCG-qualified players playing the game. SC2 would be the obvious choice but it's a competitor to what Samsung is a part of and as such they understandably wouldn't want to spend money on it. If they cut the prizes and presentation a bit they can run a decent show with something like Quake Live, CS, FIFA, LoL, Trackmania and some fighting titles (and of course Carom3D!)
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I love how the samsung event overshadows that Blizzard themselves are suing WCG.
What if samsung does not want the Blizzard games in the WCG due to the lawsuit? Anyone thought of that?
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Japan11285 Posts
I think threatening to remove all blizzard games in WCG by Samsung is more of a statement directed against blizzard. Samsung is basically saying "See what'll happen to you if you bring up this IP rights dispute".
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Putting a conflict before business is unprofessional and foolish. I'm sure Samsung really "socked it" to Blizzard and all, but I won't be watching a crappy event with no good games in it and I'm sure many other people won't bother either. I hope decreased revenue and relevancy is worth their little potshot, but I don't see how they think there's any future in e-sports without Blizzard games being involved.
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On February 26 2011 00:51 Vindubs wrote:
i understand both sides here. blizzard is trying to protect their image and their game that they created. They don't want people or companies making massive money and advertising and rating without paying anything for the vehicle they use. imagine if your friend was borrowing your car to sell stuff door to door and made lets say 100k but he isn't giving you gas or a cut. wouldn't that bother you?
On the other hand. Samsung is A. Protecting them selves from being sued. and WGC just wants to play games(while making money i think we can all acknowledge no one goes INTO business to LOSE money) being part of the community and one who loves the passion this game brings i still have the im a kid concept and am like what $$$ for content that sucks. But I guess in the real world investors are needed and laws are needed to keep the investors and the creators protected.
To Court we go...Blizz is using several cases to set Precedent which is much needed in winning a court case. if you can cite precedent you have the upper hand. So if blizz Sets the precedent in future proceedings game companies will have an upper hand in protecting their games. How far it goes to effect big tournaments and a big loving community is yet to be seen.
This is how i see it. I hope i didnt ramble. Good Day
Vinnie
Bad example about the car stuffs imo. In your example, the person lending the car doesn't gain anything back, however, Blizzard gain a lot of reputation by letting the Korean advertising their products. First, they have to buy the product then host tournament using the product that they bought. By hosting events they in turn make populize your product.
A better example would be. You are an inventor and invented a product. The Korean bought your product and turn it into a spectacular product, in which you profit a lot from sale. Then a decade later, you invented a new product. You don't want the Korean to profit from the old product anymore, you want all the attention to redirect to your new product so that you can gain more sale from it. And that is where we are right now.
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i'll watch CS then, but that really kills the prestige of WCG badly lol
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I don't see what Samsung has to gain by denying Blizzard games, but then again aside from WC3 in China I don't see what WCG would have to gain by having BW and WC3 there, both of those games are dead outside Korea.
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Counterfire against blizzards ridicules demands. This is great.
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Samsung's decision is understandable? Why fund games from they company who's trying to sue them and put an end to broodwar in sk?
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Well, congratulations ActiBlizz. WCG is as good as dead w/o WC3 and SC:BW...though I'll sorely miss JD and Flash tearing all the foreigners apart, I pretty much support Samsung in their decision.
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I'm a sad panda
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On February 25 2011 22:05 aupstar wrote:
Why should Samsung pay blizzard to advertise their games?
Sounds a bit ridiculous to me...
Because that's how the law and the real world works.
You know why Apple has to pay to use a singer's song in their Ipod advertisment? Or why the tv commercials rarely put any products with a name other than their own?
the same reason why kespa and samsung needs to pay blizzard.
"But they are advertising your song in their advertisment too!" is an argument that was never accepted by law or by any means.
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On February 26 2011 01:52 mierin wrote:
Well, congratulations ActiBlizz. WCG is as good as dead w/o WC3 and SC:BW
so you're acting like its blizzards fault that they get excluded from wcg. why so smart?
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understandable still sad for wcg, samsung > blizzard
When big companies fight , usually the fans are the losers.
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Damn I hate corporations, both sides of the arguments are not looking out for the players.
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They're leaving them out because of the ongoing lawsuit. It's a trickle down effect more than anything else. It's about covering your own ass. They don't really have choice until the lawsuit is resolved.
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Lets play CoD on WCG yey ! :D
WCG is the only big tournament for WC3 and not just for it but for every single Blizzards game, they are acting like kids. every one wants money money and money WTF is going on ? I know that this problem is complicating but this is wrong !
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Thats just stupid..
Like 2008 in Germany there were so many asians just to watch Starcraft anf warcraft.. Imagine without those vierwers...
Only CS 1.6 and some other crappy games or what ?
Vote for sc2 and wc3!
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Wow what a terrible decision by Samsung. It doesn't matter if Blizzard is in the right or not, not including BW/WC3/SC2 will kill the event completely.
Retarded.
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I'm thoroughly confused. How many parties are involved in this? I'm sure it's not quite as simple as Samsung vs Blizzard.
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On February 26 2011 02:03 whoso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 01:52 mierin wrote:
Well, congratulations ActiBlizz. WCG is as good as dead w/o WC3 and SC:BW so you're acting like its blizzards fault that they get excluded from wcg. why so smart?
You're right, that was kind of a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I'm much more pissed off at the possible dissolution of proleague than the absence of Blizz games in WCG, so I suppose I'm biased.
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this is such a retarded move by samsung on the surface. i mean, i completely understand it, it's outwardly motivated by the lawsuit, but at the same time, they can't really expect WCG to meet their demands and still function. they have to have some intention by doing this, like, they don't want to sponsor WCG anymore and by doing this they destroy the event, or maybe they just don't care about WCG if it means relying on blizzard games. it's hard for me to believe they could have actually thought this out well and did this intending for WCG to survive at all. WCG has other games, but it loses so much here.
on top of that, it's not something that hurts only blizzard or hurts blizzard more than themselves or WCG. i doubt blizzard could give a crap about WCG right now, they've given up on WC3 and the lawsuit over BW is their only current interest in it, meanwhile they've got a starleague in korea with one in the US popping up while MLG is about to go international with starcraft 2 as one of the flagship games, with leagues in europe too. they have things covered world-wide whether WCG uses their games or not. i'm sure blizzard appreciates the free advertisement, but i highly doubt they invest into it the same way samsung does.
from WCG's standpoint, it seems impossible to have the event without these games and expect to survive, so even though they might have issues paying for an event the magnitude they're used to, i really do think it's in their best interest to find new sponsors. there are people with money everywhere, but there aren't games with competitive notoriety everywhere. it's a lose-lose situation for them though.
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I don't know how you can argue that Samsung is in anyway a victim here. Kespa built a business around throttling esports to other organizations who were using a game not directly supported by the work of Kespa, but by the updates from Blizzard and community free ware. Samsung (who apparently is tied to Kespa) brought this on themselves. I am all for hating on Acti-Blizzard when they drop the ball, but this is squarely a problem Kespa didn't think about when they took on the legal battle.
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United States4126 Posts
The prospect of the first SC2 WCG interests me greatly, so I really hope they solve this drama :/
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Lol, samsung is being played.
The reason is because samsung needs to ask permission from blizzard to broadcast the games, but if they do that, then essentially they are telling blizzard "Yes you own the rights" and OGN is suddenly in a terrible position in their lawsuit.
1. Samsung asks for permission to broadcast blizzard games. Blizzard says ok with fee, OGN loses lawsuit. OGN sues kespa, KESPA loses hundreds of thousands.
2. Samsung doesn't ask for permission. Blizzard sues samsung in US court. Blizzard wins millions.
3. Samsung doesn't show blizzard games. WCG terrible event, no one watches.
#3 is actually the most profitable in the sense that samsung wastes less money than #1 or #2.
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5003 Posts
On February 26 2011 02:40 darmousseh wrote:
Lol, samsung is being played.
The reason is because samsung needs to ask permission from blizzard to broadcast the games, but if they do that, then essentially they are telling blizzard "Yes you own the rights" and OGN is suddenly in a terrible position in their lawsuit.
1. Samsung asks for permission to broadcast blizzard games. Blizzard says ok with fee, OGN loses lawsuit. OGN sues kespa, KESPA loses hundreds of thousands.
2. Samsung doesn't ask for permission. Blizzard sues samsung in US court. Blizzard wins millions.
3. Samsung doesn't show blizzard games. WCG terrible event, no one watches.
#3 is actually the most profitable in the sense that samsung wastes less money than #1 or #2.
samsung has nothing to do with broadcasting.
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Wow this shit is getting retarded, no Blizzard WCG games is gunna be pretty awful especially since SC2 is slowly becoming the most competitive esport game out there.
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Honestly, I dont see why samsung is in the wrong here. There is absolutely no reason WCG should not be able to promote blizzard games on their own... Except for the massive fees blizzard likes to impose on all its corporate users. If Blizzard wasent fighting religiously as they are with their "IP" rights, I'm sure samung would allow the promotion of Blizzard games. But the fact is, blizzard is just looking for the cash. If anything, this stems from blizzards own problem. Do you ever see the developers of Counter-strike going after major corporations for fees and claiming IP rights? Or how about value? Or the creators of the Super Smash series.
Its companies trying to go after more cash beyond the sale of the game that really screw any development of the game.
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On February 26 2011 02:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 02:40 darmousseh wrote:
Lol, samsung is being played.
The reason is because samsung needs to ask permission from blizzard to broadcast the games, but if they do that, then essentially they are telling blizzard "Yes you own the rights" and OGN is suddenly in a terrible position in their lawsuit.
1. Samsung asks for permission to broadcast blizzard games. Blizzard says ok with fee, OGN loses lawsuit. OGN sues kespa, KESPA loses hundreds of thousands.
2. Samsung doesn't ask for permission. Blizzard sues samsung in US court. Blizzard wins millions.
3. Samsung doesn't show blizzard games. WCG terrible event, no one watches.
#3 is actually the most profitable in the sense that samsung wastes less money than #1 or #2. samsung has nothing to do with broadcasting.
No, samsung doesn't have anything to do with broadcasting, but their main broadcasting source is OGN. I imagine they would want to broadcast wcg in korea with OGN. That is the problem.
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sponsorships and lawsuit drama ruining it for those who wants to game n watch
someday it will all blow over... that day is not today
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United States13896 Posts
At this point not having Blizzard games harms WCG way more than it does Blizzard. Sucks for WCG being stuck between Samsung who has supported their organization for years and given them the monetary basis to hold leagues, and between Blizzard who holds IP rights for the games that will bring in the lion's share of fans and viewers. Hope this can be resolved in some way and WCG can still have Blizzard games without a major sponsor shakeup resulting in an even more downsized tournament/organization.
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Yep, it will hurt WCG way way more than it does hurt Blizzard. No way i would watch WCG without any Blizzard title, and i bet there are over 20,000 people who think so as well. CS is half watchable for me, but i wouldn't watch WCG only for CS.
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Can't OGN just broadcast the event regardless? They have been for BW all this time, and Blizzard has been letting them since they never filed an injunction. So yeah, why now?
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why do they have to act like children
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Wow that sucks. I guess they'll have Dota but that's boring to watch IMO. Well, i guess i'll stick to MLG if this happens. WCG is likely to disappear anytime soon imo. The organization is just falling apart.
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Guess what blizzard did was to shot the fans, WCG, Samsung, Esports and themselves in the foot. All in one shot.
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Wow, this is pretty ridiculous and I'm not even sure why it has to come to this.
I'm pretty sure this is going to be in the back of my head next time a Samsung product is one of my available choices. The whole situation is just really dumb.
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My view is simple, let them try doing a WCG without Blizzard games and see how many people pay to come (answer: very very few) as all the other games selected at WCG are massively dwarfed by the competitive scene surrounding Blizzard games.
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without sc it's going to be a shit turnout, I hope they change their mind.
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cant believe ppl are wondering why samsung is doing this. btw didnt samsung hand over WCG to microsoft couple of years ago?
time blizzard got a taste of their own medicine. just go back to making money by selling games instead of trying to control and pocket from esports directly. don't be too greedy cos you're stunting the scene.
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If only I could post one-liners I would simply just say LOLOLOLOLOL
Blizzard screwed themselves -.- and in association, every Blizzard game fan out there. Stupid IP rights.
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Why are people saying Blizzard screwed themselves? Granted, this may lock them out of more future tournaments later on, but the professional scene to play Blizzard games is already there and Blizzard's ultimate control of their IP rights ensures that they get more net profit from that than from any unascertainable growth from advertising that WCG and the like gives them.
Now if they were struggling to get advertisers and professionals invested in their games, then the battle over IP rights may have screwed Blizzard. I haven't seen any evidence of that though so Blizzard looks to have made the right business decision by going to war for the IP rights.
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Hmmmmm, this spells disaster for WCG, bar the CS competition. Even if Blizzard is partly to blame, they are so big and already in a much bigger tournamente like GSL I really don't see them crying too much over this.
This is sad for WCG, such a long standing and nice event to watch every year
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WCG will be pretty boring without proper RTS titles to me =/
Well Fifa and CS are still there which is good, because germany is known for their good teams there, but its not the same as cheering for your favorite players in an RTS =/
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When will this be confirmed or denied??????
Updates would be lovely, sirs.
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Thank you my dearest mr kotick, you are now murdering everything Esports have accomplished to this point simply because a couple of bucks, i honestly cant wait for the sue to end in korea(and actiblizz to lose ofc) and dota 2 to be released so WC3 has no players left.
All my support and my best wishes to WCG so they can find a way out of this, having a WCG without koreans is completely nonsense and they know it, the problem is that BW is one of the only games arround that is a good spectator sport. So ill just hope for the best again while a conclusion is made.
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On February 26 2011 02:47 Energizer wrote:
Do you ever see the developers of Counter-strike going after major corporations for fees and claiming IP rights?
Yes, Valve in fact does charge for IP rights/fees for the use of their games. So do the companies that make fighting games.
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Huh, so this means that WCG will die ?! I mean, who would watch it ?! Besides CS, which is not my cup of tea, but I watch it anyways, coz it's eSports, there isn't anything else to watch. And if it's going to be CS only, then I might not bother watching it at all. I mean I got all the other jazz to follow - MSL, IEM, TSL, NASL, GSL, MSL, OSL and so on.
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United States7483 Posts
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product.
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On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product.
exactly, and if im not mistaken its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights.
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Damn so samsung wants to end WCG but doesn't want it to be their fault. awesome. never buying samsung. why does kespa try to ruin everything if they can't control it?
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what happens if blizzard decides to change their mind about wanting $1 and start asking for more?
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No SC? And they're hosting in Korea?
