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On November 05 2010 02:32 JIJIyO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 02:27 night terrors wrote:On November 05 2010 02:23 JIJIyO wrote:
Hey man, we're just trying to protect our rights. Hey man, we're just trying to protect our rights. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm on BW's side. I'm just mocking Blizzard because I'm getting tired of hearing that every single time =/
I know, Im right there with you. I was mocking that these thread usually go like that.
"-Hey man, we're just trying to protect our rights
-Hey man, we're just trying to protect our rights
-Hey man, we're just trying to protect our rights
-HEY MAN, we're just trying to protect OUR rights"
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As I said, suing MBC was a good legal tactic by Blizzard and now OGN. By going them after first, you can stall and delay, and stop the broadcast of "illegally" ran tournaments, instead of fighting KeSPA first for a longer legal battle.
And of course, Blizzard can try to sue KeSPA, as well, but the big problem is, KeSPA is made from many other parties. If Blizzard does win, then those other parties will have to pay up for the settlement, since KeSPA states itself as a NPO.
I still love the original SC and BW and the games that Blizzard have made, but I am no fanatic of either party in this whole mess. I do question some of the actions that Blizzard has made directly and indirectly into their lastest games and also to their gaming community.
However, I do believe that KeSPA really got themselves into this mess in the first place, and if they do fall, it is by their ignorance. They state that e-sports is not a profitable venture, which is likely true IMO, and that they are running into deficits each year just running the leagues. For three years, they couldn't negotiate or settle this matter knowing that they are already losing revenue for maintaining their current structure. I would of hoped if that they would of just agreed to Blizzard's terms, however how "unfair" it is, they could at least get Blizzard's approval and sponsorship. Blizzard is already sponsoring the GSLs and other tournaments. Companies are not likely going to sponsor KeSPA SCBW sanctioned tournaments due to possible legal action by Blizzard if they do so.
This is a very interesting case for me, because I am a law student, and that a game has an enormous impact of a culture. I do wonder how the Korean courts will handle this matter of IP rights. I wonder if Blizzard loses, will they turn to the US and WTO, and maybe WCO for help.
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On November 05 2010 06:30 papaz wrote:
2. How can Blizzard lose something like this? This isn't like football or anything. This is a product made and own by Blizzard and they have the right to their own game, or?
Blizzard was only interested in IP rights in 2007 when SC2 was announced. Blizzard has been aware of televised events for years, and in fact, Blizzard employees have frequently attended pro-StarCraft matches on numerous occasions. Even in the beginning when pro-Brood War was first getting started. The court will definitely be interested as to why Blizzard was okay with it then but isn't okay with it now.
KeSPA, OGN, and MBC have created an industry off of a game that Blizzard created. There is no good precedent for this case and MBC/OGN lawyers will likely argue that they're protected as their players are simply using software that Blizzard created to make something unique. I'd imagine it's the same defense a group like MLG would use if a developer ever tried to shut them down.
Copyrights laws aren't as strong as people like to think they are and I don't know enough about Korean law to really make an educated opinion on the court case, I just know that the case could very easily go either way.
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On November 05 2010 05:00 Assymptotic wrote:Show nested quote +
30k$ a year while u get a house and food for free? shit no that doesnt suck.
I don't know how the standard of living holds in Korea, but here, if I work 72-84 hour weeks within an unstable field where I have to forgo my eduction, with very little prospect of moving up (due to S-class players who stomp me), and only get paid $30,000 with room/meal, I would not be happy. To top it off, most of these progamers don't seem to have much freedom; when was the last time you heard of a progamer with a girlfriend? These guys are at the age where you're just horny as hell.
if i get 30k a year for not being great. and get anything else sponsored god damn yes i feel lucky and happy.
so tell me which pro in any kind of sport has freedom? its the god damn sacrifice if you want 2 become a pro in every single sport/game.
well the last time i heard of a progamer with a girlfriend is not 2 long ago  stork
but iam pretty sure the price hunting you have right now is way better ! right?
oh and you also have to consider its korea and not US /europe.
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Seriously, if I was making 30k a year at the age of 15-17 in a country where it's absurdly hard to find a job in your 20s I'd consider myself really fucking fortunate.
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The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
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On November 04 2010 21:14 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.' Blizzard disgusts me
I completely agree with this.
Before, I was giving Blizzard some slack because they were fighting only with MBCGame & Kespa... and both do act pretty sketchy.
