EPTOn December 27 2008 04:15 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Wow do sairs really take that long to kill a carrier?
Wow do sairs really take that long to kill a carrier?
Carriers got 4 base armor
Ensnare ZvT (Jaedong vs Fantasy Spoiler) - Page 2
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Hans-Titan
Denmark1711 Posts
Carriers got 4 base armor | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 27 2008 06:31 Piy wrote: I think people are reading too much into that one play - which would have owned fantasy with or without plague. Ensnare can work, but one cute play by Jaedong isnt a revolution. i don't think you can say it would have easily swung in Jaedong's favor without ensnare. there's also another fight a few minutes later where fantasy's marines can't run from the lurkers due to ensnare and then get owned | ||
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sqwert
United States781 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
i honestly dont see why people hate using queens other than the lame excuse of they're too hard to use. practice first like with everything THEN if its too hard use accordingly or not at all depending on ones play style | ||
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Underwhelmed
United States207 Posts
On December 27 2008 07:38 sqwert wrote: queens are too expensive to use You'll be getting a Queen's Nest for Hive sometime anyways, which makes them perhaps a little less expensive than Defilers. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On December 27 2008 01:49 d_so wrote: One thing us dota nubs seem to understand better than starcraft players is the importance of slow/stun. Starcraft has two stuns (lockdown and maelstrom) and one slow (ensnare). In DotA, these abilities would be used endlessly for their disable power. But Starcraft hardly uses any of them... for reasons that are at best irrational. In DotA, you control 1 guy. In StarCraft, you control your economy and micro huge armies all over the screen. It's actually counter-productive to waste apm on ensnare, maelstrom, and lockdown unless you're a pro gamer with 400apm. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 27 2008 06:21 d_so wrote: you can if you don't go mutas you should watch the clip You should watch the clip yourself. One of the reasons this worked so well was because jaedong completely tricked Fantasy with the fake mutas. Fantasy had 0 pressure at JD's nat because he was expecting the mutas to arrive, which is what murders lurker openings. Had jaedong just gone for a regular lurker build, he never would have been able to take that highground outside his base, and take his 3rd at the same time without being run over. He had 4 lurkers at the time his 3rd was morphing and Fantasy could have ran over the few units jd had protecting it. He was able to tech so fast while getting queens because he used so little gas on lurkers. If he ever tries this again he's going to have a much much harder time taking that 3rd as quickly as he did here, or he will be forced to tech much slower. | ||
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
On December 27 2008 01:49 d_so wrote: Flash vs GGplay, MST, December 6 2008 Jaedong vs Fantasy When I look at this video I have this feeling that Jaedong would still win without the ensnare! There are just so many zerglings... less lurkers actually. And better flank. Personally I believe that zergs should try to use queens more, but Im not really sure if they are viable in such situations. I think that a dark swarm would be better in the first replay. I consider queens a ZvP unit, used to combat corsairs - it helps the zerg to slow them down in order to capture them with scourge. Queens simply cost too much in ZvT - the player needs both a queen and the ensnare upgrade (I think it was 150/150). Blizzard will not balance the game, nor give queens the ensnare, because this way ZvP would be affected. Id rather see queens used as a tool to kill the command centers, but Im not really sure if they can be implement on maps without chokes. I still think that the terran would run away in that first replay - because the map was open (and zerg had no lings). On December 27 2008 02:25 village_idiot wrote: 1. A marine not under ensnare, not under stim, attacks a tank. 29 - 9 = 20 What are these numbers? | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On December 27 2008 04:34 .risingdragoon wrote: Nope. On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague. It comes earlier, costs half the mana, locks down stim instantly, and drops the attack damage instantly. This massively increases the zergling's effectiveness. With queen zerg essentially have swarm and plague separately from 2 units instead of just one. However zerg units still aren't effective independently. Queen just adds another burden on the setup that only works when all the zerg units are used together. That's why it needs to be a part of an overall strategy. 10 zerglings can kill 12 plagued marines, 10 zerglings cannot kill 12 ensnared marines. 1 lurker will kill many more plagued marines than ensnared. Ensnare may cost half the energy but defilers can very easily recharge theirs. Plague is instantaneous, ensnare takes a little time to hit its target and as such is less effective on moving units. Plague effectively renders medics useless and it is impossible for marines to stim again. Oh and how could i forget? the effects of plague outlast the spell. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On December 27 2008 10:49 closed wrote: When I look at this video I have this feeling that Jaedong would still win without the ensnare! There are just so many zerglings... less lurkers actually. And better flank. Personally I believe that zergs should try to use queens more, but Im not really sure if they are viable in such situations. I think that a dark swarm would be better in the first replay. I consider queens a ZvP unit, used to combat corsairs - it helps the zerg to slow them down in order to capture them with scourge. Queens simply cost too much in ZvT - the player needs both a queen and the ensnare upgrade (I think it was 150/150). Blizzard will not balance the game, nor give queens the ensnare, because this way ZvP would be affected. Id rather see queens used as a tool to kill the command centers, but Im not really sure if they can be implement on maps without chokes. I still think that the terran would run away in that first replay - because the map was open (and zerg had no lings). What are these numbers? Probably the seconds they take to die, but i really have no idea. However im sure that in the recommended threads there is at least one that discusses ensnare on attack rates/movements, if you have any doubts, it basically nulifies stim for marines. And makes non-stimmed marines even slower, their attack rate as well, though it doesnt decrease as much as if they were stimmed. