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On October 06 2010 04:58 splints wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 22:47 ironchef wrote:On October 05 2010 21:53 papaz wrote:On October 05 2010 20:39 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 20:18 Ginastic wrote:
"- FlaSh is three years younger then me so I will be too old if I continue to play for another five years"
Why do SC players retire so early...? I could understand if it was football or any other sports, but SC you should be able to play much looonger Try imagining what years of practice 13 hours a day do to your wrists. Also, your reaction speed and multitasking abilities become progressively worse. If people can drive formula 1/play tennis in ATP tour/be fighter pilots and lots more at age of 25-35 I don't know how much better reaction skills SC needs so that you can't compete at age 25. Yeah... My guess is it's more of a social thing. As progressed as Korea is with eSports, I get the feeling most dont want to do it for too long and feel the need to get a "real job" or get married eventually. Even if its still eSport related, like analyst/coach/commentator, but not like as a player. Given the lifespan of games, and it still being a bit shaky industry,I think it's a reasonable position. Look at boxer... he still plays sc but you can see that he just can't cope with the micro/multitasks as well
Watching his game vs Idra that he basically lost from the beginning letting Idra expand so quickly and then coming back from nothing and almost winning makes me think that Boxer has a shot if he gets serious. I doubt he is all that serious about SC right now.
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On October 05 2010 21:30 Legace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:56 wiesel wrote:On October 05 2010 13:38 Dfgj wrote:On October 05 2010 08:32 Nade wrote:On October 05 2010 07:47 HeavyArmZ wrote:On October 05 2010 07:37 Nade wrote:On October 05 2010 07:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 05 2010 05:18 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 02:11 Trizz wrote:
Why don't people want JD to switch to SC2, or any progamer at all?
SC2 is THE future, I'd love to see JD switch asap.
Now with these new replay features, ingame cam, you can even drool more while watching his replays..
Hoping JD will stay Zerg, he'd probably bring some new creative play to the race.
I simply can't wait, I wish it was tomorrow. It might be a bleak future, with stupid micro, even more stupid gimmicks and graphics that make it hard to understand what's even going on. It's a future where area denial has become a battle of high ground vs. no high ground, not spider mines, lurkers, reavers or split strike forces. Massive blobs roam the battlefield, and harassment becomes harder to do since less bases are needed to get a critical mass of units out. Whereas WCG, the least important major BW tourney, with only 3 koreans, a "stale game", produced epic matches where a single scarab shot was way more exciting than I envision SC2 to go at this moment. If you don't believe me, watch JD vs. Flash game 2, or Kal vs. Flash game 1. I can't imagine this sort of greatness in any other game. And yet I see it ripped away for promises of an uncertain future. Sure, people like SC2, and I'm sure they have their reasons. But there isn't a shortage of players in the SC2 scene, and I don't understand why people feel the need for BW to be ripped apart. It would be a shame if SC2 crashes and burns, and there is no BW to pick up the pieces and give E-sports another try with a new game. The ONLY reason scarabs are interesting at all is because you never know if they are going to actually work. The odd bug of scarabs increased spectator tension at the cost of gameplay. Everything else in BW is equally exciting in SC2. The only reason you see this amazing BW greatness is because your eyes are all gleaming for BW nostalgia. The only thing i find SC2 interesting as a viewer are cutesy built by players You have obviously not watched the most recent GSL matches. Or even older ones, Cool vs OgsToP was imho even better than the finals (where Rainbow insisted too much on one strat), the semi-finals had some interesting stuff too. I've said it to pretty much every BW fanboy - BW hasn't developed and reached its top notch state of the art strategy game in 2 months, I don't care how many "pros" existed back then and how many "pros" there are now (trying to unveil all the possible bos), things will take some time. Don't go condemning the game just because it's not 100% a copy of the original. Plus, it's not looking grim at all with the latest tournies I've watched. I'd love to see how guys like JD and