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On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight.
Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye.
Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
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On October 28 2010 06:37 Selith wrote:
Blizzard has sent MBCGame and OnGameNet a note requesting them to stop broadcasting. MBCGame refused to follow. So, MBCGame is being targeted for the lawsuit.
So does this mean OGN agreed to stop broadcasting OSL?
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Blizzard are dicks for this. Copyright in general is stupid, this is just over the top. The game is so frickin old and Blizzard wouldn't be making any money off it anyway so what right do they really have. What if the guy who invented the ball demanded cash every time someone played a game involving a ball? It's stupid. The proscene made SC what it is, if anything, blizzard should be paying them.
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On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded.
This is a very unlikely scenario. If Blizzard was only interested in money this would be over by now, it would've been over months ago. They want to move BW out of the way for SC2.
On October 28 2010 08:51 saltywet wrote:
well, ready to boycott blizzard anytime
Way ahead of you. I stopped playing SC2 over this and don't expect I'll go back to it even if this case gets resolved or KeSPA/MBCGame wins the lawsuit.
Let's hope they do though, how anyone who calls themselves a fan of not just StarCraft but of eSports and video games in general could be on Blizzard's side is beyond me. Frankly, the developer shouldn't be involved in broadcasting or organizing eSports. Other developers do not demand revenue from prize money or broadcasting of other games, why Blizzard feels entitled to this is beyond me. If Blizzard wins this case they will single handedly destroy all credibility of eSports outside of South Korea and possibly even in South Korea as well. Or at least, credibility of an eSports scene for Blizzard games.
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight. Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye. Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
Agree 100%.
As for boycotting Blizzard over this, ehhh not there yet.
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On October 28 2010 15:42 ricerocket wrote:
Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing.
Now i am a BW fan and i surely want BW to continue, that likely requires Kespa to win. And it would crush my fanboy heart if some game developers decide to overstep their boundary (of the game-developing industry) to jump in and mess with my favourite field (e-Sport).
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:27 ShadeR wrote:On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years. Your point is null because Kespa use legitimate copies of BW. Edit: KeSPA countered by saying, any and all games that are being used for e-sports purposes are all public property, and cannot have their IP recognized by anyone. So, despite the threat of lawsuits, StarCraft leagues continue with blessings from KeSPA. Damn straight. Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds. They are simply protecting their trademark. Just because Kespa says its public domain doesn't make it so. Lets say I saw a music video on youtube and decided to separate the audio from the flv file and redistribute it - The audio was public domain so why can't I, right? Wrong, the audio is obviously from a CD and the producers of the video had a right to put it on youtube and vevo (the biggest distributer of music videos on youtube) had to get rights to do that. Random people who distribute again aren't exactly being legal, but as long as they keep it to a low audience and don't try to commercialize, people will turn a blind eye. Starcraft stopped being public domain for television for Kespa once they got pro-gamers with salaries and large amounts of prizes involved, otherwise, I'm sure Blizzard would have turned a blind eye.
Your example doesn't work though. Professional StarCraft is much closer to taking a track from a music video or CD and remixing it and currently under U.S. law remixing and IP rights is a finicky issue at best. Blizzard may not have any legal right in America or South Korea to make the demands they're making.
This case has no precedence and no one really knows how it will go. I'd give an advantage to KeSPA and MBCGame as this will be taking place in Korean courts but wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard/Gretech ends up winning a lawsuit. Comparisons to CDs, sports, or other copyrighted material aren't very fair as this case is incredibly unique and will set a precedent for eSports for decades to come.
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Its funny how people side with whichever game they like better. If Kespa and Blizzard were switched places its guaranteed Kespa would be doing the same thing since they are both (somewhat greedy) businesses.
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On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 15:42 ricerocket wrote:
Wow, it almost sounds like you fanboys want Blizzard to lose more than BW to continue. What irony.
The peasant mentality in this thread is astonishing. Now i am a BW fan and i surely want BW to continue, that likely requires Kespa to win. And it would crush my fanboy heart if some game developers decide to overstep their boundary (of the game-developing industry) to jump in and mess with my favourite field (e-Sport). However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all.. So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
Totally agree with this one.
