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On July 03 2024 04:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:38 WombaT wrote:On July 03 2024 02:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 02 2024 18:39 Argonauta wrote:On July 02 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
I strongly disagree, I think bringing your best game to the offline tournament, being able to compete in front of crows, with cameras pointing at you is an important layer to judge a player's quality. In football, many young players are promising in the early stages leagues or in training, but when the pressure is on, they got anxious or shaky and cannot perform to their level. Those are players which will never advance to the A team, or will do one match and fumble. +1. Same thing happens with math exams. i've watched people fold like lawn furniture. You’re not really testing their ability to do maths there, but a time-constrained high-pressure examination scenario. Hey it’s a useful life skill to have. But as someone who basically went whistling into various exams (if I could whistle), I definitely outperformed many a peer who outdid me academically prior, and who subsequently outdid me afterwards. Even as a general beneficiary of a relaxed temperament aiding me in the exam environment I think it’s a very flawed way to assess aptitude You are straw manning so I will steel man to provide contrast. Any random, tax-funded, mediocre, general public school that employs weak unqualified mathematicians can create a lousy math exam process. The Actuarial profession does a solid job of evaluating mathematicians via their exam process. Properly structured curriculum coupled with well designed exams do a great job of developing mathematicians and actuarial associates. Just like in sports contests and esports contests some people will fold under pressure. To be alive is to be under pressure.
Mathematics as a research and teaching profession is a world away from being an actuary.
Very strong students will probably do well in whatever format you give, but even potentially good researchers may suck at fast-time pressure tests and good data crunchers may struggle at more involved slow-format research problems.
Solving a problem that you need days for rather than hours is just not something that you can assess in a quick test.
It's also not something you want to be under pressure for (and comparing this sort of thing to competitive sports performance is... not it).
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Northern Ireland24996 Posts
On July 03 2024 04:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:38 WombaT wrote:On July 03 2024 02:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 02 2024 18:39 Argonauta wrote:On July 02 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
I strongly disagree, I think bringing your best game to the offline tournament, being able to compete in front of crows, with cameras pointing at you is an important layer to judge a player's quality. In football, many young players are promising in the early stages leagues or in training, but when the pressure is on, they got anxious or shaky and cannot perform to their level. Those are players which will never advance to the A team, or will do one match and fumble. +1. Same thing happens with math exams. i've watched people fold like lawn furniture. You’re not really testing their ability to do maths there, but a time-constrained high-pressure examination scenario. Hey it’s a useful life skill to have. But as someone who basically went whistling into various exams (if I could whistle), I definitely outperformed many a peer who outdid me academically prior, and who subsequently outdid me afterwards. Even as a general beneficiary of a relaxed temperament aiding me in the exam environment I think it’s a very flawed way to assess aptitude You are straw manning so I will steel man to provide contrast. Any random, tax-funded, mediocre, general public school that employs weak unqualified mathematicians can create a lousy math exam process. The Actuarial profession does a solid job of evaluating mathematicians via their exam process. Properly structured curriculum coupled with well designed exams do a great job of developing mathematicians and actuarial associates. Just like in sports contests and esports contests some people will fold under pressure. To be alive is to be under pressure.
Where was my straw man here?
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On July 03 2024 01:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 18:39 Argonauta wrote:On July 02 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
I strongly disagree, I think bringing your best game to the offline tournament, being able to compete in front of crows, with cameras pointing at you is an important layer to judge a player's quality. In football, many young players are promising in the early stages leagues or in training, but when the pressure is on, they got anxious or shaky and cannot perform to their level. Those are players which will never advance to the A team, or will do one match and fumble. But in your football example, which is a decent one as I’m a football nut and have heard many an awed tale of a ‘training ground monster’, those folks aren’t competing in the real high-stakes competitions. There were very few players I can think of who were say, temporarily top players in Covid times without crowds who dropped off when things returned to normality. Ping is a big component of why offline competition is king, but it’s not really a factor in a European level competition. As I said, dealing with pressure of various kinds is a part of being a great player sure, but it’s measuring your ability to do that, not necessarily how good you are at Starcraft. Also I mean in SC2 you’re somewhat isolated from the crowd while you’re competing anyway so really what you’re adjusting to is travelling and being away from home and your usual routine as much as anything. Whereas in most big sports you have full exposure to potentially hostile crowds, and how you deal with that is something you can’t really avoid I think if you want the absolute best StarCraft and ping isn’t a factor, you maybe get that online, offline you get a better event spectacle wise, enfranchising the fans and it’s a real test of the players’ nerve and ability to deal with inconvenience and pressure. I think it’s perfectly fine to consider either in assessing greatness for sure, but I do think there’s a certain snobbishness against online tournies in our particular scene. And I imagine this is going to be rough when the scene transitions to be more and more online just based on the economics, which I assume is going to become more common. If memory serves for some reason Gamers8 actually had higher ping than many of the Covid era online competitions, so I really hope that isn’t the case again For me MaxPax isn’t a great player but because he hasn’t done it in the biggest high-stakes tournaments, that happen to be offline, not because he hasn’t done it offline
You take that back Wombat!