Flash would fare in SC 2, I wonder if they'd dominate as hard as the current sc1 progamers are. what???? i pretty much follow most of the matches in GSL, especially from the top 32 onwards. we are talking about spectator view, the only thing decent i could have think of is baneling bomb, and mass ultralisk against thor is so spectacular, NOT. and stop the BW fan boy shit. the 'wow' factor in the games are too little for the game to be nice for viewing pleasure. There is a cap in sc2 skill level, with all the features we have, >12 unit per group i won't be surprise if boxer nada didn't even made it to the final or get eliminated by no namers. The difference between a good and pro player margin gap is much more closer then it is in brood war. I found the finals to be on-par with BW in terms of spectator appeal. Players had multitask, didn't just 1a with a giant ball, and there were exciting battles with flanks/micro. You can't compare the greatest BW games to it, but the GSL final was better than quite a BW finals imo, and that's a good start.. Uhm i found the GSL to be the most boring finals i probably ever watched in e-sport history in my last 10 years. I don't watch much sc2 but when you find these games exciting i don't know honestly what to say. From my spectator experience there was really nothing exciting at all in all these GSL games. The finals were not that exciting to be frank. It was way to onesided and Fruitseller made ITR look extremely bad on a few occasions. Both Fruitsellers and ITR's quarter and semifinals were much better.
In general finals games tend to be less exciting, lots of cheesing, all ins, risky stuff that doesn't work out. It's not just in starcraft or starcraft 2 (Although i think this final was at least better than flash vs effort osl final) but I can definitely see huge improvements being made every week in sc2. Also, because of the whole counter system, it seems like the number of strategies that are possible will never end in a glorious rock -> paper -> sisscor battle. If rock gets too popular, use paper, etc etc. Which makes scouting insanely more important than ever. Although many progamers will succeed in sc2, they will have to adapt to the huge mental game that goes on in sc2. Information will become more valuable than units, expansion timings will have to be perfected. Also with the addition of easy drop tech, nydus, blink stalkers, warpgates, proxy racks, players will be constantly on the defense for harass, while trying to get any lead that they can manage.
I think jaedong has what it takes to make sc2 better and brighter and look foward to they day he comes over.
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On October 05 2010 22:47 ironchef wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 21:53 papaz wrote:On October 05 2010 20:39 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 20:18 Ginastic wrote:
"- FlaSh is three years younger then me so I will be too old if I continue to play for another five years"
Why do SC players retire so early...? I could understand if it was football or any other sports, but SC you should be able to play much looonger Try imagining what years of practice 13 hours a day do to your wrists. Also, your reaction speed and multitasking abilities become progressively worse. If people can drive formula 1/play tennis in ATP tour/be fighter pilots and lots more at age of 25-35 I don't know how much better reaction skills SC needs so that you can't compete at age 25. Yeah... My guess is it's more of a social thing. As progressed as Korea is with eSports, I get the feeling most dont want to do it for too long and feel the need to get a "real job" or get married eventually. Even if its still eSport related, like analyst/coach/commentator, but not like as a player. Given the lifespan of games, and it still being a bit shaky industry,I think it's a reasonable position.
Look at the Old-boy series, it is the perfect example.
+ Show Spoiler +He practices his ass off, ravages all nighter practice session and still gets owned by the young guns in prelims
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On October 05 2010 08:32 Nade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 07:47 HeavyArmZ wrote:On October 05 2010 07:37 Nade wrote:On October 05 2010 07:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 05 2010 05:18 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 02:11 Trizz wrote:
Why don't people want JD to switch to SC2, or any progamer at all?
SC2 is THE future, I'd love to see JD switch asap.
Now with these new replay features, ingame cam, you can even drool more while watching his replays..
Hoping JD will stay Zerg, he'd probably bring some new creative play to the race.
