In this post I want to emphasize Ensnare's effect on movespeed in ZvT, using jaedong vs fantasy as a case study.
One thing us dota nubs seem to understand better than starcraft players is the importance of slow/stun. Starcraft has two stuns (lockdown and maelstrom) and one slow (ensnare). In DotA, these abilities would be used endlessly for their disable power. But Starcraft hardly uses any of them... for reasons that are at best irrational.
In ZvT, there are several things to consider:
1.) Lurkers are one of two AoE units you have, and by far the most effective: however, their attack is slow and therefore easily dodged.
2.) Darkswarm is powerful but dodgeable. Keeping the enemy contained near the darkswarm makes it far more effective.
3.) Because Terran AoE is imba (tank splash, mines, firebats, valkyries) you HAVE to flank.
4.) Terran MnM have the ability to increase movespeed and attackspeed for 2 mana (the cost of a medic to heal the 10 hp loss). But the most relevant in ZvT is the movespeed, since it allows Terrans to dodge the lurkers and retreat from the darkswarm.
Ensnare solves all this by...
1.) increasing the ability of Lurkers to strike hits.
2.) keeping the opposing forces from running away from darkswarm.
3.) clumping Terran forces so they are easier to flank.
4.) And it does this by eliminating the movespeed bonus from stimpack, something you HAVE to do given how costeffective stimpack is for Terran and that they still get the attack speed bonus from it.
Compare the following two clips:
Flash vs GGplay, MST, December 6 2008
In this clip, Flash's marine split allows him to avoid the flank and incur minimal losses. Flash goes on to crush GGplay
Jaedong vs Fantasy
Fantasy tries to do the same thing from the incoming flank, but ensnare stops him.
notes on the clip:
1.) The initial darkswarm forces terran to reposition its troops.
2.) Ensnare slows down the repositioning process. This is quickly followed by Zerg's flank.
3.) The slowed retreat away from the darkswarm gives lurkers time to be well positioned. Terran's MnM have no chance to avoid the lurker spikes.
4.) Important ancillary effect: Medics, also being slowed, cannot heal effectively because they cannot catch up to the units that are damaged.
5.) Science vessels cannot avoid the scourge, tanks have trouble repositioning.
maybe this was a best case scenario usage of ensnare... but it still demonstrates the awesome power of slowing your opponent in zvt. in short: Zergs, use ensnare!
disable: stasis i think the reason lockdown doesn't often see use is pretty rational
on topic: i think ensnare is good, it's just annoying waiting for the mana when you're so used to consuming also, it's gonna be used to attack a retreating terran army, not to engage a (sieged) terran ball, which usually happens after you get defilers (JD kinda rushed hive to get the queen/defiler out in time to stop the push)
plus, i have no more hotkeys to put my queens! >_<
This has been known for such a long time. The reason why most people don't use it, or even shouldn't, was explained by Lee Jae Dong himself.
Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
If it is complicated for JaeDong, what makes you think standard class players can use it? Obviously, some can, but the majority of them can barely handle it, if at all.
On December 27 2008 02:19 Archaic wrote:If it is complicated for JaeDong, what makes you think standard class players can use it? Obviously, some can, but the majority of them can barely handle it, if at all.
That's exactly what I think. Until I get perfect macro, I have a much better use for my APM than a queen. However, I'm still going to give it a shot.
my point is that even if it doesnt affect the attackspeed, the movespeed effect is more than enough to warrant the use. and i think the "it's too complicated to use" argument will slowly go away as queen use is incorporated into practice schemes. right now, it's more complicated for its newness than anything else.
There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
4) If you want queens to come into combat asap, you need the +50 energy boost.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Oh and another thing, queens are not hard to use, dont think that just because jaedong has problems getting used to them (after playing without them for 10 years), it will be impossible for you to handle them. Im sorry but thats being stupid.
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
1.) in the replay, jaedong sacrifices mutas and goes lurkerlings.
2.) point being is to use defilers in conjunctions with queens. defilers create the favorable fighting zone for zerg with dark swarm. queens keep them there with ensnare.
Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose.
Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on.
Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11.
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose.
Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on.
Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11.
Its either a lategame unit or you need a good BO to incorporate them into your midgame.
Making them for a one time use is a waste of money. And yeah, you dont need more than 3, unless you want them to broodling tanks, which is actually a cheaper counter to mass tanks than guardians. But having less than 3? 1 ensnare isnt going to do much even if its almost perfect.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
Nope.
On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague. It comes earlier, costs half the mana, locks down stim instantly, and drops the attack damage instantly. This massively increases the zergling's effectiveness. With queen zerg essentially have swarm and plague separately from 2 units instead of just one.
