On October 08 2010 09:26 HiHiByeBye wrote: Why are they buffing zerg when
in Diamond
49.6% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In Plat 47.3% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg. 44.5% win for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In gold
49.5% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
+ the two new maps. Zergs are doing fine?
All those numbers show is that the matchmaking system is working as intended. Even if zerg were at a huge disadvantage, they would still win about half their games because they would simply be matched against protoss and terran player who are so much worse that the skill difference compensates for the imbalance.
With the increase in roach range, reapers will be completely destroyed by a couple of roaches, being unable to attack back / kite unlike now. Reapers are already pretty bad against protoss except in the early-early game, since a single stalker can shut down any form of reaper harass. They are a unit that quickly loses feasibility as the game progresses... making the speed upgrade require a factory seems ridiculous.
This depot before rax is really going to hurt against protoss warpgagte in the base strat/cannon rush, second they drop a pylon i throw down a rax and it always finishes before gateway. Often this is before the first depot even goes down. so now im just supposed to wait and lol while he cannon rushes me. Terrible terrible change.
Wow. Now I'm starting to get satisfied with Blizzard and Dustin Browder. I was screaming for radical changes and what does he post in that report? Radical changes indeed and explicitly saying that those changes aren't the only ones coming. I cant even believe my eyes when i see people reacting in a negative manner on the supply depot/barracks change. This only further reduces the amount of cheese builds in use thus resulting in a less of a guessing game. You do commit to the cheese/anti-cheese build before you know what your opponent is doing. Cheeses are indeed done blindly and adds to the random factor in every game. This has been one of the most negative things in this game so far since the beta. I will not miss this aspect of the game in the slightest. This change will make the game a lot better, a whole lot better in fact.
Further Blizzard has now effectively moved towards reducing the early game annoyance of reapers. With the depot/rax change cheese builds containing reapers will be gone which excellent of course. Also i think that the factory for the speed upgrade is an excellent change. I will certainly not miss the early speed reapers in early game. But if the unit isn't going to be put into the trash can they have to give it something in return such as a radically lowered build time so that they can be built in acceptable time in mid game for base harassment which i hope will be the main role of the reaper.
My verdict on these preliminary notes are a fat thumbs up although I'm hoping that they will address the epic boredom of Banshees and Void Rays by some tweaks in future patches.
And for the ass sniffers in here who cares about race/rating:
I'm a 1500+ diamond Z player who switched to T a week ago who played P in the beta. And yes, i know this is considered to be mid diamond - nothing special.
On October 08 2010 09:11 Stegosaur wrote: As a Zerg player I must say the Roach buff was a good call, they'll be a lot less clunky even with 4 range instead of 3 (which is a 33% upgrade, just to drive home the point). The blinking while in fungal growth thing annoyed me greatly when I've had it happen to me and I guess it's nice.
But the real meat of this announcement is in the Terran nerfs which, in my opinion, are over the top and incredibly harsh It seems like Blizzard really hates cheese and I have to disagree with that, cheese is good for the game since it makes you actually consider being punished for a sub-optimal build (or just a greedy one) with the threat of your opponent doing something gay. Not saying that Blizz is removing cheese altogether but it's a slippery slope.
Cheese results in less skilled players defeating more skilled players, and adding an element of chance/randomness to the game, which I completely disagree with. In a game with less cheese, the better player is rewarded more for his skill, and the newby cheeser has to learn how to actually play the game.
Besides, Blizzard rightly wants SC2 to be a spectator sport, and with a large number of cheesey games under 10 minutes, its bad for the game.
Sorry to put it this bluntly but you're simply wrong. While cheese certainly adds a degree of randomness to the game I fail to see how something as basal as a buildorder doesn't? Lesser players could get lucky and score a buildorder win all the time (check out the upset vs Flash), that's just how the game works, especially once you get to the higher levels.
As for cheese not being spectatorfriendly or being something for newbies, you're wrong here too. Spectators eat up cheese, it gets the blood pumping and it results in some of the most memorable games ever:
Yeah, and Idra losing to proxy void rays was really cool too.
That wasn't cheese mate, also I fail to see how this is in any way relevant to the topic at hand.
Proxy void rays isn't cheese? Right, because a Plat player could have executed the exact same build and defeated Idra with it.
I've edited my post to be a bit more elaborate, basically what it says is a buildorder loss isn't cheese and proxy voidrays isn't a 100% bulletproof strategy anyway so I really see no problem here.
Of course proxy voids isn't 100% bulletproof, that's the definition of cheese, rolling the dice, and hoping for a double six. That doesn't mean its not effective at the highest levels, (Zelniq was discussing about how effective it is in a separate thread today). I'm not saying we shouldn't have any cheese whatsoever, it just needs to be reasonably risky, such that its not so prevalent as to become standard. BS and BBS builds currently give great early pressure with relatively little economic sacrifice (thanks to mule).
On October 08 2010 09:26 HiHiByeBye wrote: Why are they buffing zerg when
in Diamond
49.6% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In Plat 47.3% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg. 44.5% win for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In gold
49.5% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
+ the two new maps. Zergs are doing fine?
