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United States238 Posts
KeSPA has denied the veracity of these stories, claiming negotiations are still in progress.
Related link
Source: http://www.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=201010270134
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In 27th, Gretech, KeSPA, Progamer teams, and broadcasting stations came together for another round of IP rights negotiation, but it has come to an end without any solution. Due to both sides unable to compromise their opinions, it is expected that the lawsuits will come next.
Up till right before the negotiation, both sides successfully agreed on the cost and the division of Proleague and individual leagues. However, 'Involvement of KeSPA in negotiation when negotiating individual leagues' and 'Negotiation for all Blizzard games including StarCraft 1 and 2' had differing opinions that could not be resolved.
There was hope that if Proleague-related agreements were concluded successfully, it would lead to successful future individual league negotiations -- leading to the end of IP rights negotiation. But, due to the negotiation failing, as Blizzard revealed, a lawsuit is to be expected soon.
Blizzard and Gretech will show up together for this lawsuit, and the target of the suit is most likely to be MBCGame. Blizzard already stated they will do so, and they see that MBCGame is not being cooperative or active in the negotiation process.
In regards to IP rights lawsuits, most of the time, the court will accept cease and desist request right away. That can lead to canceling the leagues. But, this time, it involves the viewing rights of many viewers, so it remains to be seen how the courts will decide.
MBCGame Jo Jeong Hyun stated, "We will continue to try our best to negotiate and to create a good outcome, but if they want to bring on a lawsuit, then we must deal with it. They are saying our attitude is a problem, but MBCGame has always been active in the negotiation process and will continue to do so with open mind."
He also stated, "Lawsuits are, in the end, only end up bringing negative impact on both sides. We must be quick to find a middle ground to successfully end the negotiation."
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Edit: Here are some additional information from Yonhap's version.
Source: http://news.naver.com/main/hotissue/read.nhn?mid=hot&sid1=105&gid=321647&cid=303948&iid=328816&oid=001&aid=0004731591&ptype=011
I will give you a brief condensed note of the article:
Blizzard has sent MBCGame and OnGameNet a note requesting them to stop broadcasting. MBCGame refused to follow. So, MBCGame is being targeted for the lawsuit.
KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA.
This is happening because e-sports is a new field where there is no precedent set in law, and the explanation of controversial IP rights differs from person to person.
The core of this controversy is the IP rights, and neighboring rights. The problem is that these two rights are likely to be given to two different entities.
Current law sees the broadcasting rights of copyrighted property to be part of the rights for the original IP holder. This means, if the developer of the game has the IP rights, then the right to broadcast also belongs to the developer.
A law professional commented, "Even if it is a large e-sports scene where a lot of people are involved, the right to broadcast is part of the IP rights, and it belongs to the IP rights holder. There is IP rights violation if broadcasting stations broadcast without negotiation with Blizzard, only because of negotiation with KeSPA."
But, the neighboring rights -- including the rights to performance -- is likely to be seen as a rights belonging to KeSPA. Although this rights to performance generally is about taking music, then performing it, it can be explained that it is a right acknowledged by spreading the news about the private intellectual property through performance.
This means, progamers that are part of KeSPA could have the neighboring rights acknowledged due to unifying a game into the e-sports culture.
An industry insider said, "This dispute can only produce more controversy even if it goes to the courts. It is important to leave a good precedent, as a leading nation of e-sports, through Blizzard and KeSPA coming to an agreement in the negotiation.
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United States10328 Posts
let the games begin... D:
sigh negotiations are too hard
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I don't really care who is right or wrong per sé, I just want pro BW to continue as it is:<
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This kind of lawsuit could go on for ages. Is there any precedent in this area concerning IP rights in South Korea? I was under the impression that KeSPA was a branch or at least a part of the Korean Ministry of Culture. With Mike Morhaime's recent row with a deputy in the Ministry of Culture how will this affect the length of this case?
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i'm rooting for broodwar.
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Thanks Selith for translating. I'm pretty curious what both sides have up their sleeves..
MBC fighting.
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this is not looking good.
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France2061 Posts
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting!
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I really don't know who to believe. What Gretech said they'ld accept and what Kespa said they offered seemed to be in line for a successful negotiation. The failure either means both sides weren't transparent (which is to be expected) or one side was lying.
=/
I hope the Injunction wont stick due to irreparable damages to Kespa/OGN/MBC, but meh.
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Following this is like watching a game of football when you can't see the ball. 
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OGN and Kespa will show up along side MBC and crush the greedy capitalists. For BW and its die hard fans!
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Majority of e-sports fans in Korea don't support Kespa, but I'm sure they would support MBC. It will be interesting to see how opinions divide up there.
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Darn, thought these negotiations wer heading in a positive direction. Does this mean that KeSPA is being sued by two entities now (gretech + blizzard) or will blizzard drop their suit because it is redundant?
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This seems interesting but it really isn't, they will go to court then there will be a undisclosed settlement. BW will continue and you will not know what was given or paid up to keep it going.
BW goes on everyone is happy. 
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Fuck
Why can't blizz just leave bw alone
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On October 28 2010 06:45 Ikonn wrote:
I don't really care who is right or wrong per sé, I just want pro BW to continue as it is:<
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On October 28 2010 06:45 GhoSt[shield] wrote:
This kind of lawsuit could go on for ages. Is there any precedent in this area concerning IP rights in South Korea? I was under the impression that KeSPA was a branch or at least a part of the Korean Ministry of Culture. With Mike Morhaime's recent row with a deputy in the Ministry of Culture how will this affect the length of this case?
KeSPA's member corporations hold far more political influence so assuming that we're dealing with Korean courts, Blizzard and Gretech would have a disadvantage regardless of their arguments or the merit of their case. Disrespecting political figures doesn't really win you any points either...
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Cease and desist order right away? I want my R2 of SPL. Or an end to R1 at least
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Thanks for the translation. At the start, I would have bet any amount you'd care to name that it would never come to court. I still don't think it will, especially considering the tone of MBC, but Blizzard certainly isn't settling quietly.
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The disagreement was for broadcasting rights. Kespa wanted the ability to negotiate broadcasting with different networks, but gretech said that that is their job, not kespas.
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Croatia9479 Posts
On October 28 2010 06:37 Selith wrote:
In regards to IP rights lawsuits, most of the time, the court will accept cease and desist request right away. That can lead to canceling the leagues. But, this time, it involves the viewing rights of many viewers, so it remains to be seen how the courts will decide.
I hope there's some hidden 300 APM A+ ICCup rank gosu in that court!
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On October 28 2010 06:54 snowdrift wrote:
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting!