However zerg units still aren't effective independently. Queen just adds another burden on the setup that only works when all the zerg units are used together. That's why it needs to be a part of an overall strategy.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
I think people are reading too much into that one play - which would have owned fantasy with or without plague. Ensnare can work, but one cute play by Jaedong isnt a revolution.
On December 27 2008 06:31 Piy wrote: I think people are reading too much into that one play - which would have owned fantasy with or without plague. Ensnare can work, but one cute play by Jaedong isnt a revolution.
i don't think you can say it would have easily swung in Jaedong's favor without ensnare. there's also another fight a few minutes later where fantasy's marines can't run from the lurkers due to ensnare and then get owned
imo it'd be nice to have a variety of BOs without mutas and incorporate queen usage instead, but the big problem is to find a suitable timing for the spire for scourge, other than no mutas and possibly a slightly bigger terran ball i dont see much of a problem since Z should have more units than if he would've gone mutas as well.
i honestly dont see why people hate using queens other than the lame excuse of they're too hard to use. practice first like with everything THEN if its too hard use accordingly or not at all depending on ones play style
On December 27 2008 01:49 d_so wrote: One thing us dota nubs seem to understand better than starcraft players is the importance of slow/stun. Starcraft has two stuns (lockdown and maelstrom) and one slow (ensnare). In DotA, these abilities would be used endlessly for their disable power. But Starcraft hardly uses any of them... for reasons that are at best irrational.
In DotA, you control 1 guy. In StarCraft, you control your economy and micro huge armies all over the screen. It's actually counter-productive to waste apm on ensnare, maelstrom, and lockdown unless you're a pro gamer with 400apm.
Not really. Queen is one unit, how hard is it to micro effectively one really fast unit? Answer: It isn't. Maybe when your multitasking at an insane level like Jaedong, but at a Foreigner level, its actually pretty fuckin easy. Beyond that, ensare is AOE, and its AOE is so absolutely destructive to the terran army, that its well worth the little attention you must give it.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
you can if you don't go mutas
you should watch the clip
You should watch the clip yourself. One of the reasons this worked so well was because jaedong completely tricked Fantasy with the fake mutas. Fantasy had 0 pressure at JD's nat because he was expecting the mutas to arrive, which is what murders lurker openings. Had jaedong just gone for a regular lurker build, he never would have been able to take that highground outside his base, and take his 3rd at the same time without being run over. He had 4 lurkers at the time his 3rd was morphing and Fantasy could have ran over the few units jd had protecting it. He was able to tech so fast while getting queens because he used so little gas on lurkers.
If he ever tries this again he's going to have a much much harder time taking that 3rd as quickly as he did here, or he will be forced to tech much slower.
When I look at this video I have this feeling that Jaedong would still win without the ensnare! There are just so many zerglings... less lurkers actually. And better flank.
Personally I believe that zergs should try to use queens more, but Im not really sure if they are viable in such situations. I think that a dark swarm would be better in the first replay. I consider queens a ZvP unit, used to combat corsairs - it helps the zerg to slow them down in order to capture them with scourge. Queens simply cost too much in ZvT - the player needs both a queen and the ensnare upgrade (I think it was 150/150). Blizzard will not balance the game, nor give queens the ensnare, because this way ZvP would be affected. Id rather see queens used as a tool to kill the command centers, but Im not really sure if they can be implement on maps without chokes. I still think that the terran would run away in that first replay - because the map was open (and zerg had no lings).
On December 27 2008 02:25 village_idiot wrote: 1. A marine not under ensnare, not under stim, attacks a tank.
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
Nope.
On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague. It comes earlier, costs half the mana, locks down stim instantly, and drops the attack damage instantly. This massively increases the zergling's effectiveness. With queen zerg essentially have swarm and plague separately from 2 units instead of just one.
However zerg units still aren't effective independently. Queen just adds another burden on the setup that only works when all the zerg units are used together. That's why it needs to be a part of an overall strategy.
10 zerglings can kill 12 plagued marines, 10 zerglings cannot kill 12 ensnared marines. 1 lurker will kill many more plagued marines than ensnared. Ensnare may cost half the energy but defilers can very easily recharge theirs. Plague is instantaneous, ensnare takes a little time to hit its target and as such is less effective on moving units. Plague effectively renders medics useless and it is impossible for marines to stim again. Oh and how could i forget? the effects of plague outlast the spell.
Considering Flash had more marines and tanks AND didn't have to dodge a swarm, I would say the videos aren't really comparable. I think Fantasy was going to lose those units ensnare or not. However, Jaedong definitely did have less loses. That's a benefit.
