|
On December 27 2008 10:49 closed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 02:25 village_idiot wrote:
1.
A marine not under ensnare, not under stim, attacks a tank.
29 - 9 = 20
What are these numbers?
DUUUDE watch the reps. 9 is when the rine starts shooting 29 is when the tank dies. The 20 is how long it takes for the tank to die. In seconds.
On December 27 2008 04:29 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 04:11 village_idiot wrote:On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote:
There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points. Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose. Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on. Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11. Its either a lategame unit or you need a good BO to incorporate them into your midgame. Making them for a one time use is a waste of money. And yeah, you dont need more than 3, unless you want them to broodling tanks, which is actually a cheaper counter to mass tanks than guardians. But having less than 3? 1 ensnare isnt going to do much even if its almost perfect.
Yes, what I mean is you need the BO. To put it simply you need to time it so that the queen is present during lurkerling and early defiler. They reach their peak efficiency when your first defiler is out, but can also work when there is just lurkerling.
From the time you put down the queen's nest it takes 100 seconds to get a queen with 1 ensnare charge. Queen's nest takes 31 seconds to make, a queen is made in 31 seconds and it takes 33 seconds to get energy for ensnare (without the energy upgrade). It takes 100 seconds for a queen with 0 energy to get to 75 energy.
And about the amount of queens I'd say 3 or 4 is the right amount. If you attack during lurkerling you need to get as much marimedi ensnared as possible. If all the marines are ensnared then your ling life doubles, however that's not gonna happen. I'd say a well orchestrated double ensnare hits 75% of marines decreasing the overall damage output by around 40%. A good ensnare also catches the vessels.
And about the one time use part. I worded this badly in my post. What I really wanted to say is that if all the queens get irradiated, run out of energy or accidentally get themselves killed there is no reason to get more. Just prepare for the defiler phase with more lurkers. Like I said before, queens are there to compliment your army, if you don't have an army there isn't much they can do.
And I wouldn't touch broodling.
|
I wonder if it would be possible to rush queens, similar to CJ's zerg line up attempt at rushing hive and getting defiler. It actually worked out pretty well when Savior didn't completely butcher it. I don't know, just a thought. I'm sure a build can be created where a timing for a queen is viable, even if infrequently and on special occasions.
But really, lets be honest, protoss/terran are taking the game to such heights, pushing the limit of macro, timing, and multitasking- I really do think if Zergs want to keep up, they must push the limit as well, and I think that is queen/defiler.
|
the reason fantasy took time to move out is his scared that JD would shift to mutas right away and counter his base, he had only very few turrets defending his base. 2-3 queens plus ensnare research is like 400 gas, if you skipped muta and lessen scourges it wont really affect your lurker count. JD's advice is for zergs users to try it more often don't know why people just hate it.
|
Jaedong uses defiler's darkswarm while GGplay didn't have any so the video comparison is very bias for "ensnare."
-edit- ensnare
|
On December 27 2008 04:34 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote:
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
Nope. On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague.
wtf? plague makes mnm go 1hp. DID you know that or wtf are you talking about?
|
- Every 1 energy used by the medic heals 2hp, so it takes 5 energy to heal a marines 10hp loss from stim, not 2.
- The videos are incomparable, Jaedong has dark swarm in the second one, his lurkers are positioned better, and his army is stronger(in a way, no muta, more lurkerling, less mnm) against Fantasy then GGplays army is against Flash. ffs GGplay had like 2(?) zerglings in his game??? wtf?? Jaedong had like 20+ and he scourged Fantasys vessel.
- For when Jaedong flanks at the top in the 2nd example he has a high cliff terrain advantage for a bit, unlike GGplay had.
I would have just made a VOD of yourself doing the testing with equal numbers of units, equal terrain, etc, controlled variables on a UMS map with one scene that has a queen(s) and one that does not.