That might not be the only factor...I have a feeling it's more CJ/Ongamenet/Gretech wanting to take over BW as well as SC2. If Blizzard is fully cooperating with Gretech, there is no way CJ will let Ongamenet's business be damaged.
(While the rest of the sponsors, especially those with consumer-focused businesses like the phone companies, will balk at only having OGN as the sole broadcaster of pro BW.)
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I'm sure I'm not the only one who liked Blizzard better before all this.
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Words can't describe how sad I am if they have to bring this to court...
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Its so frustrating that these huge companies are just arguing over who is going to get more money (IP rights=money). For the sake of the community and continued interest in E-sports... take the hit and just compromise. :-(
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I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line..
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This is so sad.. I just want proleague idk why gretech and blizzard are such stupid fucks =.= (pardon my french). I hope this doesn't end the season or anything :/
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Honestly, who did not see this coming?
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well, ready to boycott blizzard anytime
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On October 28 2010 08:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:37 Selith wrote:
In regards to IP rights lawsuits, most of the time, the court will accept cease and desist request right away. That can lead to canceling the leagues. But, this time, it involves the viewing rights of many viewers, so it remains to be seen how the courts will decide.
I hope there's some hidden 300 APM A+ ICCup rank gosu in that court!
What court is this gonna be? An international one I suppose?
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United States238 Posts
On October 28 2010 08:52 fabiano wrote:
What court is this gonna be? An international one I suppose?
Korean court, but if it doesn't turn out the way Blizzard wants it to be, it might be possible they may even take it to international level.
Don't underestimate Kotick's greed, after all
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FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Damn it, I want my BW and SC2 -_____- minus this stupid drama.
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On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line..
You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right?
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On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right?
Who cares what he says, look at his join date, post count, and where all his posts were made.
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And that true eSports will never ever have any legitimacy as a spectator sport ever.
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Good! Blizzard kill kespa and create sc2 pro leagues thanks
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Why cant weeeeeeeeeeeeeee be friends why cant weeee be frieeeends
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On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right?
No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded.
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Maybe I'm stupid for questioning this, but is etnews a reliable source?
The last topic that said this got spotlighted, and then Waxangel came in and said 'Wow, that's a horrible source. Ignore this' and locked it and unspotlighted it, so you can understand why I'm slightly skeptical because I don't know which Korean sites are reliable or not.
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United States238 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:32 dcemuser wrote:
Maybe I'm stupid for questioning this, but is etnews a reliable source?
The last topic that said this got spotlighted, and then Waxangel came in and said 'Wow, that's a horrible source. Ignore this' and locked it and unspotlighted it, so you can understand why I'm slightly skeptical because I don't know which Korean sites are reliable or not.
This is also on Naver through Digitaltimes and Yonhap
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Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years.
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MBC and Kespa fighting. Really hope that the greed of Activision Blizzard does not destroy the work of a generation.
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They should hire a korean video game company to clone SC1. Like DOTA and HON. It won't be illegal if they jsut copy the mechanics.
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I don't think KeSPA will die if Blizzard wins. If anything they'll be forced to listen to Blizzard's terms and seeing as sponsors still view BW as profitable I see no reason for them to outright stop. It's obvious to anyone with a brain that the organization does have a good reason to exist, it just needs to be watched over a little more.
Here's to hoping whichever way the ruling falls, that it falls quickly so leagues can continue.
On October 28 2010 10:03 nihoh wrote:
They should hire a korean video game company to clone SC1. Like DOTA and HON. It won't be illegal if they jsut copy the mechanics.
Atrox failed hard.
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And we danced, on the brink of an unknown future, to an echo from a vanished past.
![[image loading]](http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/f/f7/SkyProLeagueFinal.jpg/330px-SkyProLeagueFinal.jpg)
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Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual.
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Why didn't Blizzard act on this 10 years ago? heh, go KeSPA, i'm sick of Blizzard's greed.
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Poll: Who do you think will win the case?Blizz (66) 57% MBC (49) 43% 115 total votes Your vote: Who do you think will win the case? (Vote): Blizz
(Vote): MBC
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On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded.
Why would they? eSports is barely profitable as it is and KeSPA assumes all of the financial risk associated with the Starleagues. Do you think they'll seriously continue to invest in it if Blizzard gets to call all the shots? What makes you think they would bend over for Blizzard when they've continously refused to do throughout this entire process? Given their pride, I can almost guarantee that they'll dissolve before allowing themselves to be pushed around by one small foreign company.
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i'm hoping that bw will be able to continue in some capacity if blizz wins the lawsuit. gsl might fill the void before this can happen though
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On October 28 2010 10:23 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. Why would they? eSports is barely profitable as it is and KeSPA assumes all of the financial risk associated with the Starleagues. Do you think they'll seriously continue to invest in it if Blizzard gets to call all the shots? What makes you think they would bend over for Blizzard when they've continously refused to do throughout this entire process? Given their pride, I can almost guarantee that they'll dissolve before allowing them to be pushed around by one small company.
Completely agreed.
If there's one thing we can be certain about, if Kespa loses and loses badly, SCBW is dead. I don't mean "dead" as in it's popularity will fall a bit; if Kespa disappears, then the entire organization crumbles, and it will take far too long to put everything back together again. Proleague will not start in time to keep people's interests. Progamers will be restless waiting for a solution and probably will move. and I honestly think Blizzard honestly doesn't give a crap, because it means that all those SCBW people will transition to a new game... dum dum... SC2?
I wish Blizzard would just leave everything THE WAY IT WAS... I know there's IP rights issues, but why wasn't there before? Why NOW? You've already let Gretech/Gom take SC2... why BOTHER fighting about SCBW???????
I want SCBW to live =(
edit:
On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years.
... are you serious? because CLEARLY the Koreans had nothing to do with the continued popularity of SC1... right? you're talking about the REASON why SC1 thrived over a DECADE and paved the way for SC2. SC2 would have just been a 'good' release with WC3 dynamics. Maybe you don't remember that Blizzard debuted SC2 in KOREA.
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On October 28 2010 09:30 strength wrote:
Good! Blizzard kill kespa and create sc2 pro leagues thanks
Please stop widening the chasm between us BW and SC2 fans. Just stop it, and grow up! You are ridiculous.
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On October 28 2010 06:54 snowdrift wrote:
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting! This. Such bad PR for Blizzard
On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years.
BW was never a cash cow lol. It's basically just advertising and little to no profit plus advertising. Blizzard should just be happy to have their game being played on TV to a large audience. It's great, free advertising for them and they haven't done shit with BW in such a long time. This is about control and reducing competition for the GSL, not IP rights.