2nd best Protoss behind herO
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On July 03 2024 01:45 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 18:39 Argonauta wrote:On July 02 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
I strongly disagree, I think bringing your best game to the offline tournament, being able to compete in front of crows, with cameras pointing at you is an important layer to judge a player's quality. In football, many young players are promising in the early stages leagues or in training, but when the pressure is on, they got anxious or shaky and cannot perform to their level. Those are players which will never advance to the A team, or will do one match and fumble. But in your football example, which is a decent one as I’m a football nut and have heard many an awed tale of a ‘training ground monster’, those folks aren’t competing in the real high-stakes competitions. I think if you want the absolute best StarCraft and ping isn’t a factor, you maybe get that online, offline you get a better event spectacle wise, enfranchising the fans and it’s a real test of the players’ nerve and ability to deal with inconvenience and pressure. I think it’s perfectly fine to consider either in assessing greatness for sure, but I do think there’s a certain snobbishness against online tournies in our particular scene. And I imagine this is going to be rough when the scene transitions to be more and more online just based on the economics, which I assume is going to become more common. e
I pull out the football example because I know first hand of a high school friend who was a monster at football but he was drop out of the junior team of the big local club because he was "vomiting before the match" and couldn't handle the nerves and perform. And this is not unique, many 14-15 years old youngsters get call to play preseason with big clubs for the junior leagues, only to drop from the team simply because they cant handle pressure.
The thing is that the absolute best starcraft is the one that is played from the booth with a big title, prizepool on the line, the best starcraft is when you pull out a cheese in a decider game 7 of a finals, not when you cannon rush in a ladder game (despite being your house the best environment for quality and performance).
I dont think is snobery, sure winning in the premier league vs chelsea is very good and all, and is a proof of your overall skill. But winning vs chelsea in the playoffs of the champions league is just a different kind of win. The stakes do matter a lot.
For sure, the more the scene shrinks, the more we need to readjust our calibrations of what a high stakes SC2 match is, but no online play would ever top a blizzcon/katowice arena full of people watching, cheering and chanting your name.
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On July 03 2024 00:56 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 02 2024 23:26 geokilla wrote:On July 02 2024 18:45 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 02:35 Poopi wrote:
Shame on him for not participating in IRL tournaments in general, but I am happy that he didn’t change his behavior because of $$ and just went along with his usual credo.
I am kinda sad for the protoss fans - spectators that we don’t get to see him play in the « real » conditions, having to handle the pressure of live events and still deliver good StarCraft is what makes the difference between good and great players imo Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life? Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 06:11 Blitzball04 wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play
He doesn't, that's a pity
Classic entitlement at its best Max pax doesn’t owe it anyone to show up to play. Based on your logic. Shame on Maru for not showing up and playing the weekly Cup cause he “owes” it the public But based on your posting history, I ain’t surprised with your mentality Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff. Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene. That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious. Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker. Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has. On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me. Some users/players won't make any difference of whether the tournament is considered standalone if it incidentally gives out qualifiers slots. Which is a pretty bad approach since it's not a designated qualifier. Some still naming him as a cheater/hacker because he doesn't show offline is such an overcooked trope. In any case as long ESL continues to allow him to play, I don't see how that flaming continues to pop up each year. ESL is letting him play because we're still under the 2023 rules as the season got extended and didn't end at IEM Katowice. I imagine under the next season's rules, if we have a next season, offline play will be mandatory. Every other esports requires mandatory offline play. Why is SC2 an exception? Also like I said before, PSISTORM Gaming can't be happy with MaxPax dodging offline tournaments. How do you force someone to play offline for an event he never signed up for? That's ridiculous. So what, no one can play ESL Cups anymore except you first sign a contract with ESL that you will, if needed, show up at the next EWC or you will otherwise be fined? ESL weekly cups are open cups. They let anyone sign up knowing anyone under GM will never get enough points to play offline so they have nothing to worry about. Whereas when a professional plays in EPT tournaments, you're subject to their rule book. All I'm saying is that don't be surprised if the rules change next year, if we have a next year.