I simply can't wait, I wish it was tomorrow. It might be a bleak future, with stupid micro, even more stupid gimmicks and graphics that make it hard to understand what's even going on. It's a future where area denial has become a battle of high ground vs. no high ground, not spider mines, lurkers, reavers or split strike forces. Massive blobs roam the battlefield, and harassment becomes harder to do since less bases are needed to get a critical mass of units out. Whereas WCG, the least important major BW tourney, with only 3 koreans, a "stale game", produced epic matches where a single scarab shot was way more exciting than I envision SC2 to go at this moment. If you don't believe me, watch JD vs. Flash game 2, or Kal vs. Flash game 1. I can't imagine this sort of greatness in any other game. And yet I see it ripped away for promises of an uncertain future. Sure, people like SC2, and I'm sure they have their reasons. But there isn't a shortage of players in the SC2 scene, and I don't understand why people feel the need for BW to be ripped apart. It would be a shame if SC2 crashes and burns, and there is no BW to pick up the pieces and give E-sports another try with a new game. The ONLY reason scarabs are interesting at all is because you never know if they are going to actually work. The odd bug of scarabs increased spectator tension at the cost of gameplay. Everything else in BW is equally exciting in SC2. The only reason you see this amazing BW greatness is because your eyes are all gleaming for BW nostalgia. The only thing i find SC2 interesting as a viewer are cutesy built by players You have obviously not watched the most recent GSL matches. Or even older ones, Cool vs OgsToP was imho even better than the finals (where Rainbow insisted too much on one strat), the semi-finals had some interesting stuff too. I've said it to pretty much every BW fanboy - BW hasn't developed and reached its top notch state of the art strategy game in 2 months, I don't care how many "pros" existed back then and how many "pros" there are now (trying to unveil all the possible bos), things will take some time. Don't go condemning the game just because it's not 100% a copy of the original. Plus, it's not looking grim at all with the latest tournies I've watched. I'd love to see how guys like JD and Flash would fare in SC 2, I wonder if they'd dominate as hard as the current sc1 progamers are. what???? i pretty much follow most of the matches in GSL, especially from the top 32 onwards. we are talking about spectator view, the only thing decent i could have think of is baneling bomb, and mass ultralisk against thor is so spectacular, NOT. and stop the BW fan boy shit. the 'wow' factor in the games are too little for the game to be nice for viewing pleasure. There is a cap in sc2 skill level, with all the features we have, >12 unit per group i won't be surprise if boxer nada didn't even made it to the final or get eliminated by no namers. The difference between a good and pro player margin gap is much more closer then it is in brood war.
Lol at skill cap in sc2. There is no such thing as a skill cap. You can always get better at making workers, scouting, harassing, perfecting build timings, positioning your army, building stuff, splitting the army for a better surround, keeping up constant pressure. Yes, some of the tedious things are gone, but that means players will have more time for other things. If anything, the skill cap in sc2 is higher because there are a lot more things you can do at one given time. The only loss in skill cap is early game (<50) where even gold players can play close to optimal, but thankfully games usually last longer than 50 food. (As a reminder, even in chess average ranked players can play perfect openings because they memorize the different lines. It's when you get into unknown territory that pros stick out.)
As the wow factor, I find sc2 to be more enjoyable more often. Yes there are some amazing sc1 games, but there is usually very little surprise. I think watching TLO nuke so that his tanks could get in position was the most excited i've ever gotten over a video game ever. Also, as much as the players hate it, watching early game harass is a lot of fun.