Yes, obviously if Blizzard only want the money (royalty), then this case will be over years ago, especially since KeSPA also agreed to pay some money to Blizzard.
And true, that is the thing that I'm afraid of, when you spending like 8hrs per day, 5 days a week minimal to make a living out of it, then changing scene whenever the developers wants it definitely a nightmare for the players. Pro-scene will definitely hurt much from it, unless you are a super skilled player who can learn / change game in a short time, then semi-pro is the best logical possibilities.
as a side note: I do love SC BW but it doesn't make me a die hard fans that will side blindly to whichever organizations who's running SC BW. However I really amazed with pro-scene BW, which really ahead in pro-gaming scene compare to other games IMHO. This made me feel really sad if the pro-scene dies.
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On October 28 2010 12:56 Loophole wrote:
It seems to me it doesn't matter how "active" MBCGame was, or how reasonable KESPA or MBCG were. In the end, it's blizzard's game, and if the buyer doesn't like the price, they don't buy. KESPA sold rights to broadcast Starcraft, which obviously is not theirs to sell.
If i walk into a music store and I don't like the fact that the CD I want is $25, I can't just grab it and walk out of the store with it. It doesn't work that way people. It doesn't make it any better that KESPA got away with it for years.
More like the right to broadcast Starleague and other competitions by their players which belongs to them not Blizzard...
Any way its all shady since both sides have their IP rights and deciding which one of them is right will be tough for the court.
I see a quick way out for Blizzard out of it (but the fans will flame them hard).
They should just release a small "balancing" patch and include in it a new TOS:
"...All torunaments require a blizzard aprovall...
...Participating in a non-sanction tournament will result in banning the cd-key..."
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good stuff, SC2 is going to be smooth soon or later i guess 
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On October 28 2010 15:48 Railz wrote:
Owning a CD also doesn't give you a right to publicly broadcast it, ESPECIALLY when you get money for it. You have to have a license for it. Nothing Blizzard is doing is illegal or out of bounds.
Oh, sure. All those breathtaking progames happened just like this, you turned on the computers and they played by themselves. Somehow every time they played the scenarios're completely different. Like you bought a song and you couldn't guess whether it would be The Beatles or Jon Bon Jovi each time it played.
Can't believe there're such stupid analogues by some people. SCBW is a software, a tool. Most of the creative work are done by gamers and organizers. The issue should be settled in favor of the people who make SCBW an esport success. Afaik, Blizzard contributes little to this except for patches like any software vender should provide.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
This therad is making me sick....I'm just gonna watch the MSL qualifiers.
BW will last regardless of what happens in court.Blizzard knows they can't stop it.
+ Show Spoiler += Off-Topic]this may be a little off topic but why do you guys boycott SC2?(or any blizzard game other than BW)
If its because you don't like it....then I understand.But stuff like "blizz is killing BW we hate you, I'mma never gonna buy shit from you again,especially sc2" is just stupid.you don't like it don't buy it,if you like it then just buy it(if you can).You are not betraying BW by buying SC2 and you are not helping blizzard use your money to kill BW.the guys in the SC2 team have worked their butts off to make a good game(yeah its a few fixes here and there and then the rest is up to us)and these guys have done nothing wrong,don't tarnish someones hard work because his bosses are using it in the wrong way.
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I can see both sides of the argument but in the end no matter who is right the real loser here is Broodwar and its community of players and fans, it's very sad.
The only possible way that this could have a happy ending is if Blizzard or Gretech actually set up their own Broodwar tournaments and team league and invite the same players and teams to participate, but it's unlikely that's going to happen with their focus on Sc2.
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On October 28 2010 09:43 caelym wrote:
Totally support Blizzard and Gretech on this. IP rights are IP rights. Kespa and broadcasting station are lucky to have milked the BW cash cow for over 10 years.
Yeah eSports, such a cashcow and hugely successful business venture for the non-profit KeSPA and MBC who hardly makes a profit at all.