First of all: After 20 years of experience with ESL I'm 100% sure that if they thought this was an issue, they would have changed it mid-year and didn't bat an eye about it.
But more importantly, can we talk about the implications for this? If there is a korean who knows that in July next year he will be in the military service, should that korean be banned from all GSLs? Because clearly he is wasting space for someone else.
Did Serral knew last year that he would be in the military this year? If yes, he participated in ESL Winter Europe and qualified through that for ESL Spring Europe, for which he had to drop out - yet again wasting the slot.
The only argument that I have read so far that works against MaxPax is that he is blocking points for the Global Ranking that someone else could attain. But that is such a miniscule problem tbh...
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France12783 Posts
Hard agree @Argonauta.
That’s what I was explaining to my friend who was a casual platinum protoss in WoL and barely following sc2 anymore, watching replays on YouTube of some events from time to time.
We were watching herO vs Maru at Dallas which was a highly disputed series and the stakes were high for herO. I had to explain to him that basically, the games you saw of MaxPax from the small online cups or in DH:EU without even Serral or Reynor aren’t that meaningful. This series between Maru and herO though, it was game 7 and you could feel in the gameplay of both players that they didn’t want to throw away things.
That’s why they seemed so timid at times, which you could exploit. Series such as this are the real StarCraft where it matters to perform. So I was basically telling him that MaxPax protoss gameplay wasn’t meaningful to look at since sport / esport is about handling pressure / emotions. If you want to see « technically » good StarCraft, you could just watch AI battle it out which isn’t very interesting.
On the other hand, players having to shake hands with their opponent, able to look at each other in between games, or feel the energy of the crowd, that’s what competition is all about.
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Lucky HeRoMaRiNe, got guaranteed $15k thx to MaxPax withdrawing
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Northern Ireland24996 Posts
On July 03 2024 07:16 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 01:45 WombaT wrote:On July 02 2024 18:39 Argonauta wrote:On July 02 2024 07:26 WombaT wrote:
Do I like offline competitions? Absolutely, there’s some extra elements there, crowds and hype, people having to rise to additional challenges.
Equally I mean, those extra challenges aren’t really who is the best at the game itself.
I strongly disagree, I think bringing your best game to the offline tournament, being able to compete in front of crows, with cameras pointing at you is an important layer to judge a player's quality. In football, many young players are promising in the early stages leagues or in training, but when the pressure is on, they got anxious or shaky and cannot perform to their level. Those are players which will never advance to the A team, or will do one match and fumble. But in your football example, which is a decent one as I’m a football nut and have heard many an awed tale of a ‘training ground monster’, those folks aren’t competing in the real high-stakes competitions. There were very few players I can think of who were say, temporarily top players in Covid times without crowds who dropped off when things returned to normality. Ping is a big component of why offline competition is king, but it’s not really a factor in a European level competition. As I said, dealing with pressure of various kinds is a part of being a great player sure, but it’s measuring your ability to do that, not necessarily how good you are at Starcraft. Also I mean in SC2 you’re somewhat isolated from the crowd while you’re competing anyway so really what you’re adjusting to is travelling and being away from home and your usual routine as much as anything. Whereas in most big sports you have full exposure to potentially hostile crowds, and how you deal with that is something you can’t really avoid I think if you want the absolute best StarCraft and ping isn’t a factor, you maybe get that online, offline you get a better event spectacle wise, enfranchising the fans and it’s a real test of the players’ nerve and ability to deal with inconvenience and pressure. I think it’s perfectly fine to consider either in assessing greatness for sure, but I do think there’s a certain snobbishness against online tournies in our particular scene. And I imagine this is going to be rough when the scene transitions to be more and more online just based on the economics, which I assume is going to become more common. If memory serves for some reason Gamers8 actually had higher ping than many of the Covid era online competitions, so I really hope that isn’t the case again For me MaxPax isn’t a great player but because he hasn’t done it in the biggest high-stakes tournaments, that happen to be offline, not because he hasn’t done it offline You take that back Wombat! 2nd best Protoss behind herO
I shall not, they’re maybe the 2nd best Toss currently, maybe even the best in terms of level, but they haven’t done anything that traditionally defines a great player in the scene.
