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On July 01 2024 17:15 radracer wrote:
Lol at someone saying Artosis is to blame for saying in-person tournies matter more. They always have- and Artosis is not the originator.
A caster can talk about it but not be a total jerk like he was on stream, at least not to the point that some other casters also comment about his specific take ? Very lol to comment against it ? That's the weird part. Esp given he also has a bias against some players and is a fan of others when he should be way more neutral in that aspect.
On July 01 2024 18:05 Infested.rine wrote:
Damn, insane someone thinks someone with talent MUST entretain regular folks with that talent and that the regular folks are owed that.
My lost respect for Poopi just went to Maxpax who has to deal with this type of people.
In some the communities that Poopi is quoting, times have changed and this hounding would be considered bullying. Ultimately players are an equal part of the scene besides the viewership, not a one-way street that this kind of comments imply. That would only change if 50 percent +1 players petition ESL to get him kicked out, and it would still be a bad look for any outside viewer.
On July 01 2024 18:23 Harris1st wrote:
Was he actually fined for declining an invitation? Never heard about that.
For me the only thing I really don't understand about this is the team/ sponsor that is sticking with him and paying salary.
Other than that, why wouldn't he be allowed to play? So many weird and hateful takes in here... shame on you guys
Some are conflating the fact that there are specific rules in place for skipping media duties, with the take that he shouldn't be allowed to play because of repeatedly fouling the rules. When ultimately, he probably paid fines during the 2021-2023 seasons but still was allowed to play.
Being hateful just because he's "denying" opportunities, in any case, do these players deserve to go further in the first place obviously just doesn't count to these commenters.
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Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On July 01 2024 18:32 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 17:15 radracer wrote:
Lol at someone saying Artosis is to blame for saying in-person tournies matter more. They always have- and Artosis is not the originator. A caster can talk about it but not be a total jerk like he was on stream, at least not to the point that some other casters also comment about his specific take ? Very lol to comment against it ? That's the weird part. Esp given he also has a bias against some players and is a fan of others when he should be way more neutral in that aspect. Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 18:05 Infested.rine wrote:
Damn, insane someone thinks someone with talent MUST entretain regular folks with that talent and that the regular folks are owed that.
My lost respect for Poopi just went to Maxpax who has to deal with this type of people. In some the communities that Poopi is quoting, times have changed and this hounding would be considered bullying. Ultimately players are an equal part of the scene besides the viewership, not a one-way street that this kind of comments imply. That would only change if 50 percent +1 players petition ESL to get him kicked out, and it would still be a bad look for any outside viewer. Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 18:23 Harris1st wrote:
Was he actually fined for declining an invitation? Never heard about that.
For me the only thing I really don't understand about this is the team/ sponsor that is sticking with him and paying salary.
Other than that, why wouldn't he be allowed to play? So many weird and hateful takes in here... shame on you guys Some are conflating the fact that there are specific rules in place for skipping media duties, with the take that he shouldn't be allowed to play because of repeatedly fouling the rules. When ultimately, he probably paid fines during the 2021-2023 seasons but still was allowed to play. Being hateful just because he's "denying" opportunities, in any case, do these players deserve to go further in the first place obviously just doesn't count to these commenters.
What did Artosis say anyway?
I get the impression what rules he may be breaking is equivalent to taking a particular parking spot and just taking the fines. So long as you pay the fine you’re OK with doing this, and you’re not transgressing to such a degree that your car has to be towed or clamped etc.
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On July 01 2024 18:57 WombaT wrote:
What did Artosis say anyway?
I get the impression what rules he may be breaking is equivalent to taking a particular parking spot and just taking the fines. So long as you pay the fine you’re OK with doing this, and you’re not transgressing to such a degree that your car has to be towed or clamped etc.
Can be summed up with Artosis saying " Online doesn't count at all to define who's a good player or not, and only Premier offline tournaments on an EPT/WCS circuit do count ", disregarding things like HSC, and Master's Coliseum to a lesser degree btw, and that Open Cups might not even exist even if they bring EPT points.
Otherwise, the image of MaxPax taking a parking spot he shouldn't. The logic was probably : I look at the rules, see what the fines are for skipping media day, make the calculations and decide it's totally fine. And as long he stays within that frame, ESL has no reason to rule further.
Not any different from a footballer who is paid a lower salary by a club just because doesn't want to do interviews after a match, as long there's no personal complaining about it.