I'll make a longer post about this in the future but i'm glad this is happening, maybe we can finally get eSports recognized as a public interest and a corporate interest to be satisfied.
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It's interesting to see diehard BWer reactions to this... since most view it as Blizzard trying to off BW. Folks, Blizzard may like money, a whole bunch, but they've never proven to be stupid. They're smart enough to know a serious attempt to murder BW would make a martyr of the situation.
I've said this in other threads, it is mostly about how KeSPA uses profits gained from BW broadcasts that bother Blizzard. Thus far, KeSPA has liberally abused the IP to fund domestic development. It's a double slap in the face.
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On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties..
Two things:
1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet.
2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 15:46 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 12:03 Plexa wrote:On October 28 2010 09:31 mrdx wrote:On October 28 2010 09:07 LegendaryZ wrote:On October 28 2010 08:48 tournamentnow wrote:
I like where this is heading, Kespa old bunch of corrupted bureaucrats will need to deal with their own legal system. Of course the korean legal system may itself be corrupted because you've got connections throughout the all organisations. There's so much money on the line.. You DO realize that if Blizzard wins this, it's very possible that the pro teams may disband and the BW leagues may disappear, right? No, don't overdramatize it. If KeSPA/MBCGame/OGN lose, they will pay Blizzard a fine and accept Blizzard/Gretech's terms. The Starleagues get hurt but will most likely be carried on. Blizzard may be tough and greedy but they are not retarded. i.e their terms of proleague not taking up prime time spots on TV? That's probably one of the consequences yes. If you're authoring a bookstore to sell your books you would want them to put the newer books at better spots in the bookstore do you? To be honest things could be worse if KeSPA wins outright. If game developers have absolutely no IP right when their games being broadcast on TV, no game company will ever want to invest any money and support to make their games become eSport games. The whole idea of creating Starcraft 2 is to make it a successful esport, and all the money and time Blizzard have spent so far in polishing the game are based on the fundamental assumption that their IP right is to be respected. As a fan of esports, I certainly don't want any harm to SCBW proscene. But I also don't want Blizzard to completely lose this lawsuit either, as that would be equally disastrous to the future of esports. Hell, if they lose, even Gretech can turn their back and say "hey, if KeSPA can broadcast SC1 games without paying you a dime, why would we have to pay you this much to broadcast Starcraft 2?"
Sorry, didn't GOMTV pay Blizzard a negligible amount of money? Like 1 won? And would it be really that bad if game developers only get money from the games they sell and royalties for broadcasts? It's almost like their games already get loads of advertisement or something.
If the precedent is that popular games will be broadcasted on TV and their IP-holder gets an amount of money that is proportionate to the profits of the scene, I would call that a good thing. Even if their IP isn't "respected" like when all the players and their input automatically belong to the IP holder.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 28 2010 17:55 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties.. Two things: 1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet. 2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
Believe me i was a huge fan of Blizzard until recently.. I rebought Diablo Battle Chest, Starcraft Battle Chest, Warcraft 3 Battle Chest in the past few years only because i misplaced my original copies.. They deserve credit as a successful game developer.. I will continue to purchase their games in the future if they will prove to be great games.. I did not purchase Sc2. However it is no coincidence that fans like me are starting to turn against them..
1/ In RTS, we see a decline in game quality starting with
-Starcraft as quite possibly the best RTS ever, with perfect balance (in more ways than one) in gameplay (i wont elaborate as i assume most people here are familiar)..
-Warcraft 3 was great, not matching SC:BW in spectating value, but a great game in its own rights, with many innovations like unique Hero units, with a miriad of skills, gaining levels and empowering themselves with different items.. Additional features like Aura, passive skills, attack-type vs armor-type countering, and an RPG-ish campaign are also great innovations..
-Then we have SC2. Outside the slightly different campaign system, where u get research points instead of items to power up your army and a few very minor "choices" which didnt really affect the gameplay or story much.. There was nothing else..
Nevermind the complete lack of innovation, some of the key gameplay element arent present either.
