EPTI Want to be a Commentator - Page 4
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:05 RaGe wrote: Well this is where you are wrong. And this is what any good brood war player will tell you: Eventhough you learn a lot by watching high-level StarCraft, you will never really understand it unless you played at a decent level. You think the difference is small, but the difference is huge. HUGE. You've probably seen the standard TvZ a million times: 1 Rax FE vs 3hatch muta. You can probably 'predict' (yes quotation marks because its not through reasoning but through personal viewing experience) what's gonna happen next. But you know nothing of how the game evolved to that point, why that build is more suited to one map than to the other, how it affects your gameplan when you lose 4 scvs or 9scvs during mutaharass. Things like that really matter.. and you'll never know even half of what a decent player would know about it. You guys have been improving, props to that, but you'll never become good casters. Solely for the fact that you learned StarCraft from watching StarCraft. You can't introduce new facts to people that just watch StarCraft regularily. You can't provide them with analysis. You're just like them. A viewer. I'm not saying casting is easy, not at all. I've done some casting myself and I'm fucking terrible. But I still think it'd take a fluent speaking top player not even a week of practice to catch up with 99% of the SC2GG commentators in skill, eventhough you've been doing this for ages. And every week after that he'll double his outperforming you. Hey, you guys cater to a different audience, I'm aware of that. But in my opinion the decent starcraft players aren't gonna make the switch over to watching you guys anytime soon. In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job. | ||
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
You may provide us with some excitement, to say the least, but what else? Oh, the big factor: We get to hear it in English. But I will still never watch your commentating. Why should I? I can get the same excitement hearing the beasty voice of "mahhhhhhhhhhhk". The sole purpose of doing the subtitle thread was because I wanted everyone to see the insight of the Korean games. Not seeing what's happening, but understanding what's happening allows us to appreciate the game that much more. This is my final answer, and you can't deny it; you have to have pretty darn good understanding of the game. IMO, for a foreigner to prove this, you need at least very high ranking in ICCUPs. So what's your iccup ranking? (I think this is Tastee's point too) It's true. Korean commentators aren't good at playing starcraft at all, but they have as much as insight as the top tier(!) progamers. There was a popular starcraft show called StarBrains. Two players play as one team, one who directs and plans, and the other just follows order and macro. Caster Um (the fat one with MAHHHHHK) was the brain and Luxury(before he was good, Yarn was far more superior/famous at this time) was the player playing against Caster Kim (Carrier Kim) with Chalreng. ZvP. Caster Um opened with Muta opening and later switched to Hydra Lurkers. While Caster Kim defended the harrass making few archons then proceeded to collect some high templar. At the MOST PERFECT timing after building 298374987 hydras/lurks, caster Um orders Lux, "Let's build 6 mutas right about now. I don't understand why progamers dont do this, but this is such powerful strategy." Yes, he created 6 Mutas with this sole purpose: to snipe all the newly made templars. This was unthinkable even for pros at that time. Once they switched to hydra lurk, no one thought of reusing the mutas(well... only for all-in). But ever since caster Um introduced this strat, every pro zerg on planet abused this strat, sniping templars because going in with mass hydra lurk army. At this point, you're going to say 'see? Iccup ranking doesn't mean everything'. You're right. But unless you're korean, you still have to show me your ICCUP ranking. Otherwise, I'm not buying it. You can have very good commentating, I do not know. But no matter what, unless you either have very high iccup ranking, or you are a korean, don't waste your time. No matter how good your commentating will be, unless backed up by iccup ranking, no one will be interested. And yes, I consider Tastee as a pure-bred Korean. All my posts, everyone hates it with a passion. lol... <3 FBH /activate Flameproofx2 | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote: In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job. I don't think TL Attack is a fair point to judge anyone's personality or casting abilities.  ! | ||
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CholeraSC
United States114 Posts
