In this post I want to emphasize Ensnare's effect on movespeed in ZvT, using jaedong vs fantasy as a case study.
One thing us dota nubs seem to understand better than starcraft players is the importance of slow/stun. Starcraft has two stuns (lockdown and maelstrom) and one slow (ensnare). In DotA, these abilities would be used endlessly for their disable power. But Starcraft hardly uses any of them... for reasons that are at best irrational.
In ZvT, there are several things to consider:
1.) Lurkers are one of two AoE units you have, and by far the most effective: however, their attack is slow and therefore easily dodged.
2.) Darkswarm is powerful but dodgeable. Keeping the enemy contained near the darkswarm makes it far more effective.
3.) Because Terran AoE is imba (tank splash, mines, firebats, valkyries) you HAVE to flank.
4.) Terran MnM have the ability to increase movespeed and attackspeed for 2 mana (the cost of a medic to heal the 10 hp loss). But the most relevant in ZvT is the movespeed, since it allows Terrans to dodge the lurkers and retreat from the darkswarm.
Ensnare solves all this by...
1.) increasing the ability of Lurkers to strike hits.
2.) keeping the opposing forces from running away from darkswarm.
3.) clumping Terran forces so they are easier to flank.
4.) And it does this by eliminating the movespeed bonus from stimpack, something you HAVE to do given how costeffective stimpack is for Terran and that they still get the attack speed bonus from it.
Compare the following two clips:
Flash vs GGplay, MST, December 6 2008
In this clip, Flash's marine split allows him to avoid the flank and incur minimal losses. Flash goes on to crush GGplay
Jaedong vs Fantasy
Fantasy tries to do the same thing from the incoming flank, but ensnare stops him.
notes on the clip:
1.) The initial darkswarm forces terran to reposition its troops.
2.) Ensnare slows down the repositioning process. This is quickly followed by Zerg's flank.
3.) The slowed retreat away from the darkswarm gives lurkers time to be well positioned. Terran's MnM have no chance to avoid the lurker spikes.
4.) Important ancillary effect: Medics, also being slowed, cannot heal effectively because they cannot catch up to the units that are damaged.
5.) Science vessels cannot avoid the scourge, tanks have trouble repositioning.
maybe this was a best case scenario usage of ensnare... but it still demonstrates the awesome power of slowing your opponent in zvt. in short: Zergs, use ensnare!
disable: stasis i think the reason lockdown doesn't often see use is pretty rational
on topic: i think ensnare is good, it's just annoying waiting for the mana when you're so used to consuming also, it's gonna be used to attack a retreating terran army, not to engage a (sieged) terran ball, which usually happens after you get defilers (JD kinda rushed hive to get the queen/defiler out in time to stop the push)
plus, i have no more hotkeys to put my queens! >_<
This has been known for such a long time. The reason why most people don't use it, or even shouldn't, was explained by Lee Jae Dong himself.
Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
If it is complicated for JaeDong, what makes you think standard class players can use it? Obviously, some can, but the majority of them can barely handle it, if at all.
On December 27 2008 02:19 Archaic wrote:If it is complicated for JaeDong, what makes you think standard class players can use it? Obviously, some can, but the majority of them can barely handle it, if at all.
That's exactly what I think. Until I get perfect macro, I have a much better use for my APM than a queen. However, I'm still going to give it a shot.
my point is that even if it doesnt affect the attackspeed, the movespeed effect is more than enough to warrant the use. and i think the "it's too complicated to use" argument will slowly go away as queen use is incorporated into practice schemes. right now, it's more complicated for its newness than anything else.
There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
4) If you want queens to come into combat asap, you need the +50 energy boost.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Oh and another thing, queens are not hard to use, dont think that just because jaedong has problems getting used to them (after playing without them for 10 years), it will be impossible for you to handle them. Im sorry but thats being stupid.
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
1.) in the replay, jaedong sacrifices mutas and goes lurkerlings.
2.) point being is to use defilers in conjunctions with queens. defilers create the favorable fighting zone for zerg with dark swarm. queens keep them there with ensnare.
Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose.
Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on.
Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11.
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose.
Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on.
Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11.
Its either a lategame unit or you need a good BO to incorporate them into your midgame.
Making them for a one time use is a waste of money. And yeah, you dont need more than 3, unless you want them to broodling tanks, which is actually a cheaper counter to mass tanks than guardians. But having less than 3? 1 ensnare isnt going to do much even if its almost perfect.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
Nope.
On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague. It comes earlier, costs half the mana, locks down stim instantly, and drops the attack damage instantly. This massively increases the zergling's effectiveness. With queen zerg essentially have swarm and plague separately from 2 units instead of just one.
However zerg units still aren't effective independently. Queen just adds another burden on the setup that only works when all the zerg units are used together. That's why it needs to be a part of an overall strategy.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
EPT
