EPTIf everyone just emailed blizzard, or if there was enough backlash in blog posting ect, you could get te hstory picked up on red it, digg, ect, maybe even cable news. The point being we should say something do something about it.
OGN/MBCGame vs Blizzard, Second Session - Page 6
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
If everyone just emailed blizzard, or if there was enough backlash in blog posting ect, you could get te hstory picked up on red it, digg, ect, maybe even cable news. The point being we should say something do something about it. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech. It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone. I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen. Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51622 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:17 Djzapz wrote: Pretty sad if you ask me, seems like Blizzard is actively trying to kill off SCBW.... This is sickening. It's only sickening because you believe that it's true. I don't believe it is true because they said that that they won't kill ofBW just like that.....unfortunately they have no choice but to stick to their word for the community even it they have no intention of doing so..... Either way Blizzard is pretty much screwed......they should just drop the case and try fixing their own isssues so that we can start trusting them as we have come to trust in KeSPA | ||
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Meldon
Greece128 Posts
No worries the whole things' goal is to prevent the strong BW infrastructure in korea to suppress SC2 developement, and no matter who the winner is, it has been achieved. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
On January 28 2011 15:42 Waxangel wrote: ohhh they're actually suing them for damages, I just thought they were filing an injunction to prevent them from broadcasting  I may be mistaken, but I think by giving Blizzard as much money as they are suing for in a winning lawsuit, it would only open the doors for Blizzard to sue again if the league progresses. Similar to how courts in America can win cases by referring to previous similar judgments, would they not be entitled to sue again and again and again and again so long as SC1 tournaments are held (effectively shutting them down, injunction or not.) As I said, could be mistaken. Throwing this question out there for someone smarter to answer. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On January 29 2011 00:49 Milkis wrote: The DES bit makes it a bit more interesting, a very clarifying update to the OP was made The contract that had that clause was between Blizzard and Gretech, an agreement that was signed in May. So this 100% confirms that Blizzard and Gretech wants a transition from Starcraft to Starcraft 2. MBC picked up on this and slammed Blizzard about it, asking why they would want their rights protected if they have no intention of doing anything with it. Absolute revulsion, I definitely did not wish Blizzard would really be that greedy about this entire thing but honestly I'm not surprised judging by the fact that Blizzard suddenly brings this to court and forces Gretech to stop negotiating with KeSPA when the negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. Absolutely retarded. I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post. First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause. This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech. It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone. I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen. Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible. it would be ogn/mbc being greedy not kespa, kespa is non profit. But in reality what this is all ab is really blizzard trying to cash in on the esports cow. For years sc bw was built up by non blizzard entities, so much so that blizzard can not actually enter the market for there own game. If blizzard tried to be a competitor of ogn or mbc, in korea theyd fail as hard as Gom did. So realizing this they simply enetered the market the only way they could with out simply being a small player with mbc and ogn, they sued their way in. Under the mask of IP rights, they have basically stopped ogn and mbc from created sc2 leagues, or sc2 pro teams, now blizzard can step in an attempt to fill that void. IMO they dont understand what made sc bw big, or how to run an e-sport, as seen from theyre handling of sc2 so far, but thats not the point, what is the point is they have now put themselves in a position to be a major player, an option they didnt have before, Of course this law suite is worthless, they know that. They were at best hoping to get lucky. But ask yourself this, if blizzard had never sued kespa, what sc2 league would we be watching? If kespa had gone unhindered, we would probably already see pro teams for sc2, or sc2 divisions for all major teams. But the attack on scbw forced ogn and mbcs hand, they had to ensure theyre cashf low remained uninterrupted, so they had to ensure that players and fans werent leaving broodwar, which is why we saw all the taxes, lack of pro gamer switching or even statements about sc2 by anyone (progamer, coach ect), besides sparse comments. You have to think that big names, the top players have all thought, man I bet i could destroy kids in sc2. Blizzard controls the creativity of it too. They host the maps, choose the map pool, and all but killed any ums settings they dont sponsor, because they want to be major players. No sc2 tournament will feature non blizz maps, no ums will become dota. Its all a game, now no matter what happens, Gsl is the largest sc2 tourney out there, and blizzard is in. Whether or not they kill bw is inconsequential, because I think blizzard just wants to run sc2, because they want to be kespa and theyre forcing their way in. Because if they didn't the best they could hope for would be some third rate cut, or ad deals, from ogn and mbc and they dream bigger than that. Thats all this ip bs is about, they dont care if they lose at this point because they think theyve won. Who knows, I honestly beleive they dont understand the industry enough to keep the organization alive, but then again its blizzard, one of those talented kids will figure it out. