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On May 08 2009 10:10 DeCoup wrote:
1. Did I miss an ability here? I've never heard of an emergency teleport
2. Gateways don't teleport existing units. The create them at their location. The way it is described may have confused you. It's like how all Protoss buildings are teleported to their location. They are pre-constructed then ported to the location your workers choose.
In short:
To Heal Protoss units/buildings.. kill it and build another one.
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On May 08 2009 10:55 Zato-1 wrote:
Stop it with the stupid 'omg Protoss are OP they have so much HP' comments, you just make yourself look bad. It's fine if you don't like Protoss, just don't base your arguments around the assumption that they're overpowered when they quite clearly aren't in SC1, at least in high level play.
Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. People on here worry WAY to much about balance for a game that they have never even played. The game will be balanced. Period. And if the only thing you can find fault with for Protoss Healing is that it would make them overpowered well then maybe thats a sign this idea deserves more attention then your giving it.
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Simply because it might not be unbalanced isn't by itself reason to add change something.
Aside from Protoss having valuable units (with a plethora of longevity skills already, as you've mentioned-- 2 of 5 of those that you mentioned being related to shields), what rationale outside of 'would be fun' (which is very much a subjective matter, mind, and as such sort of a shitty reason) is there to give this to the Protoss?
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dudes, don't tell others what is imba and what is not. Obviously anyone hasn't played that much starcraft2 to find all the possible counters. sc2 will propably need years of patching to make it balanced but isn't it too early to whine yet?
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On May 08 2009 11:29 Yenzilla wrote:
what rationale outside of 'would be fun' (which is very much a subjective matter, mind, and as such sort of a shitty reason) is there to give this to the Protoss?
I disagree on this point. 'Fun' is actually a big deal when it comes to designing a game. However, it's also subjective, as you pointed out. What's fun for one person can be utterly frustrating for another. Would restoring HP to Protoss units be considered, on the whole, fun? One would think a thread like this would serve to gauge people's reactions to this concept, but everyone seems too stuck on the balance implications of the concept to think of whether it would make the game, on the whole, more fun.
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Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned...
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On May 08 2009 13:48 SoleSteeler wrote:
Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned...
In SC1 at least, HP is generally much more valuable than Shields. Zealots have 100 HP and 60 Shields, so by those numbers you'd expect the Zealots' Shields to be 60% as valuable as their HP. Assuming no upgrades, however, it takes a Zergling 12 hits to take down the shields vs. 25 hits to take down the HP- the Shields are only 48% as valuable as the HP in this case, due to Shields not counting armor. It takes a hydra 6 hits to take down a Zealot's shields, vs. 23 hits to take down its HP; in this case, the Shields are 26% as valuable as the HP, because of a combination of not counting armor and taking full damage from explosive attacks.
The sole exception to this, of course, is plague. Zealots and Carriers getting plagued is a big deal, while an Archon getting plagued makes the Protoss player chuckle.
Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot? Just because it works like that in SC1 doesn't mean it should continue to work like that in SC2; the whole idea for the new game is to take good things from the previous one, add new stuff, and make it better. So far, I haven't seen a single convincing reason as to why Protoss shouldn't be able to restore lost HP, other than inertia; it worked in SC1, so don't change it for SC2. All I can say about inertia is- look how that worked for the Medic.
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On May 08 2009 14:17 Zato-1 wrote:Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot?
This kind of rationale only truly makes sense if you consider HP and shields to be mutually exclusive, though. I would argue that, for the Protoss, their 'health' (in the sense applied to the Zerg and the Terran) is the combination of their shields and their actual health points, rather than just the raw hp number. After all, they're (for the most part) functionally equivalent.
In this particular case, I don't believe the logic that applies to the Terrans and the Zerg (in terms of health) should apply to the Protoss. The shield mechanic (that is unique to the race) makes comparing straight hp values between the races flawed, since it acts more or less as simply a renamed, second health bar.
Of course, this means that while the other races have access to full healing, Protoss are limited to regenerating only a percentage of their total health (albeit, a faster one, I believe, with the new changes to shield regen). However, I don't believe the race is at all put at a disadvantage as a result of this, simply because of the extra benefits attached the shields (such as not being as severely crippled by plague).
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On May 08 2009 14:17 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 13:48 SoleSteeler wrote:
Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned... In SC1 at least, HP is generally much more valuable than Shields. Zealots have 100 HP and 60 Shields, so by those numbers you'd expect the Zealots' Shields to be 60% as valuable as their HP. Assuming no upgrades, however, it takes a Zergling 12 hits to take down the shields vs. 25 hits to take down the HP- the Shields are only 48% as valuable as the HP in this case, due to Shields not counting armor. It takes a hydra 6 hits to take down a Zealot's shields, vs. 23 hits to take down its HP; in this case, the Shields are 26% as valuable as the HP, because of a combination of not counting armor and taking full damage from explosive attacks. The sole exception to this, of course, is plague. Zealots and Carriers getting plagued is a big deal, while an Archon getting plagued makes the Protoss player chuckle. Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot? Just because it works like that in SC1 doesn't mean it should continue to work like that in SC2; the whole idea for the new game is to take good things from the previous one, add new stuff, and make it better. So far, I haven't seen a single convincing reason as to why Protoss shouldn't be able to restore lost HP, other than inertia; it worked in SC1, so don't change it for SC2. All I can say about inertia is- look how that worked for the Medic.
they can't heal because Protoss has somewhat easy acces to really powerful units, but you can beat them down cradually. you rarely see carriers go down after a single fight, they are damaged several times before dying. and softening up dragons and zealots with mines and plague before a battle can be pivotal.
Giving Protoss heal just like that changes how you play them and how you play against them, and not for the better imho.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sorry, this idea just isn't worth fighting for...
+jetpack?
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EPT