They haven’t even won an EU regional yet, not even one where Serral was absent and Reynor was playing with ping from Korea.
They’re a very good player but they need a lot more on the resume to be a great one IMO
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Northern Ireland24996 Posts
On July 03 2024 08:39 Poopi wrote:
Hard agree @Argonauta.
That’s what I was explaining to my friend who was a casual platinum protoss in WoL and barely following sc2 anymore, watching replays on YouTube of some events from time to time.
We were watching herO vs Maru at Dallas which was a highly disputed series and the stakes were high for herO. I had to explain to him that basically, the games you saw of MaxPax from the small online cups or in DH:EU without even Serral or Reynor aren’t that meaningful. This series between Maru and herO though, it was game 7 and you could feel in the gameplay of both players that they didn’t want to throw away things.
That’s why they seemed so timid at times, which you could exploit. Series such as this are the real StarCraft where it matters to perform. So I was basically telling him that MaxPax protoss gameplay wasn’t meaningful to look at since sport / esport is about handling pressure / emotions. If you want to see « technically » good StarCraft, you could just watch AI battle it out which isn’t very interesting.
On the other hand, players having to shake hands with their opponent, able to look at each other in between games, or feel the energy of the crowd, that’s what competition is all about.
Yourself and Argonauta are comparing low-stakes matches that happen to be online with high-stakes offline matches, it’s apple and oranges
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On July 03 2024 08:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 08:39 Poopi wrote:
Hard agree @Argonauta.
That’s what I was explaining to my friend who was a casual platinum protoss in WoL and barely following sc2 anymore, watching replays on YouTube of some events from time to time.
We were watching herO vs Maru at Dallas which was a highly disputed series and the stakes were high for herO. I had to explain to him that basically, the games you saw of MaxPax from the small online cups or in DH:EU without even Serral or Reynor aren’t that meaningful. This series between Maru and herO though, it was game 7 and you could feel in the gameplay of both players that they didn’t want to throw away things.
That’s why they seemed so timid at times, which you could exploit. Series such as this are the real StarCraft where it matters to perform. So I was basically telling him that MaxPax protoss gameplay wasn’t meaningful to look at since sport / esport is about handling pressure / emotions. If you want to see « technically » good StarCraft, you could just watch AI battle it out which isn’t very interesting.
On the other hand, players having to shake hands with their opponent, able to look at each other in between games, or feel the energy of the crowd, that’s what competition is all about. Yourself and Argonauta are comparing low-stakes matches that happen to be online with high-stakes offline matches, it’s apple and oranges
True, I was doing that comparison because is easier to visualize, but to a similar degree, this can be applied to offline vs online performances even with the same "stakes" on play. The crow, the fact that you can turn your head and look at your opponent, the lights shinning on your head, all of that matters and matters a lot. As poopi said, if you want to watch perfectly executed SC2 you can always put IA to battle each other.
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On July 02 2024 19:45 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 19:41 Zergiica wrote:
i would just suspend him from every EPT event because he takes spot to someone. he should seek therapy or something. i don't know his issues but there is no point he is allowed to play online tournaments where major prize is offline event. If people are annoyed that MaxPax is taking "their" spot, then they should get better and beat him. As for the "major prize" being qualification for an offline event, I'm pretty sure that the "major prize" in most tournaments is the money, and that qualification for an offline event is an additional bonus. For the umpteenth time, I'd love to see where MaxPax has played in a tournament were the only outcome of winning was qualification for an offline event that he had no intention of attending, because I don't think that he ever has. EDIT: Saying that MaxPax needs to "seek therapy" is pretty gauche. EDIT2: I'm beginning to think that some people are just mad that a Protoss has the audacity to win something and want to see it stopped. Only Terran and Zerg allowed at the top table lmao... I know, I know, I'm being facetious... I'll go and get my tin foil hat!
ok, you can be angry but the thing is, he doesn't wanna compete on the highest level because of his issues. he is a great player and it is a loss not having him there. i think suspending him from online tournaments that lead to offline tournaments would maybe be some sort of motivation for him to get out of the comfort zone. he obviously wants and likes to compete.
