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On October 28 2010 13:10 Niick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual. According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players. That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering. This is a fairly biased opinion and surely you can even see that? a post in the other direction with out any argument for the other side would read, and quite rightly so "That's why Blizzard has to win. Otherwise companies will begin to abuse the IP's of companys left right and centre and copyright laws will cease to exist in any useful manner"
You miss the point that IP rights should give chance for royalties. Thats what they we're getting and its not enough for Gretech/Bliz, they want to control everything basicly on the sc:bw related e-sports. Also it is not biased comment, its true. Players need to have their own creativy their own, even if the tools are made or invented by someone else. Its really not cool to have someone chance to pull a plug when they want on you when you try to make living out of something (even better if the one who can pull the plug is competing with you on same things). 
IP rights should only be royalties. Nothing else.
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On another note, does anyone remember when KeSPa boycotted their teams from playing in gom tv season 4?
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On October 28 2010 13:18 Jienny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 13:10 Niick wrote:On October 28 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:On October 28 2010 10:09 Prophecy3 wrote:
Where's the IP rights of the Pros exactly? It's THEIR skill that allowed Blizzard to even talk about eSports. When all is said and done, it will probably be the players and the fans who lose out most. As usual. According to Blizzard, progamers have no right. That's the point. That's why they think Kespa is selling their IP rights to OGN/MBC and not a license to have the players to pay the players. That's why Blizzard has to lose. Otherwise players are automatically under contract of the devs of the game they play and they can't sell themselves to a sponsor for salary/expense covering. This is a fairly biased opinion and surely you can even see that? a post in the other direction with out any argument for the other side would read, and quite rightly so "That's why Blizzard has to win. Otherwise companies will begin to abuse the IP's of companys left right and centre and copyright laws will cease to exist in any useful manner" You miss the point that IP rights should give chance for royalties. Thats what they we're getting and its not enough for Gretech/Bliz, they want to control everything basicly on the sc:bw related e-sports. Also it is not biased comment, its true. Players need to have their own creativy their own, even if the tools are made or invented by someone else. Its really not cool to have someone chance to pull a plug when they want on you when you try to make living out of something (even better if the one who can pull the plug is competing with you on same things). IP rights should only be royalties. Nothing else.
KeSPA literally refuses to believe Starcraft is a private good, and therefor refuse to respect the IP rights. That's the main issue, and always has been. People just like painting it in a way that theres an evil corporation out to destroy whats good so they can have something to hate. Blizzard doesn't hinder GOMTV in any way for Starcraft 2. That could have easily been KeSPA for BW.
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On October 28 2010 13:39 xBillehx wrote:
KeSPA literally refuses to believe Starcraft is a private good, and therefor refuse to respect the IP rights. That's the main issue, and always has been. People just like painting it in a way that theres an evil corporation out to destroy whats good so they can have something to hate. Blizzard doesn't hinder GOMTV in any way for Starcraft 2. That could have easily been KeSPA for BW.
KeSPA has refused to respect Starcraft IP WHERE?
That has never been the problem. The problem has always been the conditions under which Gretech/Blizzard want to license the IP rights.
MBC/OGN have no reason to let Gretech/Blizzard bully their BW leagues out of the primetime slot because of IP license terms. Nor they have a reason to let Blizzard own all the derivative work (player replays, commentary, etc). Nor they have a reason to have Blizzard audit them on what they do with the BW leagues.
The terms under which Gretech/Blizzard want to license Starcraft IP is just ridiculous.
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On October 28 2010 13:23 TheYellowDart wrote:
On another note, does anyone remember when KeSPa boycotted their teams from playing in gom tv season 4?
Once again it wasn't a kespa boycott. It was only a few of the teams who didn't want their players distracted by an additional league that wasn't even televised, only broadcast over the internet.
Actually awhile before that one of the boycotting teams even had a rule that their players were only allowed to play in one individual league at a time - and were not allowed to participate in both OSL and MSL, but that rule was withdrawn.
If it was truly a Kespa boycott, there would have been no players for season 3.
Also, Kespa wasn't selling the rights to broadcast Starcraft itself, but the Proleague, which they operate.
And given that neither side has shown any sign of budging on their negotiation line, I don't think it's likely that a settlement will occur.
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United States238 Posts
I've updated the OP with additional information from Yonhap. It deals with what is the problem in this dispute.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51632 Posts
I still didn't get the part about neighboring rights....Can anyone explain that to me and what sort of ground that KeSPA stands on.