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On October 28 2010 08:29 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:54 snowdrift wrote:
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting! That might not be the only factor...I have a feeling it's more CJ/Ongamenet/Gretech wanting to take over BW as well as SC2. If Blizzard is fully cooperating with Gretech, there is no way CJ will let Ongamenet's business be damaged. (While the rest of the sponsors, especially those with consumer-focused businesses like the phone companies, will balk at only having OGN as the sole broadcaster of pro BW.)
This is the only post in the entire thread that knows what its talking about. Everyone else is just blindly taking sides without even knowing WHAT KeSPA is.
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On October 28 2010 10:29 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 10:23 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. Why would they? eSports is barely profitable as it is and KeSPA assumes all of the financial risk associated with the Starleagues. Do you think they'll seriously continue to invest in it if Blizzard gets to call all the shots? What makes you think they would bend over for Blizzard when they've continously refused to do throughout this entire process? Given their pride, I can almost guarantee that they'll dissolve before allowing them to be pushed around by one small company. Completely agreed. If there's one thing we can be certain about, if Kespa loses and loses badly, SCBW is dead. I don't mean "dead" as in it's popularity will fall a bit; if Kespa disappears, then the entire organization crumbles, and it will take far too long to put everything back together again. Proleague will not start in time to keep people's interests. Progamers will be restless waiting for a solution and probably will move. and I honestly think Blizzard honestly doesn't give a crap, because it means that all those SCBW people will transition to a new game... dum dum... SC2? I wish Blizzard would just leave everything THE WAY IT WAS... I know there's IP rights issues, but why wasn't there before? Why NOW? You've already let Gretech/Gom take SC2... why BOTHER fighting about SCBW??????? I want SCBW to live =( edit: Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years. ... are you serious? because CLEARLY the Koreans had nothing to do with the continued popularity of SC1... right? you're talking about the REASON why SC1 thrived over a DECADE and paved the way for SC2. SC2 would have just been a 'good' release with WC3 dynamics. Maybe you don't remember that Blizzard debuted SC2 in KOREA.
I agree. People are of the opinion that Kespa has just been milking a cash cow, I think it would be more accurate to say that Kespa has created the beastly 10 year cash cow. The game wouldn't have thrived for over a decade without them.
You can argue IP rights one way or the other (and lets face it guys - this really isn't clear cut, theres points back and forth, either side trying to say its in black and white is just being emotional or terribly misinformed) but you can't ignore the fact that Kespa and its organisation is what kept BW interesting for so long.
Also I feel that Caelym you are misinformed on the matter because there wasn't any profit to be gained from pro league. Kespa doesn't make any profits at all, they are just the sponsors for the leagues. The money they originally had tried to charge the broadcasting stations wasn't even close to covering the costs of running 12 teams on full time salaries. - Yes one could argue that advertising = profit but thats not how it works when theres no direct correlation between the pro league sponsorship and people buying your products.
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I really don't want this to be the end of BW. Hopefully the lawsuit will move too slow and speed up the negotiations.
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Man how come they can't agree on level terms? I mean even conflicts are resolved quicker than this crap.
If all parties want the best for e-sports and players, than they must agree terms and all sides must make compromises.
I expected Brood War to die out slowly, but this is just absurd, I'd like proleague and individual leagues to continue for at least a year.
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On October 28 2010 10:53 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 06:54 snowdrift wrote:
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting! This. Such bad PR for Blizzard Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years. BW was never a cash cow lol. It's basically just advertising and little to no profit plus advertising. Blizzard should just be happy to have their game being played on TV to a large audience. It's great, free advertising for them and they haven't done shit with BW in such a long time. This is about control and reducing competition for the GSL, not IP rights.
And we all know advertising is a tiny, negligible part of business. That's why Microsoft is spending 1 billion dollars (not an exaggeration) on an ad campaign for Kinect. That's why companies pay huge amounts of money to get 30 seconds during the Super Bowl.
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mbc must win!!! MBCGAME HWAITING!!!
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On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual.
According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players.
That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering.
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i found blizzard to be really disingenuous. they claim they are acting in the best interest of BW fans, which is a lie.
already, we know the foreign pro gaming SC:BW scene is dead. even in SK, many famous SC:BW pro gamers have moved on. Blizzcon even dropped BW as a competition. and blizz claim that they are acting in the best interest of the BW fans? really? are they honestly going to pump more money into BW tournaments?
on the other hand, i know MBC will act in best interest of the fans, because they already managed to get a sponsor who will pay the prize pool.
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On October 28 2010 06:54 snowdrift wrote:
Targeting MBCGame -- the predators are trying to separate the weakest member of the herd from its fellows. It won't work.
KeSPA Fighting!
Exactly, Blizzard is dodging the big Korean corporations, and targets a small TV channel instead.
Then can't even defeat Infinity Ward...
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United States238 Posts
On October 28 2010 11:42 endy wrote:Exactly, Blizzard is dodging the big Korean corporations, and targets a small TV channel instead. Then can't even defeat Infinity Ward...
MBC isn't exactly "small". It's one of the three major public broadcasting station along with KBS and SBS.
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I'm sad it's coming to this
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Does the fact that KeSPA not wanting to compromise (not arguing right or wrong here) mean that they think they will get something better from the lawsuit than the deals current proposed by Blizzard and Gretech?
If not, I'm not quite sure what KeSPA is doing...
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On October 28 2010 11:43 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:42 endy wrote:Exactly, Blizzard is dodging the big Korean corporations, and targets a small TV channel instead. Then can't even defeat Infinity Ward... MBC isn't exactly "small". It's one of the three major public broadcasting station along with KBS and SBS.
I meant small compared to Activision or the big Korean corporations who compose Kespa.
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I think it is 'first or die' for Kespa. So much so it doesn't even matter what the odds are that they lose. They can't compromise because there's so little profit in esports. Even when they are as popular as Starcraft.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded.
i.e their terms of proleague not taking up prime time spots on TV?
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everyone is wrong here they are both greedy but Kespa has to understand the game is still owned by blizzard right...?
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
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So the shit has hit the fan...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On October 28 2010 07:24 Kralic wrote:This seems interesting but it really isn't, they will go to court then there will be a undisclosed settlement. BW will continue and you will not know what was given or paid up to keep it going. BW goes on everyone is happy.
This is easily the best case scenario with great chance of happening.
On October 28 2010 12:54 crazeman wrote:
So the shit has hit the fan...
Some will run and some will stand...
my question is whos gonna stand?MBC?