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On July 03 2024 08:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 00:56 geokilla wrote:On July 03 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 02 2024 23:26 geokilla wrote:On July 02 2024 18:45 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 03:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
Shame ON him? Who are you to judge what he does with his life?
Or did you mean shame OF him? I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play He doesn't, that's a pity Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:On July 01 2024 06:11 Blitzball04 wrote:
[quote]
Classic entitlement at its best
Max pax doesn’t owe it anyone to show up to play.
Based on your logic. Shame on Maru for not showing up and playing the weekly Cup cause he “owes” it the public
But based on your posting history, I ain’t surprised with your mentality Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff. Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene. That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious. Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker. Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has. On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me. Some users/players won't make any difference of whether the tournament is considered standalone if it incidentally gives out qualifiers slots. Which is a pretty bad approach since it's not a designated qualifier. Some still naming him as a cheater/hacker because he doesn't show offline is such an overcooked trope. In any case as long ESL continues to allow him to play, I don't see how that flaming continues to pop up each year. ESL is letting him play because we're still under the 2023 rules as the season got extended and didn't end at IEM Katowice. I imagine under the next season's rules, if we have a next season, offline play will be mandatory. Every other esports requires mandatory offline play. Why is SC2 an exception? Also like I said before, PSISTORM Gaming can't be happy with MaxPax dodging offline tournaments. How do you force someone to play offline for an event he never signed up for? That's ridiculous. So what, no one can play ESL Cups anymore except you first sign a contract with ESL that you will, if needed, show up at the next EWC or you will otherwise be fined? ESL weekly cups are open cups. They let anyone sign up knowing anyone under GM will never get enough points to play offline so they have nothing to worry about. Whereas when a professional plays in EPT tournaments, you're subject to their rule book. All I'm saying is that don't be surprised if the rules change next year, if we have a next year. First of all: After 20 years of experience with ESL I'm 100% sure that if they thought this was an issue, they would have changed it mid-year and didn't bat an eye about it. But more importantly, can we talk about the implications for this? If there is a korean who knows that in July next year he will be in the military service, should that korean be banned from all GSLs? Because clearly he is wasting space for someone else. Did Serral knew last year that he would be in the military this year? If yes, he participated in ESL Winter Europe and qualified through that for ESL Spring Europe, for which he had to drop out - yet again wasting the slot. The only argument that I have read so far that works against MaxPax is that he is blocking points for the Global Ranking that someone else could attain. But that is such a miniscule problem tbh...
going to military or having any RL obligation/illness/tragedy is not same as don't wanna go on purpose or at any condition. so, that example is wrong and of course koreans or serral or shouldn't be banned. they are here, they care for a game, fans and the whole show. maxpax doesn't.
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On July 03 2024 17:16 Zergiica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 08:35 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2024 00:56 geokilla wrote:On July 03 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 02 2024 23:26 geokilla wrote:On July 02 2024 18:45 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play
He doesn't, that's a pity
Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff.
Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene.