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United States7481 Posts
On October 06 2010 05:18 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 22:47 ironchef wrote:On October 05 2010 21:53 papaz wrote:On October 05 2010 20:39 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 20:18 Ginastic wrote:
"- FlaSh is three years younger then me so I will be too old if I continue to play for another five years"
Why do SC players retire so early...? I could understand if it was football or any other sports, but SC you should be able to play much looonger Try imagining what years of practice 13 hours a day do to your wrists. Also, your reaction speed and multitasking abilities become progressively worse. If people can drive formula 1/play tennis in ATP tour/be fighter pilots and lots more at age of 25-35 I don't know how much better reaction skills SC needs so that you can't compete at age 25. Yeah... My guess is it's more of a social thing. As progressed as Korea is with eSports, I get the feeling most dont want to do it for too long and feel the need to get a "real job" or get married eventually. Even if its still eSport related, like analyst/coach/commentator, but not like as a player. Given the lifespan of games, and it still being a bit shaky industry,I think it's a reasonable position. Look at the Old-boy series, it is the perfect example. + Show Spoiler +He practices his ass off, ravages all nighter practice session and still gets owned by the young guns in prelims
because of his job commitments, nal_ra had nowhere near the practice that the people he played in prelims.
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On October 06 2010 04:58 splints wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 22:47 ironchef wrote:On October 05 2010 21:53 papaz wrote:On October 05 2010 20:39 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 20:18 Ginastic wrote:
"- FlaSh is three years younger then me so I will be too old if I continue to play for another five years"
Why do SC players retire so early...? I could understand if it was football or any other sports, but SC you should be able to play much looonger Try imagining what years of practice 13 hours a day do to your wrists. Also, your reaction speed and multitasking abilities become progressively worse. If people can drive formula 1/play tennis in ATP tour/be fighter pilots and lots more at age of 25-35 I don't know how much better reaction skills SC needs so that you can't compete at age 25. Yeah... My guess is it's more of a social thing. As progressed as Korea is with eSports, I get the feeling most dont want to do it for too long and feel the need to get a "real job" or get married eventually. Even if its still eSport related, like analyst/coach/commentator, but not like as a player. Given the lifespan of games, and it still being a bit shaky industry,I think it's a reasonable position. Look at boxer... he still plays sc but you can see that he just can't cope with the micro/multitasks as well
..........speechless. this post = non sense
thats like if i said "hey, look at the morrow vs idra game on blistering sands @ IEM, idra CLEARLY can't macro/larvae inject/multi task anymore..." seriously, that was 1 ladder game you're referring to and he didnt even do too badly vs the one of the top macro zergs in the world
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If there was a skill-cap in SC2, how can you explain the fact that the most accomplished brood war players in the tournament were the ones that did the best. Tester has a televised match win over Flash, Fruitdealer has a televised match win over Nada, and Rainbow has a televised match win over Bisu.
Coincidence that these 3 made the top 4? As for people saying "Rainbow was bad in the finals durr hurr", please shut the fuck up, that's the nature of starcraft. When Jaedong loses to flash first tank/sci vessel push, he looks like a scrub. Or remember the first set of the MSL finals jaedong won over flash, when he opened mutas and just flat out killed all of flashes SCVS forcing a GG? Like literally, every single one of them. That's the nature of SC, the losing player always looks worse than he is.
Rainbow was 11-1 in his games prior to meeting a superior player in the finals, but he was still the second best player in the world at the time of the GSL, and he deserved to be there. Rainbow played well but FD played that much better. To cheapen FD's win does him a great disservice considering how amazing his strategies were on each map. Like how he took the gold base on Kulas instead of his natural so that he could defend the tank drop with spinecrawlers on one side and roachs on the other and thus circumvent that whole problem with hatch first builds on ledge maps. Or how he held of a fucking proxy rax reaper rush with a hatch first build by using a slow zergling ambush in the smoke. Absolutely brilliant play, cheapened by critics who don't know how starcraft works.
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On October 06 2010 05:16 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 21:30 Legace wrote:On October 05 2010 20:56 wiesel wrote:On October 05 2010 13:38 Dfgj wrote:On October 05 2010 08:32 Nade wrote:On October 05 2010 07:47 HeavyArmZ wrote:On October 05 2010 07:37 Nade wrote:On October 05 2010 07:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 05 2010 05:18 mustaju wrote:On October 05 2010 02:11 Trizz wrote:
Why don't people want JD to switch to SC2, or any progamer at all?
