EPTIn all fairness, I firmly believe they'd surprise a lot of people with their performance
What if Serral or Clem switched to Broodwar - Page 2
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Long-Band6789
2 Posts
In all fairness, I firmly believe they'd surprise a lot of people with their performance | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1738 Posts
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Comedy
469 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7362 Posts
On March 26 2025 16:49 iFU.pauline wrote: Given enough time to practice they could become top foreigners I guess, but the step to reach top Kor is too huge no offense. It is even frightening to see how a 2500 mmr amateur Kor gets obliterated against basically any ex-pro let alone top players. The game has been around for more than 20 years, if someone super smart super fast super good from any other game could make a name to BW, we would know it by now. Never happened. As for now, either you were bred in a kor pro-house during kespa era, or you are good as dead. Why would anyone even try through? There are numerous games with easier entry, more money, more prestige and more active scenes around the globe. It really only is an interesting avenue for upcoming Koreans with a knack for RTS and a fable for retro games | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On March 25 2025 10:53 dysenterymd wrote: With practice they'd probably be pretty good, just like the best Brood War players were pretty good at SC2. But none of the best BW players were the best at SC2 and chances are slim that Serral/Clem would be anywhere near the best. None of the best broodwar players were the absolute best in sc2 but I'd say Flash and Jaedong came pretty dang close as they both won premier tournaments in it + Jaedong reached Blizzcon finals and Flash was a beast in Proleague. and that was during the most competitive era in sc2, not comparable to todays retiree broodwar scene. The difference though is that Clem and Serral would have to catch up to 20 years of practice as opposed to the 2 years of sc2 Flash and Jaedong hat to catch up. But given the insane talent of Clem and Serral my guess would be that after maybe 1-2 years of hard practice they could qualify for ASL and perform somewhat decent in it. This is based on nothing but my gut feeling. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On March 26 2025 16:49 iFU.pauline wrote: As for now, either you were bred in a kor pro-house during kespa era, or you are good as dead. We used to think the same in sc2, before Clem, Serral and Reynor proved otherwise. And Neeb | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:00 Charoisaur wrote: None of the best broodwar players were the absolute best in sc2 but I'd say Flash and Jaedong came pretty dang close as they both won premier tournaments in it + Jaedong reached Blizzcon finals and Flash was a beast in Proleague. and that was during the most competitive era in sc2, not comparable to todays retiree broodwar scene. The difference though is that Clem and Serral would have to catch up to 20 years of practice as opposed to the 2 years of sc2 Flash and Jaedong hat to catch up. But given the insane talent of Clem and Serral my guess would be that after maybe 1-2 years of hard practice they could qualify for ASL and perform somewhat decent in it. This is based on nothing but my gut feeling. To elaborate a bit on my gut feeling, I think while obviously there isn't a 1:1 skill transfer between the games, in terms of pure mechanical ability the correlation is extremely high. Like if player A has higher APM and better mouse accuracy than player B in one RTS it doesn't make sense that he would suddenly have lower APM and worse mouse accuracy in another. And we know that in sc2 Serral and Clem have better mechanics than any korean. And that isn't only because many switched back, you ain't telling me that Jaedong and Effort would have better mechanics than Serral right now if they sticked to sc2. . Consequently, I'm pretty certain that Serral and Clem after 1-2 years of hard bw practice would be mechanically superior to the koreans (just need to build the muscle memory that let's them take advantage of their higher APM and better mouse accuracy), which would enable them to qualify for ASL. However, their gamesense and decision-making trees would likely be worse due to having considerably less practice with the game, which would ultimately make them unable to win the ASL. For winning the ASL I'd give them maybe 3-4 years, although in that timeframe the scene could change so much, and Clem and Serrals mechanics would also likely decline due to age, so it's hard to predict. