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United States4471 Posts
On May 16 2009 13:41 HonestTea wrote:That's not what I would call "putting his hand on top of Gasol's head and shaking it" It's things like this that form (or don't form) camraderie and chemistry You think Billups would ever do anything like that? And yes, sometimes I drunk dial Chauncey, but that's not the point.
That's exactly what I was referring to, and I still see it as an attempt to get Gasol to wake up and play like he's in the playoffs and not the offseason. Pau was letting Scola kill him in the post and was playing like crap on offense. He was showing no passion, energy or any sense of urgency. Kobe was doing the right thing to try to communicate that sense of urgency and try to get Pau to play with some energy.
The fact that Billups may or may not do such a thing, doesn't define whether or not it's something a player should do to try to motivate his teammates.
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United States4471 Posts
On May 16 2009 19:12 eStoniaNBoY wrote:
I meant that the games were a lot more physical in a way that players often got into this kind of a situations and overheated during games. There were tough fouls and physical plays ( I`m not talking about punching or bullying your teammates).
Maybe Kobe should do such things in the locker room BEFORE the game starts so they would not be down 1-17 in the first quarter and not elbow or shove his teammates when "the train has already left the station" in front of the cameras?
Not nice to shove a player who was given to you as a present by your GM and who propelled Lakers being the team that they are right now.
You're really overreacting way too much to that Kobe-Gasol incident. Players in local basketball leagues to that stuff to each other during games to fire each other up. What he did was in no way exceptional or inappropriate. Complain all you want about the other ways he chooses to lead his team, but going back to that head-shake over and over doesn't support your arguments at all.
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United States4471 Posts
On May 16 2009 18:10 HonestTea wrote:
You can't justify Kobe's actions by saying "he wants to win"
Every great player "wants to win"
It's the manner in which they present their leadership that's important.
Either their leadership is good, and it brings out the best from their teammates,
Or their methods are bad, and it makes their teammates play worse than they can.
You can defend Kobe's will to win,
But you have to judge his actions in terms of results.
Do the Lakers give their all for Kobe?
All I can say is that the Lakers are pretty inconsistent and Kobe isn't showing any real ability to bring a calmness and consistency to his squad.
How far do you want to go for a guy who just shoved you in the head in front of the whole crowd? It would be one thing if it was behind closed doors, in the locker room or in practice.
MJ punching Steve Kerr doesn't justify it either. It was bad leadership when MJ did it, and it's bad leadership if Kobe does it.
There are plenty of examples of good leadership in the NBA that doesn't involve antagonizing your own teammates. Tim Duncan. Chauncey Billups. LeBron.
And many more in other sports.
What Kobe did was just plain bad leadership.
Yes, it's very questionable how both Kobe and Jordan chose to motivate/lead their teams, i.e. terrorizing/yelling/being demanding/getting in your face/etc., but the problem I have is that people talk about Kobe doing things like this like he's the only one who ever has. If you read articles on many of the most successful team sport athletes, and those who were considered leaders for their teams, and you'll inevitably find examples of situations where they go overboard. The fact is that the best competitors are the ones who HATE to lose, and those people will generally react very poorly to losing.
Are some people like Duncan able to channel that energy in a more productive, less confrontational manner? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's the only effective way to lead. Players are who they are, they all have unique personalities and ways to approach different situations. Who's to say that one way is definitively better than the other?
Jordan led his team in almost the identical manner that Kobe tries to lead his team (this is confirmed by many people who either played with or coached Jordan in the past), and yet he is almost never criticized for it simply because his teams succeeded. The only reason why Kobe is being criticized now is because the Lakers are underperforming, and because people all want to hate Kobe anyway. If the Lakers were winning and playing well, his leadership (even if exactly the same) would not be getting criticized.
The bottom line is that I personally agree that the way Jordan and Kobe lead is not the best way to get people to play at their best, but I think people need to realize that what Kobe is doing was done by the player almost everyone views as the perfect basketball player and leader. To criticize one without criticizing the other is to ignore the facts and contradict yourself. HonestTea gets that, but many, many others do not.
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I think you have to do whatever you have to do to make your team mates raise the bar.
However as a leader it's your job to assess what method works best for that. But you will get frustrated being the best player on your team and having people not have the same focus and mentality as you to be a champion.
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On May 16 2009 16:02 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 15:45 eStoniaNBoY wrote:
elbowing sasha, beefing with bynum etc. known in the lakerland.
You think it`s normal? I don`t think so. Michael Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face. He was just as bad as Kobe, the only difference is that in those days the media weren't all over the teams and it never got out (except when he punched Kerr). He's a winner, and he gets pissed when the people around him don't have the same passion. Does he show it in the wrong ways sometimes, yes... but that's just who he is.
It never got out? It ALL got out. There was a damn book about it.