Don't get me wrong, I know what the outcome of the testing would be, the test with the queen would obviously be better but it would be more effective in showing so this way imo.
|
There's lots of bias in the comparison, d_so. And while I am not a great Terran player, there's some things to be said:
First off, something that no one seems to have said yet (the first attack): Fantasy fucked up his split.
Flash split horizontally while the zerg moved in units vertically, sandwiching the lurkers and at the same time avoiding the needles for massive marine loss. He also clustered his tanks in a tight group, which basically became a 1-hit-kill lurker machine.
Fantasy, on the other hand, charged vertically into the lurkers while they were already burrowed. He moved vertically right into the needles. I don't think I have to spell out what happens when you do that. Also his tanks were spread out, making them less effective against lurkers.
Fantasy messed up his micro, and as we all know Flash dominates with his tactics.
Up until now I've avoided the fact that this is overanalyzed to death. This small clip is not worth showing to encourage, promote, or even create a BO centered around queens because the trade off simply isn't there.
Here's a few sensible reasons:
I'm not sure if anyone recalls an older game where a Terran runs into the dark swarm and blocks out lurkers and lings with marines and medics, essentially killing everything around the dark swarm. By using ensnare, you'll just encourage terrans to inch towards the dark swarm and seal it off, because if you place the DS too far away, the Terran can run off -- even under ensnare.
Yes, there are penalties when using ensnare to marines and medics. Except for one thing: A lot of the games I've seen of pros and newbs alike, everyone shares one thing in common: Aim for the lurkers. Tanks aim for the lurkers, marines aim for the lurkers, ensnare or not they will die first which eliminates most of the issues. My own experience, as little as it may be in face of progamers, has been thus far: When lurkers are running up at you, take out as many of the near ones as you can. This has led me to win plenty. Ensnare won't change a lot of marines aiming for a single creature. It might slow them down, but the sheer numbers are there.
Someone forgot to mention the vessels and how every time a queen dies from a vessel you need another one, and you have to wait for it to replenish energy.
Hydras, Lurkers, and Defilers already cost enough gas. To allow yourself the benefit of actually being able to sustain a queen or two at all times, you'll need to spend more gas. Which means expanding. If you can do that, I don't think you should have too much trouble actually winning the match with or without queens.
Now lets settle this hysteria.
Conclusion:
Fantasy fucked up the split.
|
Fantasy can't micro MnM well. He is prolly one of the worst top 30 players in kespa with it. Without ensnare and plague, JD still can win the match easily. Fantasy MnM control can't lurker break anyway. This game is biased to the fact that queen's play is back. When he takes on better TvZ player with 2 gas hive and no mutas, he will be crushed immediately with nat break. JD is able to show this strat on the fact that both of them know fantasy's weakness. JD bought a lot of time due to fantasy's hesitation.
|
Rofl *tickle* on the above poster. 
|
You say that you lose them quickly to Irradiate. Now, which of these 3 would you rather have Irradiated? 1. 150 gas defilers 2. 125 gas Lurkers 3. 100 gas Queens? Queens have already done their job if they get irradiated.
|
I remember some guy did a lot of research on this topic. I saved the stats to a word document, but I don't have the original poster:
Zerg Units
-Lings 15% decrease
-Hydras 15% decrease
-Mutes 15% decrease (quite boring huh?)
-Ultras UNCHAGED!!!! Yes u read right. Ensnaire does not affect ultras.
-Cracklings 25% decrease
Terran Units
-Marines 17% decrease
-Stimmed Marines 23% decrease
-Golies UNCHANGED BOTH AIR AND GROUND. So next time dont be surprised if your lings get raped of ensnaired gollies
-Wraith 16% decrease
-BCs air 16%....BCs ground 4%. Pretty strange but i did this many times and the results were the same. Ensnaire has different effect on air and ground BCs attack!!!!
-Valks 18-20% decrease.
-I left firebats for the end because they are so hard to calculate. The trick is to have the tanks that take the damage at exactly the same angle towards firebats fire. If tanks are at 45 angle towards firebat fire they take more damage for some reason compared to 90 or 0 angle. Anyway, all things considered equal ensnaire decreases firebat rate by 29%. That's the largest decrease of all!!!