When I look at this video I have this feeling that Jaedong would still win without the ensnare! There are just so many zerglings... less lurkers actually. And better flank.
Personally I believe that zergs should try to use queens more, but Im not really sure if they are viable in such situations. I think that a dark swarm would be better in the first replay. I consider queens a ZvP unit, used to combat corsairs - it helps the zerg to slow them down in order to capture them with scourge. Queens simply cost too much in ZvT - the player needs both a queen and the ensnare upgrade (I think it was 150/150). Blizzard will not balance the game, nor give queens the ensnare, because this way ZvP would be affected. Id rather see queens used as a tool to kill the command centers, but Im not really sure if they can be implement on maps without chokes. I still think that the terran would run away in that first replay - because the map was open (and zerg had no lings).
On December 27 2008 02:25 village_idiot wrote: 1. A marine not under ensnare, not under stim, attacks a tank.
29 - 9 = 20
What are these numbers?
Probably the seconds they take to die, but i really have no idea. However im sure that in the recommended threads there is at least one that discusses ensnare on attack rates/movements, if you have any doubts, it basically nulifies stim for marines. And makes non-stimmed marines even slower, their attack rate as well, though it doesnt decrease as much as if they were stimmed.
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
you can if you don't go mutas
you should watch the clip
You should watch the clip yourself. One of the reasons this worked so well was because jaedong completely tricked Fantasy with the fake mutas. Fantasy had 0 pressure at JD's nat because he was expecting the mutas to arrive, which is what murders lurker openings. Had jaedong just gone for a regular lurker build, he never would have been able to take that highground outside his base, and take his 3rd at the same time without being run over. He had 4 lurkers at the time his 3rd was morphing and Fantasy could have ran over the few units jd had protecting it. He was able to tech so fast while getting queens because he used so little gas on lurkers.
If he ever tries this again he's going to have a much much harder time taking that 3rd as quickly as he did here, or he will be forced to tech much slower.
what constitutes this "fake" mutas? The building of the spire? Sending two zerglings to attack a turret? jaedong did have his den before spire, as well as building the queens nest right after it. In that aspect, that was just fantasy's bad for not scouting well and being overly cautious. but yeah, fantasy's lack of pressure early game was a big part of why he got owned.
still, it looks more like he saved gas not from skimping on lurkers but by not going muta or scourges. and at that point when you say he had 4, he actually had 6; 4 near the main, 2 at the right path.
also, he got his third super slow, maybe not til the 11minute mark
On December 27 2008 04:01 Stimpacked wrote: Your going to have to tech to hive after getting your 3rd so why not make use of queens nest and pop 2-3 queens, you can make scourges all time and waste some of them why not on queens, only slight gas difference. Maybe in controlling them you mix them with the defilers so its easy to ensnare swarm. Wow TvZ would be much harder if every zerg tries this every game, another zerg revolution would be coming. lol
You cant go hive and queens at the same time from just 3 gasses.
you can if you don't go mutas
you should watch the clip
You should watch the clip yourself. One of the reasons this worked so well was because jaedong completely tricked Fantasy with the fake mutas. Fantasy had 0 pressure at JD's nat because he was expecting the mutas to arrive, which is what murders lurker openings. Had jaedong just gone for a regular lurker build, he never would have been able to take that highground outside his base, and take his 3rd at the same time without being run over. He had 4 lurkers at the time his 3rd was morphing and Fantasy could have ran over the few units jd had protecting it. He was able to tech so fast while getting queens because he used so little gas on lurkers.
If he ever tries this again he's going to have a much much harder time taking that 3rd as quickly as he did here, or he will be forced to tech much slower.
what constitutes this "fake" mutas? The building of the spire? Sending two zerglings to attack a turret? jaedong did have his den before spire, as well as building the queens nest right after it. In that aspect, that was just fantasy's bad for not scouting well and being overly cautious. but yeah, fantasy's lack of pressure early game was a big part of why he got owned.
still, it looks more like he saved gas not from skimping on lurkers but by not going muta or scourges. and at that point when you say he had 4, he actually had 6; 4 near the main, 2 at the right path.
also, he got his third super slow, maybe not til the 11minute mark
I think the fact that he had 9 larvae saved when his spire finished, his spire in an obvious spot, his hydras and den hidden, all constitue fake mutas.
I don't understand your second point. He had lurkers up at the regular time for a lurker opening, but very very few. He made 4 lurkers at first and took had his 3rd morphing while only 4 lurkers were out. He also used 200 gas on the spire, and skipped early +1 carapace which is pretty standard with lurk openings these days.