Well, i think every single SC fan in Korea is about to pick a side, if they haven't already.
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On February 26 2011 06:05 IamAnton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product. exactly, and if im not mistaking its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights.
it's about this
[4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty :
Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play." was the original English on that article
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188322
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yea who'd want a transition from SC1 to SC2 AFTER the IP rights violation. Blizzard has alot more control over SC2 via Having to play online. Really you can blame Kespa for there being no LAN in the first place for SC2.
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On February 26 2011 06:18 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 06:05 IamAnton wrote:On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product. exactly, and if im not mistaking its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights. it's about this Show nested quote +[4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty :
Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becomes available for play." was the original English on that article http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188322
That was put out there after the case started and was the contract with GOM not Kespa. The court case is based on Kespa controling Blizzards game and charging for tournaments and what not. Basically making money with Blizzard's product, they don't deny this. The Soccer ball analogy was thrown around. Although IMO it is quite different, since a soccer ball manufacturer wipes theirs hands clean of the product once is it packaged away, while Blizzard maintains servers/updates/support etc. Among other things.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I guess it was a bit naïve to assume that Blizzard's intransigence wouldn't have consequences outside of the Korean BW scene. This is a real shame though. I was hoping for all three games...
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On February 26 2011 06:05 IamAnton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product. exactly, and if im not mistaken its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights.
If you follow the issue correctly, you wouldn't be so fast to blame kespa. Hosting tournament is 1 cent, but broadcasting it is some ridiculous amount of money that will put Kespa and the broadcasting station into deficit. That is why they couldn't agree on the term. If it's that easy like you guys said, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
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On February 26 2011 06:49 Nukid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 06:05 IamAnton wrote:On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product. exactly, and if im not mistaken its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights. If you follow the issue correctly, you wouldn't be so fast to blame kespa. Hosting tournament is 1 cent, but broadcasting it is some ridiculous amount of money that will put Kespa and the broadcasting station into deficit. That is why they couldn't agree on the term. If it's that easy like you guys said, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
To add to that, if broadcasters pay the said amount, the one who holds the rights (GOM) can charge bigger after the 1st contract ends. Lets say 300,000,000 won for the 1st year, if OGN/MBC accepted these terms, by the next year or upon the end of the current contract, GOM can charge them a way lot more for broadcasting SC1 thus making it harder for OGN/MBC to broadcast SC1 and ultimately destroy the scene altogether.
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just wanna add that that samsung is kinda umbrella
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Why you all say it's about respecting blizzard rights ? They respect their rights. But Blizzard doesn't respect the IP rights of the map creators, they don't respect the rights of players and organisations that make this tourneys and produce this games(shows). Blizzard want from KESPA to switch to SC2, they are not about any sc ip rights they are about taking it over. Blizzard sold the rights to gom for $1 becouse blizzard want greetech to represent them in korean court to fights against ogn/mbc. I'm sure blizzard don't want SC:BW in WCG but only SC2. Anyway, I respect blizzard but they are realy just too much into getting money for other people's efforts... Nothing is wrong if they host their own blizzard tournaments and leagues and broadcast them. But they should not try take over the control of what others have done in the pass years just becouse they made the game.
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Childish and sad, but Starcraft doesn't need WCG that much anymore.
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This isn't really as important as it used to be. Obviously I would love to see Blizz games in WCG, but the recent development of other major tournaments that foreigners can compete in mean that WCG isn't the only major tournament for us anymore.
I still hope they figure something out.
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urgh.. I don't even want to watch WCG with the exception of counterstrike if blizzard doesn't get in.
Pretty ugly turn out
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On February 26 2011 06:53 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 06:49 Nukid wrote:On February 26 2011 06:05 IamAnton wrote:On February 26 2011 05:54 Whitewing wrote:
Didn't Blizzard give broadcasting rights to GOM tv for $1 to use SC2 in their tournaments and make money off of it?
They're not looking for money here, they just want companies to recognize that it's their product. exactly, and if im not mistaken its 1 cent for people in korea to host there own tournaments of sc bw/sc2/wc3 ect aswell. it was never about the money. infact if you read prior TL articles it showed Kespa offered more money then what was asked for by Blizzard and GomTV, with control still being entirely Kespa. Blaming Blizzard for Kespa's clear wrong doing and now mbc/ogn's lawsuit issue is kind of rediculous. It was never about money, the entire ordeal was about getting companies like OGN/MBC/Kespa to respect Blizzards IP rights. If you follow the issue correctly, you wouldn't be so fast to blame kespa. Hosting tournament is 1 cent, but broadcasting it is some ridiculous amount of money that will put Kespa and the broadcasting station into deficit. That is why they couldn't agree on the term. If it's that easy like you guys said, then we wouldn't be in this mess. To add to that, if broadcasters pay the said amount, the one who holds the rights (GOM) can charge bigger after the 1st contract ends. Lets say 300,000,000 won for the 1st year, if OGN/MBC accepted these terms, by the next year or upon the end of the current contract, GOM can charge them a way lot more for broadcasting SC1 thus making it harder for OGN/MBC to broadcast SC1 and ultimately destroy the scene altogether.
While the general idea behind it is right, the argument being made here is part stupid, part intense paranoia. There's a massive difference between being CAPABLE of doing something, and it being a good decision at all to do something.
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Good luck getting people to attend/notice WCG without blizzard games.
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This doesn't even hurt Blizzard in the slightest.
Also can anyone tell me which company is bigger? IMG or Samsung?
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Won't this be counter productive from WCG's part, blizzard games is really popular in Asia so they gonna lose a lot of viewers and support.
I still don't know why people still blaming blizzard about this, even though sc2 is up that doesn't mean BW doesn't belong to them anymore.
Anyways I want to see Blizzard response to this, they probably say "care cup is empty c[_]"
They should hold blizzard cup the same date as WCG
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On February 26 2011 01:28 SolidusR wrote:
Putting a conflict before business is unprofessional and foolish. I'm sure Samsung really "socked it" to Blizzard and all, but I won't be watching a crappy event with no good games in it and I'm sure many other people won't bother either. I hope decreased revenue and relevancy is worth their little potshot, but I don't see how they think there's any future in e-sports without Blizzard games being involved.
Yeah man, Samsung is totally hurt not having to spend millions of dollars for an e-sports event when their main business is consumer electronics. Hate to break it to you but outside of a handful of Blizzard fanboys, no one is going to stop buying/using Samsung products because of this.
On February 26 2011 02:01 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 22:05 aupstar wrote:
Why should Samsung pay blizzard to advertise their games?
Sounds a bit ridiculous to me... Because that's how the law and the real world works. You know why Apple has to pay to use a singer's song in their Ipod advertisment? Or why the tv commercials rarely put any products with a name other than their own? the same reason why kespa and samsung needs to pay blizzard. "But they are advertising your song in their advertisment too!" is an argument that was never accepted by law or by any means.
People need to stop with analogies. That is not strictly how the "law and the real world works"--these things aren't just a one-way street. For example, Riot Games is a sponsor of WCG so that League of Legends is played there.
On February 26 2011 04:34 bovi wrote:
cant believe ppl are wondering why samsung is doing this. btw didnt samsung hand over WCG to microsoft couple of years ago?
Microsoft was a sponsor of WCG for a few years and then they stopped. Presumably because they don't give a shit about PC games anymore.
On February 26 2011 05:37 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 02:47 Energizer wrote:
Do you ever see the developers of Counter-strike going after major corporations for fees and claiming IP rights? Yes, Valve in fact does charge for IP rights/fees for the use of their games. So do the companies that make fighting games.
Outside of Blizzard and Valve, I've never heard of any company require fees to use their games. Source for Namco Bandai, Capcom, and Arc System Works charging for using their games in tournaments.
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I get this from Samsung's point of view.
Still, WCG will fail without Blizzard.
I'm not worried either way, or we'll hear nothing from this again (I think this will happen) and everything will go as last year.
Or for some magical reason samsung gets their way and Blizzard will laugh and there are other tourneys who will gladly catch it and we'll still get the games.
WCG will fail without Blizzard, but Blizzard's games won't fail without WCG.
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Lol... This is pathetic. I always liked the WCG but without blizzard games, this event means NOTHING to me.
I'm playing Blizzard games using a Samsung monitor... Hopefully my computer won't start acting like a disturbed child and throw a tantrum.
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Samsung sounds like it's just blundering about swinging wildly at anything.
They have a widely popular BW team that's star player Stork is just a fan by everyone and yet they don't want Brood war at WCG..
WCG is nearly wrecked from the economic downturn and Samsung wants it to do it's thing without having more then likely at least 2 of the top three titles at the event. It's like Samsung is just purposely trying to wreck WCG. It makes no sense unless they just want to make sure WCG is delt with.
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I hope this will kill WCG so one of the new tournaments like IEM or MLG can start taking over the scene. WCG has been shoddily run for years now and only got away with it because they were the only organisation with big corporate backing and they hype every main event. Local WCG tournaments though are often craptastic.
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Wow that would be a huge shame. Hope it doesn't happen.
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I was in the market for a new phone, but I think I'll avoid a samsung this time around. 
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CA10825 Posts
so much blind samsung hate in this thread.
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Please please please have BW and CS 1.6. Don't care about any other games.
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On February 25 2011 16:46 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 16:46 TheOnly92 wrote:
Why is Samsung against starcraft and etc? I can't understand Made even more perplexing because they sponsor a BW team. Sad.
Being part of KeSPA kinda forces them to take that stance. KeSPA has forced teams to exclude players from the Blizzard-sponsored GOM tournaments. Basically the entire situation is a shitstorm, and WCG was in it the entire time - we just weren't aware of it because there was so much shit in the air.
I wonder how much of the lawsuit is Activision and how much of it is Blizzard... I think both sides are at fault and that the sport and the fans suffer the consequences.
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i think the most watched wcg because of bw and if it isnt in i think wcg will die
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So they are taking out the best two games out of the event...
Without these two, games left in decreasing enjoyment are CS, FIFA (yep, this is the second one now) and bunch of cell phone games.
They need to include at least BW and WC3 as they are the main games. Yeah, the issue about copyright is messy right now. But if they don't include these two games, might as well shut down WCG for this year.
To be honest, how can they get people to come and only watch CS and FIFA...
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On February 26 2011 08:03 LosingID8 wrote:
so much blind samsung hate in this thread.
i agree. i always loved samsung products and they have sponsored starcraft in its purest form for several years. if there is anyone to hate and point the finger at, it should be blizzard for bullying kespa around and creating this mess.
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sigh and the fight for ip rights continues
man why cant we just buy blizz games and do what we want with them? I mean I/we did all pay money right? Like unless blizz has a contract when I purchase the game explicitly saying, "when you buy this you can not use this," i have no idea why this is even still an argument
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I didn't even know WCG played other games besides the Blizzard games and Counter Strike, lol.
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On February 26 2011 08:36 gk_ender wrote:
sigh and the fight for ip rights continues
man why cant we just buy blizz games and do what we want with them? I mean I/we did all pay money right? Like unless blizz has a contract when I purchase the game explicitly saying, "when you buy this you can not use this," i have no idea why this is even still an argument
It is not about you. The copyright thing has to do with private use only and not generating profit from the game (what WCG is doing).
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My god that's so awful.
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Blizzard shouldn't wreck kespa or wcg unless they can provide superior services to replace them. As it stands right now, all they have to offer is their poorly constructed battle.net ladder system that fails to deliver the basic necessities needed for determining a players actual ranking (inexcusable things like a repungently stagnant map pool and the inability for cross realm play).
So until then, jog on blizzard, and try not to choke on the fucking billions you've already made. Revolution is in the air for our generation and you are starting to piss us off.
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On February 26 2011 09:00 ZaplinG wrote:
Blizzard shouldn't wreck kespa or wcg unless they can provide superior services to replace them. As it stands right now, all they have to offer is their poorly constructed battle.net ladder system that fails to deliver the basic necessities needed for determining a players actual ranking (inexcusable things like a repungently stagnant map pool and the inability for cross realm play).
So until then, fuck off blizzard, and try not to choke on the billions of profit you've already made.
I doubt it's about money, remember they placed a 1 (yes, ONE) dollar fee on some legal thing to make this work. It's about private property being used to generate money unauthorized by the copyright owners. This is a crime like, everywhere in the world, except maybe in south america (we love our pirate distributors), but then again companies don't mind what happens here.
That doesn't mean I agree with what they did, I'd need to analyze it further to give an informed opinion, but up to now, with what I've read, it doesn't seem to be about money. Hell, blizz makes much more money than it needs only with wow.
I think blizz doesn't even care, they're starting to advertise other events and the real loser is WCG, especially considering they play in Asia. WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO WATCH WCG ONLY FOR CS???.. I mean.. it's a pretty good game, but blizz' RTSs make the bulk of the action and the viewership. Seems like a pretty shitty desperate move by samsung to try to impose something. It won't work, I don't think Blizz will bite.
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On February 26 2011 08:36 gk_ender wrote:
sigh and the fight for ip rights continues
man why cant we just buy blizz games and do what we want with them? I mean I/we did all pay money right? Like unless blizz has a contract when I purchase the game explicitly saying, "when you buy this you can not use this," i have no idea why this is even still an argument
you make a contract every time you buy a game.
You might want to read the stuff that you just skip through when you install a game
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On February 26 2011 08:03 LosingID8 wrote:
so much blind samsung hate in this thread.
it reminds me of the IP rights issue and when sc2 came out, soo much blind SC2 and blizzard hate.
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blizzard will win this war and they know it.
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KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports grow, let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets.
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People keep saying that Blizzard is not gaining anything from this. They are not of course running a BW league of their own that can compete with any of the ones in question. They are however running a huge SC2 league, and probably other leagues which are paying royalties, which are very much in competition with those BW leagues. Just think of all the extra revenue Bliz would be bringing in if SC2 was the only game around anymore, instead of having to compete with this huge mafia organization, KeSPA, that basically highjacked their older game and sells it as their own. Remember that Blizzard tried to run their own competing BW league, the GomTV Invitational, but KeSPA shut them the fuck down by forcing all of the top athletes to boycott the league, specifically and explicitly because it was sponsored by Blizzard.
And all this talk about how Blizzard is making "enough" money already, and how they should just "make us happy" is making me sick. Blizzard has the right to make as much or as little money as they want and the right to please or piss off whoever they want, because it's their game. Having bought a copy of the game from them, you have the right to play it. Not to burn copies of it and sell it on the street. Not the right to run a sponsored tournament they don't approve of. Not to force Blizzard to run such a tournament for your enjoyment. Not to force Blizzard to approve of someone else running such a League that you already enjoy.
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On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets.
For the nth time, Samsung is part of Kespa...
