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On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition.
Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience).
Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008.
Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;;
Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns.
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When everybody wants everything nobody gets anything.
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On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard.
Thing is everyone has to go through gretech...which adds some uncertainty.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
This post is pure gold. I love you man.
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On February 26 2011 18:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:25 eviltomahawk wrote:The problem with the "forced BW to SC2" argument is that it the clause was only from a contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. After KeSPA pulled all the players and teams out of the GOM Classic tournaments, GOM had ZERO presence in the BW scene. Unless the same clause is found in proposed contracts between OGN/MBC and Blizzard, I don't think it's correct to assume that Blizzard is forcing a transition. Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues). Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience). Show nested quote +Also, I think Blizzard's stance is much deeper than simply greed. They've been trying to negotiate since 2007, and they couldn't really negotiate before due to the lack of the 2007 US-Korea trade agreement that provided a legal groundwork for negotiating foreign IP rights in Korea. Also, Blizzard didn't even merge with Activision until 2008. Trying to negotiate? Don't make me laugh... Did you see the list of their demands? They were saying "give everything you've worked so hard to build and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on for all those years, while promoting out own franchise or else we're shutting your business down". That is not negotiating. That's blackmail at best. ;; Also according to MBC (if I recall correctly) Hanbit Soft had an agreement with blizzard as regards the esports side of BW in Korea. They were the distributor of StarCraft in Korea (and I assume other blizzard titles) and a member of KeSPA at the same time. Blizzard never voiced any concerns.
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
and come on do you really believe that KeSPA didnt pull their players from the GOM league? How naive can you be. But of course they all had reasons lol. Every company has reasons for not admitting the truth.
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On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
It was specifically related to Proleague, not "BW tournaments" in general and they do own Proleague unless you think Blizzard owns everything their product is used for. MBC's MSL and OGN's OSL were still being broadcasted and played--sorta. Also, EULAs aren't, and never have been, legally binding.
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On February 26 2011 22:01 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:12 Raelgar wrote:
Blizzard started it's lawsuit in 2007 after KeSPA started demanding money from the broadcasting stations for showing the BW tournaments. And guess what that is ,by the terms that everyone has to agree to when you install BW, pretty much illegal. It doesnt matter what KeSPA did before and after that, they have no legal basis to demand money for a product that they do not own. End of story
It was specifically related to Proleague, not "BW tournaments" in general and they do own Proleague unless you think Blizzard owns everything their product is used for. MBC's MSL and OGN's OSL were still being broadcasted and played--sorta. Also, EULAs aren't, and never have been, legally binding.
well try selling self made copys of games then you'll see pretty fast how binding a EULA is.
KeSPA owns proleague that's right, but KeSPA does not own the right to use Proleague and with that StarCraft to make money with it. In order to do that they would have to ask Blizzard if they are allowed to use their product for that.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title.
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On February 26 2011 22:12 Raelgar wrote:
well try selling self made copys of games then you'll see pretty fast how binding a EULA is.
You get owned for breaking the law not EULA .
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end user license agreement
license that's the point you got a license to use the game for your enjoyment not a free pass to do what ever you want with it
the EULA is part of the law, not some different entity that has nothing to do with the law.
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On February 25 2011 16:45 GTR wrote:
Rumors flying around on several sites that Busan will be hosting this years WCG.
And yeh, problems relating to Blizzard were bound to happen sooner or later. Will be interesting how this ends up.
Busan is a beautiful city, right near the coast. But I'm glad that the biggest international e-sports tournament is biting Blizzard's ass. A lesson in karma I would say.
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On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa.
Awesome post! +++!!
(This site needs a + - vote function for posts)
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On February 26 2011 13:38 StimedPylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:04 supernovamaniac wrote:On February 26 2011 10:01 StimedPylon wrote:
KeSPA killing eSports by proxy via Samsung, good going. Instead of helping eSports, grow let's have a feud. Just Pathetic.
They're trying to take as much of everything they can since they know they can only stall their defeat in the courts. Basically like a BM Terran floating to an island and making 10 turrets. Except Blizzard is killing the BW scene by trying to force BW players into SC2 scene. Good going. [citation required] They'd just pull the BW servers and send C&D letters to all the illegal servers such as ICCup if they wanted to really kill the BW fanbase. Also BW has helped eSports all it could, clinging to it now is just gonna kill other potential new great games besides SC2. KeSPA doesn't even care about other games, they seem them as a threat to to their BW milking via the illegal broadcast fees they get. They know Blizzard will win the within a year, maybe two at the most and they're just gonna suck as much as possible.
You need to keep up with what's happening
If you're still clueless go read the second Blizzard vs MBC/OGN case
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On February 26 2011 22:32 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:15 Suvorov wrote:On February 26 2011 13:17 Greg_J wrote:
Lets not forget that the Broodwar scene was created by Korea, by OGN by MBC game and by Kespa with no help at all from Blizzard. It grew bigger and bigger with help from huge corporate sponsorship from companies like Samsung. Samsung helped hugely with the formation and funding of WCG and everything was good for what 10 years. Then Blizzard came along.