However, just as Tasteless said, it's about what audience you appeal to. I may get flamed for this, but I do not think Tasteless uses many technical details in his GomTV commentaries either - and I think he is BETTER for not doing so. He appeals to more fans by using his limited screen time to talk about the players and their records, the nature of the tournament, the gamers' psychology, and other aspects of color commentary (panda guy, anyone?) that make his work so popular and ground-breaking. He is an entertainer, firstly. What I don't see is people here ripping his commentaries videos up for not having those details that you claim are missing from other casters' videos, like mine (although I suspect that many of you have never seen any of mine, since I don't post here often). If you like his GomTV casts, which I love and I'm sure almost ever TLer does, then you are watching almost entirely "entertainment-level" Starcraft, meant for the casual gamer or non-gamer enthusiast, and not the ultra serious, high-level technical analysis that some claim is necessary for them to want to watch. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:24 Chill wrote: I don't think TL Attack is a fair point to judge anyone's personality or casting abilities. !Well if they have 3 hours to joke around and talk about SC and they fail to say anything interesting more than once or twice the whole time I think that's pretty fair to judge. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:28 lgdDante wrote: Well if they have 3 hours to joke around and talk about SC and they fail to say anything interesting more than once or twice the whole time I think that's pretty fair to judge. Alright, I disagree since there is a lot more happening then you can see from the front end. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
It would be stupid to judge someone's charisma based on that alone. It is stupid to do that. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
Along the play-by-play man's side though is an expert in that sport (a former executive/coach/player etc). They give you the in-depth analysis that builds off the play by play. Can the original poster fill this niche? No, not unless he devotes a great deal of time into playing and learning the game through and through. The problem in this thread though is that everyone expects an SC caster to be the total package - an expert in the field and a good play by play man - two roles that are usually fulfilled by two different people. Tasteless is the very very very rare example of a person that is qualified in both fields, that's why he is so good at what he does. It's unfair to expect all commentators to fit into this mold though, as the nature of casting a sport properly, or a game like starcraft is one that usually includes 2 or more people. Through sheer lack of people casting games, starcraft casting eventually shifted to just one person carrying the load, and everyone got used to that. Now everyone expects each aspiring caster to be the "total package." I think the irony of this situation is that if people could just let go of their "perfect caster" ideal, and let the experts work together with the more neophyte, enthusiastic play-by-play type people, casting SC games could REALLY flourish. Instead, people just disregard the first type of caster as useless if they aren't up to the "Tasteless standard." Whatever, that's my 10 cents. To the OP: the best advice is usually to ignore all advice entirely and do whatever the hell you want to as long as you have the passion to carry through. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36379 Posts
On October 02 2008 01:13 CholeraSC wrote: ... I've been doing commentaries of Korean pro-games for about 6 months now. At first, when I started off, I was much less fluent in either casting or game analysis that I am now, and when I posted some links up at Teamliquid, I felt pretty much blown off. ... Anyway, my point is this: I would not mind more involved in Teamliquid, and I have tried a few times from the start, but I feel that I wouldn't be given a fair chance at here of getting viewers or just some constructive feedback. I feel that my posting here (or Diggity, Klazart, and Moletrap doing so) would most likely result in an a scoff-fest at my playing skills, with many of the responders not even watching my videos before judging. Sure, there's mistakes. But us four have been providing consistent, comprehensive English casting of the OSL, MSL, and Proleague for several seasons now. That's hundreds of games that are no where else cast in a language that most foreign viewers can understand. We have received hundreds, if not thousands, of messages saying that they wouldn't have watched those games if not for our commentaries, of which I usually receive 3000 - 4000 viewers, and Klazart can receive up to 10,000+. These viewers add to eSports publicity in general, which benefits Teamliquid, Tasteless, the chances of eSports being broadcast in the US, and all other good things. So I do hope that the members here would at least give my videos another shot - take a look at the ones I posted, for example - and reconsider their views of my work. I would love to contribute more to your site if you let me without being pre-judged. By the way, I love your casting, Tasteless! I have literally seen every game you have casted - from the old WCG casts with DJ Wheat, to the WWI games with Bunny, to every single GomTV Invitation/Classic game on the list. I appreciate very much that you have paved the way for later enthusiasts like us, and I hope we can meet sometime at WCG Cologne, to which I'll most likely go also. Cheers - Cholera I looked over the threads you posted and I don't think people here blew you off at all, I don't see where you're getting that. What I read was vastly positive responses and some constructive criticism (that you accepted graciously). I don't know where you're getting this impression that we're just going to attack you. On October 02 2008 01:47 CholeraSC wrote: My post has nothing to do with SC2GG.com, nor do I claim to represent them, or ask anyone here to to like them more, etc. All I'm talking about is new commentators and reactions to them here. Let's try to keep it on topic, and change the thread title back to what it was. I don't see what's wrong with talking about SC2GG / TL relations. I think you guys