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On October 29 2010 12:04 worosei wrote:
and yes u can see financial data, but you cant audit the American Red Cross if you wanted to.
Auditing is a very intrusive process for a company, and there's pretty much always going to be some sort of excess spending, whether it's choosing a nicer hotel for that company trip, or choosing to eat at a slightly nicer restaurant for 'promotional' purposes or something. Further, no company wants all their investment strategies and financials to be viewed by a company that very well could be a competitor or a company that you have no idea if your information will be kept confidential. I realise Kespa is meant to be non-profit, but they still have to make money to keep alive.
Of course you can audit the Red Cross. Well, to put it more accurately, the government performs annual audits of all tax-exempt entities, including NPOs. That's how their financial information enters the public record in the first place.
Auditing is not a punishment for when things go wrong, it gets a bad rep due to annoying IRS tax audits, but the process itself is an extremely ordinary accounting procedure done regularly by all kinds of businesses and organizations. For NPOs, public audits are a necessity no matter if you are entirely made up of nuns.
Secondly, just putting it out there, but everyone getting cranky that Kespa may be paying the board too much money, the top salary for the American Red Cross was over 1 million USD in 2008 (according to Forbes)... I'd be tentative to be argue along the lines of salary paying and Kespa.
Thirdly, Kespa makes profit. Yes they need to. Noone wants to operate at-cost, especially for something as intangible and infant as an electronic gaming industy. If anything goes amiss for the year, and Kespa doesnt have any contingency options Kespa crumbles, and then esports in korea suffers a huge blow. And when Kespa is a operating in the billions of wons, it's a fairly big operation they're running, all the facilities, pro-gaming teams, advertising, they're not small costs, and they're not running costs you can easily cut and remove. Furthermore, any cost-cutting that they would try to do, would have a detrimental impact on the e-sports scene which goes against the purported goal of Kespa.
While this sounds sweet and dandy, realize that it is all your speculation, backed by nothing besides Kespa's own press release, which is itself full of holes. This is why most NPOs are required to release their financial statements to the public, so this kind of shadiness don't happen.
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On October 29 2010 12:32 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:40 VonLego wrote:On October 28 2010 22:48 Waxangel wrote:On October 28 2010 22:46 Furycrab wrote:
Well we might expect a response from Gretech/Blizzard. We're obviously not getting the whole picture.
This is just personal opinion: but Kespa really hits my nerves when they insist on calling themselves a "non-profit" organization. We live in a world where even Charity organizers pay themselves salaries... =/ Profit just means any leftover income after operating costs, which INCLUDE salaries. Which means as long as you're investing all extra income in growing your company you're a non-profit organization. Does that not sound like double-speak to everyone else? If I started a company and paid myself a salary, then invested the rest of the profit back into the company, would my company be considered non-profit? Not a chance, but apparently that is what kespa is claiming? Interesting subject, just wish the best for all parties involved in the end. Unfortunately if Kespa is truly as in the red as they wish folks to believe (to no apparently fault of their own) they are a poor business and deserve to go under. Floundering business die, that is how it works. Seriously... reinvesting their profits into E-Sports, when E-Sports IS your business doesn't make them non-profit whatsoever. Non-profit means you give AWAY your profits to others, who usually have no direct relation to you. E.g. Unicef gives away profits to people in developing countries. So much carefully worded shady language here. Every company in the world reinvests their profits into their business after paying off salaries, and other expenses.
While most charities are NPOs, NPOs aren't necessarily charities, so this dig is a miss.
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On October 29 2010 11:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 07:35 Mintastic wrote:On October 29 2010 07:11 Waxangel wrote:On October 29 2010 06:26 Redmark wrote:On October 29 2010 06:22 Waxangel wrote:
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike. Does this mean that, as I suspect, there's no point in TL users speculating as to which side is in the right without real knowledge? As has always been the case. I suppose that means that people should stop being spoon fed all this propaganda from these large corporations. But where shall I place all my fanboyism spirit then? put it in the players...not their sponsors.
And by saying that, are you implying that you are going to pay the players?
This whole things getting messier and messier, frankly speaking I don't know which side is correct. However I'm biasing toward players, and by this I'm biasing toward KeSPA as a logical consequences.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50630 Posts
On October 29 2010 13:16 antas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 11:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 29 2010 07:35 Mintastic wrote:On October 29 2010 07:11 Waxangel wrote:On October 29 2010 06:26 Redmark wrote:On October 29 2010 06:22 Waxangel wrote:
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike. Does this mean that, as I suspect, there's no point in TL users speculating as to which side is in the right without real knowledge? As has always been the case. I suppose that means that people should stop being spoon fed all this propaganda from these large corporations. But where shall I place all my fanboyism spirit then? put it in the players...not their sponsors. And by saying that, are you implying that you are going to pay the players? This whole things getting messier and messier, frankly speaking I don't know which side is correct. However I'm biasing toward players, and by this I'm biasing toward KeSPA as a logical consequences.