The ownership stuff is so stupid , blizzard didn't create E sports Blizzard didn't do anything with Starcraft except disgard it and try to sell thier new games. Korea created Esports, companies like Sansung created Esports and then Blizzard decided 'wait we want in on this' 10 years latter when it finally looked fincailly lucrative, give us moneys. Completely agree with you Greg. It's part of the new attitude at blizzard ever since activision/vivendi took over. In the name of profits, they are literally stopping the blizz-related esports community as a whole from thriving and growing to what it should be. Often I hear the question "Why don't e-sports become as big as sports'? Gee let's see what sports have and sc2 doesn't: SPORTS 1.- Can play football, soccer, basketball, volleyball, etc without supervision 2.- Can play the above officially or unoficially 3.- Can start your own tournies without paying any royalties to anyone 4.- Can profit from any business endeavours related to them 5.- Because of all the points above, there's 10000 tournaments, leagues and opportunities for rising players to shine and current starts to keep on shining E-SPORTS (SC2 namely) 1.- CAN ONLY play it ONLINE, ONLY through battle.net supervision 2.- Can only play officially through b.net 3.- Gotta pay license fees (if they even let you run for-profit tournies) to daddy blizzard 4.- Can't seem to profit from anything related to the game unless you pay your dues 5.- Very few quality tournaments with very little access to unheard of players, let alone rising teams, the biggest of which is in Korea and well uhmm, not everybody wants/can/plans to go there Not letting people get involved closer to the game almost certainly guarantees it won't grow big. And yes blizzard, if people invest a good portion of their time into doing so, they expect profits, plain and simple. The soccer hats vendor makes a profit. The guy that sells autographed tshirts makes a profit, the guy that produces footballs makes a profit, etc. etc. How do you pretend e-sports will grow with these retarded limitations? It's a miracle SCBW became what it did despite all odds being against it. And now that Korea and its people finally made it all possible and set all the precedents...you're trying to cut them out of the game or at least steal their hard work and/or profit from it? Where were you when scbw had seemingly died (commercially) and koreans kept playing the game? Did you ever fix the b.net ladder? Did you ever organize a real tournament? Did you ever support the birth of an e-sports movement for scbw? Yeah, that's what I thought. I support Samsung/Kespa. I would add under the reasons why e-sports can't grow like other sports that the gaming company can just shut down their current game whenever they make a new game, even if that game is hugely inferior to the previous one. I would just love I if they pulled the plug on BN2.0 when they release their next title.
If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure.
Stop making shit up. KeSPA never pulled all the players. Most teams had valid reason to pull out of that shitty tournament (sure it had English caster, but overall the production level was very low, I'd say garbage compared to KeSPA leagues).
Gretech staff have made it clear they want ProLeague out of the equation since it's damaging their own league (because they can't make it good enough to appeal to their own audience).
Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread.
It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
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Plenty of organizations are holding events just fine. This is a problem with Samsung. If the problem was Blizzard, other organizations wouldn't be using Blizzard games either.
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On February 27 2011 01:55 StimedPylon wrote:
If by hugely inferior you mean "focuses more on actual strategy and not as much on mechanical speed/reflexes" then yea, sure.
It's more like strategy plays the same role in both games, but mechanical skill plays less of a role in SC2 than SC:BW. Throw in the lack of LAN in SC2, which is pretty ridiculous for a serious competitive game and I'd say that SC2 is absolutely inferior in several respects despite the fact that I do feel it has improved in certain aspects such as observer tools. Honestly I don't know where this "SC2 is more about strategy." argument came from, but it's simply not true. Perhaps it just seems that way because SC2 is a younger game that's still undergoing balance changes and in the process of being "figured out".
Self-brainwashing can really be a powerful thing. Wow, just wow with some of the KeSPA supporters in this thread.
It's ok guys, KeSPA painted themselves in a corner and I'll enjoy watching them crash and burn epically because they were even too stubborn to even consider trying to actually negotiate.
I'm really not sure why people are turning KeSPA into villains for not allowing their players to play in a competing league, particularly one that's being supported by a company that seems hell bent on destroying them. What would any sensible organization do in that situation? Would you fault the NFL for not allowing their players to play in the XFL (if it still existed)? Of course not. It's a ridiculous argument.
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big corporations like blizzard and Samsung always screw users for their own business interests.
I hope WCG don't host blizzard games and be a failure for both blizzard and samsung and wake up and start praying to consumers instead of screwing them.
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On February 27 2011 03:28 thehitman wrote:
big corporations like blizzard and Samsung always screw users for their own business interests.
I hope WCG don't host blizzard games and be a failure for both blizzard and samsung and wake up and start praying to consumers instead of screwing them.
I don't think Samsung cares all that much if WCG is a failure. Between Blizzard and Samsung, Blizzard has more to lose here. Of course the WCG itself has the most to lose either way since it's essentially a choice between preserving their biggest sponsor or keeping their biggest games. Either way, they're pretty screwed here.
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This KeSPA/Blizzard/SC2 nonsense seems to be complicating a lot of tournaments/proposed tournaments.
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Fuck the Facebook movie, lets make one of this.
I wonder if the pros have said anything regarding the blizzard request of not being able to represent Korea in the WCG (In case SC gets accepted). Maybe they just dont care hard enough?
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EPT