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On February 26 2011 10:02 zobz wrote:
People keep saying that Blizzard is not gaining anything from this. They are not of course running a BW league of their own that can compete with any of the ones in question. They are however running a huge SC2 league, and probably other leagues which are paying royalties, which are very much in competition with those BW leagues. Just think of all the extra revenue Bliz would be bringing in if SC2 was the only game around anymore, instead of having to compete with this huge mafia organization, KeSPA, that basically highjacked their older game and sells it as their own. Remember that Blizzard tried to run their own competing BW league, the GomTV Invitational, but KeSPA shut them the fuck down by forcing all of the top athletes to boycott the league, specifically and explicitly because it was sponsored by Blizzard.
And all this talk about how Blizzard is making "enough" money already, and how they should just "make us happy" is making me sick. Blizzard has the right to make as much or as little money as they want and the right to please or piss off whoever they want, because it's their game. Having bought a copy of the game from them, you have the right to play it. Not to burn copies of it and sell it on the street. Not the right to run a sponsored tournament they don't approve of. Not to force Blizzard to run such a tournament for your enjoyment. Not to force Blizzard to approve of someone else running such a League that you already enjoy.
This. Blizzard wants to ensure that there is an incentive to actually be able to make great games and make a profit off of them. It's a company, not a charity. Losing rights to IP is a deterrent to them making games and goes against what I would assume are the company's long term goals. Everyone is worried about BW leagues dying and that's a legitimate concern but shouldn't we also worry about the companies that actually produce the games and push e-sports forward though design?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
On February 26 2011 09:36 Phanekim wrote:
blizzard will win this war and they know it.
you have no idea of the ramifications,of their victory.
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Blizzard's fault for being so anal about how and where people play their games. This all began with the removal of the LAN feature. Blizzard is basically saying, you will only play my games when, where and how I want to. Very nice from a corporate perspective but utter bullshit for us gamers.
In a way, I'm glad SAMSUNG is blocking Blizzard from participating in the WCG, I can only hope that this will somehow lead to a 'loosening' of the obstacles Blizzard has put in place for SC2 events to happen without its knowledge and/or supervision.
I hate Vivendi and I hate Activision, they're turning Blizzard into a profits-mongering machine rapidly stripping the company of what made it successful in the first place.
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On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets.
Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going.
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On February 26 2011 11:39 Suvorov wrote:
Blizzard's fault for being so anal about how and where people play their games. This all began with the removal of the LAN feature. Blizzard is basically saying, you will only play my games when, where and how I want to. Very nice from a corporate perspective but utter bullshit for us gamers.
In a way, I'm glad SAMSUNG is blocking Blizzard from participating in the WCG, I can only hope that this will somehow lead to a 'loosening' of the obstacles Blizzard has put in place for SC2 events to happen without its knowledge and/or supervision.
I hate Vivendi and I hate Activision, they're turning Blizzard into a profits-mongering machine rapidly stripping the company of what made it successful in the first place. When you create something you own it, and you decide who you give it to and on what terms you give it to them. If someone doesn't like your terms it's also their right not to deal with you. Blizzard gave you their game on the explicit terms that, first, you pay 20 bucks for it, and second you not try and profit from it without consulting them. It's one thing to say that you don't like their terms or that you grudgingly accept them. It's another thing to say that it's not right for them to give away what they own on whichever terms they choose. To say that, because you disagree with their terms, that gives you a right to lie and steal your way into ownership of their property, is utterly retarded.
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I hate seeing esports used as a purely consumption-driven business venture like how samsung pushes everything around the event.
Ugh.
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Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys.
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Who created the game that OGN and MBC used to grow E sports?
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On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys.
This. So many people above just don't get it
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On February 26 2011 12:04 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets. Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going.
[citation required]
They'd just pull the BW servers and send C&D letters to all the illegal servers such as ICCup if they wanted to really kill the BW fanbase. Also BW has helped eSports all it could, clinging to it now is just gonna kill other potential new great games besides SC2.
KeSPA doesn't even care about other games, they seem them as a threat to to their BW milking via the illegal broadcast fees they get. They know Blizzard will win the within a year, maybe two at the most and they're just gonna suck as much as possible.
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On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys.
I thought the BW scene was created because of PC Bang owners who wanted the best players in their netcafes to bring in more excitement/competition which in turns brings more people to the cafe. These PC Bang owners formed the clans, which turned into teams then created Kespa to think about players rights. I mean I wasn't around during those times though so I have no real bearing, this is just what I remember from reading.
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On February 26 2011 13:38 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:04 supernovamaniac wrote:On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets. Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going. [citation required]They'd just pull the BW servers and send C&D letters to all the illegal servers such as ICCup if they wanted to really kill the BW fanbase. Also BW has helped eSports all it could, clinging to it now is just gonna kill other potential new great games besides SC2. KeSPA doesn't even care about other games, they seem them as a threat to to their BW milking via the illegal broadcast fees they get. They know Blizzard will win the within a year, maybe two at the most and they're just gonna suck as much as possible.
citation needed??
did you read the demands in court by blizzard??
On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote:Brief Summary of what happened in the first court session - MBC Game requested that Blizzard post a collateral [1]
- MBC also requested that the case be classified a bit more specific than Blizzard's case for simple IP rights violation, and the judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related
- MBC and OGN will be defended together in this case
- The judge asked "isn't this something that should end via negotiation". Blizzard Lawyer responded "Yes", and the MBC lawyer responded that they would prefer a decision -- because this is the first case regarding game IP rights, they would like to figure out the legal boundaries of how much of the game they an use.
- Blizzard is suing MBC for 350,000,000 won.
Second session took place today on the 28th. Some notes. - MBC Game responded to the prosecution's IP right violation argument with various arguments that claimed what they were doing was lawful. They also requested the original contract between Gretech and Blizzard [2] questioning Gretech's authority to form contracts.
- The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages.
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
- The defendants also pointed out that the English contracts between Gretech and Blizzard included an article about a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2 [4], and requested that the prosecution explain themselves, as it strange for Blizzard to claim rights to a BW, as Blizzard had no intentions to hold Brood War tournaments. The judges also ordered that this happen, and Blizzard lawyers answered "They cannot address that in the middle of the lawsuit"
- Third trial will take place on March 18th.
Translation Notes [1] apparently MBC is allowed to request this in the case where the opposing party is foreign -- basically, if MBC wins the case, Blizzard will have to compensate MBC for the law fees [2] Blizzard is implied, not 100% sure [3] I'm thinking there's an error here -- since it refers to prosecution, so it would relate to Gretech/Blizzard, but the article claims MBC/OGN. [4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty :
Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that articleSources: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13438&id=581185http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=546149&category=102http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=39412
no care for other games??
they have other games beside SC:BW under their wings (SF, Tekken) ..
people need to follow what happened at the courts before this WCG fiasco before posting stuff like these ..
+ Show Spoiler +
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OK It's time for WCG to dissolve and for someone else to come in a create a whole new model. Someone needs to sit at the table with Blizzard and design an entire new concept so that there can truly be a global Broodwar, Warcraft III and Starcraft II offline championship!!!
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Maybe wcg should reach sony to see if they want to sponsor them.
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On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys.
Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be.
Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't:
SPORTS
1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision
2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially
3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone
4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them
5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining
E-SPORTS (SC2 namely)
1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision
2.- Can only play officially through b.net
3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard
4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues
5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there
Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc.
How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it?
Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game?
Did you ever fix the b.net ladder?
Did you ever organize a real tournament?
Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw?
Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
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On February 26 2011 13:48 aimaimaim wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2011 13:38 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:04 supernovamaniac wrote:On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets. Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going. [citation required]They'd just pull the BW servers and send C&D letters to all the illegal servers such as ICCup if they wanted to really kill the BW fanbase. Also BW has helped eSports all it could, clinging to it now is just gonna kill other potential new great games besides SC2. KeSPA doesn't even care about other games, they seem them as a threat to to their BW milking via the illegal broadcast fees they get. They know Blizzard will win the within a year, maybe two at the most and they're just gonna suck as much as possible. citation needed?? did you read the demands in court by blizzard?? On January 28 2011 15:26 Milkis wrote:Brief Summary of what happened in the first court session - MBC Game requested that Blizzard post a collateral [1]
- MBC also requested that the case be classified a bit more specific than Blizzard's case for simple IP rights violation, and the judges also requested that Blizzard submit any precedent cases regarding IP rights violations in America that is related
- MBC and OGN will be defended together in this case
- The judge asked "isn't this something that should end via negotiation". Blizzard Lawyer responded "Yes", and the MBC lawyer responded that they would prefer a decision -- because this is the first case regarding game IP rights, they would like to figure out the legal boundaries of how much of the game they an use.
- Blizzard is suing MBC for 350,000,000 won.
Second session took place today on the 28th. Some notes. - MBC Game responded to the prosecution's IP right violation argument with various arguments that claimed what they were doing was lawful. They also requested the original contract between Gretech and Blizzard [2] questioning Gretech's authority to form contracts.
- The key point of the trial was related to who the damages would be paid to, the duration of the damages, and the compensation. This is because even though Gretech only got a license on May, Blizzard and Gretech both requested compensation from damages. In response, the Judges ordered that the damages be split between the prosecuting parties [3], and that they recalculate the amount requested and the duration of the damages and then resubmit the damages.
- The judge also ordered the prosecution to prove the fact that defendants had violated IP rights.
- The defendants also pointed out that the English contracts between Gretech and Blizzard included an article about a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2 [4], and requested that the prosecution explain themselves, as it strange for Blizzard to claim rights to a BW, as Blizzard had no intentions to hold Brood War tournaments. The judges also ordered that this happen, and Blizzard lawyers answered "They cannot address that in the middle of the lawsuit"
- Third trial will take place on March 18th.
Translation Notes [1] apparently MBC is allowed to request this in the case where the opposing party is foreign -- basically, if MBC wins the case, Blizzard will have to compensate MBC for the law fees [2] Blizzard is implied, not 100% sure [3] I'm thinking there's an error here -- since it refers to prosecution, so it would relate to Gretech/Blizzard, but the article claims MBC/OGN. [4] "Transition to StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty :
Organizer will use its best efforts to make smooth transition from Starcraft I to Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty and its expansions("Starcraft2") and to make smooth transition of professional players from Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2 from the time Starcraft 2 becoms available for play." was the original English on that articleSources: http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?category=13438&id=581185http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=546149&category=102http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=39412 no care for other games?? they have other games beside SC:BW under their wings (SF, Tekken) .. people need to follow what happened at the courts before this WCG fiasco before posting stuff like these .. + Show Spoiler +
The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition.
And though KeSPA administers other games, their main focus has always been BW, and their attention on other games is negligible compared to that of BW.
Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. The current lawsuit is the result of a few key disagreements that were never really addressed since the beginning of the negotiations.
Plus, it seems that Blizzard's tournament "fees" are mainly limited to the Korean broadcasting stations. It seems that all other tournaments and organizations never complain about it, probably because most of them almost never have to deal with fees in the first place.
Anyways, Samsung is really damaging e-sports with their decision. Without Blizzard games or Samsung's support, WCG is pretty much dead, which is a huge blow to e-sports since it will be detrimental to a lot of other non-Blizzard games. Samsung is making a huge statement at a huge cost.
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On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition.
Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience).
Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008.
Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;;
Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns.
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When everybody wants everything nobody gets anything.
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On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard.
Thing is everyone has to go through gretech...which adds some uncertainty.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
This post is pure gold. I love you man.
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On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Show nested quote +Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns.
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth.
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On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
It was specifically related to Proleague, not "BW tournaments" in general and they do own Proleague unless you think Blizzard owns everything their product is used for. MBC's MSL and OGN's OSL were still being broadcasted and played--sorta. Also, EULAs aren't, and never have been, legally binding.
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On February 26 2011 22:01 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
It was specifically related to Proleague, not "BW tournaments" in general and they do own Proleague unless you think Blizzard owns everything their product is used for. MBC's MSL and OGN's OSL were still being broadcasted and played--sorta. Also, EULAs aren't, and never have been, legally binding.
well try selling self made copys of games then you'll see pretty fast how binding a EULA is.
KeSPA owns proleague that's right, but KeSPA does not own the right to use Proleague and with that StarCraft to make money with it. In order to do that they would have to ask Blizzard if they are allowed to use their product for that.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title.
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On February 26 2011 22:12 Raelgar wrote:
well try selling self made copys of games then you'll see pretty fast how binding a EULA is.
You get owned for breaking the law not EULA .
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end user license agreement
license that's the point you got a license to use the game for your enjoyment not a free pass to do what ever you want with it
the EULA is part of the law, not some different entity that has nothing to do with the law.
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On February 25 2011 16:45 GTR wrote:
Rumors flying around on several sites that Busan will be hosting this years WCG.
And yeh, problems relating to Blizzard were bound to happen sooner or later. Will be interesting how this ends up.
Busan is a beautiful city, right near the coast. But I'm glad that the biggest international e-sports tournament is biting Blizzard's ass. A lesson in karma I would say.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
Awesome post! +++!!
(This site needs a + - vote function for posts)
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On February 26 2011 13:38 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:04 supernovamaniac wrote:On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets. Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going. [citation required] They'd just pull the BW servers and send C&D letters to all the illegal servers such as ICCup if they wanted to really kill the BW fanbase. Also BW has helped eSports all it could, clinging to it now is just gonna kill other potential new great games besides SC2. KeSPA doesn't even care about other games, they seem them as a threat to to their BW milking via the illegal broadcast fees they get. They know Blizzard will win the within a year, maybe two at the most and they're just gonna suck as much as possible.
You need to keep up with what's happening
If you're still clueless go read the second Blizzard vs MBC/OGN case
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On February 26 2011 22:32 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title.
If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure.
Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience).
Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread.
It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
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Plenty of organizations are holding events just fine. This is a problem with Samsung. If the problem was Blizzard, other organizations wouldn't be using Blizzard games either.
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On February 27 2011 01:55 StimedPylon wrote:
If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure.
It's more like strategy plays the same role in both games, but mechanical skill plays less of a role in SC2 than SC:BW. Throw in the lack of LAN in SC2, which is pretty ridiculous for a serious competitive game and I'd say that SC2 is absolutely inferior in several respects despite the fact that I do feel it has improved in certain aspects such as observer tools. Honestly I don't know where this "SC2 is more about strategy." argument came from, but it's simply not true. Perhaps it just seems that way because SC2 is a younger game that's still undergoing balance changes and in the process of being "figured out".
Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread.