I meant support the decisions of the players...yes KeSPA are their representatives but they do have their own brains and know that they can talk to the media without KeSPA telling them what to say.
They are human beings(and gods lol) they do have every right to speak out to the public with their own opinions.
like JD...except he was being monitored by KeSPA.
Go wherever the players want to go.Accept whatever they accept.
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On October 29 2010 13:35 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 13:16 antas wrote:On October 29 2010 11:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 29 2010 07:35 Mintastic wrote:On October 29 2010 07:11 Waxangel wrote:On October 29 2010 06:26 Redmark wrote:On October 29 2010 06:22 Waxangel wrote:
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike. Does this mean that, as I suspect, there's no point in TL users speculating as to which side is in the right without real knowledge? As has always been the case. I suppose that means that people should stop being spoon fed all this propaganda from these large corporations. But where shall I place all my fanboyism spirit then? put it in the players...not their sponsors. And by saying that, are you implying that you are going to pay the players? This whole things getting messier and messier, frankly speaking I don't know which side is correct. However I'm biasing toward players, and by this I'm biasing toward KeSPA as a logical consequences. I meant support the decisions of the players...yes KeSPA are they representatives but they do have their own brains and know that they can talk to the media without KeSPA telling them what to say. They are human beings(and gods lol) they do have every right to speak out to the public with their own opinions. like JD...except he was being monitored by KeSPA. Go wherever the players want to go.Accept whatever they accept.
You have a good point there. I really would like to know what the players and coaches stance in this situation. However it's not as easy as it is. As a professional player they really have to respect their contract, except if they are deciding to not extend their contract, like what Nada and Boxer did, but that is a huge decision to make obviously. It's like you are a pro footballer, and somehow you're deciding not to renew your contract since you want to play hockey.
The best situation for the players is obviously like what happened with their sibling WC3 players in team like WeMadeFox. As I understand, players like Moon and Lyn is allowed to keep their contract, which means they still being paid, and they are also allowed to try / learn SC2, although obviously their main hours should be dedicated to WC3. I really wish that something like this could happen with SC1 scene. If player decided to try or not stay in SC1, they are still being supported and so on. Would be better if we have big teams like SK T1 have their SC1 and also SC2 roster in their rank  Or is this the reason why Boxer still not deciding to join new team, maybe he's hoping that SK T1 will embrace SC2? OK, i'm just dreaming here.
Thus being said, I really hope that Blizzard not really enforcing their demands, and somehow reach mutual agreement with KeSPA. As if it goes on as of now, I'm afraid that it will do more damage to the pro SC1 players than good.
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just wondering, where is blizzard suing Kespa? In america or in korea?
because if blizzard and the government dont get on, and if the korean government wants to promote their esports industry and if the korean government can (or has any interest in doing so), would they be able to legislate or ammend IP laws to just make kespa all fine and dandy?
Also i am probably just basing my stuff off kespa's report, Bllizzard is probably very well and justified, i just dont want my proleague to suffer much change and restructuring, and i think Kespa knows this fact very well and it would be in their interests to stall the negoatiations as long as possible in order to maximise their own agenda.
But i do think Kespa is perfectly warranted to refuse to be audited. I wouldnt be surprised to see a lot of nasties inside their accounts, but i still dont think they should be audited, especially if it's information to another company for them to purely use as negotiation material against you
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On October 29 2010 16:13 worosei wrote:
just wondering, where is blizzard suing Kespa? In america or in korea?
because if blizzard and the government dont get on, and if the korean government wants to promote their esports industry and if the korean government can (or has any interest in doing so), would they be able to legislate or ammend IP laws to just make kespa all fine and dandy?
Also i am probably just basing my stuff off kespa's report, Bllizzard is probably very well and justified, i just dont want my proleague to suffer much change and restructuring, and i think Kespa knows this fact very well and it would be in their interests to stall the negoatiations as long as possible in order to maximise their own agenda.