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Lakers vs. Rockets has the same feeling as Team USA vs Spain.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 17 2009 10:38 Servolisk wrote:
Lakers vs. Rockets has the same feeling as Team USA vs Spain.
haha featuring gasol the traitor
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Did anybody else watching the Kobe Doin' Work? I was pretty disappointed by it, it only featured one game against the Spurs.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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just because jordan treated his team harshly doesn't mean its the right way to do it. maybe pippen/rodman and the rest of those guys responded better to it, they won so we know that much, but maybe jordan could've been more effective.
thing is with kobe it's a different set of players, guys like odom and gasol, are basically not confrontational type people, they aren't going to get fired up in response to criticism. they play best when everything is going fine, so what you don't do is try to get into their head and fire them up when the chips are down. it's not gonna happen cos they aren't emotional or aggressive guys. the only time i see them emotional is when something good happens, they don't get pissed when they lose, they just kinda go into a shell. i think if kobe used words and advice to gently try to get them going he'd be more effective because guys like this you need to play into a groove, you can't just flip the switch, and yeah it's a tough ask. no one is saying kobe isn't a good player and you can't question his effort, but he's not perfect and handling teammates is a weakness of his. when everything is going well he's actually much better, when he's talking to vujacic about where he should position himself, or clapping a timely cut by ariza, that's when the lakers fire on all cylinders, not when kobe rolls his eyes or stands around blaming his teammates for not moving when he's taken a 22ft fadeaway twice in the previous minute. you absolutely cannot underestimate the effect that not being in sync physiologically has on the lakers and it's been a consistent problem this playoffs and if they lose, thats why
also xeris i still absolutely don't believe kobe can stop lebron but i guess we'll have to wait and see. i did watch the lakers/cavs in cleveland. i really don't think you can use those games to judge what's going to happen in the finals, i do remember lebron taking some bad 3s and missing A LOT inside, i expect a much better showing from lebron in the finals, besides even if kobe is locking down lebron they can always go to the post and bang kobe up, or just screen him off, there's no way kobe guards lebron the entire game anyway it's just too demanding. i can just see no way for the lakers to stop lebron short of triple teaming him constantly and hoping gibson/west/williams/ilgauskas shoot like crap for a few weeks
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Would the Lakers put Kobe on LeBron? I'd just have LeBron pushing to the rim all day and tiring out Kobe for the Lakers offense.
Big mismatch imo.
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
The thing about Kobe is he probably thinks MJ-type leadership is the best leadership.
Kobe emulates everything about MJ, even including the held-fist-after-nailing-game-winner pose. MJ is Kobe's idol (there's a theory that this is because Kobe grew up in a foreign country).
Maybe MJ was lucky, in that his best teammates responeded positively to his leadership. Although he did come close to driving BJ Armstrong insane. Armstrong went so far as to read a book that profiled geniuses to try to understand MJ.
I think though that it's more likely that MJ was lucky in that his best teammates were much better than Kobe's current teammates. Pippen and Rodman vs Gasol and Odom is a no contest. (Fisher vs Harper? HA!)
One thing that is clear to me is that the Lakers don't have the chemistry of the Rockets, or the Cavs, or the Celtics, or the Nuggets, or even the Spurs and OKC Thunder. The body language, the mood after success, the mood during adversity, it's not top-level team chemistry.
But one thing we all must awknowledge as fans is that we really have no idea what it's like in the locker room.
Garrnett was a wonderful leader at Minny, while at the same time he made Big Baby cry on national TV
Lots of people complained about Chauncey's leadership (or lack thereof) while in Detroit, but now that he's gone the team just collapsed.
Who's the on-court leader of the Celtics now? Would you take Rajon Rondo for an answer?
... and on and on.
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United States4471 Posts
On May 17 2009 13:58 HonestTea wrote:But one thing we all must awknowledge as fans is that we really have no idea what it's like in the locker room.
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well, according to Kobe Doin Work, it's just Kobe making a bunch of weird comments
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it's well known that kobe really is a weird guy, not even an asshole so much as just a weirdo who isn't that amicable. if u read phil jacksons book it goes through it and there are many anecdotal titbits out there affirming it, ie: shaq
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
This is my little theory, but the essense of Kobe's aloofness is that he grew up as a black kid in Italy until middle school.
So he was an outsider in Italy. Not only that but he lived an upper middle class life being the son of a professonal athlete in Italy. (He was born while his father, Jellybean Bryant, was playing in Italy). Kobe grew up as a wealthy black American in Italy. That will give you identity issues.
Then he goes to high school in Phily, where he's a basketball star but he now has to learn how to be urban Black. This is my personal guess, but I don't think Kobe really indentified with urban black American culture. Maybe he tried to hard to become assimilated. But unlike a lot of NBA players, Kobe isn't really a "street" guy. So he's still an outsider - not only did he not grow up in the states, but he comes from a wealthy life in Europe to a prep school in Phily where he's a basketball star. More social outsider-ness
THEN he goes to the NBA straight from high school. So he doesn't go to college, just jumps straight to the pros.
When in Kobe Bryant's life has he ever found solace in being accepted? My theory is that his only social tools are basketball, which is part of the reason why his drive for hoop excellence is so determined.
That's my theory on Kobe's "wierdness"
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This is a bit silly imo. It's basically saying Kobe is a better basketballer, but doesn't play the PR game correctly and is therefore < than MJ.
Get you hand off it I say.
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To the article writer that is.
You're cool Ace.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/11sz2qd.gif)