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 27 2008 09:38 lgdDante wrote: You should watch the clip yourself. One of the reasons this worked so well was because jaedong completely tricked Fantasy with the fake mutas. Fantasy had 0 pressure at JD's nat because he was expecting the mutas to arrive, which is what murders lurker openings. Had jaedong just gone for a regular lurker build, he never would have been able to take that highground outside his base, and take his 3rd at the same time without being run over. He had 4 lurkers at the time his 3rd was morphing and Fantasy could have ran over the few units jd had protecting it. He was able to tech so fast while getting queens because he used so little gas on lurkers. If he ever tries this again he's going to have a much much harder time taking that 3rd as quickly as he did here, or he will be forced to tech much slower. what constitutes this "fake" mutas? The building of the spire? Sending two zerglings to attack a turret? jaedong did have his den before spire, as well as building the queens nest right after it. In that aspect, that was just fantasy's bad for not scouting well and being overly cautious. but yeah, fantasy's lack of pressure early game was a big part of why he got owned. still, it looks more like he saved gas not from skimping on lurkers but by not going muta or scourges. and at that point when you say he had 4, he actually had 6; 4 near the main, 2 at the right path. also, he got his third super slow, maybe not til the 11minute mark | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 27 2008 11:47 d_so wrote: what constitutes this "fake" mutas? The building of the spire? Sending two zerglings to attack a turret? jaedong did have his den before spire, as well as building the queens nest right after it. In that aspect, that was just fantasy's bad for not scouting well and being overly cautious. but yeah, fantasy's lack of pressure early game was a big part of why he got owned. still, it looks more like he saved gas not from skimping on lurkers but by not going muta or scourges. and at that point when you say he had 4, he actually had 6; 4 near the main, 2 at the right path. also, he got his third super slow, maybe not til the 11minute mark I think the fact that he had 9 larvae saved when his spire finished, his spire in an obvious spot, his hydras and den hidden, all constitue fake mutas. I don't understand your second point. He had lurkers up at the regular time for a lurker opening, but very very few. He made 4 lurkers at first and took had his 3rd morphing while only 4 lurkers were out. He also used 200 gas on the spire, and skipped early +1 carapace which is pretty standard with lurk openings these days. My whole point was that JD got away with this build so well because of the extent that he tricked fantasy. If Fantasy had any idea at all JD was opening lurkers, and JD tries to take his 3rd that quick with so few lurkers, he would have got rolled save for some amazing stop lurkers. Also, he took his 3rd 9:24 into the video, and the game starts 1:25 into the video. He took a 3rd at 8 minutes with no muta and 4 lurkers. Not to mention he had a defiler mound down less than 9 minutes into the game. JD did a great job killing scouting scvs before they got to his lurkers in some spots which hid his low lurker count. Honestly watching again it's unbelievable that 3rd didn't just get raped. | ||
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Elvin_vn
Vietnam2038 Posts
- Ensnare the back of the enemy group so that they can't retreat from lurker spines, combine with lurkers and flanking (mnm, zealots, etc) - Ensnare enemy air units so that they can't fly back (fast shuttles, corsairs, vessels, etc) Ensnare should just be used as an add-value to the battle. If two forces are almost equal, a good ensnare would tip the favor to the zerg. The problem with queen is that they can be countered easily if zerg invested too much on queens. | ||
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snapcrackle
United States568 Posts
1. As everyone has said defilers are that much better. - Spells aren't as effective (unless you wanna go kill corsairs/carriers). As someone previously stated, the benefits of plague are far more numerous. If a bunched MnM's are plagued they can be taken out with less micro and on a whole faster than ensnared MnM's. 2. For those saying that they can be used as a midway tech to defilers... it would just delay lurker count or hive tech by that much. Maybe 1 or 2 queens in the transition to defiler tech wouldn't hurt as much and may become popular, but in no ways will it become a norm spell caster as defilers/arbiters/science vessels/templars are. 3. To those who say pro's aren't using it because they aren't used to it... BLEH!!!! I'm sure every pro has tried to see more use to them but failed due to the suckiness of queens. My critique of Jaedong vs Fantasy. As amazing and effective as the queen use was, it was mostly jaedong's win due to fantasy's mistakes (if i can even call them that.. that probably isnt the best word choice). I'm a huge jaedong fan so don't get me wrong but the whole time fantasy played it way too safe. Had he attacked sooner he could have broken jaedongs contain. Also you could tell the build order by jaedong was so well planned out that it could have only worked in that game. Had fantasy delayed his push, jaedong would have been low on the expo count. Had fantasy pushed earlier he would have hurt jaedongs ground forces (and maybe taken out the first expansion) since no defiler was out (and yes the only reason that initial attack was as effective was due to the defiler). Scenario 1: Lets say Fantasy pushed earlier knowing the mutas were just a trick. Due to the fast hive tech being almost a failure nowadays (with 1 natural only), my assumption is jaedong would have gotten his natural taken out. If we are to assume Jaedong's micro was superb enough to handle that early push then it would not be due to queens as they wouldn't be out. Scenario 2: Fantasy decided not to attack the main but play the contain game. Jaedong having just starting his expo is behind econ wise. Fantasy could have taken 5 o'clock as it was just being built. Queens would have been less effective as Fantasy's forces would still be huge. It would have been a repeat similar to the hyvaa game (yes i know ultras were used there but sooner or later jaedong would've abandoned queens and stuck with defilers). All in all it was an interesting game that was well thought out by jaedong. It would be nice to see queens used but i am sorry to say we will not see them being the norm caster unit for zerg EVER (unless a change is made). But as stated everything fell into jaedong's grasp. Fantasy was playing a typical mnm build not expecting that from jaedong. To best compare it, it would be like saying proxy reaver's worked soooo well in this game so therefore it will be used a lot more often which is not the case. Jaedong's build had many holes that could be easily exploited | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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