That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious. Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker. Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has. On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me. Some users/players won't make any difference of whether the tournament is considered standalone if it incidentally gives out qualifiers slots. Which is a pretty bad approach since it's not a designated qualifier. Some still naming him as a cheater/hacker because he doesn't show offline is such an overcooked trope. In any case as long ESL continues to allow him to play, I don't see how that flaming continues to pop up each year. ESL is letting him play because we're still under the 2023 rules as the season got extended and didn't end at IEM Katowice. I imagine under the next season's rules, if we have a next season, offline play will be mandatory. Every other esports requires mandatory offline play. Why is SC2 an exception? Also like I said before, PSISTORM Gaming can't be happy with MaxPax dodging offline tournaments. How do you force someone to play offline for an event he never signed up for? That's ridiculous. So what, no one can play ESL Cups anymore except you first sign a contract with ESL that you will, if needed, show up at the next EWC or you will otherwise be fined? ESL weekly cups are open cups. They let anyone sign up knowing anyone under GM will never get enough points to play offline so they have nothing to worry about. Whereas when a professional plays in EPT tournaments, you're subject to their rule book. All I'm saying is that don't be surprised if the rules change next year, if we have a next year. First of all: After 20 years of experience with ESL I'm 100% sure that if they thought this was an issue, they would have changed it mid-year and didn't bat an eye about it. But more importantly, can we talk about the implications for this? If there is a korean who knows that in July next year he will be in the military service, should that korean be banned from all GSLs? Because clearly he is wasting space for someone else. Did Serral knew last year that he would be in the military this year? If yes, he participated in ESL Winter Europe and qualified through that for ESL Spring Europe, for which he had to drop out - yet again wasting the slot. The only argument that I have read so far that works against MaxPax is that he is blocking points for the Global Ranking that someone else could attain. But that is such a miniscule problem tbh... going to military or having any RL obligation/illness/tragedy is not same as don't wanna go on purpose or at any condition. so, that example is wrong and of course koreans or serral or shouldn't be banned. they are here, they care for a game, fans and the whole show. maxpax doesn't.
so what makes a difference as to whether you should allowed to compete in these so-called qualifiers, knowing that you won't be able to compete in the offline events that you qualify for, is how much you, supposedly, "care for the game"?
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France12783 Posts
On July 03 2024 17:12 Zergiica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 19:45 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 19:41 Zergiica wrote:
i would just suspend him from every EPT event because he takes spot to someone. he should seek therapy or something. i don't know his issues but there is no point he is allowed to play online tournaments where major prize is offline event. If people are annoyed that MaxPax is taking "their" spot, then they should get better and beat him. As for the "major prize" being qualification for an offline event, I'm pretty sure that the "major prize" in most tournaments is the money, and that qualification for an offline event is an additional bonus. For the umpteenth time, I'd love to see where MaxPax has played in a tournament were the only outcome of winning was qualification for an offline event that he had no intention of attending, because I don't think that he ever has. EDIT: Saying that MaxPax needs to "seek therapy" is pretty gauche. EDIT2: I'm beginning to think that some people are just mad that a Protoss has the audacity to win something and want to see it stopped. Only Terran and Zerg allowed at the top table lmao... I know, I know, I'm being facetious... I'll go and get my tin foil hat! ok, you can be angry but the thing is, he doesn't wanna compete on the highest level because of his issues. he is a great player and it is a loss not having him there. i think suspending him from online tournaments that lead to offline tournaments would maybe be some sort of motivation for him to get out of the comfort zone. he obviously wants and likes to compete.
I don't think it's been "public" that it's issues. The official reason is not known afaik, there are multiple credible hypothesis
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On July 03 2024 17:24 thekaas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 17:16 Zergiica wrote:On July 03 2024 08:35 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2024 00:56 geokilla wrote:On July 03 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 02 2024 23:26 geokilla wrote:On July 02 2024 18:45 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take.
Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!!
Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish.
[quote]
1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to.
Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for?
2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem.
3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that?
Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites!
Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious.
Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker. Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has. On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me. Some users/players won't make any difference of whether the tournament is considered standalone if it incidentally gives out qualifiers slots. Which is a pretty bad approach since it's not a designated qualifier. Some still naming him as a cheater/hacker because he doesn't show offline is such an overcooked trope. In any case as long ESL continues to allow him to play, I don't see how that flaming continues to pop up each year. ESL is letting him play because we're still under the 2023 rules as the season got extended and didn't end at IEM Katowice. I imagine under the next season's rules, if we have a next season, offline play will be mandatory. Every other esports requires mandatory offline play. Why is SC2 an exception? Also like I said before, PSISTORM Gaming can't be happy with MaxPax dodging offline tournaments. How do you force someone to play offline for an event he never signed up for? That's ridiculous. So what, no one can play ESL Cups anymore except you first sign a contract with ESL that you will, if needed, show up at the next EWC or you will otherwise be fined? ESL weekly cups are open cups. They let anyone sign up knowing anyone under GM will never get enough points to play offline so they have nothing to worry about. Whereas when a professional plays in EPT tournaments, you're subject to their rule book. All I'm saying is that don't be surprised if the rules change next year, if we have a next year. First of all: After 20 years of experience with ESL I'm 100% sure that if they thought this was an issue, they would have changed it mid-year and didn't bat an eye about it. But more importantly, can we talk about the implications for this? If there is a korean who knows that in July next year he will be in the military service, should that korean be banned from all GSLs? Because clearly he is wasting space for someone else. Did Serral knew last year that he would be in the military this year? If yes, he participated in ESL Winter Europe and qualified through that for ESL Spring Europe, for which he had to drop out - yet again wasting the slot. The only argument that I have read so far that works against MaxPax is that he is blocking points for the Global Ranking that someone else could attain. But that is such a miniscule problem tbh... going to military or having any RL obligation/illness/tragedy is not same as don't wanna go on purpose or at any condition. so, that example is wrong and of course koreans or serral or shouldn't be banned. they are here, they care for a game, fans and the whole show. maxpax doesn't. so what makes a difference as to whether you should allowed to compete in these so-called qualifiers, knowing that you won't be able to compete in the offline events that you qualify for, is how much you, supposedly, "care for the game"?