My whole point was that JD got away with this build so well because of the extent that he tricked fantasy. If Fantasy had any idea at all JD was opening lurkers, and JD tries to take his 3rd that quick with so few lurkers, he would have got rolled save for some amazing stop lurkers.
Also, he took his 3rd 9:24 into the video, and the game starts 1:25 into the video. He took a 3rd at 8 minutes with no muta and 4 lurkers. Not to mention he had a defiler mound down less than 9 minutes into the game. JD did a great job killing scouting scvs before they got to his lurkers in some spots which hid his low lurker count. Honestly watching again it's unbelievable that 3rd didn't just get raped.
The main use of ensnare is to prevent the enemy units from retreating: - Ensnare the back of the enemy group so that they can't retreat from lurker spines, combine with lurkers and flanking (mnm, zealots, etc) - Ensnare enemy air units so that they can't fly back (fast shuttles, corsairs, vessels, etc)
Ensnare should just be used as an add-value to the battle. If two forces are almost equal, a good ensnare would tip the favor to the zerg. The problem with queen is that they can be countered easily if zerg invested too much on queens.
To those who say queens are viable here is my 2 cents.
1. As everyone has said defilers are that much better. - Spells aren't as effective (unless you wanna go kill corsairs/carriers). As someone previously stated, the benefits of plague are far more numerous. If a bunched MnM's are plagued they can be taken out with less micro and on a whole faster than ensnared MnM's.
2. For those saying that they can be used as a midway tech to defilers... it would just delay lurker count or hive tech by that much. Maybe 1 or 2 queens in the transition to defiler tech wouldn't hurt as much and may become popular, but in no ways will it become a norm spell caster as defilers/arbiters/science vessels/templars are.
3. To those who say pro's aren't using it because they aren't used to it... BLEH!!!! I'm sure every pro has tried to see more use to them but failed due to the suckiness of queens.
My critique of Jaedong vs Fantasy. As amazing and effective as the queen use was, it was mostly jaedong's win due to fantasy's mistakes (if i can even call them that.. that probably isnt the best word choice). I'm a huge jaedong fan so don't get me wrong but the whole time fantasy played it way too safe. Had he attacked sooner he could have broken jaedongs contain. Also you could tell the build order by jaedong was so well planned out that it could have only worked in that game. Had fantasy delayed his push, jaedong would have been low on the expo count. Had fantasy pushed earlier he would have hurt jaedongs ground forces (and maybe taken out the first expansion) since no defiler was out (and yes the only reason that initial attack was as effective was due to the defiler).
Scenario 1: Lets say Fantasy pushed earlier knowing the mutas were just a trick.
Due to the fast hive tech being almost a failure nowadays (with 1 natural only), my assumption is jaedong would have gotten his natural taken out. If we are to assume Jaedong's micro was superb enough to handle that early push then it would not be due to queens as they wouldn't be out.
Scenario 2: Fantasy decided not to attack the main but play the contain game.
Jaedong having just starting his expo is behind econ wise. Fantasy could have taken 5 o'clock as it was just being built. Queens would have been less effective as Fantasy's forces would still be huge. It would have been a repeat similar to the hyvaa game (yes i know ultras were used there but sooner or later jaedong would've abandoned queens and stuck with defilers).
All in all it was an interesting game that was well thought out by jaedong. It would be nice to see queens used but i am sorry to say we will not see them being the norm caster unit for zerg EVER (unless a change is made). But as stated everything fell into jaedong's grasp. Fantasy was playing a typical mnm build not expecting that from jaedong. To best compare it, it would be like saying proxy reaver's worked soooo well in this game so therefore it will be used a lot more often which is not the case. Jaedong's build had many holes that could be easily exploited
I'll only good enough to respond to 3) but the reason the pros aren't using it is because they AREN'T used to it and because it's hard to micro all that stuff. 1 Control group of lurkers, 2 groups of lings, a defiler and a queen while flanking is HARD. Realistically though, 1-2 queens+ensnare would make a great support unit when you're on lurkerling but before consume.
On December 27 2008 03:28 Cloud wrote: There are some problems when implementing queens in a standard game. I will disregard the extra management and micro they require since that only needs practice.
1) You either need a good BO which already implements queens or you get it lategame when your econ is settled and you have an income from preferably 4 or more vespene geysers.
If you try to make them in the mid game after an standard build, say, 3 hatch muta into queen/lurker, its really gonna hurt your lurker count, which you dont want, (it would hurt you the same as rushing for defilers).