The court is most likely to favor the fans over the companies(politics,trust me on this one).MBC will win or there will be a successful negotiation a day before doomsday.
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It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
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Aw crap. I had a tiny bit of hope it would work out this time, but I guess not. This is bad D:
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Why is it so hard to negotiate -_-
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On October 28 2010 13:04 SubtleArt wrote:
Why is it so hard to negotiate -_-
both sides are stupid....in the end its we who suffer.
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On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
It's more like Blizzard inventing the piano, the Koreans playing the piano and making a CD out of it, and then Blizzard says, "you can't do that, I invented the piano."
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On October 28 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual. According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players. That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering.
This is a fairly biased opinion and surely you can even see that?
a post in the other direction with out any argument for the other side would read, and quite rightly so
"That's why Blizzard has to win. Otherwise companies will begin to abuse the IP's of companys left right and centre and copyright laws will cease to exist in any useful manner"
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
now I have to feel guilty about watching the GSL....BW I love you but I love SC2 too...please can we have a 3way.
seriously WORK TOGETHER!!!!!
what if gretech buys off MBC?Is that possible?
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On October 28 2010 13:10 Niick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual. According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players. That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering. This is a fairly biased opinion and surely you can even see that? a post in the other direction with out any argument for the other side would read, and quite rightly so "That's why Blizzard has to win. Otherwise companies will begin to abuse the IP's of companys left right and centre and copyright laws will cease to exist in any useful manner"
You miss the point that IP rights should give chance for royalties. Thats what they we're getting and its not enough for Gretech/Bliz, they want to control everything basicly on the sc:bw related e-sports. Also it is not biased comment, its true. Players need to have their own creativy their own, even if the tools are made or invented by someone else. Its really not cool to have someone chance to pull a plug when they want on you when you try to make living out of something (even better if the one who can pull the plug is competing with you on same things).
IP rights should only be royalties. Nothing else.
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On another note, does anyone remember when KeSPa boycotted their teams from playing in gom tv season 4?
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On October 28 2010 13:18 Jienny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 13:10 Niick wrote:On October 28 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual. According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players. That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering. This is a fairly biased opinion and surely you can even see that? a post in the other direction with out any argument for the other side would read, and quite rightly so "That's why Blizzard has to win. Otherwise companies will begin to abuse the IP's of companys left right and centre and copyright laws will cease to exist in any useful manner" You miss the point that IP rights should give chance for royalties. Thats what they we're getting and its not enough for Gretech/Bliz, they want to control everything basicly on the sc:bw related e-sports. Also it is not biased comment, its true. Players need to have their own creativy their own, even if the tools are made or invented by someone else. Its really not cool to have someone chance to pull a plug when they want on you when you try to make living out of something (even better if the one who can pull the plug is competing with you on same things). IP rights should only be royalties. Nothing else.
KeSPA literally refuses to believe Starcraft is a private good, and therefor refuse to respect the IP rights. That's the main issue, and always has been. People just like painting it in a way that theres an evil corporation out to destroy whats good so they can have something to hate. Blizzard doesn't hinder GOMTV in any way for Starcraft 2. That could have easily been KeSPA for BW.
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On October 28 2010 13:39 xBillehx wrote:
KeSPA literally refuses to believe Starcraft is a private good, and therefor refuse to respect the IP rights. That's the main issue, and always has been. People just like painting it in a way that theres an evil corporation out to destroy whats good so they can have something to hate. Blizzard doesn't hinder GOMTV in any way for Starcraft 2. That could have easily been KeSPA for BW.
KeSPA has refused to respect Starcraft IP WHERE?
That has never been the problem. The problem has always been the conditions under which Gretech/Blizzard want to license the IP rights.
MBC/OGN have no reason to let Gretech/Blizzard bully their BW leagues out of the primetime slot because of IP license terms. Nor they have a reason to let Blizzard own all the derivative work (player replays, commentary, etc). Nor they have a reason to have Blizzard audit them on what they do with the BW leagues.
The terms under which Gretech/Blizzard want to license Starcraft IP is just ridiculous.
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On October 28 2010 13:23 TheYellowDart wrote:
On another note, does anyone remember when KeSPa boycotted their teams from playing in gom tv season 4?
Once again it wasn't a kespa boycott. It was only a few of the teams who didn't want their players distracted by an additional league that wasn't even televised, only broadcast over the internet.
Actually awhile before that one of the boycotting teams even had a rule that their players were only allowed to play in one individual league at a time - and were not allowed to participate in both OSL and MSL, but that rule was withdrawn.
If it was truly a Kespa boycott, there would have been no players for season 3.
Also, Kespa wasn't selling the rights to broadcast Starcraft itself, but the Proleague, which they operate.
And given that neither side has shown any sign of budging on their negotiation line, I don't think it's likely that a settlement will occur.
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United States238 Posts
I've updated the OP with additional information from Yonhap. It deals with what is the problem in this dispute.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
I still didn't get the part about neighboring rights....Can anyone explain that to me and what sort of ground that KeSPA stands on.
Currently only MBC is being sued right?...not OGN?
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On October 28 2010 14:07 Selith wrote:
I've updated the OP with additional information from Yonhap. It deals with what is the problem in this dispute.
Thank you for more translations. It's highly appreciated and I hope you can continue to update us non Korean speakers throughout the issue.
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United States238 Posts
On October 28 2010 14:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I still didn't get the part about neighboring rights....Can anyone explain that to me?
Wiki to the rescue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighboring_rights
But the short of it is, it's a special rights given to performers who are taking music or something that is copyrighted by someone else, then using that to perform (such as singing).
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imho here is a key point: "Current law sees the broadcasting rights of copyrighted property to be part of the rights for the original IP holder. This means, if the developer of the game has the IP rights, then the right to broadcast also belongs to the developer.".... Let's hope this ends well... Lets hope it does...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On October 28 2010 14:21 MrHeckOne wrote:
imho here is a key point: "Current law sees the broadcasting rights of copyrighted property to be part of the rights for the original IP holder. This means, if the developer of the game has the IP rights, then the right to broadcast also belongs to the developer.".... Let's hope this ends well... Lets hope it does...
E-sports law is a really new thing and there are a lot of laws and regulation that needs to be passed for them separately.For all I know with the current state of the law regarding E-Sports it can be anyone's game.
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Pretty sad but they really need to get this sorted so court is probably the best way. And i agree that i dont think it will get to dramatic, they will meet in court, see where the winds are blowing and whoever is gonna loose will cut a deal behind closed doors.
And i can really see the PoV for both parties here, broadcasting rights are a pretty big deal.
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Anything that is gonna make BW alive is fine with me, anything.