difference is he doesn't want it and he will not do it. they will. they would even play during their service and at any time if they have a chance. so, only things that prevents them from playing are those they have no influence. did i miss something, maxpax had enough respect to explain his situation?
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On July 03 2024 17:12 Zergiica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 19:45 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 19:41 Zergiica wrote:
i would just suspend him from every EPT event because he takes spot to someone. he should seek therapy or something. i don't know his issues but there is no point he is allowed to play online tournaments where major prize is offline event. If people are annoyed that MaxPax is taking "their" spot, then they should get better and beat him. As for the "major prize" being qualification for an offline event, I'm pretty sure that the "major prize" in most tournaments is the money, and that qualification for an offline event is an additional bonus. For the umpteenth time, I'd love to see where MaxPax has played in a tournament were the only outcome of winning was qualification for an offline event that he had no intention of attending, because I don't think that he ever has. EDIT: Saying that MaxPax needs to "seek therapy" is pretty gauche. EDIT2: I'm beginning to think that some people are just mad that a Protoss has the audacity to win something and want to see it stopped. Only Terran and Zerg allowed at the top table lmao... I know, I know, I'm being facetious... I'll go and get my tin foil hat! ok, you can be angry but the thing is, he doesn't wanna compete on the highest level because of his issues. he is a great player and it is a loss not having him there. i think suspending him from online tournaments that lead to offline tournaments would maybe be some sort of motivation for him to get out of the comfort zone. he obviously wants and likes to compete.
When was I angry?
We don't know why MaxPax isn't competing in tournaments. It could be for a plethora of reasons that have nothing to do with his mental health. It's asinine to suggest that MaxPax needs to seek therapy just because he doesn't appear at offline events.
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The kind of accusations against Maxpax is getting kinda crazy... like, the implications that arise make it impossible to find any kind of consistent logic as to when it's OK to miss tournaments and when it's not.
We don't know the reason why he doesn't go, or why he seemingly notifies late (still dunno if he is or if it's just ESL announcing it to the public late). Perhaps there was a chance, but he only found out late that he can't go or that it would not be a wise decision to go.
It could be that he can't feasibly go, or he can easily go but isn't interested enough.
Either way, we shouldn't be barging into his privacy demanding answers if he doesn't feel comfortable explaining, or making accusations on things we don't know.
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On July 03 2024 17:16 Zergiica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 08:35 Balnazza wrote:On July 03 2024 00:56 geokilla wrote:On July 03 2024 00:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 02 2024 23:26 geokilla wrote:On July 02 2024 18:45 Philippe wrote:On July 02 2024 14:31 MJG wrote:On July 02 2024 07:09 Maksim2010 wrote:On July 01 2024 09:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 01 2024 03:22 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
I mean shame on him, when you are at that level of gameplay you owe it to the game/public to actually show up and play
He doesn't, that's a pity
Ok and I'd like you to show up to a comedy show and make jokes for us because this is a very funny take. Don't want to? Too bad!! You're obligated!! Seriously who do you think you are to demand what someone does with their life, especially when it's simply for your own entertainment? How incredibly entitled, vain, and selfish. On July 01 2024 06:16 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Don't sign up for things where you are supposed to go LAN afterwards if you don't intend to actually go to the LAN if you qualify. It's fine if you don't want to go to LAN, then don't participate at all in the qualifiers and stuff.