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
3) Another minor setback with queens are that unlike defilers their spells are not "instantaneous" if the queen gets killed while the little "bug" they throw to cast any of their spells is still in the air, the spell is cancelled. Which kinda hinders their usefulness vs long range units such as goliaths, dragoons, etc. When you wanna broodling the tanks or hts in between them.
Im not saying its bad to make queens, On the contrary, im trying to encourage players to make new BOs and/or incorporate queens in lategame. Just take into consideration the previous points.
Queen is not a lategame unit. I see it as a unit aiding lurkerling and early lurkling defiler play, allowing the player to execute "perfect" attacks thus giving the Zerg user an advantage. However, after the macro phase starts you must switch to standard play and not make any more queens. There is just too much going on, using queens lategame is just a waste of APM and will cause you to lose.
Also, I don't believe you should ever build more than 3 or 4 queens per game. They take too much valuable gas and you only need 2 of them for the desired effect in battle. If you see an opening during lurkerling play use your queens and be done with them, if you see an opening during defiler play use the queens and be done with them. They are only going to be less and less useful as the game goes on.
Regarding the queen casting bug. I have noticed parasite and broodling suffer from this bug. However Ensnare should not be affected. I think the game makes a check if the queen is alive when the pod hits the target with Parasite or Broodling, but not with Ensnare. I think with Ensnare the check is not made when the pod hits, but when the pod appears. It might have something to do with Ensnare being an AOE spell and the others being single target. Correct me if I'm wrong. If the Queen dies before the pod is out then obviously the spell will not work. Anyway, the queen should not die when casting against marimedi. Ensnare has a range of 9 and parasite 11.
Its either a lategame unit or you need a good BO to incorporate them into your midgame.
Making them for a one time use is a waste of money. And yeah, you dont need more than 3, unless you want them to broodling tanks, which is actually a cheaper counter to mass tanks than guardians. But having less than 3? 1 ensnare isnt going to do much even if its almost perfect.
Yes, what I mean is you need the BO. To put it simply you need to time it so that the queen is present during lurkerling and early defiler. They reach their peak efficiency when your first defiler is out, but can also work when there is just lurkerling.
From the time you put down the queen's nest it takes 100 seconds to get a queen with 1 ensnare charge. Queen's nest takes 31 seconds to make, a queen is made in 31 seconds and it takes 33 seconds to get energy for ensnare (without the energy upgrade). It takes 100 seconds for a queen with 0 energy to get to 75 energy.
And about the amount of queens I'd say 3 or 4 is the right amount. If you attack during lurkerling you need to get as much marimedi ensnared as possible. If all the marines are ensnared then your ling life doubles, however that's not gonna happen. I'd say a well orchestrated double ensnare hits 75% of marines decreasing the overall damage output by around 40%. A good ensnare also catches the vessels.
And about the one time use part. I worded this badly in my post. What I really wanted to say is that if all the queens get irradiated, run out of energy or accidentally get themselves killed there is no reason to get more. Just prepare for the defiler phase with more lurkers. Like I said before, queens are there to compliment your army, if you don't have an army there isn't much they can do.
I wonder if it would be possible to rush queens, similar to CJ's zerg line up attempt at rushing hive and getting defiler. It actually worked out pretty well when Savior didn't completely butcher it. I don't know, just a thought. I'm sure a build can be created where a timing for a queen is viable, even if infrequently and on special occasions.
But really, lets be honest, protoss/terran are taking the game to such heights, pushing the limit of macro, timing, and multitasking- I really do think if Zergs want to keep up, they must push the limit as well, and I think that is queen/defiler.
the reason fantasy took time to move out is his scared that JD would shift to mutas right away and counter his base, he had only very few turrets defending his base. 2-3 queens plus ensnare research is like 400 gas, if you skipped muta and lessen scourges it wont really affect your lurker count. JD's advice is for zergs users to try it more often don't know why people just hate it.
2) By the time lategame kicks in, defilers come into play, and they are actually better spellcasters than queens, plague is a much better spell than ensnare (on most units at least), not to mention dark swarm or consume which really means you gotta have at least 3 queens with you at all times so you dont have mana issues with them.
Nope.
On low hp stuff like MnM ensnare does even better than plague.
wtf? plague makes mnm go 1hp. DID you know that or wtf are you talking about?
- Every 1 energy used by the medic heals 2hp, so it takes 5 energy to heal a marines 10hp loss from stim, not 2. - The videos are incomparable, Jaedong has dark swarm in the second one, his lurkers are positioned better, and his army is stronger(in a way, no muta, more lurkerling, less mnm) against Fantasy then GGplays army is against Flash. ffs GGplay had like 2(?) zerglings in his game??? wtf?? Jaedong had like 20+ and he scourged Fantasys vessel. - For when Jaedong flanks at the top in the 2nd example he has a high cliff terrain advantage for a bit, unlike GGplay had.