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:04 Charoisaur wrote: We used to think the same in sc2, before Clem, Serral and Reynor proved otherwise. And Neeb Didnt their raise to success happen after SC2 disbanded most team houses? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On March 27 2025 03:42 tigera6 wrote: Didnt their raise to success happen after SC2 disbanded most team houses? neither do bw team houses exist at the moment | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:04 Charoisaur wrote: We used to think the same in sc2, before Clem, Serral and Reynor proved otherwise. And Neeb Funny how their dramatic rise coincides with the total collapse of the korean sc2 scene in 2016, when proleague and pro teams disbanded. But I guess there cant be a link between the two and non koreans, despite winning 0 major tournaments prior to that could magically keep up. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:28 Charoisaur wrote: To elaborate a bit on my gut feeling, I think while obviously there isn't a 1:1 skill transfer between the games, in terms of pure mechanical ability the correlation is extremely high. Like if player A has higher APM and better mouse accuracy than player B in one RTS it doesn't make sense that he would suddenly have lower APM and worse mouse accuracy in another. And we know that in sc2 Serral and Clem have better mechanics than any korean. And that isn't only because many switched back, you ain't telling me that Jaedong and Effort would have better mechanics than Serral right now if they sticked to sc2. . Consequently, I'm pretty certain that Serral and Clem after 1-2 years of hard bw practice would be mechanically superior to the koreans (just need to build the muscle memory that let's them take advantage of their higher APM and better mouse accuracy), which would enable them to qualify for ASL. However, their gamesense and decision-making trees would likely be worse due to having considerably less practice with the game, which would ultimately make them unable to win the ASL. For winning the ASL I'd give them maybe 3-4 years, although in that timeframe the scene could change so much, and Clem and Serrals mechanics would also likely decline due to age, so it's hard to predict. Your issue is that you think in terms of correlation that is a two way causality. However it is pretty easy to be good at sc2 when you were good at BW.... look at GSL a few months after Kespa made the switch and it was almost all Kespa bar a few talented nonKespa people. The rest went into obscurity or retired. Meanwhile little of the skills transfer from SC2 to BW. No foreigner ever got into ASL, no foreigner ever came even close to qualifying. Most of the pros these days were Kespa pros, bar Soma. Now Soma is the big exception and was championship material. However despite being exceptionally talented, it took him about 5 years to even go above being laughably bad and getting roflstomped everygame by former Kespa pros to being the slight favorite against them, while he was doing a Kespa training regime. There are little intricacies that takes years to even get right that nobody can just learn by reading liquipedia. Let alone it is impossible to learn it while not knowing Korean. Fucking Idra spend years training in a Kespa training house to never win a single televised game... He was still so horrible despite doing Kespa hours that he still only competed against other foreigners. It is laughable to think that Serral would just go, train 5 years and somehow become ASL material because he dominated SC2 after basically no korean really giving a fuck about the game. Serral would not even be relevant during the Kespa era in SC2. You cannot convince me otherwise. Serral, Clem etc seem exceptionally not because they are exceptionally talented, but because there are 0 SC2 players right now who are playing Kespa level hours each day at a tight training regimen. You cannot convince me that Serral or Clem or whoever is 'dominating' now wouldnt just go out of the tournament 0-3 in the first round whenever they encounter any random Kespa Korean in a tournament pre 2016... which was the case for EVERY foreigner pre 2016. Your entire argument about Serral or Clem even coming close to ASL level hinges on the idea that it must be that these non Koreans these days must be exceptionally talented and the most talented RTS players ever... while completely disregarding that the number of players who seriously compete and put in serious hours is closer to the SC2 beta than to its competitive height when Kespa pros joined. I swear if suddenly all F1, F2, F3 drivers would retire now then Nikita Mazepin would also look 'exceptionally talented' and I guess you would hype this dude also to oblivion as the GOAT simply because you refuse to face the truth, just like the truth the level competition shrunk by 90 percent in 2016. Nobody is hyping up fucking Killer as the GOAT for dominating BW with +70 percent winrate after all Kespa players were forced to switch to SC2 in 2012 lmao. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