SC2 is THE future, I'd love to see JD switch asap.
Now with these new replay features, ingame cam, you can even drool more while watching his replays..
Hoping JD will stay Zerg, he'd probably bring some new creative play to the race.
I simply can't wait, I wish it was tomorrow. It might be a bleak future, with stupid micro, even more stupid gimmicks and graphics that make it hard to understand what's even going on. It's a future where area denial has become a battle of high ground vs. no high ground, not spider mines, lurkers, reavers or split strike forces. Massive blobs roam the battlefield, and harassment becomes harder to do since less bases are needed to get a critical mass of units out. Whereas WCG, the least important major BW tourney, with only 3 koreans, a "stale game", produced epic matches where a single scarab shot was way more exciting than I envision SC2 to go at this moment. If you don't believe me, watch JD vs. Flash game 2, or Kal vs. Flash game 1. I can't imagine this sort of greatness in any other game. And yet I see it ripped away for promises of an uncertain future. Sure, people like SC2, and I'm sure they have their reasons. But there isn't a shortage of players in the SC2 scene, and I don't understand why people feel the need for BW to be ripped apart. It would be a shame if SC2 crashes and burns, and there is no BW to pick up the pieces and give E-sports another try with a new game. The ONLY reason scarabs are interesting at all is because you never know if they are going to actually work. The odd bug of scarabs increased spectator tension at the cost of gameplay. Everything else in BW is equally exciting in SC2. The only reason you see this amazing BW greatness is because your eyes are all gleaming for BW nostalgia. The only thing i find SC2 interesting as a viewer are cutesy built by players You have obviously not watched the most recent GSL matches. Or even older ones, Cool vs OgsToP was imho even better than the finals (where Rainbow insisted too much on one strat), the semi-finals had some interesting stuff too. I've said it to pretty much every BW fanboy - BW hasn't developed and reached its top notch state of the art strategy game in 2 months, I don't care how many "pros" existed back then and how many "pros" there are now (trying to unveil all the possible bos), things will take some time. Don't go condemning the game just because it's not 100% a copy of the original. Plus, it's not looking grim at all with the latest tournies I've watched. I'd love to see how guys like JD and Flash would fare in SC 2, I wonder if they'd dominate as hard as the current sc1 progamers are. what???? i pretty much follow most of the matches in GSL, especially from the top 32 onwards. we are talking about spectator view, the only thing decent i could have think of is baneling bomb, and mass ultralisk against thor is so spectacular, NOT. and stop the BW fan boy shit. the 'wow' factor in the games are too little for the game to be nice for viewing pleasure. There is a cap in sc2 skill level, with all the features we have, >12 unit per group i won't be surprise if boxer nada didn't even made it to the final or get eliminated by no namers. The difference between a good and pro player margin gap is much more closer then it is in brood war. I found the finals to be on-par with BW in terms of spectator appeal. Players had multitask, didn't just 1a with a giant ball, and there were exciting battles with flanks/micro. You can't compare the greatest BW games to it, but the GSL final was better than quite a BW finals imo, and that's a good start.. Uhm i found the GSL to be the most boring finals i probably ever watched in e-sport history in my last 10 years. I don't watch much sc2 but when you find these games exciting i don't know honestly what to say. From my spectator experience there was really nothing exciting at all in all these GSL games. The finals were not that exciting to be frank. It was way to onesided and Fruitseller made ITR look extremely bad on a few occasions. Both Fruitsellers and ITR's quarter and semifinals were much better. In general finals games tend to be less exciting, lots of cheesing, all ins, risky stuff that doesn't work out. It's not just in starcraft or starcraft 2 (Although i think this final was at least better than flash vs effort osl final) but I can definitely see huge improvements being made every week in sc2. Also, because of the whole counter system, it seems like the number of strategies that are possible will never end in a glorious rock -> paper -> sisscor battle. If rock gets too popular, use paper, etc etc. Which makes scouting insanely more important than ever. Although many progamers will succeed in sc2, they will have to adapt to the huge mental game that goes on in sc2. Information will become more valuable than units, expansion timings will have to be perfected. Also with the addition of easy drop tech, nydus, blink stalkers, warpgates, proxy racks, players will be constantly on the defense for harass, while trying to get any lead that they can manage. I think jaedong has what it takes to make sc2 better and brighter and look foward to they day he comes over.