It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
I'm really not sure why people are turning KeSPA into villains for not allowing their players to play in a competing league, particularly one that's being supported by a company that seems hell bent on destroying them. What would any sensible organization do in that situation? Would you fault the NFL for not allowing their players to play in the XFL (if it still existed)? Of course not. It's a ridiculous argument.
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big corporations like blizzard and Samsung always screw users for their own business interests.
I hope WCG don't host blizzard games and be a failure for both blizzard and samsung and wake up and start praying to consumers instead of screwing them.
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On February 27 2011 03:28 thehitman wrote:
big corporations like blizzard and Samsung always screw users for their own business interests.
I hope WCG don't host blizzard games and be a failure for both blizzard and samsung and wake up and start praying to consumers instead of screwing them.
I don't think Samsung cares all that much if WCG is a failure. Between Blizzard and Samsung, Blizzard has more to lose here. Of course the WCG itself has the most to lose either way since it's essentially a choice between preserving their biggest sponsor or keeping their biggest games. Either way, they're pretty screwed here.
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This KeSPA/Blizzard/SC2 nonsense seems to be complicating a lot of tournaments/proposed tournaments.
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Fuck the Facebook movie, lets make one of this.
I wonder if the pros have said anything regarding the blizzard request of not being able to represent Korea in the WCG (In case SC gets accepted). Maybe they just dont care hard enough?
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On February 27 2011 01:55 StimedPylon wrote:
Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread.
It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
Self-brainwashing as KeSPA supporter is also a powerful thing.
I COULD point out where you're wrong here and there, but that will just paint me as another KeSPA supporter according to your standards. So I'll say this once: Go back, read all the court sessions, as well as backgrounds of the cases. You're either missing a lot here, or ignoring a lot of facts.
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This is Samsung man !!! Samsung is showing them how this is done. It would be even better if BW is included and everything else from blizz is not. Still, it's quite good news for me.
On February 25 2011 19:56 yammeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 19:20 Milkyst wrote:On February 25 2011 16:56 TheOnly92 wrote:
This is just ridiculous, the corporate world is trying to destroy everything! Simply quite speechless about all of their actions, afterall what ogn does is promoting BW, why is Blizzard suing anyway? ogn promotes BW, but is also making money off Blizzard's game. Blizzard wants money. I thought Blizzard was only asking for 1 dollar a year or something ridiculous like that? But that might just be hear say. Anyways I thought it wasn't about money but that Blizzard wanted OGN to recognize that everything they're making money off of is technically intellectual property of Blizzard.
They want 1 dollar for hosting ~700 tournaments and ~70.000 dollars for broadcasting a single tournament on TV from OGN and MBC. Hosting tournaments don't create problems, broadcasting on TV creates problems. At least for Blizz. I'm happy with KeSPA/OGN/MBC. Gom's service just sucks and their premium service is worse than OGN's free counterpart.
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On February 26 2011 20:52 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. This post is pure gold. I love you man.
wow I love all of you so much, that is so true. And ppl like Iamanton (or whatever) and Whitewing.... TL member since last october....? Please just - dont participate when you clearly dont know what you are talking about.
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If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure.
yeah I see mr:
User name StimedPylon
Photo None uploaded.
Joined TL.net Saturday, 29th of January 2011
You REALLY know what you are talking about after all that time on TL. You are super dedicated I see, you must be right.
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Way to kill the wave Samsung.
No offence to all pro cs/halo/shooter lovers, I love fps's myself and am one of Europas best TF2 players. But man I can't stand their constant shouting and general jocky attitude. You don't have to mimic a shy korean in style, but constantly shouting, roaring and generally overreaction to every moment of the game pisses me off: Especially because shooters are mostly more luck than RTS; You can almost always scout in a RTS, you can't ever be 100% prepared for a player to suddenly hjump out from a crate behind you.
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I forgot to add some interesting points:
If Blizzard is so in favour of promoting e-sports as a whole, explain to me why they were oblivious to the following:
1.- CHAT CHANNELS. Hello Blizzard, how did you forget the single most powerful community building tool the old b.net has? Where did people gather up to talk? Where did people gather up to get games hosted? Where did clans and teams meet? - Yes, not everybody uses IRC, Skype, private channels and 3rd party servers. In any case, 3rd party clients were made due to Blizzard's incapacity to control hackers.
2.- CLAN FUNCTIONALITY. A good step forward, missing in BW and very important for WC3. Why oh why is B.NET 2.0 devoid of this?
3.- WATCHING REPLAYS ONLINE WITH OTHER PEOPLE. Correct me if I'm wrong but, weren't replays the reason the overall level of the (dedicated) BW community went up? Being able to review your mistakes, being able to watch the pro's closely and so forth. Not to mention, being able to watch them WITH YOUR FRIENDS (or even a coach) to get even more value out of them.
No, let's not build on top of our great successful features, No, let's not stay still and just keep them, No, hell no. Let's go further back, way before the year 1998. Let's go back to a primitive set-up completely ignoring the very basics and musts learned through the last decade.
So please, don't talk about 'CARING' or 'LISTENING' to your customer base. Don't say things like 'WE'RE WORKING DILIGENTLY TO ADDRESS YOUR CONCERNS...' because quite frankly, it's all a load of crap. We'd have to be retarded to overlook the massive streak of failures you've got under your belt. Having said that, I'm sure you're well aware of what you're doing - why though, I have no idea. What is evident is that your goals are in an opposite direction to the wishes of your fans.
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On February 27 2011 05:40 Krehlmar wrote:
Especially because shooters are mostly more luck than RTS
I am going to take a long walk, followed by a hot shower.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 27 2011 01:55 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 22:32 Elroi wrote:On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title. If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure. Show nested quote +Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread. It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
Im pretty sure that he was speaking in hypotheticals when he said hugely inferior.
Although, as someone who is currently playing SC2 professionally, I would have to say that yes, SC2 is inferior to SC1.
However, SC1 has had way over a decade of refinements to get to this point, including an expansion - I think SC2 has a fantastic future ahead of itself.
That is, as long as Blizzard does not let politics/greed get in the way of letting the esports community develop into something healthy on its own. Im sorry Blizz, you made a great game now PLEASE let the community nurture the esports side without your meddling.
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It's kind of annoying to think that the fans are being punished because 2 companies can't seem to get along. It behooves Samsung, Blizzard, and OGN to publish and display the tournament's games on tv and online, It provides a massive amount of ratings both in korea and around the rest of the world, Not even mentioning that the SC1 players in korea that kespa holds near and dear won't be able to participate, giving less of an opportunity for players to make money and might be another incentive for them to switch to sc2 sooner rather than later, amateur or otherwise.
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Btw, this is something I've been wondering about for a while; do you SC2 guys (over there in the TL/OGS-house) follow the BW-progaming? Did you like watch the OSL-finals?
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On February 27 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 01:55 StimedPylon wrote:On February 26 2011 22:32 Elroi wrote:On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title. If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread. It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate. Im pretty sure that he was speaking in hypotheticals when he said hugely inferior. Although, as someone who is currently playing SC2 professionally, I would have to say that yes, SC2 is inferior to SC1.However, SC1 has had way over a decade of refinements to get to this point, including an expansion - I think SC2 has a fantastic future ahead of itself. That is, as long as Blizzard does not let politics/greed get in the way of letting the esports community develop into something healthy on its own. Im sorry Blizz, you made a great game now PLEASE let the community nurture the esports side without your meddling.
Pure pwnage, I'm tired of reading comments about SC1 being inferior to SC2 and talking crap about SC1 is just speed and reflexes. Because u suck at SC1 doesn't mean SC2>SC1.
To keep on topic, I'm with Samsung on this one, why would they risk a lawsuit or accept ridiculous terms like not broadcasting the games (no returns on your investment) because of Blizzard greedy nature? Yeah, is bad for e-sports, WCG is the only thing known in my country but good to show Blizzard they can't go fucking everyone up with their terms, even if they give a shit on WCG.
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On February 26 2011 19:45 Zerokaiser wrote:
When everybody wants everything nobody gets anything.
So true, so true.
Allthough I think Kotick is too overambitious in getting money out of esports, they have a valid point when they want a piece of the cake. It's easier to replace a sponsor than a game. I really don't see a game company being able to offer such entertaining and esports fitting rts games. Because of that, they are in a very good position, and they know that. Maybe that will change, but not in a short period of time.
And: You cannot compare esports to football or any other sport. The circumstances are completely different.
I just hope the struggle for money doesn't hinder the growth for esports that much, but it surely does.
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On February 27 2011 06:06 Pippah wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.the-ghetto.org/content/pictures/battlenet5.jpg)
LOL, so do you mean that blizz could make very little improvement in the last 42010 years? Actually you're right in that. Except, blizz made BW.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
You should read the contract FIFA force to the World Cup organizer country.
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On February 27 2011 08:57 Wazabo wrote:
You should read the contract FIFA force to the World Cup organizer country.
Yes, organizing 'the official world cup' in your home country does entail a huge load of requirements. Why? because it gives the home nation MILLIONS IN PROFITS. Why else do you think they all fight like dogs for the bone to host the bloody world cup every single time?
FIFA is a very corrupt organization (worth a thread of its own) but even then, they do not 'own' football, they just own the 'official' events that bear their 'seal'. You can go ahead and make a world cup yourself, if you have the time, the money and the resources to do so. Whether it succeeds or not is another story, but the thing is, you can. No one 'owns' football per se.
Because of that reason, there's plenty of football leagues and tournaments all over the planet that have helped spread, popularize and strengthen the sport.
What would be of football if FIFA banned every football event not strictly supervised by it? It would be something as poorly followed as e-sports, limited to a few, known by a few, cared for by a few.
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On February 27 2011 06:06 Pippah wrote:
I had seen that image before in the old sc2 beta b.net forums, but I must admit, I LOVE IT. It's so...simple yet straight to the point. It does make you wonder what the hell is going on with blizzard.
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I really want this IP issue to get settled definitely, surely and quickly so that everything can be clear and decided at the end. I hate those prolonged "intermediate state" where nothing is solved and more complicated problems keep happening.
Why can't they just finish everything in like 1 month ?
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So the easy answer is to just get WCG to drop samsung as a sponsor and get a new one....
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On February 27 2011 11:26 dogabutila wrote:
So the easy answer is to just get WCG to drop samsung as a sponsor and get a new one....
Except no one knows how easy it is for WCG to pick up another sponsor.
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On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth.
it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
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On February 27 2011 12:29 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:26 dogabutila wrote:
So the easy answer is to just get WCG to drop samsung as a sponsor and get a new one.... Except no one knows how easy it is for WCG to pick up another sponsor.
And wouldn't solve the broadcasting issue.
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On February 27 2011 08:57 Wazabo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. You should read the contract FIFA force to the World Cup organizer country.
This post is so full of fail:
SPORTS
1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision
2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially
3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone
4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them
5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining
Out of all those points only n°1 can be considered true. As for the other ones:
Each and every single country which has a soccer league has a soccer association to which all teams pay "royalties" in order to play. You need to het a license to start a tournament of nearly any sport, unless we're talking about neighborhood tournies. If I am to profit by doing business with sports I must pay advertisers, TV firms, and many many other stuff. Hell, I gotta pay tons of cash to the guys who make the ball my tourny is gonna be using. Despite the points above there's 100000 tourneys, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current stars to keep on shining.
You need to understand, sports, like everything else, is one more business, one that moves thousands and thousands of dollars. If e-sports is going to become any biggie, it needs to be a business plain and simple, and as such it needs to be under the rules of business, and right now, those rules state that you must ask the owner of a brand in order to use said brand to earn money. This is nothing out of the ordinary.
I understand that kespa does a big thing for BW and e-sports in general in korea, but what they do can be considered illegal, and it doesn't matter who it benefits, it's still illegal. To get to the point, if "football" "baseball" or "basketball" were registered trademarks, then their owner would receive money from anyone using them to win money, sadly for you, "starcraft" IS a trademark.
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My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves.
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im pretty sure they sponsor a starcraft squadron sooo...? they just hatin
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My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves.
Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me
Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me.
We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports.
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Aw man
A year that it's held in Korea, and people might not even go because of Blizzard...T_T
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i say put bw and wc3 and , delete sc2 and let blizzard play it in a corner , gg samsung
and btw way to go for blizzard ......... they recognized officialy they want to kill bw and now there is a collateral damage the wcg
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On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:Show nested quote +My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent.
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On February 27 2011 18:38 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent.
According to one of the interviews with MBC official, HanBit Soft had blizzard's consent. They were a member of KeSPA and StarCraft's distributor in Korea. Seems pretty legit to me. I'd have to look up that interview so that I don't get yelled at by blizzard fanboys. Will do that later (unless I'm mistaken).
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On February 27 2011 18:48 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 18:38 zobz wrote:On February 27 2011 15:26 Greg_J wrote:My favorite part of these arguments is the casting of Blizzard as some big mean money stealing bully and Samsung as the underdog
Samsung is the largest and most powerful company in Korea, their net worth dwarfs that of Blizzard/Activision. They also happen to be fairly corrupt and shady themselves. Well I'm sure Samsung do stuff thats not so great. But we are just talking about Starcraft. Samsung have poored money in to the scene for years and helped WCG and the other tournaments get of the ground. So thats +1 for me Blizzard have done nothing to help develope E Sports for 10 years. Then suddenly turned up and demanded money or they will sue everyone. That doesn't sound like the good guys to me. We're not casting Blizzard as the bad guys just because we hold some unexplained hatred for Blizzard or we hate American companies or any other random reason. Its because what the are doing right now is bad for Esports. The whole idea of basing a sport on something which is privately owned is inherently flawed. That was the risky decision of us as fans and of Korean league organizers. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't owe us esports just because we want to have it, and Blizzard doesn't owe KeSPA esports just because they made a huge investment in it without Blizzard's consent. According to one of the interviews with MBC official, HanBit Soft had blizzard's consent. They were a member of KeSPA and StarCraft's distributor in Korea. Seems pretty legit to me. I'd have to look up that interview so that I don't get yelled at by blizzard fanboys. Will do that later (unless I'm mistaken).
Just to add to what Hanbit Soft is .. They were the official distributor for Blizzard products and yes Nada, I think, was part of the team Hanbit Soft was sponsoring
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On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:
You need to het a license to start a tournament of nearly any sport, unless we're talking about neighborhood tournies.
You need a "tournament license" in order to "legally" host a SC2 neighbourhood tourney.
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the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
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On February 27 2011 05:31 Pippah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:52 MaYuu wrote:On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. This post is pure gold. I love you man. wow I love all of you so much, that is so true. And ppl like Iamanton (or whatever) and Whitewing.... TL member since last october....? Please just - dont participate when you clearly dont know what you are talking about.
Dude, what are you talking about?
You make no sense.