All those numbers show is that the matchmaking system is working as intended. Even if zerg were at a huge disadvantage, they would still win about half their games because they would simply be matched against protoss and terran player who are so much worse that the skill difference compensates for the imbalance.
EDIT -> These numbers take individual player skill into account, which helps to avoid the 50% win/loss percentage effect that the matchmaking system can impart on straight win/loss ratios.
On October 08 2010 09:55 SyyRaaaN wrote: Wow. Now I'm starting to get satisfied with Blizzard and Dustin Browder. I was screaming for radical changes and what does he post in that report? Radical changes indeed and explicitly saying that those changes aren't the only ones coming. I cant even believe my eyes when i see people reacting in a negative manner on the supply depot/barracks change. This only further reduces the amount of cheese builds in use thus resulting in a less of a guessing game. You do commit to the cheese/anti-cheese build before you know what your opponent is doing. Cheeses are indeed done blindly and adds to the random factor in every game. This has been one of the most negative things in this game so far since the beta. I will not miss this aspect of the game in the slightest. This change will make the game a lot better, a whole lot better in fact.
Further Blizzard has now effectively moved towards reducing the early game annoyance of reapers. With the depot/rax change cheese builds containing reapers will be gone which excellent of course. Also i think that the factory for the speed upgrade is an excellent change. I will certainly not miss the early speed reapers in early game. But if the unit isn't going to be put into the trash can they have to give it something in return such as a radically lowered build time so that they can be built in acceptable time in mid game for base harassment which i hope will be the main role of the reaper.
My verdict on these preliminary notes are a fat thumbs up although I'm hoping that they will address the epic boredom of Banshees and Void Rays by some tweaks in future patches.
And for the ass sniffers in here who cares about race/rating:
I'm a 1500+ diamond Z player who switched to T a week ago who played P in the beta. And yes, i know this is considered to be mid diamond - nothing special.
No one likes getting cheesed, but removing cheese entirely from the game like they're doing with early rax is stupid IMO. Less variety is bad.
Yo all these balance changes would be more or less unncessesary if defense wasn't so terrible in SC2.
Instead we have hard counters and timing attacks that literally require mass troops to stop in virtually every circumstance, so there's obviously no place for micro units (like current reapers) when the game is supposed to be about two armies slamming into each other in one big dumb fight.
On October 08 2010 09:55 SyyRaaaN wrote: Wow. Now I'm starting to get satisfied with Blizzard and Dustin Browder. I was screaming for radical changes and what does he post in that report? Radical changes indeed and explicitly saying that those changes aren't the only ones coming. I cant even believe my eyes when i see people reacting in a negative manner on the supply depot/barracks change. This only further reduces the amount of cheese builds in use thus resulting in a less of a guessing game. You do commit to the cheese/anti-cheese build before you know what your opponent is doing. Cheeses are indeed done blindly and adds to the random factor in every game. This has been one of the most negative things in this game so far since the beta. I will not miss this aspect of the game in the slightest. This change will make the game a lot better, a whole lot better in fact.
Further Blizzard has now effectively moved towards reducing the early game annoyance of reapers. With the depot/rax change cheese builds containing reapers will be gone which excellent of course. Also i think that the factory for the speed upgrade is an excellent change. I will certainly not miss the early speed reapers in early game. But if the unit isn't going to be put into the trash can they have to give it something in return such as a radically lowered build time so that they can be built in acceptable time in mid game for base harassment which i hope will be the main role of the reaper.
My verdict on these preliminary notes are a fat thumbs up although I'm hoping that they will address the epic boredom of Banshees and Void Rays by some tweaks in future patches.
And for the ass sniffers in here who cares about race/rating:
I'm a 1500+ diamond Z player who switched to T a week ago who played P in the beta. And yes, i know this is considered to be mid diamond - nothing special.
No one likes getting cheesed, but removing cheese entirely from the game like they're doing with early rax is stupid IMO. Less variety is bad.
They are not removing it, just making it more costly for Terrans. The way it ist now, T have (by far) the cheapest way of applying early pressure.
Cheese is supposed to make your eco suffer, and this is and will not be the case for T until the new patch.
On October 08 2010 08:53 ahcho00 wrote: chrono boosted a zealot vs 2 rines? who wins. yea i'm pretty sure the protoss were meant to have that constraint because their tier 1 unit is pretty superior to the marine.
On October 08 2010 09:26 HiHiByeBye wrote: Why are they buffing zerg when
in Diamond
49.6% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In Plat 47.3% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg. 44.5% win for Terran when fighting Zerg.
In gold
49.5% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.
+ the two new maps. Zergs are doing fine?
All those numbers show is that the matchmaking system is working as intended. Even if zerg were at a huge disadvantage, they would still win about half their games because they would simply be matched against protoss and terran player who are so much worse that the skill difference compensates for the imbalance.
Yeah thats 100% true those stats cant be used for anyting with balance.