But i do think Kespa is perfectly warranted to refuse to be audited. I wouldnt be surprised to see a lot of nasties inside their accounts, but i still dont think they should be audited, especially if it's information to another company for them to purely use as negotiation material against you
Thats the scary part. What if the Korean government decided to just say "go away" to Blizzard and their IP rights negotiations? What about games like Warcraft 3? Would Blizzard want any of their future products in Korea if the government chooses to ignore IP rights? Would any other videogame company want their product in Korea after they see how Blizzard is being treated?
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On October 29 2010 16:49 stangstang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:13 worosei wrote:
just wondering, where is blizzard suing Kespa? In america or in korea?
because if blizzard and the government dont get on, and if the korean government wants to promote their esports industry and if the korean government can (or has any interest in doing so), would they be able to legislate or ammend IP laws to just make kespa all fine and dandy?
Also i am probably just basing my stuff off kespa's report, Bllizzard is probably very well and justified, i just dont want my proleague to suffer much change and restructuring, and i think Kespa knows this fact very well and it would be in their interests to stall the negoatiations as long as possible in order to maximise their own agenda.
But i do think Kespa is perfectly warranted to refuse to be audited. I wouldnt be surprised to see a lot of nasties inside their accounts, but i still dont think they should be audited, especially if it's information to another company for them to purely use as negotiation material against you
Thats the scary part. What if the Korean government decided to just say "go away" to Blizzard and their IP rights negotiations? What about games like Warcraft 3? Would Blizzard want any of their future products in Korea if the government chooses to ignore IP rights? Would any other videogame company want their product in Korea after they see how Blizzard is being treated?
I feel that you are assuming the stance that blizzard is the victim here. While Kespa aren't saints by any means, remember how ridiculous blizzard's original demands were (they even demanded control of pro gamer contracts, since when does this automatically fall under ip?).
I would go as far s to say any other game company would be thrilled to have the same crazy publicity that Kespa gave to blizzard. On that token yes Kespa should pay licensing fees but lets not forget money wasn't the main issue in negotiations breaking down, it was control that was the issue. Blizzard wanted the ability to tell kespa wen and wen they can't broadcast pro league, basically saying they can't be in a prime time slot.
Warcraft 3 died because they had no kespa, pretty simple.
Alot of people are taking for granted that it was kespa's ability to keep pro full time salary teams afloat that made BW pro league so special. Other scenes die out because prize hunting tournaments are amateur / not sustainable, and will never be as amazing as a real bona fide pro league.
Say what you will about IP rights and such, but to say that Kespa isn't responsible for making BW so amazing is a lie. BW was one hell of a game, but the pro scene in korea is what really showed the way. - and on that note, kespa didn't make a profit, they dont have shareholders as "kespa". They are an association of sponsors. Its amazing that people are still jumping to the conclusion that they're fudging the books and that starcraft tournaments are churning millions for them.
Have we forgotten that we never paid a single cent for pro league streams/vods ? And yet those teams are full salaried players? Where the hell do you think the money comes from?
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Rik:
KeSPA has backed many other games unsuccessfully. So, the criteria of "KeSPA" is a miss. War3 never took off because it wasn't as visceral as BW.
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On October 29 2010 16:55 Rikstah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:49 stangstang wrote:On October 29 2010 16:13 worosei wrote:
just wondering, where is blizzard suing Kespa? In america or in korea?
because if blizzard and the government dont get on, and if the korean government wants to promote their esports industry and if the korean government can (or has any interest in doing so), would they be able to legislate or ammend IP laws to just make kespa all fine and dandy?
Also i am probably just basing my stuff off kespa's report, Bllizzard is probably very well and justified, i just dont want my proleague to suffer much change and restructuring, and i think Kespa knows this fact very well and it would be in their interests to stall the negoatiations as long as possible in order to maximise their own agenda.
