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On October 28 2010 22:48 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:46 Furycrab wrote:
Well we might expect a response from Gretech/Blizzard. We're obviously not getting the whole picture.
This is just personal opinion: but Kespa really hits my nerves when they insist on calling themselves a "non-profit" organization. We live in a world where even Charity organizers pay themselves salaries... =/ Profit just means any leftover income after operating costs, which INCLUDE salaries.
Which means as long as you're investing all extra income in growing your company you're a non-profit organization. Does that not sound like double-speak to everyone else?
If I started a company and paid myself a salary, then invested the rest of the profit back into the company, would my company be considered non-profit? Not a chance, but apparently that is what kespa is claiming?
Interesting subject, just wish the best for all parties involved in the end.
Unfortunately if Kespa is truly as in the red as they wish folks to believe (to no apparently fault of their own) they are a poor business and deserve to go under. Floundering business die, that is how it works.
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On October 29 2010 01:12 sk` wrote:
"KeSPA is reinvesting all profits made from the sale of broadcasting rights into the operation of leagues."
Notice, they don't specify that the leagues are only BW. Again, the reason Bliz have been after them for a while is because said profits have been redirected to fund development of competitive titles (for use in leagues). KeSPA isn't lying, they are just careful with their words. People want to think KeSPA is doing everything for BW when KeSPA would usurp BW and replace it with one of their own funded projects in a heartbeat; however, so far, they've only funded utter shit.
"The individual leagues are being run at the level where they are barely avoiding a loss."
Such a fantastic example of careful wording... "barely avoiding a loss" doesn't sound like a profit, but actually it is if you apply logic. Makes you wonder why they are so against audits.
Yeah that's pretty much the world of corporate PR. While trying to look like the good guys or the victims in the eyes of the public, all entities are completely selfish and trying to further their own goals.
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I actually don't see Blizzards case here, at all.
People buy there games and kespa is streamign them playing into the world, why should Blizzard get anything?
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On October 29 2010 05:39 Klimpen wrote:
Honestly, if the only snagging point is the money I'm rather confused. Gretech/Blizzard's primary concern should be securing recognition of their IP rights and their role in broadcasting games which use the said rights. Even having a barebones agreement which just acknowledges the IP is worth a ton as a precident between the two companies if it does go to litigation further down the line.
My opinion is that there's probably a snagging point to do with Gretech attepting to dictate timeslots for BW. Prime time viewership is worth more than 700million/year, imo.
There's obviously more going on here than KeSPA is letting up, these kind of press releases are nothing new from KeSPA where they spread their plight that they are the victim, in an effort to get the public to take their side. I've stopped taking their word at face value, and will wait till I see what GRETECH/Blizzard has to say in the process. If the courts say it's in the right of Blizz, than that's that, if not, then that's that, there's really nothing left to do here except spread corporate PR and propaganda.
Oh and Hi Klimpy.
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On October 29 2010 05:57 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
I actually don't see Blizzards case here, at all.
People buy there games and kespa is streamign them playing into the world, why should Blizzard get anything?
If it was just "hi, i buy your game blizzard, now look i show it on youtube", it wouldn't be a problem.
The problem is
"Hi blizzard, I buy your game, now, i go and charge other companies LOTS of money to broadcast YOUR game"
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Are there 10-K forms we could look at? I know that is for American business, but I would guess that there is a similar financial statement form for publicized traded companies. Unless of course KESPA is a privately owned company. Even so, people on Wall Street estimate the earnings/financial statements of privately traded companies all the time.
What KESPA is saying about losing money makes sense. I dont get the sense that E-sports is or has ever been very profitable. Look at GGL and CGS in America. I think KESPA is doing better than that because they are better run, but I still think the market is relatively limited compared to other forms of media, even in Korea.
On the copy-right issue, I dont see how Blizzard can say that they own the broadcast rights to the game. When C++ compliers came out, they owned the right to the code to make the complier, bu t not the right to the results that came from executing the application. That would be ridiculous. Now this case is somewhat different, as the name "Starcraft" is trademarked. However, trademarking a name does not mean that no one can ever say that name; it means that name cannot be used to sell products or in a way that would rival the owner of the trademark. Even though the characters in a book are copy-righted and the story is copy-righted, that does not mean one cannot have a show were you discuss the book and the characters(that sounds fuking boring, but never mind).
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On October 29 2010 05:59 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:57 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
I actually don't see Blizzards case here, at all.
People buy there games and kespa is streamign them playing into the world, why should Blizzard get anything?
If it was just "hi, i buy your game blizzard, now look i show it on youtube", it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is "Hi blizzard, I buy your game, now, i go and charge other companies LOTS of money to broadcast YOUR game"
kaze, u make it sound like KeSPA actually gets to hold on to that money.
for the last 2 yrs, the fees charged to the networks are less than the cost of running the tournaments and paying the players salaries.
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On October 29 2010 05:59 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:57 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:
I actually don't see Blizzards case here, at all.
People buy there games and kespa is streamign them playing into the world, why should Blizzard get anything?
If it was just "hi, i buy your game blizzard, now look i show it on youtube", it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is "Hi blizzard, I buy your game, now, i go and charge other companies LOTS of money to broadcast YOUR game"
So? Nobody is charging anybody LOTS of money to broadcast just SC:BW, because SC:BW is _nothing_ without the players playing it, without the structure to stream it without commentators without all this organization going into turning a game like SC:BW into a e-Sport game like it is in S-Korea.
BMW is not charging me money because i use that car for driving me into work every day.