Blasphemy
Flash v Effort finals was one of the best things I've ever seen live. I am not joking.
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Blasphemy
Flash v Effort finals was one of the best things I've ever seen live. I am not joking.
He's just mad because Flash lost. I thought it was awesome too, one of the biggest upsets in any event ever, and it was because Effort figured out how to abuse Flash's greedy openings. Awesome series.
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Awwwwwwwwwwsssooooooooommmeeeeeeee! Lee Jae Dong FIGHTING!
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On October 04 2010 07:02 KristianJS wrote:Guys, please realize he said he'll switch WHEN SC2 becomes bigger. He didn't say it already is and that he's switching right now as a result. At least I think so 
I don't see how it can get bigger than $85,000 
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JaeDong making the switch would be awesome but sad for the BW scene. Acti-Blizz is hurrying way too much in trying to kill off BW.
Balance problems and lack of diversity compared to SC:BW definitely take away a lot of appeal from SC2 as it stands. SC:BW fans totally have the right to complain about Activision Blizzard forcibly trying to kill off SC:BW scene with their new flagship product which is still far from finished instead of a smooth transition. SC:BW is still far superior as a spectator sport for obvious reasons. IMHO this does far more damage than good for the current state of e-sports.
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On October 06 2010 22:09 Fungee wrote:
JaeDong making the switch would be awesome but sad for the BW scene. Acti-Blizz is hurrying way too much in trying to kill off BW.
Balance problems and lack of diversity compared to SC:BW definitely take away a lot of appeal from SC2 as it stands. SC:BW fans totally have the right to complain about Activision Blizzard forcibly trying to kill off SC:BW scene with their new flagship product which is still far from finished instead of a smooth transition. SC:BW is still far superior as a spectator sport for obvious reasons. IMHO this does far more damage than good for the current state of e-sports.
Really? They're in a hurry? So please recite for me when brood war was released and what you consider to be fast. Yeah no they seriously pushed sc2 release didn't they. BW never even saw it coming, it was so young.
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who is this jaedong guy anyway?
User was warned for this post
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WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE??? there will be no way for blizzard to balance a game when the skill gap is that large
imagine flash vs jaedong GSLs3 finals
*instant boner*
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So, its time to raise the SCII international reputation in fomos.kr and korean websites to get jaedong motivated hehe.
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He'll move when Sc2 gets bigger , or when Sc1 gets smaller , both will most likely happen , with the latter one coming first.
In anything , money talks , in this case sponsor talks , Sc2 looks pretty good despite just starting off.
Nada already abandoned the sinking Sc1 ship , after a certain amount of time corporate sponsors start abandoning ship , then the ship sinks. And we'll most probably see Jaedong vs Flash in a GSL final lol. It's an evitable fate. The only thing is when that will actually happen.
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So what's the next big SC1 tournament and what are the prize payouts?
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On October 06 2010 08:55 jdr_ wrote:
As for people saying "Rainbow was bad in the finals durr hurr", please shut the fuck up, that's the nature of starcraft. When Jaedong loses to flash first tank/sci vessel push, he looks like a scrub. Or remember the first set of the MSL finals jaedong won over flash, when he opened mutas and just flat out killed all of flashes SCVS forcing a GG? Like literally, every single one of them. That's the nature of SC, the losing player always looks worse than he is.
Word...
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EPT