It is laughable to think that Serral would just go, train 5 years and somehow become ASL material because he dominated SC2 after basically no korean really giving a fuck about the game. Serral would not even be relevant during the Kespa era in SC2. You cannot convince me otherwise. Serral, Clem etc seem exceptionally not because they are exceptionally talented, but because there are 0 SC2 players right now who are playing Kespa level hours each day at a tight training regimen. You cannot convince me that Serral or Clem or whoever is 'dominating' now wouldnt just go out of the tournament 0-3 in the first round whenever they encounter any random Kespa Korean in a tournament pre 2016... which was the case for EVERY foreigner pre 2016. Take a look at widow-mine/anti widow-mine micro in 2015 and say that again lmao. Serral definitely would have won a lot fewer tournaments if there were still huge Korean teams with teamhouses, but nobody in their right mind could think that full-time Serral wouldn't end up excelling in any era of SC2 (he was part-time until 2017 iirc?) How talented really is he at RTS compared to other greats of the genre? Impossible to know, we'd have to clone him, Flash and Maru raise them all in a teamhouse. Also while a lot of top Koreans are certainly phoning it in now, the idea that Maru/Classic/Inno/Rogue/Dark/Stats/Zest (who were great during peak SC2) didn't care about SC2 in 2018-2020 is laughable. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1347 Posts
On March 27 2025 05:38 dysenterymd wrote: Take a look at widow-mine/anti widow-mine micro in 2015 and say that again lmao. Serral definitely would have won a lot fewer tournaments if there were still huge Korean teams with teamhouses, but nobody in their right mind could think that full-time Serral wouldn't end up excelling in any era of SC2 (he was part-time until 2017 iirc?) How talented really is he at RTS compared to other greats of the genre? Impossible to know, we'd have to clone him, Flash and Maru raise them all in a teamhouse. Also while a lot of top Koreans are certainly phoning it in now, the idea that Maru/Classic/Inno/Rogue/Dark/Stats/Zest (who were great during peak SC2) didn't care about SC2 in 2018-2020 is laughable. You are arguing with someone whos entire personality is "omegarofl BW>SC2" and no, I'm not even kidding. But hey, welcome back from your ban and immediately coming back to the game you hate like nothing else <3 | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
No foreigner ever got into ASL, no foreigner ever came even close to qualifying. Most of the pros these days were Kespa pros, bar Soma. Man the foreigners back then were terribly mechanically compared to the koreans. I don't even get the comparison. Here we have the opposite scenario. Clem and Serral are probably slightly better mechanically than anyone in ASL. Maybe you have a point that Bw to Sc2 correlation is higher than the Sc2 to BW, but I don't think its that significant. I think the primary thing that matters is motivation. If clem and Serral are willing to put the work in + move to korea, I think they would be competitive in ~1 year. (competitive wouldn't imply competiting for title but rather be around top 20-30) | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On March 27 2025 05:54 Balnazza wrote: You are arguing with someone whos entire personality is "omegarofl BW>SC2" and no, I'm not even kidding. But hey, welcome back from your ban and immediately coming back to the game you hate like nothing else <3 That's funny, cuz I argue against a bunch of people in a sc2 echochamber that for months have deluded themselves that EWC is gonna happen 100 percent. I am not sure if you can even call ME biased here. But if it makes you happy arguing in your safe space while glazing each other nonstop. Guess there is a reason why you posted this thread in the SC2 forum instead of the BW forum to protect muh feelingz. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On March 27 2025 06:02 Hider wrote: Man the foreigners back then were terribly mechanically compared to the koreans. I don't even get the comparison. Here we have the opposite scenario. Clem and Serral are probably slightly better mechanically than anyone in ASL. Maybe you have a point that Bw to Sc2 correlation is higher than the Sc2 to BW, but I don't think its that significant. I think the primary thing that matters is motivation. If clem and Serral are willing to put the work in + move to korea, I think they would be competitive in ~1 year. (competitive wouldn't imply competiting for title but rather be around top 20-30) Bro the greatest foreigner right now by