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Well as far as broadcasting rights is concerned.. I guess Blizz is entitled to ALL the broadcasting rights if the game broadcasted is between computer AIs.. But what happen to the effort, creativity and all these stuffs from players.. E-Sport is far from just a game made and broadcasted as is.. It involves a huge myriad of factors that it is crazy to think that developers who already get paid should still get to hold the scene by the throat imo..
There are lots of probes and SCVs and drones here (i realise i am one as well) making claims like "its Blizz's game, they can get whatever they want" but.. is it really JUST the game we are watching? if i want to watch AI fight i can do so anytime i want on my own computer.. Any map, any matchups
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This is called Hollywood accounting. It will ALWAYS show your company making a lost.
Basically you write fat cheques to yourself(wages etc), sometimes involving another company own by you but register under a different name(bills).
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United States33608 Posts
On October 29 2010 05:40 VonLego wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:48 Waxangel wrote:On October 28 2010 22:46 Furycrab wrote:
Well we might expect a response from Gretech/Blizzard. We're obviously not getting the whole picture.
This is just personal opinion: but Kespa really hits my nerves when they insist on calling themselves a "non-profit" organization. We live in a world where even Charity organizers pay themselves salaries... =/ Profit just means any leftover income after operating costs, which INCLUDE salaries. Which means as long as you're investing all extra income in growing your company you're a non-profit organization. Does that not sound like double-speak to everyone else? If I started a company and paid myself a salary, then invested the rest of the profit back into the company, would my company be considered non-profit? Not a chance, but apparently that is what kespa is claiming? Interesting subject, just wish the best for all parties involved in the end. Unfortunately if Kespa is truly as in the red as they wish folks to believe (to no apparently fault of their own) they are a poor business and deserve to go under. Floundering business die, that is how it works.
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike.
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Sounds like they miss managed their money, and they are at a deficit /me looks @US government. The amount of money asked doesn't sound to bad, considering a player can make as much as 150k-200k a year the organisation that is paying him can not possibly be making less than him, they should stop paying themselves as much as they do then.
You will be surprised how much a sponsor is willing to pay for a bit of good publicity, so KESPA should stop whining and just a get 1 fucking sponsor and get the money needed.
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On October 29 2010 06:22 Waxangel wrote:
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike.
Does this mean that, as I suspect, there's no point in TL users speculating as to which side is in the right without real knowledge?
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United States238 Posts
Interestingly enough, it is known that broadcasting companies pay Namco to have Tekken tournaments in South Korea.
If this whole court deal rules in favor of KeSPA, I would expect all the foreign game companies (that have their game in e-sports) to pull out and not have their games to be used in e-sports. I also foresee potential cries from existing Korean game developers too.
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This statement sounds like what kespa probably told blizzard from the first negotiation years back, thus it makes sense that blizzard asked them to have a watch into their finances as part of what blizzard expected to be the agreement, but kespa did not want that, either some pride thing, or they have something to hide.
Can't see why a non profit organization doesnt disclose finances publicly anyway.
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Ugh more bad news. :/ This is like the never-ending story.
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United States33608 Posts
On October 29 2010 06:26 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:22 Waxangel wrote:
Accounting is a complicated and possibly shady business, for corporations and non-profits alike. Does this mean that, as I suspect, there's no point in TL users speculating as to which side is in the right without real knowledge?
As has always been the case.
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On October 29 2010 05:58 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:39 Klimpen wrote:
Honestly, if the only snagging point is the money I'm rather confused. Gretech/Blizzard's primary concern should be securing recognition of their IP rights and their role in broadcasting games which use the said rights. Even having a barebones agreement which just acknowledges the IP is worth a ton as a precident between the two companies if it does go to litigation further down the line.
My opinion is that there's probably a snagging point to do with Gretech attepting to dictate timeslots for BW. Prime time viewership is worth more than 700million/year, imo. There's obviously more going on here than KeSPA is letting up, these kind of press releases are nothing new from KeSPA where they spread their plight that they are the victim, in an effort to get the public to take their side. I've stopped taking their word at face value, and will wait till I see what GRETECH/Blizzard has to say in the process. If the courts say it's in the right of Blizz, than that's that, if not, then that's that, there's really nothing left to do here except spread corporate PR and propaganda. Oh and Hi Klimpy.
oHi2u2 Kaze.
I have to agree that there's a lot of spin in this press release. I'm honestly surprised by how many people seem to take these statements at face value and don't try to extrapolate motives. I personally think that the view that Blizzard wants to 'kill' bw is naive at best.
Brood War itself is irrelevant to Blizzard's primary goal, imo, which is to secure exclusive broadcast rights for SC2 and secondary goal of expanding those broadcasts. Blizzard has been attempting to secure their IP rights for quite a while now, since KeSPA sold the rights to Proleague 3 years ago, iirc.
Securing a non-competition clause for prime timeslots is the most likely point of contention, imo. If you look at the announces timeslots for Proleague for OGN and MBC, you'll see that they differ quite a bit. OGN has 2pm onwards from what I seem to remember will be the start of GSL3, while MBC is continuing with their 7pm schedule.
Money is ultimately irrelevant, imo. While it is important, in terms of value to the various players, it takes a backseat to the other two. Also, it should be noted that 1 year of Proleague was sold to a third party for 500mil, while KeSPA is calling foul because Proleague AND the three OSL's and MSL's have a combined sale point of 700mil. Seems a bit strange that the deal is unreasonable to me.
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The fact they acknowledged the IP rights to SC1 and a willingness to come to an agreement at a better price is promising. If what Kespa are saying is true then I really hope Gretech make this work. It's impossible to know what is fact and what is fiction though. Oh well.
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Is it really that surprising to people that a non-profit organization doesn't post profits? I would have thought this much would just be common sense...
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