provide valuable and unique content to the community, and that you guys should post more and post your commentaries more on TL.net. As Diggity said, there's always going to be haters everywhere so I don't see why it should stop you from posting here, especially if in my opinion nobody really attacked or blew you off in your threads in the first place. I mean, you guys (Mole, Digg, Cholera, Vaul, etc) obviously all browse TL to some extent. If you don't, you're missing out on things like discussing progaming, features like shirts, FEs, all that fun stuff. Let's be honest, we don't provide commentary like you guys do over at SC2GG and you guys don't have the activity level / news that we have. Maybe its not reflected in that I don't post on your forums, but if I want to hear commentary I go check out one of your casts, all of whom I view quite positively (outside of Combat rofl). I think the "backlash" from the whole Klaz incident is pretty stupid (on both sides) and you should give TL a chance and be more active here. Sure there'll be stupid haters but I think tougher skin is needed when you put yourself into the public as commentators do. When Vaul and Cholera and that other guy (i forget, Deus?) posted their commentaries here, the response was overwhelmingly positive. Secluding yourselves from the largest and most interactive foreign BW community is not helping you or us, and just furthers a lot of misconceptions about each of our sites. Like TL is a bunch of elitist pricks who attack every newbie / commentator, and SC2GG are a bunch of newbs who can't take a bit of criticism. Stereotypes like this just aren't true and will be easily dispelled if people actually interact with each other. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:31 Kennigit wrote: Are you talking about chill or the players? The players, Chill is actually pretty good in those things, especially in more of a supporting techincal role where he can just pop in every minute or so and provide some insight. I was responding to whoever said that if a top foreigner took up commentating they would surpass 99% of people in 2 weeks. Because I don't know if they are just burned out on the game but most of them seem incapable of getting excited about a game of starcraft, there's definately some expections out there that would probably be good at it like mondragon, incontrol. But just because you are good at something doesnt mean you would be good a commentating on it, theres a reason why only certain NFL players start commentating. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:36 []p4NDemik[] wrote: look at any sport/esport and how those have been broadcasted for ages. there is always a play-by-play man who, relatively speaking, has very little experience in the actual sport itself or its inner workings (outside of spectating a large number of games). they are good at the call it as you see it type of banter, generally have good voices, and have enough charisma to comfortably move the broadcast along. Could the original poster be good at filling this niche? Sure. Along the play-by-play man's side though is an expert in that sport (a former executive/coach/player etc). They give you the in-depth analysis that builds off the play by play. Can the original poster fill this niche? No, not unless he devotes a great deal of time into playing and learning the game through and through. The problem in this thread though is that everyone expects an SC caster to be the total package - an expert in the field and a good play by play man - two roles that are usually fulfilled by two different people. Tasteless is the very very very rare example of a person that is qualified in both fields, that's why he is so good at what he does. It's unfair to expect all commentators to fit into this mold though, as the nature of casting a sport, or a game like starcraft is one that usually includes 2 or more people. Through sheer lack of people casting games, starcraft casting eventually shifted to just one person carrying the load, and everyone got used to that. Now everyone expects each aspiring caster to be the "total package." I think the irony of this situation is that if people could just let go of their "perfect caster" ideal, and let the experts work together with the more neophyte, enthusiastic play-by-play type people, casting SC games could REALLY flourish. Instead, people just disregard the first type of caster as useless if they aren't up to the "Tasteless standard." Whatever, that's my 10 cents. To the OP: the best advice is usually to ignore all advice entirely and do whatever the hell you want to as long as you have the passion to carry through. Yes this is what i said. The problem is sc2gg are only filling the play-by-play role. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:20 lgdDante wrote: In a techincal sense they would be light years ahead, but the average b+ or higher BW player severely lacks in the personality/excitement department. No offense to these people but if you watch them on TLAttack or some of the commentaries they've done, its like they are reading a book report to the class in 3rd grade. I remember reading somewhere that a bored person is a boring person, and if the commentator is droning on for 25 minutes no matter how exciting the game is or how technical the comments are, its going to be boring as hell. It's just a trade off based on what you want to get out of the commentary, if you are just bored and want to watch an SC game with some play by play and some screaming you'd probably want someone from sc2gg, and if you want to