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:32 BLinD-RawR wrote: It's only sickening because you believe that it's true. I don't believe it is true because they said that that they won't kill ofBW just like that.....unfortunately they have no choice but to stick to their word for the community even it they have no intention of doing so..... Either way Blizzard is pretty much screwed......they should just drop the case and try fixing their own isssues so that we can start trusting them as we have come to trust in KeSPA It's true to a certain extent regardless. That's why they're not updating SCBW so it works well on Windows 7 and such. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:28 eviltomahawk wrote: I think everyone is completely overreacting to the "transition from SC1 to SC2" clause. This was contract between Gretech and Blizzard, not OGN/MBC and Blizzard. It could be that Gretech had already planned on adopting an SC2 league beforehand, and that this contract clause only served as an official wording to this transition. There is nothing on whether or not this clause was ever forced on Gretech. It says nothing about whether or not Blizzard wanted to force SC2 onto OGN/MBC since this contract had nothing to deal with them, only Gretech. It could be possible that Blizzard/Gretech may have proposed a completely different contract to OGN/MBC during negotiations. Unless the same clause is found in some leaked documents from those negotiations, it is not valid proof that Blizzard wants to force a transition to SC2 from everyone. I don't think Blizzard wants to or is even capable of forcing Korea to fully transition to SC2. I think they just want a voice in BW after years of KeSPA being its sole authority, especially since any broadcast of SC2 on OGN/MBC will require the consent of KeSPA to allow its progamers to do so. Personally, I think they were completely justified in negotiating IP rights with KeSPA, though the lawsuit is taking things too far. Perhaps if Blizzard or KeSPA conceded on some of the most debated terms, then maybe all this drama won't happen. Then again, it is also plausible that Blizzard may be greedy. Or not. Perhaps it is KeSPA that is greedy. Or not. Both are corporate entities that probably have profit motives driving their positions on this issue. I feel that this conflict is not a battle between black and white but instead a battle between shades of grey. No matter who wins or who we support, the damage has already been done, and both sides will be responsible. I agree that people are overreacting. A clause requesting Gretech to make the "transition" smooth can refer to many different things. So far they've helped any pro-gamer who switched from SC1 to SC2 and accepted them with open arms, rather than ban them. There are some people here assuming it means the goal is to kill BW but the other possibilities are far too easily overlooked. I don't see anything about forcing the transition, only making it smooth. I certainly don't think it's "100% proof Blizzard wants to kill BW" as many keep preaching. It's pretty lame that people are eating up any little anti-Blizzard sentiment they can find. The entire thing has never been black & white but to most BW elitists- if it fucks with BW it can go to hell. When it comes to Blizz vs BW stuff people jump on the BW side far too fast and promote explanations that may not even be true. Remember, Daily e-Sports was the journalist outlet that slandered and attempted to tarnish NaDa's name for switching. It's hard to take anything they say without a big chunk of salt. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:52 Antoine wrote: I'm going to go ahead and... directly disagree with this post. First of all it makes sense that Blizzard would sign an agreement with Gretech, who previously broadcast sc1, to switch to sc2. Since we don't have the full text of the contract, it's impossible to say factually whether they meant the elimination of all sc1 competition as so many fervent haters seem to think Second of all I will strongly refute your assertion that negotiations were going smoothly between Gretech and KeSPA. They had an NDA on the discussions that was being broken left and right, mostly by the BW side of things. No tangible progress was being made. The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts. Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations. | ||
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tapk69
Portugal264 Posts
Blizzard doesnt want to kill BW scene , they just want to make it small compared to the SC2 scene. Again i agree with this.. BW isnt poker , outside of Korea almost nobody knows or sees BW.. Kids that join RTS games nowadays don´t want SC1 , they want SC2 .. The people i see here complain about blizzard , must understand that SC2 has a very big future ahead and BW doesnt , the BW community will get smaller not bigger.. And other thing Blizzard made the best games i´ve played Diablo 1 was the bomb , SC1 also and SC2 is a nuclear one ... So thank them , don´t insult a company that has given you happy feelings after you bought their products.. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6322 Posts
On January 29 2011 03:15 Milkis wrote: The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts. Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations. Did kespa also say why they didn't progress? And why don't you question kespa while you do question anything blizzard does. I don't know a whole lot about this but what I do know is that negotiations come from 2 sides and when they stagnate it comes from both sides and not one. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 28 2011 22:31 teamsolid wrote: True, but it's difficult to tell whether or not they had already tried the co-existence approach in the beginning. At least from their side of the story, they claimed to have been trying to negotiate w/KeSPA for 3+ years and were met with hostility. It's also quite possible, that all of that is PR bullshit. No one really knows what happened, except it turned sour at one point or another and here we are. Maybe i'm biased but i feel it's Blizzard are the ones who would be breaking negotiatations. It's not like KeSPA couldn't theoretically gain from a new game to run too. I have a feeling that all proteams would already have SC2 divisions and leagues would be set up if left to them. