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On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
Maxpax is free to do whatever he wants, but he is subject to the court of public opinion if he continues to sign up for offline tourney qualifiers, succeeding and then backing out which forces to tournament organizer to scramble last minute to organize replacements based on short-term visa eligibilities, costs of travel/board, etc. Maxpax is also old enough to understand that he IS obligated to participate in offline tournaments if he KNOWINGLY signs up for a tournament that feeds into an offline event. He is not a "dancing monkey" that is giving free entertainment, he is a professional playing for real money and if being a professional means attending offline events, he should feel compelled to do so.
Sucks for EU protoss fans because the only EU protoss hope keeps blackballing them over and over again. This behaviour from Maxpax is extremely convenient for him and likely nets him money but at the same time negatively impacts the tournament organizers, fans and fellow competitors who may have had a different experience themselves if Maxpax hadn't competed in the first place.
This notion that there should be zero expectation for him to attend offline is silly - Poopi is right in saying it is a shame that this has gone on unchecked for years and has become normalized.
I'm sure he does feel compelled and probably thought out together with his family about going a lot, but clearly there is another voice, a louder voice telling him not to go. If I were to guess, it's about becoming e-famous, his identity going out and having his future ruined for smth happening online.
It does suck for Protoss that he doesn't attend, but it would be way worse, were he not playing at all.
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This is far from the first offline event that he has bailed on after qualifying, it has been happening since his come up years ago. If he knows 100% that he cannot/will not attend an offline event, he should refrain from participating. That’s the unfortunate reality of being a professional.
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Based Maxpax doesn't want to deal with Saudis
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
On July 02 2024 03:40 Durnuu wrote:
Based Maxpax doesn't want to deal with Saudis
I’d love it if that were true, would also explain why they don’t want their name out there haha :p
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I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this?
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On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this?
Since he doesnt attend the offline events, wouldnt this ban be mostly symbolic?
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On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this?
Because the tournaments are not just there to qualify players, but are tournaments standing for themselves. UEFA has banned teams in the past to participate in the European Leagues (like Champions League), still these teams compete in their regional leagues, even though they "mess with the bracket" then.
Also, it seems to be official that he won't be participating, atleast according to Reddit.
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On July 02 2024 05:17 Kreuger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this? Since he doesnt attend the offline events, wouldnt this ban be mostly symbolic?
Not if it also prevents him from playing qualifiers for said tournament, which you'd expect.
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On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this?
The online tournaments that MaxPax plays in aren't qualifiers.
If he played in an explicit qualifer for a tournament that he knew he wouldn't show up for then I'd agree it was an issue, but I don't believe he has ever done that. The ESL Weeklies and the ESL Regionals are not qualifiers: They award points that might qualify you for something else, but they're not qualifiers in-and-of themselves.
It's a completely different situation.
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On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Why would any serious TO allow this?
It s on ESL for using a point system in other, fully online, tournaments. It s normal Maxpax plays those. If ESL had their eswc only quali then I m sure Maxpax wouldn't play in that one.
Anyway a player can do whatever they want, they don't owe you anything. You are a viewer, you are nobody. Maxpax doesnt go offline, good for him. I m sure he has his reasons. It doesn't really screw the bracket because it s a known fact. Some other top players play all those events even though they don't need the points. They also eliminate people left and right. What a dumb take to have honestly. (Poopi too, worse since they re tl staff)
It s between this and him not playing sc2 at all. I d much rather have him continue being awesome online. Stupid comments like here may end up being the last straw for him to just retire.
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On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 06:11 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Classic entitlement at its best Max pax doesn’t owe it anyone to show up to play. Based on your logic. Shame on Maru for not showing up and playing the weekly Cup cause he “owes” it the public But based on your posting history, I ain’t surprised with your mentality Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff. Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene. That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious.
Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker.
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Btw I wonder - would it make it better if he tells organizers (or they ask themselves) beforehand that he won't participate in the offline event if he qualifies? Or maybe if this happens already - if they make it official early.
I guess now everyone expects him to bail out - but why not make it an official fact very early?
This way nobody has to guess or rush to a visa center.
Maybe he can be automatically excluded from standings that show who gets into LANs.
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
Additionally, it’s a much, much bigger economic investment to do offline tournaments. For orgs, for teams, for self-funding players. Especially in a scene where the pot isn’t what it used to be.
So it only makes sense to have online competitions be a key part of the wider ecosystem.
All MaxPax really is ‘guilty’ of is playing a European championship, a competition it makes much, much more sense to play online, that happens to give a ticket to another competition.
If he played in open qualifiers for standalone offline competitions to just practice/warm up or whatever then yeah I’d be highly critical of that. But he’s playing in a standalone, pretty prestige tournament in the only format he’ll compete in, and one that absolutely makes sense to be in that format.
Sure it’s a professional scene but that seems to be a fair enough trade-off. And many an amateur or grass roots sporting scene would become a complete mess if competitors couldn’t compete in x level of competition if they’re not available for some other competition that they’d qualify for.
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Is it confirmed that Maxpax himself only just notified that he's declining his invite?