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On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW.
Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA.
Damn straight.
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Next step is for KeSPA and MBCGame to get a temporary hold on the IP rights so they can continue their league while the lawsuit pans out - this could take months/years and waiting that long would be catastrophic for KeSPA.
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Just hurry up and sue already.
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Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing.
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On October 28 2010 12:03 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. i.e their terms of proleague not taking up prime time spots on TV?
That's probably one of the consequences yes. If you're authoring a bookstore to sell your books you would want them to put the newer books at better spots in the bookstore do you?
To be honest things could be worse if KeSPA wins outright. If game developers have absolutely no IP right when their games being broadcast on TV, no game company will ever want to invest any money and support to make their games become eSport games.
The whole idea of creating Starcraft 2 is to make it a successful esport, and all the money and time Blizzard have spent so far in polishing the game are based on the fundamental assumption that their IP right is to be respected.
As a fan of esports, I certainly don't want any harm to SCBW proscene. But I also don't want Blizzard to completely lose this lawsuit either, as that would be equally disastrous to the future of esports. Hell, if they lose, even Gretech can turn their back and say "hey, if KeSPA can broadcast SC1 games without paying you a dime, why would we have to pay you this much to broadcast Starcraft 2?"
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I think it is a good choice from both parties to abandon the negotiations and take the matter to the respective courts. It is pretty clear that there are multiple sides in the conflict, both with their respective positions and it is also clear that the interpretation of the law and how it should be applied in this case is different for both. That is exactly why there are courts: To resolve such disputes.
It is also really one-sided to think that there is one "good" side and one "bad" side in the negotiations. Depending on who you ask, either Blizzard/Gretech is the devil or KeSPA/OGN/MBC. There are always multiple facets, especially if you don't know everything. It is impossible for us here to know exactly what the parties are thinking, planning and what is happening during the negotiations.
Senseless speculation, fearmongering and hatred doesn't help anyone. Not the community nor the e-sports scene. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't voice your opinion on the matter. But it would be much more helpful if comments were not just pure ranting or hate-spewing. Yes, I understand that you are angry about Party X of your choice, because of reason Y. This doesn't mean that other people and other members of the community can have a different opinion and it shouldn't mean that you should attack them or that you should join a thread just to say, repeatedly, "X sucks, everyone who disagrees is stupid".
The polarizing effect of the IP/negotiation-threads has also led to a hostile atmosphere between SC:BW and SC2. For me it feels that people like me, who love watching BW, but also like watching SC2, have to tread lightly if we don't want to be labeled as "SC2 noobs" by the one crowd and "stupid BW-diehards" by the other side.
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On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight.
Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye.
Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
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On October 28 2010 06:37 Selith wrote:
Blizzard has sent MBCGame and OnGameNet a note requesting them to stop broadcasting. MBCGame refused to follow. So, MBCGame is being targeted for the lawsuit.
So does this mean OGN agreed to stop broadcasting OSL?
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Blizzard are dicks for this. Copyright in general is stupid, this is just over the top. The game is so frickin old and Blizzard wouldn't be making any money off it anyway so what right do they really have. What if the guy who invented the ball demanded cash every time someone played a game involving a ball? It's stupid. The proscene made SC what it is, if anything, blizzard should be paying them.
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On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded.
This is a very unlikely scenario. If Blizzard was only interested in money this would be over by now, it would've been over months ago. They want to move BW out of the way for SC2.
On October 28 2010 08:51 saltywet wrote:
well, ready to boycott blizzard anytime
Way ahead of you. I stopped playing SC2 over this and don't expect I'll go back to it even if this case gets resolved or KeSPA/MBCGame wins the lawsuit.
Let's hope they do though, how anyone who calls themselves a fan of not just StarCraft but of eSports and video games in general could be on Blizzard's side is beyond me. Frankly, the developer shouldn't be involved in broadcasting or organizing eSports. Other developers do not demand revenue from prize money or broadcasting of other games, why Blizzard feels entitled to this is beyond me. If Blizzard wins this case they will single handedly destroy all credibility of eSports outside of South Korea and possibly even in South Korea as well. Or at least, credibility of an eSports scene for Blizzard games.
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight. Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye. Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
Agree 100%.
As for boycotting Blizzard over this, ehhh not there yet.
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On October 28 2010 15:42 ricerocket wrote:
Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing.
Now i am a BW fan and i surely want BW to continue, that likely requires Kespa to win. And it would crush my fanboy heart if some game developers decide to overstep their boundary (of the game-developing industry) to jump in and mess with my favourite field (e-Sport).
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight. Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye. Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
Your example doesn't work though. Professional StarCraft is much closer to taking a track from a music video or CD and remixing it and currently under U.S. law remixing and IP rights is a finicky issue at best. Blizzard may not have any legal right in America or South Korea to make the demands they're making.
This case has no precedence and no one really knows how it will go. I'd give an advantage to KeSPA and MBCGame as this will be taking place in Korean courts but wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard/Gretech ends up winning a lawsuit. Comparisons to CDs, sports, or other copyrighted material aren't very fair as this case is incredibly unique and will set a precedent for eSports for decades to come.
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Its funny how people side with whichever game they like better. If Kespa and Blizzard were switched places its guaranteed Kespa would be doing the same thing since they are both (somewhat greedy) businesses.
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On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:42 ricerocket wrote:
Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing. Now i am a BW fan and i surely want BW to continue, that likely requires Kespa to win. And it would crush my fanboy heart if some game developers decide to overstep their boundary (of the game-developing industry) to jump in and mess with my favourite field (e-Sport). However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all.. So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
Totally agree with this one.
Yes, obviously if Blizzard only want the money (royalty), then this case will be over years ago, especially since KeSPA also agreed to pay some money to Blizzard.
And true, that is the thing that I'm afraid of, when you spending like 8hrs per day, 5 days a week minimal to make a living out of it, then changing scene whenever the developers wants it definitely a nightmare for the players. Pro-scene will definitely hurt much from it, unless you are a super skilled player who can learn / change game in a short time, then semi-pro is the best logical possibilities.
as a side note: I do love SC BW but it doesn't make me a die hard fans that will side blindly to whichever organizations who's running SC BW. However I really amazed with pro-scene BW, which really ahead in pro-gaming scene compare to other games IMHO. This made me feel really sad if the pro-scene dies.
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On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
More like the right to broadcast Starleague and other competitions by their players which belongs to them not Blizzard...
Any way its all shady since both sides have their IP rights and deciding which one of them is right will be tough for the court.
I see a quick way out for Blizzard out of it (but the fans will flame them hard).