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On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion  But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching.
This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways.
Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim.
As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person.
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France12761 Posts
On July 01 2024 19:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching. This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways. Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim. As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person.
Of course this want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, and indeed it's all about bread and circuses.
My post looking grim or not is kinda irrelevant, the discussions going on are interesting though.
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On July 01 2024 12:10 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 11:44 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2024 11:19 CicadaSC wrote:
Declining this $1,000,000 prizepool tournament invitation clearly shows money is not the be all end all for him. If he just wants to be an online hero, fine. He can do that. But at this point he should not be allowed to compete in events that serve as qualifiers for offline events. It completely messes up the bracket and he may end up eliminating people early who would have a real shot at qualifying otherwise. So basically he shouldn't be allowed to compete at all, since most things he competes in are in some ways "qualifier"? Quick question also: If a korean knows he can't compete in the next World Cup, should he drop out of GSL aswell? He will essentially take away points and mess up the bracket. I think it's a grey area, one because GSL is a lan and him competing in world cup would be out of his control, also people given their military service notice typically don't know well ahead of time when the letter will come. A lot of people view GSL as it's own tournament as well, and it would exist without the EPT system so it's kind of different where as the regionals are specifically designed to qualify players from each region into a big offline main event. Also, I think if u do take this stance it could be argued tournaments giving ept points are okay but tourneys which gives direct qualifying spots are not. I don't know, it is for the tournament organizers discretion if any rules were to be amended where exactly they would draw the line but I see ur point and it's a sticky situation.
Considering that ESL Europe awards only 4 Slots, but even the next players after that get almost equivalent money to winning a GSL, it is in my opinion safe to say to not just call them a "qualifier".
Again, if he would jump into something like the Last Chance Qualifier for EWC, just to then decline his spot - that would be a total dick move and I would agree that he shouldn't be allowed to play in it. But the ESL Regionals offer much more than just slots.
Though to be fair, I think there are some examples in sports that could work against MaxPax. If I recall correctly, in Tennis for example all players up to a certain rank are basically forced to play in the Grand Slams (except for injury/illness of course). So a player in the Top 40 or something like that couldn't just say "nah, I don't want to play Grand Slams, I only farm the Masters". But I'm not sure if I would enjoy this kind of ruling for SC2.
Also thanks for those who mentioned that he was probably fined in the past for missing interviews. I always wondered how he managed to avoid that, as I assume ESL is contractually forcing players to participate in interviews as they have since the dawn of time?
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On July 01 2024 20:17 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 19:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching. This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways. Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim. As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person. Of course this want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, and indeed it's all about bread and circuses. My post looking grim or not is kinda irrelevant, the discussions going on are interesting though.
I mean, you started by explicitly shaming a pro player who 1. provides plenty of online and free entertainment to the community as is, 2. is consistent in their online-only stance and thus very plausibly has underlying causative issues. Trying to wiggle away from it in the name of 'I was just baiting' would be adding cowardice to disrespect IMHO.
When people show who they really are (relevant since that's what you're interested in !), I tend to trust them. You're a TL writer. It wouldn't make you a lesser man to simply apologize and move on.
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On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 06:11 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Classic entitlement at its best Max pax doesn’t owe it anyone to show up to play. Based on your logic. Shame on Maru for not showing up and playing the weekly Cup cause he “owes” it the public But based on your posting history, I ain’t surprised with your mentality Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff. Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene. That's a pity.
I echoed the statement. Suddenly someone brought Maru's name while Serral also hasn't participate weekly cup as much as he supposed to.
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On July 01 2024 21:10 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 20:17 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 19:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching. This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways. Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim. As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person. Of course this want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, and indeed it's all about bread and circuses. My post looking grim or not is kinda irrelevant, the discussions going on are interesting though. I mean, you started by explicitly shaming a pro player who 1. provides plenty of online and free entertainment to the community as is, 2. is consistent in their online-only stance and thus very plausibly has underlying causative issues. Trying to wiggle away from it in the name of 'I was just baiting' would be adding cowardice to disrespect IMHO. When people show who they really are (relevant since that's what you're interested in !), I tend to trust them. You're a TL writer. It wouldn't make you a lesser man to simply apologize and move on.