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On January 29 2011 02:53 gk_ender wrote: it would be ogn/mbc being greedy not kespa, kespa is non profit. But in reality what this is all ab is really blizzard trying to cash in on the esports cow. For years sc bw was built up by non blizzard entities, so much so that blizzard can not actually enter the market for there own game. If blizzard tried to be a competitor of ogn or mbc, in korea theyd fail as hard as Gom did. So realizing this they simply enetered the market the only way they could with out simply being a small player with mbc and ogn, they sued their way in. Under the mask of IP rights, they have basically stopped ogn and mbc from created sc2 leagues, or sc2 pro teams, now blizzard can step in an attempt to fill that void. IMO they dont understand what made sc bw big, or how to run an e-sport, as seen from theyre handling of sc2 so far, but thats not the point, what is the point is they have now put themselves in a position to be a major player, an option they didnt have before, Of course this law suite is worthless, they know that. They were at best hoping to get lucky. But ask yourself this, if blizzard had never sued kespa, what sc2 league would we be watching? If kespa had gone unhindered, we would probably already see pro teams for sc2, or sc2 divisions for all major teams. But the attack on scbw forced ogn and mbcs hand, they had to ensure theyre cashf low remained uninterrupted, so they had to ensure that players and fans werent leaving broodwar, which is why we saw all the taxes, lack of pro gamer switching or even statements about sc2 by anyone (progamer, coach ect), besides sparse comments. You have to think that big names, the top players have all thought, man I bet i could destroy kids in sc2. Blizzard controls the creativity of it too. They host the maps, choose the map pool, and all but killed any ums settings they dont sponsor, because they want to be major players. No sc2 tournament will feature non blizz maps, no ums will become dota. Its all a game, now no matter what happens, Gsl is the largest sc2 tourney out there, and blizzard is in. Whether or not they kill bw is inconsequential, because I think blizzard just wants to run sc2, because they want to be kespa and theyre forcing their way in. Because if they didn't the best they could hope for would be some third rate cut, or ad deals, from ogn and mbc and they dream bigger than that. Thats all this ip bs is about, they dont care if they lose at this point because they think theyve won. Who knows, I honestly beleive they dont understand the industry enough to keep the organization alive, but then again its blizzard, one of those talented kids will figure it out. Well, I do recall that though KeSPA is "nonprofit," their leadership and representatives consist heavily of the corporate sponsors for the teams and leagues, so I don't think they are completely immune from corporate influences. Blizzard has been in negotiations with KeSPA and OGN/MBC for years since 2007 about broadcasting rights, yet none of those negotiations have ever been successful. The IP rights issue is way too old for it to be considered as a "conspiracy" for Blizzard to stifle all other competition. They probably want OGN/MBC to create SC2 leagues, though until negotiations with KeSPA are successful, this won't be happening. Despite these years of negotiations, a few topics in regards to league fees and IP rights being extended to matches and replays have forced a complete standstill between Blizzard and KeSPA due to their wildly different opinions on them, especially in regards to IP rights. Though most of the negotiations have gone smoothly, its just a few topics that have caused disagreement up until now, and Blizzard/Gretech pretty much started suing when it became apparent to them that these disagreements are completely irreconcilable. Also, KeSPA's embargo on SC2 is not recent and goes back a long way to before SC2 was even released. When negotiations went sour between Gretech and KeSPA a few years ago, KeSPA forced a majority of players and teams to pull out of the GOM Classic BW tournament, thus causing it to completely flop. Since then, KeSPA has kept a strict control over its players playing in anything that was non-KeSPA sanctioned, especially in regards to tournaments run by Gretech and Blizzard. This embargo was enforced long before the negotiations turned into a lawsuit, and it is probably one of the main reasons that Blizzard wants to have a voice in the BW scene. If this lawsuit never happened, KeSPA still would never allow for its players and teams to transition over to SC2. KeSPA is an authority on BW, not SC2, and it wants to remain that way. If Blizzard kept its hands out of the Korean scene, then KeSPA would be perfectly fine with keeping its embargo and letting the SC2 flunk as long as the BW stays vibrant and profitable. Currently, it sees SC2 as a competitor, not an opportunity, so it has remained very hostile to the SC2 scene. | ||
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Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On January 29 2011 03:15 Milkis wrote: The point is that it's binding Gretech so that they work towards taking over the BW Starcraft Scene -- the thing that bought me over is that they want the professional players to switch over from BW to SC2 when SC2 becomes available and Gretech should do all it can to make this happen. This directly relates to the scene and not broadcasts. Secondly, Gretech and KeSPA has progressed quite far in negotiations. There has been some sour moments, and it is definitely not just BW side breaking NDA (Gretech did that plenty by themselves too). I don't see any reason to doubt KeSPA's words that there weren't progress in the negotiations. It said they should "use its best efforts to make [...] smooth transition of professional players". As I read it, it doesn't say anything about making players switch over. Rather, it says that Gretech should make the transition of those who do choose to switch over as smooth as possible, which is quite reasonable. | ||
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seRapH
United States9830 Posts
And honestly I'm not even surprised. | ||
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
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