I would have just made a VOD of yourself doing the testing with equal numbers of units, equal terrain, etc, controlled variables on a UMS map with one scene that has a queen(s) and one that does not.
Don't get me wrong, I know what the outcome of the testing would be, the test with the queen would obviously be better but it would be more effective in showing so this way imo.
There's lots of bias in the comparison, d_so. And while I am not a great Terran player, there's some things to be said:
First off, something that no one seems to have said yet (the first attack): Fantasy fucked up his split.
Flash split horizontally while the zerg moved in units vertically, sandwiching the lurkers and at the same time avoiding the needles for massive marine loss. He also clustered his tanks in a tight group, which basically became a 1-hit-kill lurker machine.
Fantasy, on the other hand, charged vertically into the lurkers while they were already burrowed. He moved vertically right into the needles. I don't think I have to spell out what happens when you do that. Also his tanks were spread out, making them less effective against lurkers.
Fantasy messed up his micro, and as we all know Flash dominates with his tactics.
Up until now I've avoided the fact that this is overanalyzed to death. This small clip is not worth showing to encourage, promote, or even create a BO centered around queens because the trade off simply isn't there.
Here's a few sensible reasons:
I'm not sure if anyone recalls an older game where a Terran runs into the dark swarm and blocks out lurkers and lings with marines and medics, essentially killing everything around the dark swarm. By using ensnare, you'll just encourage terrans to inch towards the dark swarm and seal it off, because if you place the DS too far away, the Terran can run off -- even under ensnare.
Yes, there are penalties when using ensnare to marines and medics. Except for one thing: A lot of the games I've seen of pros and newbs alike, everyone shares one thing in common: Aim for the lurkers. Tanks aim for the lurkers, marines aim for the lurkers, ensnare or not they will die first which eliminates most of the issues. My own experience, as little as it may be in face of progamers, has been thus far: When lurkers are running up at you, take out as many of the near ones as you can. This has led me to win plenty. Ensnare won't change a lot of marines aiming for a single creature. It might slow them down, but the sheer numbers are there.
Someone forgot to mention the vessels and how every time a queen dies from a vessel you need another one, and you have to wait for it to replenish energy.
Hydras, Lurkers, and Defilers already cost enough gas. To allow yourself the benefit of actually being able to sustain a queen or two at all times, you'll need to spend more gas. Which means expanding. If you can do that, I don't think you should have too much trouble actually winning the match with or without queens.
Fantasy can't micro MnM well. He is prolly one of the worst top 30 players in kespa with it. Without ensnare and plague, JD still can win the match easily. Fantasy MnM control can't lurker break anyway. This game is biased to the fact that queen's play is back. When he takes on better TvZ player with 2 gas hive and no mutas, he will be crushed immediately with nat break. JD is able to show this strat on the fact that both of them know fantasy's weakness. JD bought a lot of time due to fantasy's hesitation.
You say that you lose them quickly to Irradiate. Now, which of these 3 would you rather have Irradiated? 1. 150 gas defilers 2. 125 gas Lurkers 3. 100 gas Queens? Queens have already done their job if they get irradiated.
I remember some guy did a lot of research on this topic. I saved the stats to a word document, but I don't have the original poster:
Zerg Units -Lings 15% decrease -Hydras 15% decrease -Mutes 15% decrease (quite boring huh?) -Ultras UNCHAGED!!!! Yes u read right. Ensnaire does not affect ultras. -Cracklings 25% decrease
Terran Units -Marines 17% decrease -Stimmed Marines 23% decrease -Golies UNCHANGED BOTH AIR AND GROUND. So next time dont be surprised if your lings get raped of ensnaired gollies -Wraith 16% decrease -BCs air 16%....BCs ground 4%. Pretty strange but i did this many times and the results were the same. Ensnaire has different effect on air and ground BCs attack!!!! -Valks 18-20% decrease.
-I left firebats for the end because they are so hard to calculate. The trick is to have the tanks that take the damage at exactly the same angle towards firebats fire. If tanks are at 45 angle towards firebat fire they take more damage for some reason compared to 90 or 0 angle. Anyway, all things considered equal ensnaire decreases firebat rate by 29%. That's the largest decrease of all!!!
Toss Units -Zealots 16% decrease -Goons air 14%, Goons ground 11% decrease. Pretty strange again but that's what i found, period. -Archon air 20%, Archon ground 3% decrease. What can i say people, hope u correct me. -Dts 22% decrease -Carriers UNCHANGED. When ensnairing carriers directly, fire rate doesn't decrease. Then i tried to ensnaire some interceptors. I didn't notice any change either. That gave me much grieve!!!!! -Sairs 12% decrease -Scout air 16% decrease. Forgot to test ground.