But now, Blizzard is intentionally trying to kill off ALL OF BW. There's no other word for it. If they actually CARED, they would let something that has existed for a DECADE continue as usual, but NOW they suddenly care so much about IP rights of a game created over a decade ago??? And they've been letting OGN & MBC broadcast it for FREE???
IMO Blizzard should be paying OGN and MBC for free advertising and popularization of SCBW into something greater than just a video game. Blizzard owes a huge part of SC2's success to the Korean Scene, which was all created by OGN, MBC, and Kespa... and yet now it wants to kill off everything.
Utterly disgusted.
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they really should have settled this out of courts ffs....
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They can't settle this out of court. They have been trying for three years, and no luck, so they have to settle this in court. That's what going to court is all about, to get a legal settlement between parties.
However, I do agree that it should of not come to this.
EDIT- Another thing, people always seem have this conceptual idea that going to court is a bad thing. If parties can't come to an agreement or settlement, why keep fighting when you can settle it by law.
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Note: The following is my own opinion as I'm not qualified to make factual statements about anything regarding this issue.
I don't think Blizzard is going to kill KeSPA. If they die it's because they stubbornly held out and killed themselves. Once (if) OGN and MBC comply with the fee & 50-50 IP rights debacle or whatever the agreement they come to, Blizzard will allow them to continue their leagues. I mean, if MBC and OGN comply, what can Blizzard say they're doing wrong then? Nothing. And it'd be stupid for anyone to believe they'd push any further than that to "kill BW" because that'd erase all support from Korean citizens. KeSPA may still be pissy with Blizzard afterwards but without OGN/MBC, the Proleague cant air, so they'll have to accept it if they want to live. People say it's not so profitable so the fees are too much, but KeSPA is full of Big, Rich, Corporations. All they have to do is write it off as advertising (which is what their teams are made for - or should be) and everything's fine.
The ideal way I think this can (and should) work is:
1. OGN/MBC want to air BW for ratings, so they contract a deal with Blizzard/Gretech for permission.
2. KeSPA want's its teams (faces of the sponsors) in BW leagues for advertisement, so they contract a deal with OGN/MBC to pay some/all the fees.
3. OSL/MSL/Proleague continue, OGN/MBC get ratings, KeSPA (Sponsors) get's advertisement, and because of Sponsors happy with their names plastered on TV, they in turn continue funding their teams to better the team's (and in turn the Sponsors name!) success, popularity, and stability.
4. Blizzard is happy people respect their IP rights, Gretech is happy people respect their contract to sub-license broadcasting for Blizzard games, OGN/MBC are happy they get tons of people tuning in to their channels, KeSPA (Sponsors) is/are happy that people think of Samsung, SKT, etc etc when watching BW, Fans are happy they're still able to watch BW.
Afterthought: Trust builds between the different parties, SC2 may also be broadcast on awesome channels bringing in even more viewers, BW dies of natural death when (if) it's not so popular anymore, Sponsors create SC2 teams for further (international) advertisement, and e-Sports truly grows.
What can I say, I'm an optimist! :D
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On November 04 2010 21:14 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +Paul Sams, Chief Operating Officer of Blizzard, said 'We asked OGN to either acquire the legal right to broadcast or stop the process of the league, but all we got in return was the already planned schedule of new OSL. This only meant that they'd go forward without our consent.' He also said 'We strongly believe that OSL and GSL can co-exist, and we wish the best with the OGN programs. However, it is more important that we protect our rights, and it's a shame that we have to sort this out in such a way.' Blizzard disgusts me
^ Exactly how I feel.
I wonder if this is related to bobby kotick anyhow.. I mean he did come into power in '07...
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All they have to do is write it off as advertising (which is what their teams are made for - or should be) and everything's fine.
A team just disbanded this year because the sponsor couldn't afford/didn't want to pay for it. It's very likely that Blizzard generates more money annually than OGN, MBC, or KeSPA. Blizzard isn't interested in royalties nor are they interested in letting the scene continue nor are they interested in IP rights. They want BW to get out of the way so that the BW fans will be forced to move on to SC2. Why would they let this scene go on for over a decade and only try to destroy it and file a lawsuit when their sequel comes out and begins airing on Korean television?
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On November 05 2010 07:34 Pleiades wrote:
The problem is, most progamers don't make 30k a year.
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
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Wow, can't believe OSL might get shut down.
OGN is pretty much screwed as I understand.
I don't think its that bad.
OGN did this very intentionally.