They should just release a small "balancing" patch and include in it a new TOS:
"...All torunaments require a blizzard aprovall...
...Participating in a non-sanction tournament will result in banning the cd-key..."
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good stuff, SC2 is going to be smooth soon or later i guess 
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:
Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds.
Oh, sure. All those breathtaking progames happened just like this, you turned on the computers and they played by themselves. Somehow every time they played the scenarios're completely different. Like you bought a song and you couldn't guess whether it would be The Beatles or Jon Bon Jovi each time it played.
Can't believe there're such stupid analogues by some people. SCBW is a software, a tool. Most of the creative work are done by gamers and organizers. The issue should be settled in favor of the people who make SCBW an esport success. Afaik, Blizzard contributes little to this except for patches like any software vender should provide.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
This therad is making me sick....I'm just gonna watch the MSL qualifiers.
BW will last regardless of what happens in court.Blizzard knows they can't stop it.
+ Show Spoiler += Off-Topic]this may be a little off topic but why do you guys boycott SC2?(or any blizzard game other than BW)
If its because you don't like it....then I understand.But stuff like "blizz is killing BW we hate you, I'mma never gonna buy shit from you again,especially sc2" is just stupid.you don't like it don't buy it,if you like it then just buy it(if you can).You are not betraying BW by buying SC2 and you are not helping blizzard use your money to kill BW.the guys in the SC2 team have worked their butts off to make a good game(yeah its a few fixes here and there and then the rest is up to us)and these guys have done nothing wrong,don't tarnish someones hard work because his bosses are using it in the wrong way.
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I can see both sides of the argument but in the end no matter who is right the real loser here is Broodwar and its community of players and fans, it's very sad.
The only possible way that this could have a happy ending is if Blizzard or Gretech actually set up their own Broodwar tournaments and team league and invite the same players and teams to participate, but it's unlikely that's going to happen with their focus on Sc2.
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On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years.
Yeah eSports, such a cashcow and hugely successful business venture for the non-profit KeSPA and MBC who hardly makes a profit at all.
I'll make a longer post about this in the future but i'm glad this is happening, maybe we can finally get eSports recognized as a public interest and a corporate interest to be satisfied.
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It's interesting to see diehard BWer reactions to this... since most view it as Blizzard trying to off BW. Folks, Blizzard may like money, a whole bunch, but they've never proven to be stupid. They're smart enough to know a serious attempt to murder BW would make a martyr of the situation.
I've said this in other threads, it is mostly about how KeSPA uses profits gained from BW broadcasts that bother Blizzard. Thus far, KeSPA has liberally abused the IP to fund domestic development. It's a double slap in the face.
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On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
Two things:
1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet.
2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:46 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:03 Plexa wrote:On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. i.e their terms of proleague not taking up prime time spots on TV? That's probably one of the consequences yes. If you're authoring a bookstore to sell your books you would want them to put the newer books at better spots in the bookstore do you? To be honest things could be worse if KeSPA wins outright. If game developers have absolutely no IP right when their games being broadcast on TV, no game company will ever want to invest any money and support to make their games become eSport games. The whole idea of creating Starcraft 2 is to make it a successful esport, and all the money and time Blizzard have spent so far in polishing the game are based on the fundamental assumption that their IP right is to be respected. As a fan of esports, I certainly don't want any harm to SCBW proscene. But I also don't want Blizzard to completely lose this lawsuit either, as that would be equally disastrous to the future of esports. Hell, if they lose, even Gretech can turn their back and say "hey, if KeSPA can broadcast SC1 games without paying you a dime, why would we have to pay you this much to broadcast Starcraft 2?"
Sorry, didn't GOMTV pay Blizzard a negligible amount of money? Like 1 won? And would it be really that bad if game developers only get money from the games they sell and royalties for broadcasts? It's almost like their games already get loads of advertisement or something.
If the precedent is that popular games will be broadcasted on TV and their IP-holder gets an amount of money that is proportionate to the profits of the scene, I would call that a good thing. Even if their IP isn't "respected" like when all the players and their input automatically belong to the IP holder.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 28 2010 17:55 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties.. Two things: 1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet. 2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
Believe me i was a huge fan of Blizzard until recently.. I rebought Diablo Battle Chest, Starcraft Battle Chest, Warcraft 3 Battle Chest in the past few years only because i misplaced my original copies.. They deserve credit as a successful game developer.. I will continue to purchase their games in the future if they will prove to be great games.. I did not purchase Sc2. However it is no coincidence that fans like me are starting to turn against them..
1/ In RTS, we see a decline in game quality starting with
-Starcraft as quite possibly the best RTS ever, with perfect balance (in more ways than one) in gameplay (i wont elaborate as i assume most people here are familiar)..
-Warcraft 3 was great, not matching SC:BW in spectating value, but a great game in its own rights, with many innovations like unique Hero units, with a miriad of skills, gaining levels and empowering themselves with different items.. Additional features like Aura, passive skills, attack-type vs armor-type countering, and an RPG-ish campaign are also great innovations..
-Then we have SC2. Outside the slightly different campaign system, where u get research points instead of items to power up your army and a few very minor "choices" which didnt really affect the gameplay or story much.. There was nothing else..
Nevermind the complete lack of innovation, some of the key gameplay element arent present either.
1/ LAN.. i cant stress enough how this is absolutely necessary for high level gameplay
2/ Lack of balance (Terran was too strong before, seemingly Zerg is too strong now).. This is looking more and more like WC3 where each race just took turn (outside of Undead) to be overpowered with each updates.
3/ Little things in the gameplay mechanics: Highground advantage (unit have a chance to miss their attack from lower ground).. This would add nicely to strategic element of gameplay.. It was there for BW, and for WC3, its not there in SC2.
I wont go into details with WoW.. Suffice to say it werent ever truly balanced either (Arcane Mage from 3.2 - 3.3.2, FuryWarr most of the time, Rogue in 3.3 for DPS.. Holydin for 3.3.3 as Healer?).. If you would actually take a look at Guild War, personally i find it a much more quality MMORPG.. But Blizz's fanbase is huge, and popularity along makes up a huge part of an MMORPG's success (good MMORPG with few people playing is trash, especially when you need people to do missions with n stuffs)..
This point explains why my trust in Blizz's SC2 is low.. I feel (with good reasons) that their fluke in SC:BW wont happen again.. And until they can prove me otherwise, i see no reason to trust their new toy to "take e-Sports to new heights"
2/ Theres too many "if" in that statement and as stated before i dont see any reasons why i would give Blizz the benefit of the doubt, and support them over someone who already created and maintained a successful model over 10 years.. All the more so when in their new EULA, they reserve all rights to kill off SC2 whenever they want. Pro-gaming can never be a stable job if some random guy can kill off the whole industry at a whim (and likely to do it every few years).
