EPT[D] MBS Discussion II - Page 32
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Meh
Sweden458 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On February 10 2008 13:15 0xDEADBEEF wrote: What if Blizzard would include a few more hard counters Then you would have cnc4, aoe3 or some other shit game like that. Soft counters is a big reason the strats can be diverse, in a hard counter world you are forced to build exactly that army every time and in an hard counter world terrain doesn't mean as much since the counter unit has a ton of health vs its intended target. In starcraft on the other hand every unit deals a ton of damage against everything, zealots can counter tanks and tanks can counter zealots depending ón a ton of other factors. The zergling is a unit that would be impossible ot have in a hard counter world, the zergling rapes everything in the game hard costwise as long as they are not bottlenecked or overkilled by splashdamage. The magic of starcrafts units comes from a softcounter system and extreme lethality, wich then evolves to a lower lethality at higher techs to break stalemates. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On February 10 2008 13:15 0xDEADBEEF wrote: - Noobs would still like to mass units, because it's easy using MBS, but pros know it would be a disadvantage to do so. - Average players could sometimes use MBS when they think it's a good idea or when they need more time to micro (i.e. they think "ok let's just build 10 zeals right now although it's not that smart, but at least I can micro this battle now..."). - But pros probably would never use it. Which is quite an optimal result if you ask me. I agree completely. Hard and soft counters each favour different playstiles. Hardcounters are better for strategic players, they get better with proper unit choices. Softcounters favour the Micro players, they can even out poor unit matchups with superior control. Ideall would be a proper balance, overemphatising Softcounters would lead to "Hydrarush" scenarios. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
So you log in on 'pro SC' ie proper playing without MBS or you log into 'n00bstyle' and all of your opponents play with MBS and automine etc. that way, you would get loads of people playing the game, because n00bstyle would be accessible to western, impatient audiences. And pro SC would be there for people who graduated from MBS and automine. You might argue that this would be splitting the SC community, but I disagree, because for example there is already a split of us east/west europe and asia. It might even be quite fun, you could try and be master of both game types, and strategies would change completely. It would be like magic the gathering Type 1 and Type 2. | ||
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Meh
Sweden458 Posts
On February 10 2008 15:41 0xDEADBEEF wrote: No, this was already discussed before... it's probably not a good solution. SC1 already has a "noob mode" and a "pro mode": the speed setting. Newbies could play on normal or fast, and good players on fastest. But it turns out that no one uses the slower speeds. If you create a game on normal or fast, you'll just get laughed at and no one will play. Even though "fast" isn't even that much slower. The same will happen if you make one pro mode and one noob mode. All players will just use the pro mode and the noobs will still complain. You have to make the game the same for everyone, and cater to both. This man speaks the truth. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On February 11 2008 04:29 HamerD wrote: You might argue that this would be splitting the SC community, but I disagree, because for example there is already a split of us east/west europe and asia. That's irrelevant though, because the game is the same. It would be like magic the gathering Type 1 and Type 2. What's the difference there? I used to play Magic quite a bit when I was younger. That was in 1993-1996 or so. The editions from back then are probably really old now, I even had some cards from Alpha and Beta, and a ton of cards from Unlimited. That's the first three editions IIRC. There are so many now... Well... I sold them after I quit anyway, for 200 DM (now 100 EUR). Klockan3: Not sure, maybe, but I think that if you only include, say, 1 or 2 units for each race which are really strong against common mass units (e.g. mass hydras, mass M&M, mass goons), it might make the game more strategical and make MBS less of a potential threat to the pro scene. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On February 11 2008 04:29 HamerD wrote: What if there were literally two different ways of playing the game? Like control systems in Halo. So you log in on 'pro SC' ie proper playing without MBS or you log into 'n00bstyle' and all of your opponents play with MBS and automine etc. that way, you would get loads of people playing the game, because n00bstyle would be accessible to western, impatient audiences. And pro SC would be there for people who graduated from MBS and automine. You might argue that this would be splitting the SC community, but I disagree, because for example there is already a split of us east/west europe and asia. It might even be quite fun, you could try and be master of both game types, and strategies would change completely. It would be like magic the gathering Type 1 and Type 2. It sounds nice, but it would fracture the community. non-mbs would probably be a minority, and what happens when you want to play a friend whol likes mbs? Do you just let them have that advantage? | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On February 11 2008 14:17 fusionsdf wrote: It sounds nice, but it would fracture the community. non-mbs would probably be a minority, and what happens when you want to play a friend whol likes mbs? Do you just let them have that advantage? Yes. Or he lets you have the advantage. Its no different from having a friend who only plays Fastest possible map. The map is soo much different from current promaps, that your strategies will not work. You of course adapt to the different style required for FPM. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Had the difference between T1 and T2 been "you get to look at the cards in your hand once, then put them face down on the table and play them from there.", you'd have a more fitting analogy. Game would be totally different, would require new skills and more practice. Would people play it? Would it be worth it to market by WotC? That's the important question. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On February 11 2008 23:35 L wrote: Magic T1 and T2 are essentially different games, not different game modes. T1 favors people who have extensive card collections, and T2 favors those who have just joined. T1 exists because the sequential addition of cards makes someone who has power 9 + all of his 40 dollar combo pieces a turn 1/2 winner, which is no fun to play against unless you've got the same backing, whereas T2 exists to force people to keep buying new cards to be competitive. Had the difference between T1 and T2 been "you get to look at the cards in your hand once, then put them face down on the table and play them from there.", you'd have a more fitting analogy. Game would be totally different, would require new skills and more practice. Would people play it? Would it be worth it to market by WotC? That's the important question. T1 has a lot of instant win combos, its like if someone has a black lotus you can play ambush the first turn and if you do that with an avatar of life you win before your opponent can do shit. Or the unlimited mana combos or the old imba draw x cards or mox'es that lets you go around the land limits. Modern decks are much better balanced, its like the difference between fastest possible and normal tourny maps. In one you abuse parts of the game, while the other is how its meant to be played. The old magic decks aren't meant to be used with the modern cards to create these unlimited mana combos or instant win draws. | ||
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GoodLuck!