I'd like to add that guradian's decrease is about 11% while (to my great dissapointment) siege tanks and reavers are not affected.
On December 27 2008 21:33 Shikyo wrote: You say that you lose them quickly to Irradiate. Now, which of these 3 would you rather have Irradiated? 1. 150 gas defilers 2. 125 gas Lurkers 3. 100 gas Queens? Queens have already done their job if they get irradiated.
A queen is a better target than a lurker, despite being cheaper.
its obviously better to plague units than to ensnare units but its ridiculously much easier to ensnare units than to plague units. if the queen was a ground unit it would be completely useless, if the defiler was an air unit it would be way beyond overpowered. you can't compare air-spellcasters to groundspellcasters, being airborne is such a big advantage in the first place..
On December 28 2008 02:08 Liquid`Drone wrote: its obviously better to plague units than to ensnare units but its ridiculously much easier to ensnare units than to plague units. if the queen was a ground unit it would be completely useless, if the defiler was an air unit it would be way beyond overpowered. you can't compare air-spellcasters to groundspellcasters, being airborne is such a big advantage in the first place..
Very true.
I think queens have a big advantage on clogged maps like SCR. You can cast ensnare when you want and where you want since queens can fly anywhere. On the other hand, on open maps like Andromeda marimedi has many different routes of escape when ensnared.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face: progamer T-shirt = $50 progamer mouse = $100 Gaming PC = $1000 The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
On December 28 2008 04:33 SlickR12345 wrote: Yeah I've watched that game, it was amazing.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face: progamer T-shirt = $50 progamer mouse = $100 Gaming PC = $1000 The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
They're probably using $50 PCs. It's not like you need anything better to run SC.
Who the fuck are these new theorycrafting posters that shitty klazart VODS and SC2 brought onto our boards?
Do you not realize that to use queens you have to change the entire flow and timing of your game? The opportunity cost of queens, or anything at all, is all the holes you have to plug in your metagame. Or maybe you've never played SC and just jerk off to shitty english vods.
On December 28 2008 04:33 SlickR12345 wrote: Yeah I've watched that game, it was amazing.
I always thought queens are a bit under-rated, but how Jaedong used the queens, that was amazing, never thought queens can be so good.
And the look on fantasy face: progamer T-shirt = $50 progamer mouse = $100 Gaming PC = $1000 The look on fantasy's face when geting ensared = Priceless
They're probably using $50 PCs. It's not like you need anything better to run SC.
On December 28 2008 05:11 naventus wrote: Who the fuck are these new theorycrafting posters that shitty klazart VODS and SC2 brought onto our boards?
Do you not realize that to use queens you have to change the entire flow and timing of your game? The opportunity cost of queens, or anything at all, is all the holes you have to plug in your metagame. Or maybe you've never played SC and just jerk off to shitty english vods.
hi, cunt.
I'm only theorycrafting based what I saw in an actual pro game. So it's not really theorycrafting anymore then, right? I assume you don't have the credibility to say you're better than a Korean progamer, right?
and I speak and understand Korean, so I don't need shitty ENglish VODs or brag about having KOrean friends.
On December 27 2008 21:33 Shikyo wrote: You say that you lose them quickly to Irradiate. Now, which of these 3 would you rather have Irradiated? 1. 150 gas defilers 2. 125 gas Lurkers 3. 100 gas Queens? Queens have already done their job if they get irradiated.
A queen is a better target than a lurker, despite being cheaper.
Of course, but you save 25 gas by getting the Queen irradiated =)
I'm only theorycrafting based what I saw in an actual pro game. So it's not really theorycrafting anymore then, right? I assume you don't have the credibility to say you're better than a Korean progamer, right?
and I speak and understand Korean, so I don't need shitty ENglish VODs or brag about having KOrean friends.
Here's what you said your shitass post: Queen's ensnare can be used to help kill armies. This is also what 100% of these topics are basically like - they say nothing.
How do I get to queens from a 9 pool or 3 hatch? Do I delay evos for Queen nest? Is this for 3 hatch lurk, 2 hatch lurk, 3 hatch muta? What positions can this be used in? Will I be weak to 3rax rines, FE 4 rax etc. How does it stack against standard terran FE play? What sort of damage/play style do I need to do? When and where do I get my fourth hatch?
Oh wait, you don't say anything or know anything. Instead you make a thread that has 0 useful discussion except some links to VODs and tell us what we already know if the zerg somehow has queens on the field.