far in BW is Scan, who is korean. What does this tell you about the chances of any foreigner being top 20-30 and thus potentially ASL level? But I guess this echo chamber thrives on what ifs, like how Serral would clearly dominate Kespa SC2, or BW ASL. Or how Serral is better mechanically than anyone in ASL lMAO. But it becomes hostile once anything going against this narrative is presented in A PUBLIC FORUM. But I guess this is a symptom of an ever shrinking scene for a decade. Those who stop playing sc2 dont post anymore and those who do glaze the skill level today and level of competition up to make themselves feel better... And no, I dont hate SC2. I dont care about it. I hate the level of delusion and narcissistic grandeur tendencies some in this scene have but this is a personal matter. I have yet to see YOU refute or even answer directly against any of my arguments. All you do is dismiss it by saying LUL THIS DUDE ENTIRE PERSONALITY IS BW>SC2 If you would just stop glazing and face the truth FOR ONCE, then I wouldnt even be here, I wouldnt fucking care. But I am allergic against delusion. For example: Every time I see a post of you replying to a post about BW, showing the viewership being 16 times that of SC2, that donations is over 10 million usd a year destroying whatever saudis have been THAT WASNT EVEN POSTED BY ME, you answer with either: 1. Must be fake/not reliable source 2. LUL cant believe their entire personality revolves around BW>SC2 Again, to just dismiss FACTS that people have taken the time of their day out to craft with these hurdur answers is incredibly toxic. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27282 Posts
Where people are tending to say: 1. Serral and Clem are very good RTS players especially mechanically. 2. They could probably do something in BW, but it would be hard as shit because of x y or z. It’s a far cry from ‘Serral GOAT he’d be smacking Flash around within a year’. Which I, and many others in this thread would consider a bit silly. You also seem to discount the possibility that Serral is simultaneously really fucking good, and the Kespa pullout damaged the competitiveness and sustainability of the game. Mazepin? Really? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On March 27 2025 07:06 WombaT wrote: You’re purposefully straw manning the general tenor of this thread so you can vent about SC2 while complaining it’s an echo chamber, and are exceptionally myopic at the same time. Where people are tending to say: 1. Serral and Clem are very good RTS players especially mechanically. 2. They could probably do something in BW, but it would be hard as shit because of x y or z. It’s a far cry from ‘Serral GOAT he’d be smacking Flash around within a year’. Which I, and many others in this thread would consider a bit silly. You also seem to discount the possibility that Serral is simultaneously really fucking good, and the Kespa pullout damaged the competitiveness and sustainability of the game. Mazepin? Really? How is it strawmanning? When the entire premise was entirely biased to get to the conclusion that Serral must be some century talent instead of the level of competition being so low that some random 3 white dudes can somehow look good? So far I have yet to see anyone really bring up how the level of competition is a joke in SC2, like it was a joke pre-Kespa. This entire post Kespa argument of Serral being somehow talented and could compete during Kespa days cannot ever be proven and is based on what ifs, so is as good as my arguments. However the only evidence we ever will have is that some random white guy named Neeb won a major tournament the second Kespa pulled out, the first time some random white dude won anything major in SC2. Before that, the expectation was that foreigners would get 0-3 the second they encounter a b-tier Korean even in any tournament. It tells me how the level of competition of non-Kespa koreans was at that time (collapsing, very low), it tells me how much they stopped training compared to their training house days (not much at all). Very likely the competition has been going at a downward spiral ever since. Viewership of SC2 is at 0 literally in Korea. soO literally earned 20 dollars in donation streaming SC2 in 2023. With that in mind, how on earth can you CONVINCINCLY declare that Serral is some kind of exceptional talent if the level of competition is THAT low these days? Yeah sure, he is exceptionally talented if we compare it to the very low number of competition. I would even say that anything these days count as literally 0 in terms of legacy given that even korean pros stopped playing this game at all except for the easy cash grab of participating in some random tournament (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/635605-does-anyone-know-how-kr-pros-practice-these-days). So you have literally 5 foreign dudes left that actually play this game semi-seriously. So with that in mind: How on earth do people come to the conclusion that Serral is some exceptional talent? Please just give me ONE convincing argument. On March 27 2025 07:06 WombaT wrote: You also seem to discount the possibility that Serral is simultaneously really fucking good, and the Kespa pullout damaged the competitiveness and sustainability of the game. Mazepin? Really? It rather looks to me that people have an issue of the idea that Serral only looks fucking good because the level of competition is fucking bad. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28877 Posts