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On February 27 2011 21:27 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
The major difference is that Adidas don't own the IP right to the design of a ball, they just manufacture them and put their logo on them, Blizzard do own the IP rights to the Starcraft franchise so its a completely different thing. A football club, for example, could switch to using balls from Umbro or someone else but switching from Blizzards product means using a completely different game which likely won't have the brand appeal or fan base that Starcraft does.
A widely available freely available 'Starcraft clone' as you suggest would very likely infringe on Blizzards IP rights anyway and get shut down, that's the whole point of IP laws and why this whole mess of a situation has come to this point. Any game would have to be different enough to avoid this and thus would be very disimilar to Starcraft.
On another note, I don't see why people take up arms for one side or the other here, both Blizzard and KeSPA (et al) failed to come to terms because both sides dug their heels in where compromises were concerned. Neither is innocent in the making of this situation and both are guilty of looking out for their own interests above those of the greater E-sports community. But that's to be expected, both are privately run organisations and are responsible, first and foremost, to their shareholders, its just a damn shame its had to come to court action to sort this sorry mess out and now the WCG is in danger because of it.
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On February 27 2011 21:27 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
the ip thing of blizzard is a bizarre idea. Adidas does not charge the soccer teams for using their ball .. they are paying for it. At least broadcasting of SC2 WCG games is advertising and will increase SC2 sales and popularity. Stupid move by blzzrd business guys. Someday they'll face a sponsored custom developed freely avaiable starcraft clone. just some few millions required .. however it will pay off pretty soon.
It's a free market, everyone is allowed to put out a decent, esports-fitting rts. Sadly it doesn't happen, seems it's harder to design a great game than a soccer ball. And it certainly requires more money.
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On February 27 2011 12:50 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth. it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
The negotiations started in 2007. They got nowhere for several years (for reasons I'm not going to bother to discuss, sticking to facts, not opinions.) The lawsuit started late 2010.
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They started around the time when Kotick came on board.
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People should look up some copyright laws. Ever wondered where companies pulled those popular music from? Guess what, they paid for it. It's regrettable (read: fucking ridiculous) that Blizzard decided to enforce their copyright in this way, but by law, they were never the ones at fault.
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Even my Samsung TV, which I love, thinks that while suing for 350,000,000 won is like paying 37 cents for postage to mail a 25-cent check, Samsung is wrong. WCG, in Korea, without SCBW/SC2? That's like the Super Bowl without the NFL or the World Cup without diving. And frankly, Blizzard deserves their 25 cents.
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Too bad blizzard isn't just asking for "25 cents" or even any sum of money. I believe in their last statement one of their demands was for OGN/MBC to stop hosting bw tournaments and only do sc2. Ridiculous.
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Blizzard gave birth to BW 10 years ago. Then gave it up for adoption after it no longer makes a good profit. The Korean adopted BW and with years of hard work, BW grew up to became THE representative of E-Sport. Then 10 years later, the birth father (Blizz) came back and demanded that they want their abandoned child back. But Blizzard is not doing this because they love BW. It's doing it so that BW's younger brother SC2 can have a better future.
生母不及養母大.
*sigh...
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On February 28 2011 02:35 hmsrenown wrote:
People should look up some copyright laws. Ever wondered where companies pulled those popular music from? Guess what, they paid for it. It's regrettable (read: fucking ridiculous) that Blizzard decided to enforce their copyright in this way, but by law, they were never the ones at fault.
Are you implying that just because they have the IP rights to their games, they are by extension entitled to the ownership of the teams, players, broadcasts, VODs, replays, maps and related shows?
I don't see how this whole issue has anything to do with enforcing copyright laws anymore. Blizzard is entitled to some compensation (e.g. in form of royalties, even though any sane person will agree that advertising their franchise to millions of people for free should be enough, especially considering sc2 wouldn't be even half as popular if it wasn't for what Korea turned BW into), however, they are not entitled to take over the whole industry other companies are investing millions of dollars into.
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On February 28 2011 03:58 mmdmmd wrote:
Blizzard gave birth to BW 10 years ago. Then gave it up for adoption after it no longer makes a good profit. The Korean adopted BW and with years of hard work, BW grew up to became THE representative of E-Sport. Then 10 years later, the birth father (Blizz) came back and demanded that they want their abandoned child back. But Blizzard is not doing this because they love BW. It's doing it so that BW's younger brother SC2 can have a better future.
生母不及養母大.
*sigh...
Terrible terrible analogy that does not work for an IP. The judge would LOL all over KeSPA if this was there defense.
Times have changed and if you want eSports to evolve and not die with BW then they'll have to go legal and ditch KeSPA if they really think they're above international law.
BTW KeSPA started this by killing off the GOMTV Classic, they fired the first shot, now Blizz retaliated and KeSPA starts screaming "STOP KILLING ESPORTS! YOU'RE EVIL!!".
They're actually hurting the credibility if eSports as of the last few years and they are clearly stuck in the past where things were more lenient.
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On February 28 2011 06:25 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:58 mmdmmd wrote:
Blizzard gave birth to BW 10 years ago. Then gave it up for adoption after it no longer makes a good profit. The Korean adopted BW and with years of hard work, BW grew up to became THE representative of E-Sport. Then 10 years later, the birth father (Blizz) came back and demanded that they want their abandoned child back. But Blizzard is not doing this because they love BW. It's doing it so that BW's younger brother SC2 can have a better future.
生母不及養母大.
*sigh... Terrible terrible analogy that does not work for an IP. The judge would LOL all over KeSPA if this was there defense. Times have changed and if you want eSports to evolve and not die with BW then they'll have to go legal and ditch KeSPA if they really think they're above international law. BTW KeSPA started this by killing off the GOMTV Classic, they fired the first shot, now Blizz retaliated and KeSPA starts screaming "STOP KILLING ESPORTS! YOU'RE EVIL!!". They're actually hurting the credibility if eSports as of the last few years and they are clearly stuck in the past where things were more lenient.
Yeah, KeSPA is clearly stuck in the past with having the most prestigious e-sports tournaments on earth. Sure it's not Blizzard trying to squeeze all the money they can from something they did not participate in creating.
I sure miss the old blizzard north days, back when they actually made games for gamers and not for $$$$.
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Since when are companies not out there to make money? What world do you live in?
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 27 2011 12:50 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth.
it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
This is because when for Blizzard's puppet to start earning revenue (GOMtv) popularity for BW needs to decrease, forcing SC2 to increase popularity as the forced alternative.
I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with KeSPA trying to beat more money out of the dead horse they call SC:BW and the fact that they are essentially forcing some players to stay on BW teams, not allowing them to switch to the ever growing SC2.
KeSPA is the black dragon here, I follow the blue dragon....Blizz. Expect more to come from Blizzard, Samsung is just throwing a hissy fit.
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On February 28 2011 06:33 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 06:25 StimedPylon wrote:On February 28 2011 03:58 mmdmmd wrote:
Blizzard gave birth to BW 10 years ago. Then gave it up for adoption after it no longer makes a good profit. The Korean adopted BW and with years of hard work, BW grew up to became THE representative of E-Sport. Then 10 years later, the birth father (Blizz) came back and demanded that they want their abandoned child back. But Blizzard is not doing this because they love BW. It's doing it so that BW's younger brother SC2 can have a better future.
生母不及養母大.
*sigh... Terrible terrible analogy that does not work for an IP. The judge would LOL all over KeSPA if this was there defense. Times have changed and if you want eSports to evolve and not die with BW then they'll have to go legal and ditch KeSPA if they really think they're above international law. BTW KeSPA started this by killing off the GOMTV Classic, they fired the first shot, now Blizz retaliated and KeSPA starts screaming "STOP KILLING ESPORTS! YOU'RE EVIL!!". They're actually hurting the credibility if eSports as of the last few years and they are clearly stuck in the past where things were more lenient. Yeah, KeSPA is clearly stuck in the past with having the most prestigious e-sports tournaments on earth. Sure it's not Blizzard trying to squeeze all the money they can from something they did not participate in creating. I sure miss the old blizzard north days, back when they actually made games for gamers and not for $$$$.
What KeSPA done has been great but once they started ignoring Blizzard's plea to acknowledge their IP rights and started trying to kill any competition via aggressive tactics like not allowing the teams to join other tournaments like the GOMTV classic as well as selling broadcast rights to an IP they didn't and still don't own they wen't illegal.
It's one thing to do something and not get a C&D letter and another to basically say "FUCK YOU LOL" to the IP holder.
They started with very good intentions, but alas they've turned into a very cancerous corporation that is only hurting the future of eSports, for both BW and SC2 simply because they won't be able to use BW to make money for much longer.
"I sure miss the old blizzard north days, back when they actually made games for gamers and not for $$$$. "
This is the one of the most naive comments I've ever heard. The nostalgia glasses are really foggy these days.
Most of the employees that made Blizzard North left to form their own company, Flagship Studios. They made the the disaster that was Hellgate: London before quickly dying off.
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I'm the only one hoping they wont include the games? Just to give blizz a "GTFO" with their law suits, etc.? Give blizz something to think about!
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On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:
This post is so full of fail:
SPORTS
1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision
2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially
3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone
4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them
5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining
Out of all those points only n°1 can be considered true.
Wrong again Mr. Fail
#2.- You can play a friendly match of any sport without the need for 'official' supervision, likewise, you can go ahead and play (should you qualify skillwise) an official one as well.
#3.- Show me the law that dictates you cannot start a sports tournament in your neighbourhood and not have to pay royalties to any major organization. They don't 'own' the sport, they only own their 'brand' and 'seal' for the sport.
#4.- No one stops you from making, say, caps, tshirts or whatever which include a generic football, football player or sport-related imagery (that of course does not include a player's face and what not which are indeed owned by the relevant club)
#5.- Not much to say here except maybe open your eyes and let logic and common sense guide you.
On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:As for the other ones:
Each and every single country which has a soccer league has a soccer association to which all teams pay "royalties" in order to play. You need to het a license to start a tournament of nearly any sport, unless we're talking about neighborhood tournies. If I am to profit by doing business with sports I must pay advertisers, TV firms, and many many other stuff. Hell, I gotta pay tons of cash to the guys who make the ball my tourny is gonna be using. Despite the points above there's 100000 tourneys, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current stars to keep on shining.
You clearly missed the whole point. If you want to make - for example - 'an official' league that falls within the boundaries of FIFA's jurisdiction (and approval), then sure you gotta pay. Otherwise you're in the clear. Last but not least, who ever spoke of what teams have to pay to participate in a league? Why are you bringing up this point which has zero relation to anything discussed above?
The debate here was about the ease for league creators to make their own league, not what teams pay to league owners in order to participate in their leagues. OBVIOUSLY you'll pay or give the league creator whatever he demands since it's his league and his rules, but again, that wasn't the point.
On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:You need to understand, sports, like everything else, is one more business, one that moves thousands and thousands of dollars. If e-sports is going to become any biggie, it needs to be a business plain and simple, and as such it needs to be under the rules of business, and right now, those rules state that you must ask the owner of a brand in order to use said brand to earn money. This is nothing out of the ordinary.
They all did not start as businesses and it is precisely the jump to business-oriented thinking which has resulted in the corruption of the game and its governing bodies, dilution of quality, rigging of games, etc. In any case, the only thing e-sports needs to grow big is proper support and exposure, not a mimicking of greed-over-logic principles prevailing in sports, which is kind of what blizzard is doing right now. Yes, you must ask the owner of a brand to use their brand. However, note that the discussion (from my part at least) was never about legal strength in the argument.
YES, BLIZZARD CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS WITH SC2. Yes, that's very clear. The whole purpose of the discussion however is that by acting like that, selfishly, they threaten the future of e-sports which, as pointed by many before me, was not even birthed, nurtured and developed by blizzard. It was the job of korean gamers and organizers. In other words, Blizzard has the legal right to whack the future of esports and sc2 even though its a very stupid, stupid idea.
On February 27 2011 13:46 mordk wrote:I understand that kespa does a big thing for BW and e-sports in general in korea, but what they do can be considered illegal, and it doesn't matter who it benefits, it's still illegal. To get to the point, if "football" "baseball" or "basketball" were registered trademarks, then their owner would receive money from anyone using them to win money, sadly for you, "starcraft" IS a trademark.
Once again you miss the point Mr. Fail. The discussion was spinning around the concept of 'we want e-sports to grow as big as sports' or even better 'why doesn't e-sports grow like sports'. That's why I made the clear comparison between one and the other. If blizzard fights for its intellectual property in every god damn legally possible way, then they block out the participation of other people (like it happened in sports) and thus, they make sure that it stays as a niche kind of thing rather than a broad, mass-appeal counterpart.
Had football or any other currently truly popular sport today been trademarked from the very beginning, I assure you not a singe one would be where they are today.
Picture NBA reps going to every local/public basketball court or hoop in the US to stop african americans from playing without paying their due fees. Right.
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On February 28 2011 08:52 Qzy wrote:
I'm the only one hoping they wont include the games? Just to give blizz a "GTFO" with their law suits, etc.? Give blizz something to think about!
Me too, I don't want to see a world where Blizzard's demands are met and it becomes a precedent for eSports.
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sickshot.sc2@gmail.com Donthackme1 is my account and PW
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Really though situation, i really would hate to see no blizz RTS because they are trying to hard to kill off BW in korea.
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Osaka27136 Posts
On February 28 2011 09:08 Suvorov wrote:
Picture NBA reps going to every local/public basketball court or hoop in the US to stop african americans from playing without paying their due fees. Right.
Pretty sure some white people play basketball too yo.
And don't call people "Mr. Fail". It makes me not care about your post.
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United States5582 Posts
A bit off topic since it's not about WCG, yet somewhat related to the topic at the same time. To any people that can read Korean out there, apparently  Reach approves of settling the IP case issue as soon as possible. I am not confident enough to translate the whole article word by word since that kind of information is sort of dangerous for me to handle if I mistranslate anything with my rusty Korean, so I'll just throw it out here. It's basically an article of how Reach was a panelist at a meeting held about the IP case issue, and how he shared his opinions as a progamer about the whole thing. The article also provides a little summary of the history of the case. I do have to admit that I clicked on the article because of the Mantoss, but it might be interesting to some others out there.
Link: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=40329
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it started last year .. when SC2 came out ..
This is because when for Blizzard's puppet to start earning revenue (GOMtv) popularity for BW needs to decrease, forcing SC2 to increase popularity as the forced alternative.
I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with KeSPA trying to beat more money out of the dead horse they call SC:BW and the fact that they are essentially forcing some players to stay on BW teams, not allowing them to switch to the ever growing SC2.