Or is it simply just that we as the public found out?
It'd be important to get the facts straight. It's possible that he already notified ESL/EWC, and that they already let Spirit and the other players know as well.
On July 01 2024 21:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 21:10 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On July 01 2024 20:17 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 19:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion  But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching. This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways. Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim. As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person. Of course this want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, and indeed it's all about bread and circuses. My post looking grim or not is kinda irrelevant, the discussions going on are interesting though. I mean, you started by explicitly shaming a pro player who 1. provides plenty of online and free entertainment to the community as is, 2. is consistent in their online-only stance and thus very plausibly has underlying causative issues. Trying to wiggle away from it in the name of 'I was just baiting' would be adding cowardice to disrespect IMHO. When people show who they really are (relevant since that's what you're interested in !), I tend to trust them. You're a TL writer. It wouldn't make you a lesser man to simply apologize and move on. I was not baiting anything in particular, just expressing what it feels like to "perform" as a player, I have done it myself several times (a community / group wanting to see you play a particular event). I tackled it as a duty even though a part of me didn't want to do it. It was not necessarily the best decision health wise but it's irrelevant. If MaxPax personally wants a talk about what I said (online | by text) I would be more than happy to discuss the matter, otherwise I don't need nor want to apologize to random lurkers | posters. I am just a bit flabbergasted by the reaction which I find disproportionate, but that's also interesting, it means saying (well, writing, but you know what I mean) what I said (wrote) can bring out that sort of reactions from people. edit: Show nested quote +You can disagree with a player's choice, and I also find it bizarre, but ain't peer pressure or think said player is owing anything. Parts of gaming community are toxic in general, you budget it, but you don't expect a Liquipedia writer to get down the barrel either. Baiting or real mindset. also, I am not a liquipedia writer, it's the second time I saw that mentioned (before being edited later on), it's a bit odd to read that. MyLovelyLurker correctly pointed out that I am TL (well, TLnet) writer, but several users wrote 'liquipedia' writer at some point. What does liquipedia have to do with the forum?
And MaxPax doesn't need random netizens to say shame on him, and act entitled about his personal life and privacy.
It's wild to put a condition on your judgement that he should have to come to you to "discuss the matter" when he owes that to no one. Your privacy is your right.
On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
Maxpax is also old enough to understand that he IS obligated to participate in offline tournaments if he KNOWINGLY signs up for a tournament that feeds into an offline event. He is not a "dancing monkey" that is giving free entertainment, he is a professional playing for real money and if being a professional means attending offline events, he should feel compelled to do so.
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Can you try to explain this part to me because I'm genuinely a bit lost. If you sign up for a tournament that also gives you EPT points or an invite to another tournament, is that alone enough to mean that he's obligated to participate?
And does he self-identify as a professional? Has he said that he plays for money? What if he's playing for fun, and is just really good, and that's why he doesn't seem motivated enough to come to the big offline tournaments with big money?
Is he contracted or employed by a team that requires him to participate in offline events?
Or let's say that he's a professional simply because he does make enough money to count as one, and it doesn't matter what he self-identifies as. So if he's making enough money off just the online events to make a living - then isn't he doing his job as a professional already?
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The only “negative” thing I could see from MaxPax situation is how all those EPT pts are wasted when it could help another EU player, or a few of them, getting closer to being qualified for EWC. Maybe it doesnt matter in this year, but imagine an EU player is 50-60pts behind a KR and he could have made it to EWC if MaxPax wasnt playing. To be clear, I have not heard nor seen ANY player complain about this, its just my personal view.
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Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker.
The Europe Regionals aren't 'qualifiers' per ESL.
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As a fan, very dissapointing.
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On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 06:11 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Classic entitlement at its best Max pax doesn’t owe it anyone to show up to play. Based on your logic. Shame on Maru for not showing up and playing the weekly Cup cause he “owes” it the public But based on your posting history, I ain’t surprised with your mentality Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff. Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene. That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious. Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker.
Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has.
On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right.
Sounds like a skill issue to me.
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On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me.
Yeah, another argument that could be made is:
If a top player abstains from competing, thus allowing players qualify that would have otherwise lost if the best players were competing in the most important tournaments - then did they really deserve to qualify? Or is Maxpax abstaining fucking things up by not defeating the players that should be?
It gets into a weird territory, if the argument is that the best players are obligated to compete at the biggest tournaments that they are able to enter and compete in.
The only way I can see it is that players are free to compete in any tournament (qualifier or not), and accept or decline any invite. Which is what the tournament organizers have allowed.
If anything, the tournament organizer should be criticized for enabling/allowing it. As a competitor, the blame cannot be put onto the player.
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France12904 Posts
Pretty interesting discussions going on, as usual there is quality coming out of TLnet forum even though we might be a bit aggro towards each other at times :D
Given the number of online warriors / cheaters in other esport titles, it'd be pretty funny if the guy was just cheating. Otoh, there are so many ways to enhance performance nowadays that the frontier between "legit" and "cheating" is kinda blurry
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EPT