I'm only theorycrafting based what I saw in an actual pro game. So it's not really theorycrafting anymore then, right? I assume you don't have the credibility to say you're better than a Korean progamer, right?
and I speak and understand Korean, so I don't need shitty ENglish VODs or brag about having KOrean friends.
Here's what you said your shitass post: Queen's ensnare can be used to help kill armies. This is also what 100% of these topics are basically like - they say nothing.
How do I get to queens from a 9 pool or 3 hatch? Do I delay evos for Queen nest? Is this for 3 hatch lurk, 2 hatch lurk, 3 hatch muta? What positions can this be used in? Will I be weak to 3rax rines, FE 4 rax etc. How does it stack against standard terran FE play? What sort of damage/play style do I need to do? When and where do I get my fourth hatch?
Oh wait, you don't say anything or know anything. Instead you make a thread that has 0 useful discussion except some links to VODs and tell us what we already know if the zerg somehow has queens on the field.
Hey, did you guys notice that Jaedong parasited one of the sci vessels? Does anyone know if Fantasy realized this? It did seem like Jaedong knew exactly when/where to attack/cast esnare at the final moments there. Maybe the scouting info of parasite could be another factor to use queens. If a pro like Jaedong knows exactly where you are and what you're doing his micro will tear you apart.
On January 27 2009 16:05 boredcouch wrote: Hey, did you guys notice that Jaedong parasited one of the sci vessels? Does anyone know if Fantasy realized this? It did seem like Jaedong knew exactly when/where to attack/cast esnare at the final moments there. Maybe the scouting info of parasite could be another factor to use queens. If a pro like Jaedong knows exactly where you are and what you're doing his micro will tear you apart.
how long have u been playing sc? its really easy to catch a parasited a unit cuz itll show up as a green box in the group. maybe he dint wana kill it.
On January 27 2009 16:05 boredcouch wrote: Hey, did you guys notice that Jaedong parasited one of the sci vessels? Does anyone know if Fantasy realized this? It did seem like Jaedong knew exactly when/where to attack/cast esnare at the final moments there. Maybe the scouting info of parasite could be another factor to use queens. If a pro like Jaedong knows exactly where you are and what you're doing his micro will tear you apart.
Im pretty sure fantasy knew about the parasited science vessels, if you have them hot keyed its almost impossible not to notice that green border around them. I think it was a matter of him not wanting to kill the vessels or research restore to get rid of the parasites.
Another thing I was just wondering about queens and late game and their effecitveness... if your queens are still alive from mid game and you already have moved into late games (defilers) couldnt you leave your queen in your main base or expos and use them to prevent drops? I would imagine a queen at your main would work wonders against a late game dropship. Obviously scourge are really effective for taking care of drop ships but Im just trying to find late game uses for queen where APM deprived people like me can't handle swarming, burrowing lurkers properly, proper ling micro and on top of that queen ensnares. I also realize that this is all theory craft and I have yet to try it... I'll get back to you guys on that one.
I just love ensnare. I really wish zerg progamers would learn to use queens and create micro techniques and build orders incorporating queens. It's such a shame that such a great unit has gone unused because progamers aren't willing to take the time and effort to learn to use it. And we won't use it unless a successful progamer uses it consistently.
As a player who uses queens quite often, the biggest drawback of the queen is its starting energy. Or if the starting energy is unchanged, if broodling costed 125-135 mana instead it would dominate like irradiate does. 150 is just an insane wait.
On January 27 2009 16:49 Not_Computer wrote: I just love ensnare. I really wish zerg progamers would learn to use queens and create micro techniques and build orders incorporating queens. It's such a shame that such a great unit has gone unused because progamers aren't willing to take the time and effort to learn to use it. And we won't use it unless a successful progamer uses it consistently.
As a player who uses queens quite often, the biggest drawback of the queen is its starting energy. Or if the starting energy is unchanged, if broodling costed 125-135 mana instead it would dominate like irradiate does. 150 is just an insane wait.
Is there any chance of a patch changing this? IIRC the last patch for balance was WAY back in the day
this is the strategy forum, a thread that is basically 'queens have ensnare' with a hint of 'terran is unfair' doesn't really have a place here
if you had something useful to talk about, like how queens can/should be incorporated into zerg play, that'd be a good thread. telling people 'ensnare slows things down' doesn't help anyone
d_so, you kinda have to provide some meat for discussion in strategy forum threads, unless you're writing a guide or something. starcraft is very complex and people at TL tend to be more knowledgable; you need more than 'ensnare makes things slow = use ensnare' to make a thread in this section
EPT
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