1/ LAN.. i cant stress enough how this is absolutely necessary for high level gameplay
2/ Lack of balance (Terran was too strong before, seemingly Zerg is too strong now).. This is looking more and more like WC3 where each race just took turn (outside of Undead) to be overpowered with each updates.
3/ Little things in the gameplay mechanics: Highground advantage (unit have a chance to miss their attack from lower ground).. This would add nicely to strategic element of gameplay.. It was there for BW, and for WC3, its not there in SC2.
I wont go into details with WoW.. Suffice to say it werent ever truly balanced either (Arcane Mage from 3.2 - 3.3.2, FuryWarr most of the time, Rogue in 3.3 for DPS.. Holydin for 3.3.3 as Healer?).. If you would actually take a look at Guild War, personally i find it a much more quality MMORPG.. But Blizz's fanbase is huge, and popularity along makes up a huge part of an MMORPG's success (good MMORPG with few people playing is trash, especially when you need people to do missions with n stuffs)..
This point explains why my trust in Blizz's SC2 is low.. I feel (with good reasons) that their fluke in SC:BW wont happen again.. And until they can prove me otherwise, i see no reason to trust their new toy to "take e-Sports to new heights"
2/ Theres too many "if" in that statement and as stated before i dont see any reasons why i would give Blizz the benefit of the doubt, and support them over someone who already created and maintained a successful model over 10 years.. All the more so when in their new EULA, they reserve all rights to kill off SC2 whenever they want. Pro-gaming can never be a stable job if some random guy can kill off the whole industry at a whim (and likely to do it every few years).
Imo, the future looks bleak for any industry if one guy (firm) is capable of killing it off with the snap of a finger, much more so if that guy is almost guaranteed to do it (everytime their new game come out)
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 17:55 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 16:31 ffreakk wrote:
However, personally speaking, Blizzard losing is even more important if you want to compare that with BW continuing.. As a gaming fan, the future looks bleak if the game developer is entitled all rights to derivative goods that stems from their product. Sure they deserve royalties (aka an appropriate amount of money), but giving them the rights to pull the plug as soon as their next game come out only means that the player (especially those who invest thousands of hours to become "pro") and the viewers are given no rights and respect at all..
So in my opinion, monetary royalties should have sufficed for the original developers.. The scene (teams, players, fans, tourneys, replays, etc) should also be rewarded for the blood, sweat, and tears. That is the right to enjoy the product after paying for their copy, and paying their royalties.. Two things: 1. I can't believe how little trust Blizz gets for a company that not only developed you guys' favorite game, but also reshaped three entire genres of games with its three franchises. Sure, Blizz hasn't been known to be a successful host for eSport, mainly because it hasn't really done it in the first place. But it also never made a MMO before WoW, and not a free online gaming platform before Bnet. 2. Like Blizz said, different regions have different acceptable business models. For BW, and eSport in general, a lot of the revenue comes from advertising. It is quite possible that that kind of revenue can be entirely what is needed to make a game successful instead of purely selling software. And if that business model turns out to be successful, eSport would benefit even more, because game developers can focus on making and balancing games for the most skilled competitors instead of catering for the entire spectrum. I fail to see how the future looks "bleak" for eSport when Blizz wins this battle.
1. Trust is proportionate to the amount of risk involved. There is not much room to fuck this up, and some of their statements like the GSL philosophy leave a lot of fear in the hearts of BW fans. Also, because Reagan turned from succesful actor to succesful politician does not mean he could also lead a third world company in a field he is not familiar with. Expecting such a thing is exactly what the stuff of fanboyism is: Unreasonable expectations based on not much of anything. Like Bisu winning an OSL.
2. If the game developers overdo balancing and making games, it might lead to the exact same thing as now. A formerly successful game being possibly sacrificed "due to allocation of resources" in order to promote a game that shows a degree of promise, yet isn't universally accepted yet. If the control levers are in the hands of companies, this might already drive other companies who'd love to invest in such a sport away because they have no way of influencing the turn of events. That is a huge risk, and while the game developer might feel slightly better at ease, I really don't think the other investors will. Especially if we're talking long term investments such as teams.
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