KeSPA is the black dragon here, I follow the blue dragon....Blizz. Expect more to come from Blizzard, Samsung is just throwing a hissy fit.
this is an outrageous troll of uninformed hate filled opinion with no fact or substance, this is not useful to any kind of disucusion.
Somone mentioned Kespa charging OGN and MBC game for the right to boradcast thier leagues and that is a very interesting point and the first thing that has sounded like it might constitute deifnate breach of IP rights (not that I'm a lawyer or anything). We need more information about the orginal situation when the leagues where started was it legal? Why where Blizzard fine with that then.
(I'm aware that this is also just my opinion but its at least not hate filled):
Ultimatley I think this has to go to court because MBC and OGN don't know where they stand. They have been told to pay money for broadcasting thier leagues and thier reply is that they want a court ruleing, not because they know thier gonna win but because they don't know. I think thats the problem here we are all talking about hypothetical scenarios and trying to constructing similies with other industries, but the fact is this hasn't happened before and the only way people are gonna find out what will happen is in court.
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I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with KeSPA trying to beat more money out of the dead horse they call SC:BW and the fact that they are essentially forcing some players to stay on BW teams, not allowing them to switch to the ever growing SC2.
mindless drivel when there are a ton of former B team BW players and retired BW players making up the Korean SC2 player base and Guemchi directly contradicts your statement going from BW to SC2 and back to BW
also the BW hate is so idiotic. calling BW a dead horse when BW is bigger than SC2 in Korea.
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On February 28 2011 08:35 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 06:33 MaYuu wrote:On February 28 2011 06:25 StimedPylon wrote:On February 28 2011 03:58 mmdmmd wrote:
Blizzard gave birth to BW 10 years ago. Then gave it up for adoption after it no longer makes a good profit. The Korean adopted BW and with years of hard work, BW grew up to became THE representative of E-Sport. Then 10 years later, the birth father (Blizz) came back and demanded that they want their abandoned child back. But Blizzard is not doing this because they love BW. It's doing it so that BW's younger brother SC2 can have a better future.
生母不及養母大.
*sigh... Terrible terrible analogy that does not work for an IP. The judge would LOL all over KeSPA if this was there defense. Times have changed and if you want eSports to evolve and not die with BW then they'll have to go legal and ditch KeSPA if they really think they're above international law. BTW KeSPA started this by killing off the GOMTV Classic, they fired the first shot, now Blizz retaliated and KeSPA starts screaming "STOP KILLING ESPORTS! YOU'RE EVIL!!". They're actually hurting the credibility if eSports as of the last few years and they are clearly stuck in the past where things were more lenient. Yeah, KeSPA is clearly stuck in the past with having the most prestigious e-sports tournaments on earth. Sure it's not Blizzard trying to squeeze all the money they can from something they did not participate in creating. I sure miss the old blizzard north days, back when they actually made games for gamers and not for $$$$. What KeSPA done has been great but once they started ignoring Blizzard's plea to acknowledge their IP rights and started trying to kill any competition via aggressive tactics like not allowing the teams to join other tournaments like the GOMTV classic as well as selling broadcast rights to an IP they didn't and still don't own they wen't illegal. It's one thing to do something and not get a C&D letter and another to basically say "FUCK YOU LOL" to the IP holder. They started with very good intentions, but alas they've turned into a very cancerous corporation that is only hurting the future of eSports, for both BW and SC2 simply because they won't be able to use BW to make money for much longer. "I sure miss the old blizzard north days, back when they actually made games for gamers and not for $$$$. " This is the one of the most naive comments I've ever heard. The nostalgia glasses are really foggy these days. Most of the employees that made Blizzard North left to form their own company, Flagship Studios. They made the the disaster that was Hellgate: London before quickly dying off.
KeSPA has had some made some bad decisions but trying to stick with BW sure isn't one of them. Making teams focus on OSL/MSL and ProLeague sure isn't one of them either since it's a rather logical decision, Sure I love to have English commentary but you should always put the players first. If the players do think it's to much to play in 4 leagues then why not skip the one which feels most amateur'ish? There's also the incident with referees but hey at least they improved.
As for Blizzard they have not been producing as good games as before. After Vanilla WoW you could clearly see production value go down. Easy patches was made instead of fixing the wrong problem. Even in some diablo 3 producer video some guy said "We want cool spells before balance spells such as spells that purely give stats such as critical rate of attack speed"
The three years blizzard has spent with Activision has really took it's toll. The first major think you can see is the no LAN feature. Activision is known for wrecking all their games, just look at the cod series who became shit after modern warfare 1.
Blizzard is saying they are promoting e-sports but I have yet to see a LAN feature which is needed for top-notch competitive play. Blizzard may have many reasons for not including LAN, but supporting e-sports sure as hell ain't one of them.
BW still generate a much larger audience then any SC2 game yet. Stop spewing the bullshit about BW is dying and they are trying to make the last buck out of it. Get your facts straight. The ones trying to make a buck out of it is Blizzard since they was dumb enough not to jump on the e-sports train when e-sports needed it at the most. They clearly didn't see e-sports surviving in SK but now 10 years later they go around waving their little e-sports flag and want all the credit.
KeSPA and BW still has the biggest leagues with teams that actually function as a proper team. Salary and pro gaming licenses is a step that Blizzard is never willing to take. The BW world is so much more professional then the current SC2 one.
What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where.
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Technically, Blizzard has a case. But actually I think it's wrong for them to sue this way. To cite an example: when Warner Bros. bought all IP rights to everything and anything HP (excluding the books) they started to sue all fanmade websites related to HP. There was such a backlash of criticism and threats from the fandom that Warner Bros. changed its mind and backed off. Sure, the law would be on their side if they sued but that doesn't make it right. Also, in their greed (profit driven world) they would have alienated a world of fans.
Everybody understands the difference between what is Lawful and what is Right, yeah?
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Cell phone games WCG 2011 GO!!!!!!!
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I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame.
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On February 28 2011 07:45 Rage178 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 27 2011 12:50 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns. Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth. it started last year .. when SC2 came out .. This is because when for Blizzard's puppet to start earning revenue (GOMtv) popularity for BW needs to decrease, forcing SC2 to increase popularity as the forced alternative. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem with KeSPA trying to beat more money out of the dead horse they call SC:BW and the fact that they are essentially forcing some players to stay on BW teams, not allowing them to switch to the ever growing SC2. KeSPA is the black dragon here, I follow the blue dragon....Blizz. Expect more to come from Blizzard, Samsung is just throwing a hissy fit.
Just so you know .. BW isn't a dead horse ...
You people don't realize that Samsung/WCG is trying to dodge a lawsuit. And they are waiting for the current case to end so that there wont be more disturbance on the IP Lawsuit fiasco.
Hating Samsung for making this move is just being fanboy ignorant.
There wouldn't have been this problem if Blizzard sorted this out earlier. Why wait for this to happen when they could have filed a lawsuit when KeSPA was not cooperating with them back in 2007? BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE BAD FOR P.R. Blizzard wanted to file the lawsuit following the release of SC2. Now, they risk having their games not being shown on the ONLY tournament where players from around the world can compete and represent their respective countries on a game they love to play.
I've seen many ads regarding Starcraft on the least possible place (A FUCKING AIRPLANE for example). How can Blizzard not want WCG to advertise their game?
Also, to add regarding players being forced to play the game. You do know they can quit, right? You know a player of SC2 who call himself MVP, right? He was an ex-BW gamer right? They aren't forcing them to play. They are being payed to play the game. There's a HUUUGE difference.
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On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame.
What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard.
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On February 28 2011 11:27 Manifesto7 wrote:
Pretty sure some white people play basketball too yo.
I know that, as do we all. However, today, the majority of top-level players in the NBA are african americans. What they bring to the game is undeniable and that's what I wanted to convey with my comment.
On February 28 2011 11:27 Manifesto7 wrote:
And don't call people "Mr. Fail". It makes me not care about your post.
I jokingly said Mr.Fail not because he 'fails' but because his reply to one of my posts in question began with the phrase 'this post is so full of fail'. Hence the nickname.
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On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard.
I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off.
So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not.
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On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not.
You're making shit up. How can anybody take you seriously?
First of all, when televised BW started off, there was no KeSPA yet, so how come they somehow denied to negotiate with blizzard? Second of all, HanBit Soft, the official distributor of StarCraft in Korea, got blizzard's consent. Last but not least, blizzard only started "negotiating" (more suitable would be the term "blackmailing") with KeSPA several years after Korea created the BW esports scene. Not to mention the fact that your claim of KeSPA refusing to negotiate is laughable in itself, as it was blizzard that was constantly breaking off the negotiations every time sc2 was getting delayed...
Your post is full of shit. You're blatantly lying.
If anyone's to blame, it's obviously blizzard here. They show their hyporcisy when it comes to "promoting and caring for esports" time and time again.
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On February 25 2011 17:07 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 17:05 divito wrote:
Any way of getting that translated?
And I'm a little confused by saying WCG and Samsung separately...WCG doesn't exist without Samsung. WCG is a separate organization, it's just that Samsung Electronics is one of their main sponsors. WCG had a huge deficit during WCG 2010 in LA, so they've been downsizing and such, which is why they're hosting in Korea from what I can tell
Which is why I don't understand it was hosted in LA in the first place... They should make sure first that they wouldn't have such a huge deficit... I mean it was spectacular in China and every year in Korea and most of the Euro countries...
Samsung is being crzy... Blizzard... is going crzy... this whole e-sport thing is gonna get fucked up now... wow... Without blizzard games there is nothing to watch at WCG and without OGN/Kespa/Koreans there's not as much popularity... jesus.......
Those corporations gotta work it out together grrr lol.
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All these corps need to stop thinking about money and start thinking about the good of e-sports... srsly.... this bullshit needs to stop -_-
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CA10825 Posts
can we please stop the absurd posts about how companies "need to stop thinking about money and start thinking about the fans/good of e-sports"?
that is such a ridiculous statement
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CA10825 Posts
also for people talking about kespa being a cancer to esports, etc, please realize that kespa is simply an organization made of the representatives from the companies that SPONSOR the progaming teams. if you removed kespa from the equation we're going to go back to the stone age of professional gaming where people live in pcbangs eating ramen 3x a day.
has kespa made dumb decisions in the past? absolutely, no one will refute that.
but to say that they are terrible for esports? that's insane. these same companies that you're accusing have given millions of dollars to sponsor the proteams over the past 10 years.
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On March 01 2011 02:02 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not. You're making shit up. How can anybody take you seriously? First of all, when televised BW started off, there was no KeSPA yet, so how come they somehow denied to negotiate with blizzard? Second of all, HanBit Soft, the official distributor of StarCraft in Korea, got blizzard's consent. Last but not least, blizzard only started "negotiating" (more suitable would be the term "blackmailing") with KeSPA several years after Korea created the BW esports scene. Not to mention the fact that your claim of KeSPA refusing to negotiate is laughable in itself, as it was blizzard that was constantly breaking off the negotiations every time sc2 was getting delayed... Your post is full of shit. You're blatantly lying. If anyone's to blame, it's obviously blizzard here. They show their hyporcisy when it comes to "promoting and caring for esports" time and time again.
First of all, you seem very hot and bothered.
Second of all, read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174061
That would be all, pardon for polluting this thread.
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On March 01 2011 02:29 aznboi918 wrote:
All these corps need to stop thinking about money and start thinking about the good of e-sports... srsly.... this bullshit needs to stop -_-
Yes, a corporation will forget about $$$$ thats it. You must be brilliant in business.
Bottom line is KESPA doesn't have offical licensing and consent to continue to do business. They are unwilling to obtain it. Its blizzards capacity to say yes or no. KESPA isn't offering anything, so Blizzard is saying no you don't.
KESPA will lose in court. S.Korea has become more and more legitimate with copyright infringment recently, specifically in the international market.
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On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not.
You made up that line in Bold.
Nuff said
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On March 01 2011 03:24 LosingID8 wrote:
if you removed kespa from the equation we're going to go back to the stone age of professional gaming where people live in pcbangs eating ramen 3x a day.
I wish Blizz can see this too.
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On March 01 2011 03:49 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 02:02 maybenexttime wrote:On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not. You're making shit up. How can anybody take you seriously? First of all, when televised BW started off, there was no KeSPA yet, so how come they somehow denied to negotiate with blizzard? Second of all, HanBit Soft, the official distributor of StarCraft in Korea, got blizzard's consent. Last but not least, blizzard only started "negotiating" (more suitable would be the term "blackmailing") with KeSPA several years after Korea created the BW esports scene. Not to mention the fact that your claim of KeSPA refusing to negotiate is laughable in itself, as it was blizzard that was constantly breaking off the negotiations every time sc2 was getting delayed... Your post is full of shit. You're blatantly lying. If anyone's to blame, it's obviously blizzard here. They show their hyporcisy when it comes to "promoting and caring for esports" time and time again. First of all, you seem very hot and bothered. Second of all, read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174061That would be all, pardon for polluting this thread.
I'm pissed off because it's rare for me to read such nonesensial posts like yours. Go read the numerous thread on the issue and stop outright lying in your posts.
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On March 01 2011 05:24 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 03:24 LosingID8 wrote:
if you removed kespa from the equation we're going to go back to the stone age of professional gaming where people live in pcbangs eating ramen 3x a day.
I wish Blizz can see this too.
blizz isn't trying to take down kespa or the like, they just want to always play the tune that tournaments run on their games dance to, which is undeniably their legal right, regardless of whether or not they fail the moral aspects or if it is good for them in the long run to behave in such a way (upsetting the consumer/spectator base)
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On February 28 2011 19:05 PainUser wrote:
Cell phone games WCG 2011 GO!!!!!!!
WCG : World Cellphone Games !
On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment
Though BW or WC3 would be missed...
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What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where.
Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough.
And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that.
So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important.
On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment
That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections.
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On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:
And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that.
If you look at it the other way, the KeSPA members might have already been sponsoring SC2 if Blizzard didn't get in their way. You may not realize this but the KeSPA members are the biggest and most consistent sponsors of e-sports in the world. Blizzard are the ones dictating the terms of the licensing agreements so if the onus of being reasonable falls on anyone, it is them.
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Ugh, I used to like Samsung. >
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serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
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On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament.
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I strongly nominate HoN as an official WCG game.
No bias.
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On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament.
Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that.
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On March 01 2011 11:30 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament. Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that.
from OP
But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
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On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
you make a lot of good points; blizzard basically made ZERO compromises with their sc2 plan -- they want to make esports a viable thing/sport, but at the same time they want 100% of all the rights of every tourney using their game, no lan, etc.
reminds me of Nintendo with Friend Codes except Nintendo never intended on being big on multi...
however, from what i hear, kespa sucked dick for players. bw players lived like shit (admittedly by choice) and sc2 houses/lifestyle seem to be a huge step up.
that said, samsung is one of those corps that rules the world (they do everything from construction to electronics), so this is sad.