I think a great sc2 player will have skills that let him learn build orders flawlessly and he can have top macro mechanics and good understanding of strategy and tactics through a couple thousand hours of dedicated practice, but the unit control is so different - and such a massive component of being a great brood war player - that it's just not possible to reach flash level in just a couple years. Compare it to professional sports. Sc2 is basketball and brood war is handball. There's a bunch of overlapping skills here - running fast, jumping, being tall and strong, throwing stuff with your hands, they're team sports where you pass to your team mates and try to score goals. But then there's also a bunch of technical skills in terms of ball handling where knowing how to handle a basketball on a professional level does not transfer to handling a handball on a professional level, and this skill takes thousands of hours to master no matter how talented you are. And honestly in terms of unit control I think sc2 and bw might be more different than basketball and handball are. If the world's greatest natural athlete ever picks up a football (soccer) when he's 18 years old, he will never be good enough to play in the premier league (maybe as a goalie). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On March 27 2025 07:26 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: How is it strawmanning? When the entire premise was entirely biased to get to the conclusion that Serral must be some century talent instead of the level of competition being so low that some random 3 white dudes can somehow look good? So far I have yet to see anyone really bring up how the level of competition is a joke in SC2, like it was a joke pre-Kespa. This entire post Kespa argument of Serral being somehow talented and could compete during Kespa days cannot ever be proven and is based on what ifs, so is as good as my arguments. However the only evidence we ever will have is that some random white guy named Neeb won a major tournament the second Kespa pulled out, the first time some random white dude won anything major in SC2. Before that, the expectation was that foreigners would get 0-3 the second they encounter a b-tier Korean even in any tournament. It tells me how the level of competition of non-Kespa koreans was at that time (collapsing, very low), it tells me how much they stopped training compared to their training house days (not much at all). Very likely the competition has been going at a downward spiral ever since. Viewership of SC2 is at 0 literally in Korea. soO literally earned 20 dollars in donation streaming SC2 in 2023. With that in mind, how on earth can you CONVINCINCLY declare that Serral is some kind of exceptional talent if the level of competition is THAT low these days? Yeah sure, he is exceptionally talented if we compare it to the very low number of competition. I would even say that anything these days count as literally 0 in terms of legacy given that even korean pros stopped playing this game at all except for the easy cash grab of participating in some random tournament (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/635605-does-anyone-know-how-kr-pros-practice-these-days). So you have literally 5 foreign dudes left that actually play this game semi-seriously. So with that in mind: How on earth do people come to the conclusion that Serral is some exceptional talent? Please just give me ONE convincing argument. It rather looks to me that people have an issue of the idea that Serral only looks fucking good because the level of competition is fucking bad. Watch him play idk? The guys who were there and doing it at the peak Kespa era all seem to think he’s actually pretty good, I’d imagine they have a decent gauge on such things. It’s a pure hypothetical and I don’t think it would be in any way easy, you’d be talking years, realistically a Serral or a Clem would also need coaching and contacts as well. But they’re clearly talented players, even if not all of their skillset will transfer perfectly to other games | ||
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