But i do think Kespa is perfectly warranted to refuse to be audited. I wouldnt be surprised to see a lot of nasties inside their accounts, but i still dont think they should be audited, especially if it's information to another company for them to purely use as negotiation material against you
Thats the scary part. What if the Korean government decided to just say "go away" to Blizzard and their IP rights negotiations? What about games like Warcraft 3? Would Blizzard want any of their future products in Korea if the government chooses to ignore IP rights? Would any other videogame company want their product in Korea after they see how Blizzard is being treated? I feel that you are assuming the stance that blizzard is the victim here. While Kespa aren't saints by any means, remember how ridiculous blizzard's original demands were (they even demanded control of pro gamer contracts, since when does this automatically fall under ip?). I would go as far s to say any other game company would be thrilled to have the same crazy publicity that Kespa gave to blizzard. On that token yes Kespa should pay licensing fees but lets not forget money wasn't the main issue in negotiations breaking down, it was control that was the issue. Blizzard wanted the ability to tell kespa wen and wen they can't broadcast pro league, basically saying they can't be in a prime time slot. Warcraft 3 died because they had no kespa, pretty simple. Alot of people are taking for granted that it was kespa's ability to keep pro full time salary teams afloat that made BW pro league so special. Other scenes die out because prize hunting tournaments are amateur / not sustainable, and will never be as amazing as a real bona fide pro league. Say what you will about IP rights and such, but to say that Kespa isn't responsible for making BW so amazing is a lie. BW was one hell of a game, but the pro scene in korea is what really showed the way. - and on that note, kespa didn't make a profit, they dont have shareholders as "kespa". They are an association of sponsors. Its amazing that people are still jumping to the conclusion that they're fudging the books and that starcraft tournaments are churning millions for them. Have we forgotten that we never paid a single cent for pro league streams/vods ? And yet those teams are full salaried players? Where the hell do you think the money comes from?
I completely agree with you, but i'm not saying that kespa hasn't helped the growth of broodwar and e-sports. I'm saying if the korean courts decide to side with kespa in the pretense of "this will help e-sports", "helping korean culture grow", the backlash from not just blizzard but other game companies will be huge.
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This is poor mouthing at it's finest. Sure it costs money to operate a company. I have this much money so I can only hold x amount of tournaments this year until I can secure more revenue/sponsors/investors to hold more. I guess tightening the belt in hard times is a hard concept in korea for some organizations. I guess it's better to rely on the crutch of the "korean culture" bullshit to argue into continuing an already admitted unprofitable business model rather than change things up so the fans can continue following the tournaments and players. They are welcome to start a streaming service in the states so they can do like gomtv does and sell season passes/show commercials during breaks ,unlike in korea where everything is restricted if you aren't korean, and maybe take in a few more dollars to cover any gaps.
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I don't get why noone pointed this out yet:
Even though intellectual property experts have advised us that it is excessive to request joint ownership of broadcast materials created through the expertise of TV stations and the performance of players in addition to charging a licensing fee for a tournament, we have accepted a limited form of joint ownership for the sake of promoting e-Sports and to improve negotiations.
I imagine that this is why Blizz/Gretech want a decent amount of money. Kespa wants some form of Joint Ownership. Is this common in a contract for IP rights? I would say no, but I'm not certain. Either way, I imagine this is is what's causing the legality issues, not the money at stake. Anyone agree or enlighten me?
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Please please stop comparing KeSPA with the Red Cross! One is an organisation that promote's and commercializes esports in Korea, the other is a humanitarian movement that tries to prevent and alleviate human suffering.
KeSPA should be compared to organisations as FIFA or NFL, which actually have a similar goal. Ironically these organisations don't have the same IP problems KeSPA has, and FIFA especially is known for abusing the shit out their rights.
Whether Blizzard/Gretech or KeSPA is in the right here I truly can't say, and I would argue non of us can. What I can say is that comparing KeSPA with the Red Cross is just revolting.
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On October 29 2010 18:59 Smog wrote:I don't get why noone pointed this out yet: Show nested quote +Even though intellectual property experts have advised us that it is excessive to request joint ownership of broadcast materials created through the expertise of TV stations and the performance of players in addition to charging a licensing fee for a tournament, we have accepted a limited form of joint ownership for the sake of promoting e-Sports and to improve negotiations. I imagine that this is why Blizz/Gretech want a decent amount of money. Kespa wants some form of Joint Ownership. Is this common in a contract for IP rights? I would say no, but I'm not certain. Either way, I imagine this is is what's causing the legality issues, not the money at stake. Anyone agree or enlighten me?
I think it's the other way round, Blizzard/Gretech wants joint ownership of the broadcast content on top of charging a licencing fee for the tournament. KeSPA is saying here that, even though IP experts told them that that is excessive, they agreed to it.
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Just to everyone saying that "this is no different than someone singing someone elses music", or the c++ comment about "well the owners of the compiler don't own what comes from it" or the comments about other people copying things people made and not having to pay... the difference is:
You can copy/use/whatever most things that have IP rights owned by someone else as long as... You don't make a profit for it/don't charge for what your doing with it/aren't making money for yourself off of it.
Because KeSPA is making money off of it (even if non-profit the employees/progamers are getting paid) and because they are charging MBC/OGN for the other leagues, they can't freely use the IP rights without paying for them themselves.
If they make money off of advertising and selling broadcasting rights that means they need to pay for the right to sell those broadcasting rights and advertising, which is what Bliz/Gretech want.