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On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. Show nested quote +On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections.
I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone.
Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but...
Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to.
Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously.
On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory.
I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not.
Ok, so its basically a "I didnt start, it HE DID" situation...?
I think its pretty damn likely the reason KeSPA didnt want to negotiate with Blizz is because they had those retarded demands in there from the get go.
Note: I dont like KeSPA, I just dont like the way Blizzard is behaving either.
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On March 01 2011 11:51 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:30 MaYuu wrote:On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament. Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that. from OP But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
Yeah, The fee they will have to pay if they run Blizzard game since Blizzard will charge you if you host a tournament on their game. As far as I know, they are the only ones that does that.
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Honestly I can't understand how you guys support Blizzard. Just because KeSPA sucks doesn't mean Blizzard have ANY reason to behave like they are doing.
Honestly, no sc2 at the WCG ?
that will be the first nail in the coffin for SC2 in South america (where I live and where i'm interested in making the e-sport grow) and for sure will spread to other places.
SC2 Should be a sport and not a product.
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On March 01 2011 18:15 Drakan wrote:
Honestly I can't understand how you guys support Blizzard. Just because KeSPA sucks doesn't mean Blizzard have ANY reason to behave like they are doing.
Honestly, no sc2 at the WCG ?
that will be the first nail in the coffin for SC2 in South america (where I live and where i'm interested in making the e-sport grow) and for sure will spread to other places.
SC2 Should be a sport and not a product.
We'd all like it to be this way, but because of the history of how BW literally exploded in terms of eSports, everyone's trying to do the same with SC2, especially since blizzard now knows the potential for it.
kespa like any other company wants to just make money, and secure their place in making said money (who wouldn't?) , blizzard's stooping to their level now, and is very capable to do so since they've solidified their grasp on the product. Shit's gonna get real soon and I hope WCG HAS blizz games.
*edit* Hi Jinro. Go Go Go!
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On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible...
That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened.
I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene.
Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
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On March 01 2011 21:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible... That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened. I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene. Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
This is the problem with so much opinion being thrown about on the internet. Most of the people who side with blizzard regarding this matter haven't seen the greatness of BW and they couldn't see the potential if KeSPA would have handled the SC2 scene or if you don't like KeSPA, what if OGN/MBC broadcasted SC2 on national TV? Just like what they did on SC:BW years ago, before the time of KeSPA.
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*snip* ....and even the caster selection would not have happened.
You have to remember that Tasteless started being the only english caster for Starcraft (in the Korean scene) for the GOM Starleague, and that KeSPA bullied it into being shut down.
If KeSPA ruled, we probably wouldn't have ANY english casting at all.
This is off the top of my head, others can feel free to correct me.
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Seriously, we dont need this drama right now. I just wanna focus on the games.
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On March 01 2011 22:33 iko wrote:You have to remember that Tasteless started being the only english caster for Starcraft (in the Korean scene) for the GOM Starleague, and that KeSPA bullied it into being shut down. If KeSPA ruled, we probably wouldn't have ANY english casting at all. This is off the top of my head, others can feel free to correct me.
As stated many times before, the players themselves had legitimate reason to pull out of the GOM Classic to prioritize the PL/MSL/OSL.
I started out SC watching Tasteless on GOM, if KeSPA worked with Blizzard for SC2, I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have pushed for an English cast, especially after the overwhelming initial response to the game, and the fact that they want worldwide exposure.
I really don't see why KeSPA can't do the things that GOM has done, surely with Blizzard's support they'd be able to pull an English cast together and stream it. Not to mention they make badass intros.
But yeah getting a little offtopic, many signs point to Blizzard being the main cause of this, not Samsung.
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On March 01 2011 21:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible... That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened. I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene. Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
KeSPA didn't bother with foreigners in BW to the degree gretech does with sc2 because there simply are/were not enough good foreign players. Just look up Hexatron and foreign BW progamers.
Look at KeSPA/OGN/MBC leagues for WC3. Those were rather friendly towards non-Koreans. 4K and SK (I think?) moved to Korea for a while.
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Koreans just mad that they r being sued by blizzard, blizzard sort of started the whole shebang if u look at it that way. As long as the whole tension between OSL/msl and blizzard doesn't go away, there will be no solution to this problem
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Anyone know the next court date? Also, should that bring the final verdict? I could see WCG waiting for that to come before deciding what to do next (at least for the inclusion of blizz games), granted that date isn't too far away form now.
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good for samsung demonstrating they have balls and a sense of justice.
Blizzard are way out of line with this whole IP thing.
This is the only way samsung could stand up to them and also publicise how bad blizzard are acting outside of the bw community.
i understand both sides here. blizzard is trying to protect their image and their game that they created. They don't want people or companies making massive money and advertising and rating without paying anything for the vehicle they use. imagine if your friend was borrowing your car to sell stuff door to door and made lets say 100k but he isn't giving you gas or a cut. wouldn't that bother you?
The big problem id have is that my car is not insured for business use. Also is he was selling stuff out of it for 100k hed probably be doing something really illegal and or dangerous which changes everything. So i dont think this example is really helpful at all. It really trivialises the whole thing and hides the real causes behind a broken analogy.
The difference is that in business you have to get this stuff agreed before. The law has evolved over time due to courts that make profit from this kind of sillyness. In your example you would be able to start a case and you would get a cut. In this case blizzard is basically attempting to test a whole new area of law.
the real question is shuold the publisher of a game have a right to dictate who can play it, when they play it and at what venues is played at? Shuold a publisher be entitled to a cut from tournaments? That is a total reversal of the current situation .... what is more brood war didnt have anything about this in its contracts when it was released (unlike sc2) because it was way beyond the imaginings of lawyers.
Besides they made the game and sold the copies of it. they didnt make the tv show of people playing the game. The fact its sc is incidental ... th publisher has ip on the game, using it in a tournament is fair use because each participant has bought a license of the game.
Dont people on blizzards side get what they are asking for? Its like supporting prohibition and then wishing for a way for some people to get a little bit of a supply if they pay a fortune for it. Yes, you are voting for prohibition as well.
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this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment....
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Good, maybe now blizzard will learn how to make maps
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On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment....
so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer.
let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right?
I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations.
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On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations.
Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports.
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On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports.
Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties.
Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much.
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On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much.
Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company.
If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be.
There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place.
ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all.
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i'm not gonna pretend i know the legal ramifications. but i'm curious who comes out on top with this one. ive always maintained that my gut says blizzard wins out.
but when the elephants fight the grass hurts. wcg is caught in middle....
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On March 03 2011 21:26 Phanekim wrote:
i'm not gonna pretend i know the legal ramifications. but i'm curious who comes out on top with this one. ive always maintained that my gut says blizzard wins out.
but when the elephants fight the grass hurts. wcg is caught in middle....
It's really too bad for WCG. They are the ones truly caught in an unfair situation. Here's hoping they find a solution to an impossible problem. For all our sakes.
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On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all.
The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was.
Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you.
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Or you can move out and take all the furniture with you and destroy the plumbing again, etc, etc.
And what would be left - nothing nobody would want.
If blizz wins we are left with nothing.
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On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment....
Dude u must really be high to even suggest that.
All those ppl that are pointing fingers at KesPA and saying they reaped profit from BW without paying due loyalty fee to Blizzard only sees the surface of the matter. It is really obnoxious how thin you guy's thought process is.
Have you guys ever heard of marketing? Yes Blizzard made the game, and they own the rights to the games. BUT THEY GET PAID by the customers who buy their games.
I can tell you right now that THE MAJOR source of marketing for BW/SC2 is the progaming scene, no doubt about it. Blizzard is getting KesPA and organizations such as WCG to market their product for FREE at no cost to them, and they are reaping incredible benefit from that.
KesPA making profits with something that Blizzard made? Please, KesPA let Blizzard reap financial gain that is 100, 1000, million times greater than whatever they have gained.(through game product and other related product sales)
(keep in mind that most of the income would have gone into expanding/developing E-sports scene)
For one, Blizzard is dumb for ignoring such marketing effect (economic loss for Blizzard IF all Blizzard games are not played on WCG would be huge) and second, all those anti-critics against KesPA, WCG, Samsung, etc, need to really get the basic concepts of economics and marketing.
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On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you.
The professional scene directly utilizes the Intellectual Property's images and products.
So yes, they have even more than just a fair say in what gets to go on in the scene.
and the apartment analogy.... lol really? do you have to warp your though process that much to make sense of the world as the way you want to see it?
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On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you.
blizzard owes kespa or any other esport company absolutely nothing. at the end of the day unless you want to buy blizzard out you'll do what they say if it means paying royalties towards their game used in tourneys/live streams/etc, just stfu and do it or don't play the game. it's that simple. I wish they'd lessen their hold on the product but that's not the case anymore.
you think they care about a small community like esports? they got enough money to pump out wow expansions till it dies like guitar hero.
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Germany1287 Posts
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On March 04 2011 10:14 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you. blizzard owes kespa or any other esport company absolutely nothing. at the end of the day unless you want to buy blizzard out you'll do what they say if it means paying royalties towards their game used in tourneys/live streams/etc, just stfu and do it or don't play the game. it's that simple. I wish they'd lessen their hold on the product but that's not the case anymore. you think they care about a small community like esports? they got enough money to pump out wow expansions till it dies like guitar hero.
blizzard owes kespa and the professional scene in general EVERYTHING. It's the reason why their games are selling like hotcakes. Do you honestly think that games like Starcraft will have anybody playing for +10 years if it werent for kespa promoting or organizing tournamants?
you want to know what Starcraft 2 would have been like if the professional scene for the first Starcraft 1 never existed? Look for games like CnC3 and Red Alert 3. Both of those games are leagues above Starcraft 2 in terms of gameplay, innovation, and fun, and they were both made specifically for online competitive gaming in mind, but hoho both games collapsed and forgotten because nobody cares about them anymore. And then EA no longer gives a damn and churn out a shitty CnC4 before promptly firing the whole CnC team so they can relocate their budget to make more war shooters lol.
look at it this way, there is a reason why Starcraft and Broodwar are still selling at a reasonable price after more than 10 years while games like CnC Red Alert and Tiberium Sun are now free for download at EA's official site, and it sure as hell isn't because of nostalgia.
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Why can't everyone stop being so biased. Kespa nuturing the esports community, yeah right. Like kespa would have grown to what it is if there wasn't alot of cash involved. Same with Blizzard, sure they have IP rights but they themselves haven't gotten SC/SC2 to where it's at today.
Both are big companies that, in the end, want control over potential revenue. People defending either one should really think about that.
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I think its perfectly fair to expect that if a company is using your product as a means to making money, that you should be entitled to some of that money. If your product is the sole reason for a company making money, then you have every right to expect some amount of compensation, why should they be allowed to mooch off your success?
What happens when everyone and their mother owns a copy of StarCraft 2, yet the tournaments are still going? If Blizzard are only making money from initial purchases (as it was), then these tournament companies would be collectively making more money than blizzard at the time from the advertisement and publication of the tournaments.
And really, whether the tournament company advertises the game or not is almost beside the point, it could also be seen as a subtle bribe by the tourney companies, a way of saying "don't sue us for using your game, look we advertise for you!". Perhaps it could be considered as a factor, and make the fees for using the game less, but to suggest that Blizzard aren't entitled to reap what they sow - gain any profit from tournaments using Blizzard's product to better themselves (make money), is just ludicrious. Its not how any other industry works (musicians demand royalities, as do directors/movie producers) and nor should it be.
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On March 04 2011 18:36 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 10:14 Asparagus wrote:On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you. blizzard owes kespa or any other esport company absolutely nothing. at the end of the day unless you want to buy blizzard out you'll do what they say if it means paying royalties towards their game used in tourneys/live streams/etc, just stfu and do it or don't play the game. it's that simple. I wish they'd lessen their hold on the product but that's not the case anymore. you think they care about a small community like esports? they got enough money to pump out wow expansions till it dies like guitar hero. blizzard owes kespa and the professional scene in general EVERYTHING. It's the reason why their games are selling like hotcakes. Do you honestly think that games like Starcraft will have anybody playing for +10 years if it werent for kespa promoting or organizing tournamants? you want to know what Starcraft 2 would have been like if the professional scene for the first Starcraft 1 never existed? Look for games like CnC3 and Red Alert 3. Both of those games are leagues above Starcraft 2 in terms of gameplay, innovation, and fun, and they were both made specifically for online competitive gaming in mind, but hoho both games collapsed and forgotten because nobody cares about them anymore. And then EA no longer gives a damn and churn out a shitty CnC4 before promptly firing the whole CnC team so they can relocate their budget to make more war shooters lol. look at it this way, there is a reason why Starcraft and Broodwar are still selling at a reasonable price after more than 10 years while games like CnC Red Alert and Tiberium Sun are now free for download at EA's official site, and it sure as hell isn't because of nostalgia.
You make this sound like a backyard debate.
KeSPA wound up finding a way for them to prosper using Blizzards' PROPERTY that also happens help Blizzard.
It doesn't change the fact that it's still Blizzard's property.
Unless KeSPA can prove on legal grounds that official terms were set between Blizzard and KeSPA previously (there hasn't been any) for KeSPA uninterrupted and continued use of Blizzard's IP for doing what they do, KeSPA can't say jack. They don't have the right to. And you've got to stop making analogies that turn Blizzard's PRODUCT into a tangible object. Intellectual Properties are not just tangible objects, it is all things that are tied into the tangible objects in question.
On a side note, who's to say the 4.2 million copies sold in Korea were all thanks to KESPA? Maybe they only helped to sell an additional million at most, or maybe even less, and well after the price cuts. Unless someone has a history of Starcraft sales over the 10 years, their arguement that Blizzard owes everything to KeSPA is also moot. Most of Blizzard's games (not including WoW) sell bulk of their shares in the first 2 years at most (most games don't sell beyond a year), at least that is what I recall based on the PRs I do remember for Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, and etc.
And even if KeSPA has benefited Blizzard before, KeSPA clearly hasn't considered whose IP they've been working this whole time with before they started get petulant about what THEY did for Blizzard. If Gom.tv can afford to make arrangements with Blizzard, I am inclined to think the breakdown probably had more to do with just how much Blizzard wanted KeSPA to pay them, if any at all. This whole deal jsut looks more like the negotiations and talks broke down, and whoever was holding the sword (Blizzard) got aggravated enough by a certain someone else.