Imo, the future looks bleak for any industry if one guy (firm) is capable of killing it off with the snap of a finger, much more so if that guy is almost guaranteed to do it (everytime their new game come out)
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 17:55 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties.. Two things: 1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet. 2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
1. Trust is proportionate to the amount of risk involved. There is not much room to fuck this up, and some of their statements like the GSL philosophy leave a lot of fear in the hearts of BW fans. Also, because Reagan turned from succesful actor to succesful politician does not mean he could also lead a third world company in a field he is not familiar with. Expecting such a thing is exactly what the stuff of fanboyism is: Unreasonable expectations based on not much of anything. Like Bisu winning an OSL.
2. If the game developers overdo balancing and making games, it might lead to the exact same thing as now. A formerly successful game being possibly sacrificed "due to allocation of resources" in order to promote a game that shows a degree of promise, yet isn't universally accepted yet. If the control levers are in the hands of companies, this might already drive other companies who'd love to invest in such a sport away because they have no way of influencing the turn of events. That is a huge risk, and while the game developer might feel slightly better at ease, I really don't think the other investors will. Especially if we're talking long term investments such as teams.
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Successful model for over 10 years? Go read their press release, KeSPA is not a non-profit by choice, it's that they've yet to make enough investment to turn a profit... FOR TEN YEARS! I think Blizz should kill them off just for being such a failed business before ruining revenue potential in eSport for everybody else.
Oh, plenty of basic software EULAs say the creator has the right to pull the plug. The list includes Windows, iOS, and just about all platform software you can think of. Now do I need to remind you how big of an industry computer programing is, in which all content is based on those platform softwares?
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On October 28 2010 18:50 ricerocket wrote:
Successful model for over 10 years? Go read their press release, KeSPA is not a non-profit by choice, it's that they've yet to make enough investment to turn a profit... FOR TEN YEARS! I think Blizz should kill them off just for being such a failed business before ruining revenue potential in eSport for everybody else.
The two things are not related. KeSPA is a non-profit organization ("an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals"). The fact that it can barely turn a profit with BW doesn't conflict with that. The more money it can draw from its e-sport titles, the more it can put back into them, like additional leagues/events/ceremonies/etc, or the ability to invest in a new title to support (which is a very costly and risky event since if the game is a dud or the sponsors pull out you lose all the infrastructure you built for it).
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 18:50 ricerocket wrote:
Successful model for over 10 years? Go read their press release, KeSPA is not a non-profit by choice, it's that they've yet to make enough investment to turn a profit... FOR TEN YEARS! I think Blizz should kill them off just for being such a failed business before ruining revenue potential in eSport for everybody else.
Oh, plenty of basic software EULAs say the creator has the right to pull the plug. The list includes Windows, iOS, and just about all platform software you can think of. Now do I need to remind you how big of an industry computer programing is, in which all content is based on those platform softwares?
They don't exactly have a source for profit other than the revenues they get from broadcasting. Which in turn gets their money from advertisements that are run between the games. Unless advertising costs rise steeply, I don't think expectations of direct profit (as opposed to indirect PR from sponsoring teams) can even be met. This goes double if the game isn't even being broadcasted on TV.
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well at least blizzard is smart enough to not go to court against KeSPA, cause they got no money. blizz is suing MBC.
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Been thinking a bit about the whole mess with broadcasting rights and neighboring rights regarding E-sports, and Starcraft in particular.
If we look beyond the current situation and the history of BW, what would be a reasonable setup for this? Is it reasonable for the developer of a game to have broadcasting rights for that game?
I am trying to figure out any similar situation in any other field and is pretty much drawing a blank, one could think that music and covers and such might be comparable but i am not certain. In music you can not legally prevent anyone from making a cover of your song, you can however demand royalties for it. Would something similar be the right path for e-sports?
Meaning that if i wanted to start up a website streaming games from SC2, BW and lets add CS aswell to make it as wide as possible. I then host tournaments in each game, with some prizemoney, and charge members to watch theese games, something like a 5$ / month fee. Is it reasonable that if i wanted to do this the developers of said games could not forbid me as long as i agree to pay them royalties, preferably standardized like in music.
Would it be reasonable for the IP-holder of counterstrike to be able to say "No", for whatever reason?
Another comparison would be Magic: The Gathering, obviously Wizard owns the IP rights to MtG but afaik there is nothing stopping me from opening shop and hosting an MtG tournament, filming it and broadcasting it?
Now i am a "SC2-fanboy" if i would have to pick sides. I joined TL.net because of SC2, i have never watched BW and had no idea who Boxer/Flash/etc was before i joined here. I did play Bw quite a bit casually when it was released. Up to now i have been firmly on Blizz/gretech side in this, i think it is a given that they have IP rights and that right sould be protected and respected. But IP rights are NOT the same as broadcasting rights, and i honestly dont think they should have broadcasting rights because i think one party should never have broadcasting rights for an entire sports and that is what we want this to be.
It would be absurd if one organisation had broadcasting rights for football, they can have broadcasting rights for a specefic fottball league, but not the entire game. Now it is a lot easier since no one have created fotball or owns the IP for fotball, but if we want E-sports to actually grow into something similar to mainstream sports i think it would be a far bigger setback if Blizzard/Gretech wins this.
IP rights and royalties yes this is obvious, broadcasting rights no.
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Thats what you get for selling broadcasting rights you don't own.
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Can't really compare SC to any real physical contact sport since no one has a patent on the equipment involved in playing and using the sport, I believe. Whereas e-sport games are dependent on the programming made by the developers. Note that not all game developers have IP rights for their games though. IE: Halo series.
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On October 28 2010 21:20 Pleiades wrote:
Can't really compare SC to any real physical contact sport since no one has a patent on the equipment involved in playing and using the sport, I believe. Whereas e-sport games are dependent on the programming made by the developers. Note that not all game developers have IP rights for their games though. IE: Halo series.
That's why its unprecedented but doesn't mean it won't be ruled in MBC/KeSPA's favour, as the whole page of posts happens to just keep ignoring facts such as MBC already paid a Blizzard partner for broadcasting rights many years ago. Only now they see it's actually successful and potentially they could make a profit did they suddenly change their opinion on IP rights. Like i keep saying to everywhere, where were Blizzard when there's 100k people watching PL finals and 6 million copies of BW being sold due to the hype? Are they going to claim in the court they did not know this, or are they just going to go ahead and admit they were completely fine with KeSPA's actions until it possibly conflicted with their new game. To me it doesn't sound like a very strong case.