I'm pretty sure the matchmaking system makes the assumption that the races are balanced, because it doesn't match me against stronger protoss players (I have only lost 2 games to protoss out of 60 1v1's). It does this because I keep losing vs Terrans and Zergs, so my rating stays low. Perhaps I'm just really poor at the other matchups, or really good against toss, but the point is that I have a very high win percentage against protoss because I'm not playing against protoss at my skill level, I'm playing against protoss players at the skill level of the Terran and Zergs I keep losing to. It would be nice if they had ratings per matchup, as I think that would provide more robust statistics that could provide more insights into balance, because as it is right now, my ZvP is simply far superior to my ZvZ and ZvT, and its producing invalid win-rate statistics according to the assumption that me and my enemy are of equal skill when we are not.
On October 08 2010 09:55 SyyRaaaN wrote: Wow. Now I'm starting to get satisfied with Blizzard and Dustin Browder. I was screaming for radical changes and what does he post in that report? Radical changes indeed and explicitly saying that those changes aren't the only ones coming. I cant even believe my eyes when i see people reacting in a negative manner on the supply depot/barracks change. This only further reduces the amount of cheese builds in use thus resulting in a less of a guessing game. You do commit to the cheese/anti-cheese build before you know what your opponent is doing. Cheeses are indeed done blindly and adds to the random factor in every game. This has been one of the most negative things in this game so far since the beta. I will not miss this aspect of the game in the slightest. This change will make the game a lot better, a whole lot better in fact.
Further Blizzard has now effectively moved towards reducing the early game annoyance of reapers. With the depot/rax change cheese builds containing reapers will be gone which excellent of course. Also i think that the factory for the speed upgrade is an excellent change. I will certainly not miss the early speed reapers in early game. But if the unit isn't going to be put into the trash can they have to give it something in return such as a radically lowered build time so that they can be built in acceptable time in mid game for base harassment which i hope will be the main role of the reaper.
My verdict on these preliminary notes are a fat thumbs up although I'm hoping that they will address the epic boredom of Banshees and Void Rays by some tweaks in future patches.
And for the ass sniffers in here who cares about race/rating:
I'm a 1500+ diamond Z player who switched to T a week ago who played P in the beta. And yes, i know this is considered to be mid diamond - nothing special.
No one likes getting cheesed, but removing cheese entirely from the game like they're doing with early rax is stupid IMO. Less variety is bad.
As another poster stated, it's not entirely removed. Versus a 14 hatch Z player you probably can still send out an early scout (before the depot) and building a 11 Barracks near him + a bunker with the same SCV. Thats not a cheese in my book. Thats more of a solid rush based on scouting, not on luck.
I actually don't know if that is possible with current BO timings, but thats how "cheeses" should be viable in an RTS imho.
With depot required before rax, will this weaken T's walls therefore making baneling busts more powerful? Some people are going to put 2 depots and 1 rax on narrow chokes.
They shouldn't make supply a requirement for a rax but instead make a requirement for the addons. Make the engineering bay a requirement for tech labs and reactor cores on barracks and also make factories open up tech labs and reactors (this way a meching terran doesn't need to get an engineering bay if they really don't want to).
This still allows terran to do early marine pushes and also prevents terrans from going mass marauder against protoss. Engineering bays aren't too expensive (125 minerals) so I can't see this killing terran in TvP because they can only make marines for a bit.
On October 08 2010 09:55 SyyRaaaN wrote: Wow. Now I'm starting to get satisfied with Blizzard and Dustin Browder. I was screaming for radical changes and what does he post in that report? Radical changes indeed and explicitly saying that those changes aren't the only ones coming. I cant even believe my eyes when i see people reacting in a negative manner on the supply depot/barracks change. This only further reduces the amount of cheese builds in use thus resulting in a less of a guessing game. You do commit to the cheese/anti-cheese build before you know what your opponent is doing. Cheeses are indeed done blindly and adds to the random factor in every game. This has been one of the most negative things in this game so far since the beta. I will not miss this aspect of the game in the slightest. This change will make the game a lot better, a whole lot better in fact.
Further Blizzard has now effectively moved towards reducing the early game annoyance of reapers. With the depot/rax change cheese builds containing reapers will be gone which excellent of course. Also i think that the factory for the speed upgrade is an excellent change. I will certainly not miss the early speed reapers in early game. But if the unit isn't going to be put into the trash can they have to give it something in return such as a radically lowered build time so that they can be built in acceptable time in mid game for base harassment which i hope will be the main role of the reaper.
My verdict on these preliminary notes are a fat thumbs up although I'm hoping that they will address the epic boredom of Banshees and Void Rays by some tweaks in future patches.
And for the ass sniffers in here who cares about race/rating:
I'm a 1500+ diamond Z player who switched to T a week ago who played P in the beta. And yes, i know this is considered to be mid diamond - nothing special.
No one likes getting cheesed, but removing cheese entirely from the game like they're doing with early rax is stupid IMO. Less variety is bad.
Well, we need to draw the line somewhere, as "variety" in the form of random guessing games is not good for highly competitive gaming. Cheese is ok to an extent, but it needs to take skill to pull off correctly like in BW, and be risky enough that it doesn't become a staple.
EPT
It seems like Blizzard really hates cheese and I have to disagree with that, cheese is good for the game since it makes you actually consider being punished for a sub-optimal build (or just a greedy one) with the threat of your opponent doing something gay.