Now if they completely ran off of the membership fees/donations/etc, things that keep other "non-profits" afloat then they would have a case. But they don't.
It all boils down to: you cannot make money off of someone else's intellectual property without paying them to do so.
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Drathmar,
afaik all the people playing SC:BW on KeSPA own a legal version of the program they are using, so Blizzard got already payed. Also SC:BW is a game, it's purpose is to be played, letting people watch, even charging them to watch, is not letting them use your Legal Copy.
As i see it, Blizzard smells money, smells power, and wants a piece of the cake, i see no real argument for them to charge money just because people start watching awesome players play there game.
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Everyone who is on Blizzard side is a brainwashed fanboy.
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What really sucks about this is the fact that SC2 is largely as popular as it is - and was so hotly expected as it was - because Korea kept the Starcraft spirit alive for an entire decade with BW eSports. ESports exists because of KeSPA - for whatever good or bad you want to say about them, on this point there can be no debate. Blizzard now is riding a wave of commercial eSports that KeSPA is responsible for starting. They have new opportunities for income and influence in the gaming sector exactly because someone before them had the vision and the drive to lay down a foundation for them to recognize as potential and build upon. And for this wonderful gift that Blizzard can now profit from, they repay KeSPA by stomping them in the face.
Why?
Because IP rights are so dodgy to begin with and, furthermore, are so poorly defined. If there was any justice in the world, KeSPA should have IP rights over the entire concept of televised professional eSPORTS. Blizzard could just as justifiably be required to pay KeSPA to use THEIR idea of taking what was otherwise a box-on-shelf video game for basement dwellers and turning it into a media and celebrity sensation. Why is it that KeSPA does not have as much right to the genius idea and implementation of broadcasted eSPORTS as Blizzard has to the genius and implementation of Starcraft?
There is no defensible argument here. There are fundamental problems with the letter of the law regarding the entire concept and framework of what intellectual property is and isn't and the mechanisms by which government power can and can not be used to leverage power in cases of dispute. This isn't about true negotiation and cooperation, justice, or fairness - it's about a badly constructed legal system that Blizzard and Gretech have demonstrated the poor judgement to use mercilessly to their own advantage with zero respect or acknowledgement of the fact that they are now stabbing in the back the very organization whose members, teams, and sponsors have sacrificed and worked towards building the professional eSPORTS institution they now profit from and enjoy.
Just think of how much money Blizzard has made from KeSPA's decade of free advertizing for the Starcraft franchise! How many millions of copies of BW have sold in Korea alone SOLELY because KeSPA has been stoking the starcraft fire with their innovative application of an otherwise home-use video game product. How many millions of copies of SC2 will they have helped Blizzard sell also because of this. And to repay this incredibly mutually beneficial symbiosis what does Blizzard do? They treat KeSPA like a parasite rather than a cooperative, free, and highly profitable asset. This is not good business sense and, ethically, is a deplorable way to treat what was otherwise and could have continued to be a helpful friend.
For the service of a decade of keeping SC1 alive - a game that would otherwise have been buried in the closet along with other legacy dinosaurs of its age as a piece of quaint history - and for creating a heavily primed environment for Blizzard to blast onto the scene with SC2, the very least that Blizzard could do to show that they are respectable and honourable human beings is to just let KeSPA keep their BroodWar scene with no strings attached until it finally dies in peace on its own. Anything less is just disrespectful.
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@jgad: Curious, is Blizzard suing KeSPA due to broadcasting rights of any other games hosted by KeSPA? Or just the broadcasting rights of BW?
Actually, what other games does KeSPA host anyway? Googling "games hosted by kespa" doesn't really help me =[
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Secondly, just putting it out there, but everyone getting cranky that Kespa may be paying the board too much money, the top salary for the American Red Cross was over 1 million USD in 2008 (according to Forbes)... I'd be tentative to be argue along the lines of salary paying and Kespa.
The US red cross has an annual budget of $4.1 American Billion dollars.
Let that sink for a second.
The CEO salary in 2003 was around $400,000.
For the sake of the arguments lets assume their current CEO makes $1 millions. That is 0.025 % of the budget is CEO Salary. I doubt the Kespa's proportion of managerial salaries to income is anywhere near that percent.
The Red Cross is an organization with far more responsibilities, complexity, logistics, everything you can imagine in terms of complexity, compared to Kespa.
They also rely on public support and donations for most of their budget. They also don't have PR problems. When was the last time you heard the Red cross was in any sort of shady/exploitative business or practice?
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EPT