Or more basically, him not thinking his behaviour as problematic hence minimizing it. Because it's simply in line with what many others think in this forum. You won't make them apologize but you'd still think they would maintain a minimum of politeness about it.
You can disagree with a player's choice, and I also find it bizarre, but ain't peer pressure or think said player is owing anything. Parts of gaming community are toxic in general, you budget it, but you don't expect a Liquipedia writer to get down the barrel either. Baiting or real mindset.
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France12761 Posts
On July 01 2024 21:10 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2024 20:17 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 19:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On July 01 2024 16:12 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 15:59 Cyro wrote:Tournament rules are another matter and down to the tournament organiser. I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play This part is the insane take I mean yeah, this part is the good one, it sparks up discussion But it's a stark reality though, people want to see performance. Some people will want to see MaxPax play live and fail, some just want to see what he looks like, others want to know why he was so mysterious until now, some want to see him succeed. But the community is curious about MaxPax, and people at large enjoy watching. This want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, in any shape or form. People have been wanting bread and circuses for thousands of years, doesn't mean I can demand you get down in the arena with a tiger (although I'll pay good money for that at this point). Respect goes both ways. Besides, the fact he's giving up a not-insignificant, for a youngster, amount of basically free money in order not to play should give you pause. I am not one to speculate but if there's a health issue behind this, your post looks pretty grim. As far as tournament rules, responsibility solely lies with organisers, not him. It's up to them to make sure their slots are allocated at best. They should know by now he doesn't show up in person. Of course this want doesn't supersede his right to privacy, and indeed it's all about bread and circuses. My post looking grim or not is kinda irrelevant, the discussions going on are interesting though. I mean, you started by explicitly shaming a pro player who 1. provides plenty of online and free entertainment to the community as is, 2. is consistent in their online-only stance and thus very plausibly has underlying causative issues. Trying to wiggle away from it in the name of 'I was just baiting' would be adding cowardice to disrespect IMHO. When people show who they really are (relevant since that's what you're interested in !), I tend to trust them. You're a TL writer. It wouldn't make you a lesser man to simply apologize and move on.
I was not baiting anything in particular, just expressing what it feels like to "perform" as a player, I have done it myself several times (a community / group wanting to see you play a particular event). I tackled it as a duty even though a part of me didn't want to do it. It was not necessarily the best decision health wise but it's irrelevant.
If MaxPax personally wants a talk about what I said (online | by text) I would be more than happy to discuss the matter, otherwise I don't need nor want to apologize to random lurkers | posters.
I am just a bit flabbergasted by the reaction which I find disproportionate, but that's also interesting, it means saying (well, writing, but you know what I mean) what I said (wrote) can bring out that sort of reactions from people.
edit:
You can disagree with a player's choice, and I also find it bizarre, but ain't peer pressure or think said player is owing anything. Parts of gaming community are toxic in general, you budget it, but you don't expect a Liquipedia writer to get down the barrel either. Baiting or real mindset.
also, I am not a liquipedia writer, it's the second time I saw that mentioned (before being edited later on), it's a bit odd to read that. MyLovelyLurker correctly pointed out that I am TL (well, TLnet) writer, but several users wrote 'liquipedia' writer at some point. What does liquipedia have to do with the forum?
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On July 01 2024 16:08 Kitai wrote:
Just to clarify, in the past has Maxpax been fined simply for declining to participate in things he's qualified for?
I think there was a mandatory player-camera in some online tournaments. He declined to do so and was fined as a result. At least that's how I remembered that. Someone correct me please if I am mistaken.
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You gotta get it right, the players come first as they are the more fundamental component to making a tournament. First comes good players, then comes viewers wanting to watch games. It's also a bit like saying that you have to perform at stages, because you're a good musician or actor. Maybe there is a moral obligation because you have great talent and it's a waste to not use it, but it's absolutely not the case that you owe it to anyone.
Maxpax is my favourite player and the esl mondays have become my main tournament to watch (not joking, it's where protoss can actually win), and it's also his main tournament to play it seems.
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France12761 Posts
The "owe" part was a bad wording on my end, it's more like a waste of talent indeed. I did not realize it sounded so offensive when I used that word, my bad for those who were offended.
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I'm more surprised PSISTORM Gaming is fine with MaxPax not attending a single offline event despite signing him to a hefty contract and calling himself a professional gamer. As others said, he's obligated to compete offline even if the official rules say he can skip them. It's his duty as a professional. MaxPax should not be allowed to compete anymore if he refuses to play offline. It's such a slap to the others who compete offline and worked for their spots in the eSports World Cup.