hear some indepth stuff with a more reserved tone, then you'd probably look for some top player's commentary. Both of the groups are handicapped in one respect, and the commentators that are really great have both, which is why tasteless/artosis and d-lee are in korea right now doing this for a job. First of all, TL Attack is completely different from doing audio commentaries about pro matches. In TL Attack, there's literally no point at all as to give strategical commentary on the match. Nor is there any point on being all excited. In the TSL it was pretty much proven that low experience, high skilled commentators like Chill and Artosis could manage transferring excitement through their voice. I personally don't get why some people prefer excitement over content. When I watch SC2GG commentaries, I don't feel like I'm watching StarCraft. It could be any game, maybe even fucking Age of Empires. All they talk about is what they see and scream when 2 armies collide. And every now and then you say something that is just SO HORRIBLY WRONG THAT IT MAKES ME CRINGE. There's a reason why Age of Empires isn't an eSport. And there's a reason why StarCraft is. The difference between the two, game depth, isn't something you can see in the SC2GG commentaries. If you could show StarCraft in its true form through your commentaries, you could have a shitload more fans. It could even be educational. It's too bad, I guess, none of you really played that much SC. Please don't think this offensively. I still appreciate your efforts. Don't take it personal either, a lot of you might be cool guys. I can, for instance, get along really well with Vaul and think he's a cool guy. You'll never hear me say you should just stop doing commentaries (eventhough some of you are really spreading strategic misinformation), but you'll always hear me say you guys should be modest. Most of you already are, but some of you just don't realize it when you're incompetent (Hi Klazart!). | ||
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CholeraSC
United States114 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:29 Chill wrote: Tasteless mentions a lot of high level ideas in his casts, actually. He just doesn't harp on them and mentions them in passing, but they are there. Most times the most technical detail I hear is, "he's building a supply depot on the bottom of the CC to squeeze the SCV out nearer to his minerals", or something like "X is going for a fast reaver drop, which is a great counter to a T fast expand, if the T doesn't know about it, and they don't because they can't get the early Comsat...". These are things that can be, and are, in videos like mine. I do hear some high-level ideas, but like you say, they aren't emphasized, and I bet you don't watch his videos just for that 3 second snip of high-level analysis. Anyway, I'm not asking TL to like my videos, or those of my friends, as much as Tasteless'. I understand that his style might be more energetic, his jokes funnier, and his active membership here more endearing. But I just ask that you don't judge our videos by the supposed lack of technical merit, since I do not think that is not the criteria you judge his professional casts by, either. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:36 lgdDante wrote: The players, Chill is actually pretty good in those things, especially in more of a supporting techincal role where he can just pop in every minute or so and provide some insight. I was responding to whoever said that if a top foreigner took up commentating they would surpass 99% of people in 2 weeks. Because I don't know if they are just burned out on the game but most of them seem incapable of getting excited about a game of starcraft, there's definately some expections out there that would probably be good at it like mondragon, incontrol. But just because you are good at something doesnt mean you would be good a commentating on it, theres a reason why only certain NFL players start commentating. Saying that all top bw players don't have personality is pretty ridiculous. Yes there's some that a quite bland but alot of the top americans would be awesome casters. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:35 Chill wrote: Either way it doesn't matter. The players are trying to get familiar with a format they've never tried before and to play Brood War while talking. The commentators are trying to read multiple IRC channels, PMs and BNet while striking a balance between calling the play, asking questions and making jokes. It would be stupid to judge someone's charisma based on that alone. It is stupid to do that. Then why are certain players able to do it so easily and other struggle so badly? If i remember right mondragon was able to beat nony while talking to you guys. I'm not asking for the guy to be doing a stand up routine while playing but is it honestly you think over 3 hours there isn't ample chance for someones personality to shine through? It's not like they are locked in a heated game for 3 hours straight. And once again i wasn't talking about you. | ||
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p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On October 02 2008 02:37 Kennigit wrote: Yes this is what i said. The problem is sc2gg are only filling the play-by-play role. That's true, because not a lot of people who would fulfill the "expert in-the-field" role have the time or the inclination to join forces with the people doing the play-by-play. It's nobody's fault really, just a shame. | ||
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