They must be assuming that the probable legal outcome is better than just agreeing to Gretech's terms.
Sure, they might get their power cut in the middle of a match.
But if they thought that likely, they would have just renewed their contract.
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On November 05 2010 07:27 overt wrote:
Seriously, if I was making 30k a year at the age of 15-17 in a country where it's absurdly hard to find a job in your 20s I'd consider myself really fucking fortunate.
How is it absurdly hard to find a job in South Korea?
All the misinformation in these threads make me sick.
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On November 05 2010 05:47 orgolove wrote:
It's so funny. 99% of Korean netizens support Blizzard and disparage KeSPA. 99% of foreigners here support KeSPA and disparage Blizzard.
I support broodwar. Source on the 99% of koreans supporting blizzard over kespa on this situation?
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2010 08:21 ffreakk wrote:
Your source? Flash earned 400 Mil won last year, his salary is about half that (the other half is price money).. It make sense that a lesser pro player would earn 1/10 of that. Unless you you can present evidence that suggest otherwise.
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
SC1: Only a few people earning big money (about 370k/year max? aka Flash's earning last year).. The rest get paid a significantly smaller amount (30k/year on average according to unverified sources).. Housing and food paid for..
How do some people can even say that there is more money to be had in GSL (sc2) is a mystery to me.
All these talks on working conditions and girlfriend is garbage, imo.. Its so far out of point that clearly people who mentioned this is only saying so in hope of making the other side look more negative.. And in case those need being addressed (some already are), Stork has gf (as mentioned by someone else) and Light pimp after games like nobody's business.
Regarding training time/working hour.. The standard training hour for A-teamers = 10 hours/day.. Any extra training is carried out under the player's own volition and fueled only by his desire to get better.. 10 hours/day is a VERY normal amount for working adults where i came from.. My friend who graduated from University recently now works as a trainee manager for Charles and Kleith, as well as a few others, works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week.. It is much worse in places like Japan (average get-home time 9pm? o.O).. Just because in the US people get off work asap doesnt mean that culture applies everywhere in the world.. More to the point: the progamers' working condition isnt even close to being bad.. Plus getting to work towards ur dreams is a luxury enjoyed by few.. Most wither away behind a generic office table.
Since more discussions and analogies and such wont be appreciated by most.. I would just express my hope that Blizzard fail to exert their dominance and that the e-Sport scene will continue to flourish.
PS: For the guys that claims that SC2 is a great game.. Sorry to offend, but in my honest opinion you are likely newbies to the gaming scene to be able to pass SC2 off as "great".. If you can, you can look up (or try playing) their older products and list down on paper their pros, cons and features of innovation, you will be able to see for yourself the general trend of quality in their releases. For a quick reference, SC:BW and Diablo2 was legendary, WC3 + TFT was good, SC2 is ... Also many seem to consider The Burning Crusade to be much better than Wrath of the Lich King.
As I said, "MOST"... not everyone is a Flash, Boxer, or Nada who can make big bucks off progaming. I didn't say that you couldn't, but the reality is, you take a big risk on that chance instead of investing your time on another.
I'll respect your opinion on things, and I agree on a few of the comments you've made in your post, but as most things change over time, including gaming, you should know that what SC/BW is to you is the same as SC2 is to newer gamers or younger people.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I hope Korea fights with all they have against Blizzard. I hope for the future of E-Sports that OGN somehow wins this thing.
Also I'd be really interested if the majority of Korean netizens really think that Blizzard should win this. In my opinion there is no doubt that a Blizzard monopoly would be harmful for E-Sports.
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If Blizzard is suing the two TV stations that currently show StarCraft... then how do they plan on getting StarCraft 2 on TV?
Do they think the GSL can be viable long-term on just internet streams?
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I didn't want to participate in this discussion but just reading that thread is so painful and depressing...
Speculations, misinformations, jumps to conclusions... between teenagers who know nothing about law, and startled die-hards who spout absurd statements, I learned absolutely nothing and now my brain hurts.
-Spitting nonsensical and uninformed legal gibberish? check.
-Comparing BW with coca-cola? check.
-Saying blizzard loves money? check. (Who doesn't love money btw)
-Bashing sc2 pointlessly? check.
-Threatening of boycotting blizzard's products even though you enjoy playing and watching BW? check.
Please just think about the reader before posting.
Also I would like to thank the mods who carefully watch the threads related to that topic.
Hopefully this whole mess will be resolved and Bw leagues will be able to go on.
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EPT