Currently only MBC is being sued right?...not OGN?
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On October 28 2010 14:07 Selith wrote:
I've updated the OP with additional information from Yonhap. It deals with what is the problem in this dispute.
Thank you for more translations. It's highly appreciated and I hope you can continue to update us non Korean speakers throughout the issue.
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United States238 Posts
On October 28 2010 14:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I still didn't get the part about neighboring rights....Can anyone explain that to me?
Wiki to the rescue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighboring_rights
But the short of it is, it's a special rights given to performers who are taking music or something that is copyrighted by someone else, then using that to perform (such as singing).
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imho here is a key point: "Current law sees the broadcasting rights of copyrighted property to be part of the rights for the original IP holder. This means, if the developer of the game has the IP rights, then the right to broadcast also belongs to the developer.".... Let's hope this ends well... Lets hope it does...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51632 Posts
On October 28 2010 14:21 MrHeckOne wrote:
imho here is a key point: "Current law sees the broadcasting rights of copyrighted property to be part of the rights for the original IP holder. This means, if the developer of the game has the IP rights, then the right to broadcast also belongs to the developer.".... Let's hope this ends well... Lets hope it does...
E-sports law is a really new thing and there are a lot of laws and regulation that needs to be passed for them separately.For all I know with the current state of the law regarding E-Sports it can be anyone's game.
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Pretty sad but they really need to get this sorted so court is probably the best way. And i agree that i dont think it will get to dramatic, they will meet in court, see where the winds are blowing and whoever is gonna loose will cut a deal behind closed doors.
And i can really see the PoV for both parties here, broadcasting rights are a pretty big deal.
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Anything that is gonna make BW alive is fine with me, anything.
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On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW.
Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA.
Damn straight.
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Next step is for KeSPA and MBCGame to get a temporary hold on the IP rights so they can continue their league while the lawsuit pans out - this could take months/years and waiting that long would be catastrophic for KeSPA.
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Just hurry up and sue already.
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Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing.
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On October 28 2010 12:03 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. i.e their terms of proleague not taking up prime time spots on TV?
That's probably one of the consequences yes. If you're authoring a bookstore to sell your books you would want them to put the newer books at better spots in the bookstore do you?
To be honest things could be worse if KeSPA wins outright. If game developers have absolutely no IP right when their games being broadcast on TV, no game company will ever want to invest any money and support to make their games become eSport games.
The whole idea of creating Starcraft 2 is to make it a successful esport, and all the money and time Blizzard have spent so far in polishing the game are based on the fundamental assumption that their IP right is to be respected.
As a fan of esports, I certainly don't want any harm to SCBW proscene. But I also don't want Blizzard to completely lose this lawsuit either, as that would be equally disastrous to the future of esports. Hell, if they lose, even Gretech can turn their back and say "hey, if KeSPA can broadcast SC1 games without paying you a dime, why would we have to pay you this much to broadcast Starcraft 2?"
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I think it is a good choice from both parties to abandon the negotiations and take the matter to the respective courts. It is pretty clear that there are multiple sides in the conflict, both with their respective positions and it is also clear that the interpretation of the law and how it should be applied in this case is different for both. That is exactly why there are courts: To resolve such disputes.
It is also really one-sided to think that there is one "good" side and one "bad" side in the negotiations. Depending on who you ask, either Blizzard/Gretech is the devil or KeSPA/OGN/MBC. There are always multiple facets, especially if you don't know everything. It is impossible for us here to know exactly what the parties are thinking, planning and what is happening during the negotiations.
Senseless speculation, fearmongering and hatred doesn't help anyone. Not the community nor the e-sports scene. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't voice your opinion on the matter. But it would be much more helpful if comments were not just pure ranting or hate-spewing. Yes, I understand that you are angry about Party X of your choice, because of reason Y. This doesn't mean that other people and other members of the community can have a different opinion and it shouldn't mean that you should attack them or that you should join a thread just to say, repeatedly, "X sucks, everyone who disagrees is stupid".
The polarizing effect of the IP/negotiation-threads has also led to a hostile atmosphere between SC:BW and SC2. For me it feels that people like me, who love watching BW, but also like watching SC2, have to tread lightly if we don't want to be labeled as "SC2 noobs" by the one crowd and "stupid BW-diehards" by the other side.
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EPT