United States41 Posts
On February 12 2008 03:40 Klockan3 wrote: T1 has a lot of instant win combos, its like if someone has a black lotus you can play ambush the first turn and if you do that with an avatar of life you win before your opponent can do shit. Or the unlimited mana combos or the old imba draw x cards or mox'es that lets you go around the land limits. Modern decks are much better balanced, its like the difference between fastest possible and normal tourny maps. In one you abuse parts of the game, while the other is how its meant to be played. The old magic decks aren't meant to be used with the modern cards to create these unlimited mana combos or instant win draws. I play T2 Professiionally, and there are OTK decks (One Turn Kill), such as Pickles or Mannequin. | ||
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Meh
Sweden458 Posts
I for one do not believe two different playmodes will even be considered. Maaking sure noobs dont play pros is what the ladder system is for, why make it more complicated and potentially stupid by including a handicap? | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
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jngngshk321
Korea (South)457 Posts
anyway, there are an overwhelming number of players who are for MBS in the starcraft 2 general discussion forums, and some of them have played with tl.net members on battlenet or amongst other SC2GD members, and their APM is always <60 (usually around the 40~49 area). Think about how slow 40 APM actually is. It means these players spend most of their time staring at their command center or at a barracks waiting for their marine to finish building. These are the people who call SC "mindless clickfests" and refuse to see it as anything else. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
 .On February 20 2008 04:34 jngngshk321 wrote: anyway, there are an overwhelming number of players who are for MBS in the starcraft 2 general discussion forums, and some of them have played with tl.net members on battlenet or amongst other SC2GD members, no no no you idiot!!!!! and their APM is always <60 (usually around the 40~49 area). Think about how slow 40 APM actually is. It means these players spend most of their time staring at their command center or at a barracks waiting for their marine to finish building. These are the people who call SC "mindless clickfests" and refuse to see it as anything else. ahhhh he agrees with me hahahaha!!!! :D | ||
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Meh
Sweden458 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
It's just about the feeling of being annoyed by the SC1 UI. Whether I play against a noob and win within the first 8 minutes or I play against a better player and lose at some point, there's always a TON of clicking and typing involved. It doesn't scale. You always have to put in a lot of effort into a game. Hell, I'd even say that SC1 is unergonomic. When I play SC1 on LAN with some friends of mine who really suck at the game, my hand still hurts after a few hours of playing it. It's the only game making my hands hurt. | ||
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Klouvious
23 Posts
On February 20 2008 06:39 0xDEADBEEF wrote: When I play SC1 on LAN with some friends of mine who really suck at the game, my hand still hurts after a few hours of playing it. It's the only game making my hands hurt. A crazy idea just popped into my mind as soon as I read this part, its really stupid but i can't fight the urge to post it: Starcraft 2 Features: Three Unique Alien Species Whether you command the nomadic Terran Marines, mysterious Protoss, or voracious Zerg, you must devise totally unique strategies to master the specialised units, abilities, and technologies of each one in turn. Command Ghost Espionage Agents, Wraith Stealth Fighters, Protoss High Templars, and Zerg Defilers as you seek to conquer the galaxy. Multiple Theatres of Battle Within each campaign there are missions which will include either space combat, planetary assault, or covert base infiltration or a combination of both. Revolutionary Special Effects Real-time light sourcing, true line of sight, and a translucency engine combine for incredible special effects and realism. Intense Internet Competition Challenge players world-wide with via Blizzard's Battle.net gaming service. Up to eight players supported for head-to-head, allied or team play. Enhanced features include world-wide player rankings, tournaments, and challenge ladders. Unequalled Campaign Editor Construct individual missions or entire campaigns with unrivalled ease! Set victory conditions, customise speech and sound, and create unique heroes while building enormous single and multi player worlds complete with your own storyline. Unique Gameplay Experience. Keeping true to the original Starcraft that revolutionized the way that RTS games were played Starcraft 2 has retained everything that made original Starcraft what it was. Starcraft 2 guarantees your hands will hurt after a few hours playing it, just like good old Starcraft. | ||
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