If eSports is to be a SPORT and not just a tool for developer profit this there is only one way this case must go or we will forever be stuck in the cycle of constant titles coming and going and no sustainable leagues. There's so little money in such a niche scene already there isn't room for Blizzard to attempt to siphon even MORE out of it in the name of 'IP Rights'. The publicity should be enough, wasn't it enough to make BW the most successful RTS ever? So why get more greedy now?
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On October 28 2010 21:49 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 21:20 Pleiades wrote:
Can't really compare SC to any real physical contact sport since no one has a patent on the equipment involved in playing and using the sport, I believe. Whereas e-sport games are dependent on the programming made by the developers. Note that not all game developers have IP rights for their games though. IE: Halo series. That's why its unprecedented but doesn't mean it won't be ruled in MBC/KeSPA's favour, as the whole page of posts happens to just keep ignoring facts such as MBC already paid a Blizzard partner for broadcasting rights many years ago. Only now they see it's actually successful and potentially they could make a profit did they suddenly change their opinion on IP rights. Like i keep saying to everywhere, where were Blizzard when there's 100k people watching PL finals and 6 million copies of BW being sold due to the hype? Are they going to claim in the court they did not know this, or are they just going to go ahead and admit they were completely fine with KeSPA's actions until it possibly conflicted with their new game. To me it doesn't sound like a very strong case.
This argument is very weak imo, there could be a million legitimate reasons for them not to get involvled. Even a reason such as "Back then we where not interested in e-sports, now we are." pretty much nullifies the whole argument since IP-rights is not something that is really up for debate, the created it they have the IP-rights. Also they might just say that with the merge with Activision the companys standpoint changed. Bear in mind this will most likely not only decide this case but might set a precedent for future cases, so i very much doubt the courts will take that into account.
Where Kespa is fighting them is over broadcasting rights, which Blizzard claims comes with the IP-rights, Kespa acknowledges Blizzard's IP-rights but does not acknowledge that the broadcasting rights are included in the the IP-rights.
That is, unless I need a new class in reading comprehension.
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They can't say back then they were not interested in eSports as they were happy inviting KeSPA players to Blizzcon 2005 iirc?. And how could that ever be a viable excuse in court anyway, it's not as if the proscene was a big secret. BW eSports is WHY it's so well known, even though it was a great game for it's time. You ask an average gamer and one of the first things they will say 'Isn't it like a sport in Korea?', so Blizzard cannot just simply claim ignorance and that they didn't care.
The IP rights issue is just going to be needed to be decided if it's in the interest to allow complete control of a game to a game developer if its to be a sport. That is not in the Korean publics interest and not really in anyones interest. At the end of the day you made a videogame for people to play, a game which can be played competitively. If you were interested in actually helping run a competitive league in any way at all then you should have been there from the start, not turn up many years later and decide now you have a problem with it. They might own the rights to the game but do the own the rights to the games actually played with it? The replays? Broadcasts? I don't think so at all. I think they should stick out of it completely and get on with actually fixing SC2 instead of alienating a whole fanbase for your previous game.
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this whole thing is getting to a point where it no longer matters who is right or wrong, whoever can pump more money into the law suit will end up winning.
Its a bit like the US People vs Tobacco Companies, the tobacco companies put in literally 20-30 more money in to the law suits than the government, their legal team could fill a small sports stadium and the government has like 10 lawyers working on it...... it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, its never going to work out that bad for the tobacco companies because they put so much more money in to it.
I hope this isn't what happens in this case, either blizz or kespa funneling in more money and winning purely based upon that fact... because this is about setting a precedent for all future esports....
Which ever side you are on, i think we can all agree that getting the correct decision (whatever it is) is preferrable to getting the wrong one. As the wrong decision could ruin esports one way or another.
If blizz is right, it could mean a new era for esports with direct backing from the publishers themselves, this could be a great thing for all esports. Imagine if gaming companies all put their weight behind esports and that influence takes things like MLG global, we get gaming associations all over the world and esports become more mainstream. If they are wrong, then they could kill esports by making it so that getting them on real TV becomes very hard and not profitable.
If Kespa is right, and anyone should be allowed to broadcast esports without the permission of the publisher, it could lead to an explosion of esports on TV in places other than korea. It could lead to pro gaming associations like kespa all over the world, paying salaries to pro gamers etc. If they are wrong, without the backing of the publishers, without the publishers actively balancing the game for esports purposes, the esports aren't fun to watch or play.... esports die.
You see how whichever side you are on, both outcomes can be good or bad for esports, we simply do not know. Which is why smarter people than us will be fighting the court case, and hopefully the judge is up to the task!
my .02
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On October 29 2010 01:39 emythrel wrote:
Its a bit like the US People vs Tobacco Companies, the tobacco companies put in literally 20-30 more money in to the law suits than the government, their legal team could fill a small sports stadium and the government has like 10 lawyers working on it...... it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, its never going to work out that bad for the tobacco companies because they put so much more money in to it.
What? The tobacco companies lose cases all the time. Just last year they lost a case in which they have to rename any cigarette product called Light, Ultra Light, Medium, Mild, etc. because the courts found it to be deceptive. That's why when you buy cigarettes (in America at least) they're called Gold, Blue, Silver, or something similar now. Not to mention that the tobacco companies have taxes raised on their product way more than anything else.
Maybe I misread what you said, but the cigarette companies lose court cases quite often to the government. When individuals take them to court because they have cancer or something then yeah, the cigarette companies will win but that's because you have to be an idiot to suit a cigarette company because you have lung cancer. It's like people who try to suit McDonald's because they're overweight.
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I don't want KeSPA anywhere near SC2. We don't need an organization like that to make esports less fun.
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On October 29 2010 05:00 Archduke wrote:
I don't want KeSPA anywhere near SC2. We don't need an organization like that to make esports less fun.
Lol, on what basis are you making this statement? Kespa already expressed that they have no plans to get involved in SC2.. So i take it you are just making this statement to somehow try to look down on the other side because they are fighting with your favourite money-grubbing Blizz?
Not that Starcrap II will last for very long either, mind.. Warcraft 3 did not despite being much better, by the time this hype dies down (soon enough) you will see what will be left of SC2.. Even if Kespa had plans to do it (before they had their catfight w Blizz), looking at it now its not really worth it imo.
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Kespa invented e-sport along progammers they should have ip rights on all e-sport event in the world then
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Blizzard reminds me of an angry child, just wanting everything his way, or no way at all...
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EPT