And ignoring the actual owner and creator of the IP and saying KeSPA made Blizzard what it is is ridiculous. Without Blizzard, KeSPA would have never seen the light of day. While without KeSPA, Blizzard would have just lost some tail-end sales that most companies aren't as worried about anyway.
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On March 04 2011 19:10 XenoX101 wrote:
I think its perfectly fair to expect that if a company is using your product as a means to making money, that you should be entitled to some of that money. If your product is the sole reason for a company making money, then you have every right to expect some amount of compensation, why should they be allowed to mooch off your success?
What happens when everyone and their mother owns a copy of StarCraft 2, yet the tournaments are still going? If Blizzard are only making money from initial purchases (as it was), then these tournament companies would be collectively making more money than blizzard at the time from the advertisement and publication of the tournaments.
And really, whether the tournament company advertises the game or not is almost beside the point, it could also be seen as a subtle bribe by the tourney companies, a way of saying "don't sue us for using your game, look we advertise for you!". Perhaps it could be considered as a factor, and make the fees for using the game less, but to suggest that Blizzard aren't entitled to reap what they sow - gain any profit from tournaments using Blizzard's product to better themselves (make money), is just ludicrious. Its not how any other industry works (musicians demand royalities, as do directors/movie producers) and nor should it be.
Yea interesting point. A lot of musicians today (mainstream ones), make a bulk of their money that they don't make working their ass off for on tours from licensing. Any time a TV show, a movie, an ad, or another artist uses their songs.
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On March 04 2011 20:25 pikey26 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 18:36 Rashid wrote:On March 04 2011 10:14 Asparagus wrote:On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you. blizzard owes kespa or any other esport company absolutely nothing. at the end of the day unless you want to buy blizzard out you'll do what they say if it means paying royalties towards their game used in tourneys/live streams/etc, just stfu and do it or don't play the game. it's that simple. I wish they'd lessen their hold on the product but that's not the case anymore. you think they care about a small community like esports? they got enough money to pump out wow expansions till it dies like guitar hero. blizzard owes kespa and the professional scene in general EVERYTHING. It's the reason why their games are selling like hotcakes. Do you honestly think that games like Starcraft will have anybody playing for +10 years if it werent for kespa promoting or organizing tournamants? you want to know what Starcraft 2 would have been like if the professional scene for the first Starcraft 1 never existed? Look for games like CnC3 and Red Alert 3. Both of those games are leagues above Starcraft 2 in terms of gameplay, innovation, and fun, and they were both made specifically for online competitive gaming in mind, but hoho both games collapsed and forgotten because nobody cares about them anymore. And then EA no longer gives a damn and churn out a shitty CnC4 before promptly firing the whole CnC team so they can relocate their budget to make more war shooters lol. look at it this way, there is a reason why Starcraft and Broodwar are still selling at a reasonable price after more than 10 years while games like CnC Red Alert and Tiberium Sun are now free for download at EA's official site, and it sure as hell isn't because of nostalgia. You make this sound like a backyard debate. KeSPA wound up finding a way for them to prosper using Blizzards' PROPERTY that also happens help Blizzard. It doesn't change the fact that it's still Blizzard's property. Unless KeSPA can prove on legal grounds that official terms were set between Blizzard and KeSPA previously (there hasn't been any) for KeSPA uninterrupted and continued use of Blizzard's IP for doing what they do, KeSPA can't say jack. They don't have the right to. And you've got to stop making analogies that turn Blizzard's PRODUCT into a tangible object. Intellectual Properties are not just tangible objects, it is all things that are tied into the tangible objects in question. On a side note, who's to say the 4.2 million copies sold in Korea were all thanks to KESPA? Maybe they only helped to sell an additional million at most, or maybe even less, and well after the price cuts. Unless someone has a history of Starcraft sales over the 10 years, their arguement that Blizzard owes everything to KeSPA is also moot. Most of Blizzard's games (not including WoW) sell bulk of their shares in the first 2 years at most (most games don't sell beyond a year), at least that is what I recall based on the PRs I do remember for Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, and etc. And even if KeSPA has benefited Blizzard before, KeSPA clearly hasn't considered whose IP they've been working this whole time with before they started get petulant about what THEY did for Blizzard. If Gom.tv can afford to make arrangements with Blizzard, I am inclined to think the breakdown probably had more to do with just how much Blizzard wanted KeSPA to pay them, if any at all. This whole deal jsut looks more like the negotiations and talks broke down, and whoever was holding the sword (Blizzard) got aggravated enough by a certain someone else. And ignoring the actual owner and creator of the IP and saying KeSPA made Blizzard what it is is ridiculous. Without Blizzard, KeSPA would have never seen the light of day. While without KeSPA, Blizzard would have just lost some tail-end sales that most companies aren't as worried about anyway.
Based on this post, it's clear you haven't followed the whole issue before. Gretech basically got the broadcasting rights for free because they agreed to being blizzard's puppet and represent them in the court.
The reason why they agreed to those terms is because they're some insignificant utility software developer and do not have even a fraction of what KeSPA has to offer. Blizzard demanded the rights to the players, teams, broadcasting materials and so on. The only thing gretech had at that time was a crappy BW league, pretty much. The deal was jackpot for them, whereas from KeSPA's perspective it looked like blizzard telling them "keep investing millions of dollars into the scene/business while we take the ownership of everything".
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On March 04 2011 10:14 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 22:24 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 21:19 pikey26 wrote:On March 03 2011 14:09 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 13:30 mprs wrote:On March 03 2011 13:03 Rashid wrote:On March 03 2011 10:18 ImBakedBro wrote:
this whole situation is bit dumb honestly, i understand that in korea BW had become a big part of the culture but what they have 2 understand is it is Blizzard's game, now matter how they twist or turn it and right now it just sounds like SE has a bitter taste in their mouth from feeling "fucked over" by blizzard, however complete negligence to take into consideration the way BW had been part of the culture and how these companies turned a great RTS into YEARS of entertainment blizzard is also at fault, so in short i feel as if blizzard is a candy company, these korean companies r employs who have been stealing candy from them for years, and now blizzard finally cracked down on them while they had their mouths stuffed and little did the store owner know its employees had gained a candy addiction, so basically i feel like blizzard is still in the process of getting its employees out of its store, and with WCG on the line any result here is going to be felt through out the E-sport community, its kinda sad that these big corps play such a crucial role in our entertainment.... so? it's not like kespa pirated the games. they bought the copies legit like everybody else. Kespa merely uses the game as a means to conduct sporting events, just like you buy golf clubs and balls and a country club membership card to play golf, or buy a ball and book a field to play soccer. let me put it this way, imagine your favorite sport. Lets say it's soccer. Soccer is a public sport right? Nobody owns soccer. But soccer didn't just exist out of nowhere; somebody had to invent it sometime in the past. Imagine the inventor of soccer suddenly rises from the dead one day, and not only that, he also shows undeniable proof that he created the the sport in the first place, and that he has rights to royalties paid to him for every soccer tournament ever held. Which means everyone, from you all the way to FIFA will have to pay him money every time anybody so much wants to arrange a broadcasted tounrmanent. Sounds incredibly stupid right? I understand that IP rights are meant to protect developers, but that right has been abused for far too long and far too much by greedy corporations. Except if someone was allowed to patent Soccer, they would have monopoly and could do what Blizzard is doing. I believe you are not allowed to register sports. Who says i cant? Sure i cant patent sports like soccer or football or basketball, because they've existed for so long and is considered public domain, but I could invent a new sport called Extreme Nude Footbasketball, patent it, and from now on anybody who wants to play it or makes tournaments from my game, they'll have to follow my rules and pay me royalties. Imagine if instead of SC, Blizzard instead has a patent for Soccer. Imagine that you can only play on Blizzard-certified fields with Blizzard-certified balls with Blizzard-certified rules, or else you get banned from ever playing Soccer unless you pay $60 to get your ban lifted. Imagine that every time anybody ever wants to set up a tournament, they'd have to pay Blizzard royalty fees. Imagine that in every tournament, you'll need to invite a Blizzard employee over so that they can unlock the ball so that it wont lag so much. Except Blizzard made 'Soccer' in this case. Unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT of the public domain. And unlike Soccer, Starcraft is NOT a real sport, it's a game, that also belongs to an intellectual property, CREATED by a currently existing and functioning company. If there was any way to prove that soccer as it exists was created by a single man or entity, and if it was actually true, then that entity or man would most certainly be all over that shit. Speaking of Soccer, FIFA? gets to act like they made soccer and they own it as the 'official' governing body, simply because there isn't exactly a real definite group that 'created' soccer to put FIFA in their place (imo the people of the world, Some South American Tribe that invented it, England, and the rest of the world, in that order). And you know what? That organization is a money grubbing, greedy, and one of the world most corrupt disaster of an institution, probably something everything that KeSPA aspires to be. There's more than just evidence that Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED, and OWNS the intellectual property of Starcraft. They fucking made it, they're entitled to do whatever they want with the intellectual property and the product lines from the said property. They let KeSPA do their thing for a while, and then they decided they'd rather they didn't anymore, because they want to advance their vision of where they want the intellectual property to be headed towards. Why is this so complicated? There are no good analogies for this that remotely qualify your stance.
Sadly, international laws in general are just a fucking pain in the ass, and the greedy Korean organizations are allowed to continue acting like a petulant child about being 'robbed of' something that wasn't really theirs in the first place. ps. I know as someone who doesn't post here often, that I may be out of place. If I get temp-banned for this, I understand. I just felt it had to be said. This IS a forum after all. The complicated thing is just because Blizzard CREATED, PUBLISHED and OWN the intellectual property of Starcraft, that doesn't mean they own THE PROFESSIONAL GAMING SCENE that was grown and cultured largely by Kespa. Tell me, how many other Blizzard games that have survived for so long in competitive gaming with so many players like Starcraft? The answer is ZERO. I assure you, without Kespa actually making a commitment in growing the profesional gaming scene, Starcraft would have died 6-7 years ago or even sooner, regardless of how 'balanced' or 'great' 'or unique' the game was. Even the success of SCII was largely riding on the popularity of Starcraft 1 profesional scene, you know, the same exact professional scene that Kespa has spent years nurturing? It's like i rented a a rickety apartment from you, and then i furnished that apartment with all the cool furniture and wallpaper and carpeting and cool entertainment system and airconditioning and and fixed the plumbing and lighting and shit, and then 5 months later suddenly you decided you want your apartment back along with all the improvements i've made to the apartment including all the furniture and stuff, and when i told you that i made all those improvements, you tell me that i can stay but my rent is gonna be raised because the place looks soooo much nicer now. But hey that's greedy corporations for you. blizzard owes kespa or any other esport company absolutely nothing. at the end of the day unless you want to buy blizzard out you'll do what they say if it means paying royalties towards their game used in tourneys/live streams/etc, just stfu and do it or don't play the game. it's that simple. I wish they'd lessen their hold on the product but that's not the case anymore. you think they care about a small community like esports? they got enough money to pump out wow expansions till it dies like guitar hero.
Yes... lets do that... lets all do that...
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sigh... noobs be qq'ing....
im sure it will blow over, starcraft is one of WGC biggest attractions.
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On February 26 2011 04:59 shabbit wrote:
Why are people saying Blizzard screwed themselves? Granted, this may lock them out of more future tournaments later on, but the professional scene to play Blizzard games is already there and Blizzard's ultimate control of their IP rights ensures that they get more net profit from that than from any unascertainable growth from advertising that WCG and the like gives them.
Now if they were struggling to get advertisers and professionals invested in their games, then the battle over IP rights may have screwed Blizzard. I haven't seen any evidence of that though so Blizzard looks to have made the right business decision by going to war for the IP rights.
No offence but the words right and wrong dont belong in a sentance with business unless you are talking about making and losing money.
There is no doubt it was a profitable decision, but it was not the right decision
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Yeah I'm beginning to see that side of the issue. Though I still believe Blizzard's IP rights are ultimately theirs, it's hard to get behind their brute force tactics to wrest away total control of the competitive gaming scene away from KeSPA although the latter company didn't have any rights to the game. This was a scene where a symbiotic relationship could have formed - but Blizzard wanted full control and ultimately screwed the admittedly for-profit organization that did so much for the SC pro scene.
Though I agree that Blizzard's tactics here are not endearing, I likely would have done the same as they did. If I let things stay in KeSPA's hands and later disagreed with the way they were doing things, it would be much more difficult to pursue legal action after they had established themselves in SC2.
An alternative hypothetical, such as free-market competition (i.e. Blizzard-Gom vs. KeSPA both competing within the SC2 pro scene economically rather than legally) might be pretty entertaining, but would ultimately be less profitable. Plus, if the two sides didn't allow their players to play each other in tourneys (And that would be likely considering how hostile they've been in this argument), it would have been bad for the sport as a whole. Loosely using another sport metaphor, it'd be akin to the ABA-NBA competition in the 70's, which wasn't good for pro basketball until they merged.
I still believe in the necessity of IP rights to reward ingenuity and design, but Blizzard wielded that right like a sledgehammer.
PS - Does anybody else see the Blizzard-Apple parallels?
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Any new information on this topic? sorry for the bump.
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On March 10 2011 01:13 shabbit wrote:
Yeah I'm beginning to see that side of the issue. Though I still believe Blizzard's IP rights are ultimately theirs, it's hard to get behind their brute force tactics to wrest away total control of the competitive gaming scene away from KeSPA although the latter company didn't have any rights to the game. This was a scene where a symbiotic relationship could have formed - but Blizzard wanted full control and ultimately screwed the admittedly for-profit organization that did so much for the SC pro scene.
Though I agree that Blizzard's tactics here are not endearing, I likely would have done the same as they did. If I let things stay in KeSPA's hands and later disagreed with the way they were doing things, it would be much more difficult to pursue legal action after they had established themselves in SC2.
An alternative hypothetical, such as free-market competition (i.e. Blizzard-Gom vs. KeSPA both competing within the SC2 pro scene economically rather than legally) might be pretty entertaining, but would ultimately be less profitable. Plus, if the two sides didn't allow their players to play each other in tourneys (And that would be likely considering how hostile they've been in this argument), it would have been bad for the sport as a whole. Loosely using another sport metaphor, it'd be akin to the ABA-NBA competition in the 70's, which wasn't good for pro basketball until they merged.
I still believe in the necessity of IP rights to reward ingenuity and design, but Blizzard wielded that right like a sledgehammer.
PS - Does anybody else see the Blizzard-Apple parallels?
Blizzard owns the IP to the actual game, not the broadcasting of the gameplay which includes the player's competitions, the commentaries, the LAN network, the editing and many other things. Sure, they are entitled to some of the revenue generated by the broadcasts but they have no right to the players, the teams or anything else.
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does that mean dota is not gonna be there too, wow....
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EPT