This is the same as NBA players taking rest days. They're allowed to take rest days but it doesn't mean we, the audience, have to approve of this behaviour. If I paid $500 for my ticket to see LeBron, I will be pissed if LeBron doesn't play.
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wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
Maxpax is free to do whatever he wants, but he is subject to the court of public opinion if he continues to sign up for offline tourney qualifiers, succeeding and then backing out which forces to tournament organizer to scramble last minute to organize replacements based on short-term visa eligibilities, costs of travel/board, etc. Maxpax is also old enough to understand that he IS obligated to participate in offline tournaments if he KNOWINGLY signs up for a tournament that feeds into an offline event. He is not a "dancing monkey" that is giving free entertainment, he is a professional playing for real money and if being a professional means attending offline events, he should feel compelled to do so.
Sucks for EU protoss fans because the only EU protoss hope keeps blackballing them over and over again. This behaviour from Maxpax is extremely convenient for him and likely nets him money but at the same time negatively impacts the tournament organizers, fans and fellow competitors who may have had a different experience themselves if Maxpax hadn't competed in the first place.
This notion that there should be zero expectation for him to attend offline is silly - Poopi is right in saying it is a shame that this has gone on unchecked for years and has become normalized.
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On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
.
When people fire shots at him for poorly wording his opinion even if I do agree that otherwise this is reasonable enough, that should make people think.
Especially when some users rehash the same thing that popped up during EPT Summer 2023 (or it was another event) without giving a damn about whether this is toxic or not. This was already more or less settled back then.
Ramp up the level of trolling so that he gets banned ? They're just giving him more reasons to stay his course.
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France12761 Posts
On July 02 2024 00:52 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
. When people fire shots at him for poorly wording his opinion even if I do agree that otherwise this is reasonable enough, that should make people think. Especially when some users rehash the same thing that popped up during EPT Summer 2023 (or it was another event) without giving a damn about whether this is toxic or not. This was already more or less settled back then. Ramp up the level of trolling so that he gets banned ? They're just giving him more reasons to stay his course.
I mean « Poopi » is gonna become a brand at some point in the future, might as well keep doing what works
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On July 02 2024 01:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 00:52 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
. When people fire shots at him for poorly wording his opinion even if I do agree that otherwise this is reasonable enough, that should make people think. Especially when some users rehash the same thing that popped up during EPT Summer 2023 (or it was another event) without giving a damn about whether this is toxic or not. This was already more or less settled back then. Ramp up the level of trolling so that he gets banned ? They're just giving him more reasons to stay his course. I mean « Poopi » is gonna become a brand at some point in the future, might as well keep doing what works
As long you don't complain too much when taking that approach and receiving stray shots, I actually don't mind it. Some just don't bother about the style and are stomping with their rangers when treading the line is a sport on itself.
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France12761 Posts
On July 02 2024 01:09 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 01:06 Poopi wrote:On July 02 2024 00:52 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 00:29 vult wrote:
wow so many people firing at Poopi for a pretty level headed (albeit poorly worded) opinion.
. When people fire shots at him for poorly wording his opinion even if I do agree that otherwise this is reasonable enough, that should make people think. Especially when some users rehash the same thing that popped up during EPT Summer 2023 (or it was another event) without giving a damn about whether this is toxic or not. This was already more or less settled back then. Ramp up the level of trolling so that he gets banned ? They're just giving him more reasons to stay his course. I mean « Poopi » is gonna become a brand at some point in the future, might as well keep doing what works As long you don't complain too much when taking that approach and receiving stray shots, I actually don't mind it. Some just don't bother about the style and are stomping with their rangers when treading the line is a sport on itself.
I enjoy reading the nickname « Poopi » it’s a cute sounding nickname so seeing it is kinda cool
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Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On July 02 2024 00:08 Poopi wrote:
The "owe" part was a bad wording on my end, it's more like a waste of talent indeed. I did not realize it sounded so offensive when I used that word, my bad for those who were offended.
Because the average level of written English is so high in these hallowed halls, we can somewhat forget that many (the majority) on here aren’t native speakers, and subtleties may be lost. Or hell I misphrase things plenty and it’s my native tongue.
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EPT