Toss Units
-Zealots 16% decrease
-Goons air 14%, Goons ground 11% decrease. Pretty strange again but that's what i found, period.
-Archon air 20%, Archon ground 3% decrease. What can i say people, hope u correct me.
-Dts 22% decrease
-Carriers UNCHANGED. When ensnairing carriers directly, fire rate doesn't decrease. Then i tried to ensnaire some interceptors. I didn't notice any change either. That gave me much grieve!!!!!
-Sairs 12% decrease
-Scout air 16% decrease. Forgot to test ground.
I'd like to add that guradian's decrease is about 11% while (to my great dissapointment) siege tanks and reavers are not affected.
|
Yeah, about the research that guy made... I have no idea how he got 23% decrease for stimmed marines. That is completely wrong.
Just check my reps. I made the testing so that misunderstandings like that would be corrected.
|
On December 27 2008 21:33 Shikyo wrote:
You say that you lose them quickly to Irradiate. Now, which of these 3 would you rather have Irradiated? 1. 150 gas defilers 2. 125 gas Lurkers 3. 100 gas Queens? Queens have already done their job if they get irradiated.
A queen is a better target than a lurker, despite being cheaper.
|
Norway28667 Posts
its obviously better to plague units than to ensnare units
but its ridiculously much easier to ensnare units than to plague units. if the queen was a ground unit it would be completely useless, if the defiler was an air unit it would be way beyond overpowered. you can't compare air-spellcasters to groundspellcasters, being airborne is such a big advantage in the first place..
|
On December 28 2008 02:08 Liquid`Drone wrote:
its obviously better to plague units than to ensnare units
but its ridiculously much easier to ensnare units than to plague units. if the queen was a ground unit it would be completely useless, if the defiler was an air unit it would be way beyond overpowered. you can't compare air-spellcasters to groundspellcasters, being airborne is such a big advantage in the first place..
Very true.
I think queens have a big advantage on clogged maps like SCR. You can cast ensnare when you want and where you want since queens can fly anywhere. On the other hand, on open maps like Andromeda marimedi has many different routes of escape when ensnared.
|
Yeah I've watched that game, it was amazing.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face:
progamer T-shirt = $50
progamer mouse = $100
Gaming PC = $1000
The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
|
On December 28 2008 04:33 SlickR12345 wrote:
Yeah I've watched that game, it was amazing.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face:
progamer T-shirt = $50
progamer mouse = $100
Gaming PC = $1000
The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
They're probably using $50 PCs. It's not like you need anything better to run SC.
|
Who the fuck are these new theorycrafting posters that shitty klazart VODS and SC2 brought onto our boards?
Do you not realize that to use queens you have to change the entire flow and timing of your game? The opportunity cost of queens, or anything at all, is all the holes you have to plug in your metagame. Or maybe you've never played SC and just jerk off to shitty english vods.
|
On December 28 2008 05:03 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2008 04:33 SlickR12345 wrote:
Yeah I've watched that game, it was amazing.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face:
progamer T-shirt = $50
progamer mouse = $100
Gaming PC = $1000
The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
They're probably using $50 PCs. It's not like you need anything better to run SC.
They use Quadcores for maximum stability or so
|
On December 28 2008 05:11 naventus wrote:
Who the fuck are these new theorycrafting posters that shitty klazart VODS and SC2 brought onto our boards?
Do you not realize that to use queens you have to change the entire flow and timing of your game? The opportunity cost of queens, or anything at all, is all the holes you have to plug in your metagame. Or maybe you've never played SC and just jerk off to shitty english vods.
hi, cunt.
I'm only theorycrafting based what I saw in an actual pro game. So it's not really theorycrafting anymore then, right? I assume you don't have the credibility to say you're better than a Korean progamer, right?
and I speak and understand Korean, so I don't need shitty ENglish VODs or brag about having KOrean friends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