Some players such as the Chinese players who really wanted to go, but couldn't make it due to visa issues / other problems were prevented to play despite them wanting to come, and this guy is wasting slots over and over again, in the latest years of the scene.
That's a pity. 1) No one is "supposed to" show up to another tournament they qualified to. Where in the rules does it say players are required to, or supposed to show up to any other events they qualify for? 2) Chinese players having challenges trying to attend or qualify is not Maxpax's problem. 3) No one got their spots stolen. Maxpax isn't wasting any slots. The slots are redistributed to other players based on an already defined system that the players are aware of. The money that he doesn't want is going to someone else that does want it. Where's the shame in that? Seems like the tournament organizer accounted for and allowed players to decide whether to accept their invite to EWC. Good thing the tournament organizer also defined a system that would redistribute any declined invites! Would you say shame on any other player who decided to decline, such as if they have issues competing in a tournament hosted by the Saudi state, or because they have concerns about their personal safety? I'm genuinely curious. Its not a one time thing. He does it again and again. He should stop attend at qualifiers he has no intention of playing as others who will participate will could qualify instead .We dont know the reason he doesnt play offline he could also be a cheater/hacker. Please show me when he played in a pure qualifier for an offline event because I'm fairly sure he never has. On July 02 2024 05:12 followZeRoX wrote:
I'd honestly ban him from participating from all non-online events. He messes up with the brackets eliminating players who'd potentially go to LAN left and right. Sounds like a skill issue to me. Some users/players won't make any difference of whether the tournament is considered standalone if it incidentally gives out qualifiers slots. Which is a pretty bad approach since it's not a designated qualifier. Some still naming him as a cheater/hacker because he doesn't show offline is such an overcooked trope. In any case as long ESL continues to allow him to play, I don't see how that flaming continues to pop up each year. ESL is letting him play because we're still under the 2023 rules as the season got extended and didn't end at IEM Katowice. I imagine under the next season's rules, if we have a next season, offline play will be mandatory. Every other esports requires mandatory offline play. Why is SC2 an exception? Also like I said before, PSISTORM Gaming can't be happy with MaxPax dodging offline tournaments. How do you force someone to play offline for an event he never signed up for? That's ridiculous. So what, no one can play ESL Cups anymore except you first sign a contract with ESL that you will, if needed, show up at the next EWC or you will otherwise be fined? ESL weekly cups are open cups. They let anyone sign up knowing anyone under GM will never get enough points to play offline so they have nothing to worry about. Whereas when a professional plays in EPT tournaments, you're subject to their rule book. All I'm saying is that don't be surprised if the rules change next year, if we have a next year. First of all: After 20 years of experience with ESL I'm 100% sure that if they thought this was an issue, they would have changed it mid-year and didn't bat an eye about it. But more importantly, can we talk about the implications for this? If there is a korean who knows that in July next year he will be in the military service, should that korean be banned from all GSLs? Because clearly he is wasting space for someone else. Did Serral knew last year that he would be in the military this year? If yes, he participated in ESL Winter Europe and qualified through that for ESL Spring Europe, for which he had to drop out - yet again wasting the slot. The only argument that I have read so far that works against MaxPax is that he is blocking points for the Global Ranking that someone else could attain. But that is such a miniscule problem tbh... going to military or having any RL obligation/illness/tragedy is not same as don't wanna go on purpose or at any condition. so, that example is wrong and of course koreans or serral or shouldn't be banned. they are here, they care for a game, fans and the whole show. maxpax doesn't.
And yet, the result is the same. If we think of ESL Regionals and GSL purely as qualifiers, as some people here do, your attendance when you know you won't make it to the Masters or World Cup essentially means you are wasting the slot. Doesn't matter what the reason is - if you know it in advance, you shouldn't play...that is the opinion voiced here. And that is the opinion that some apparently want written down in the rules aswell.
On July 03 2024 08:42 elKa-ThE-FeArEd wrote:
Lucky HeRoMaRiNe, got guaranteed $15k thx to MaxPax withdrawing
Heromarine was already qualified, it's Spirit who got the extra spot
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The difference is that, these players missing the events due to circumstances out of their control. And it would be the first time, or 2nd time if that happened. Meanwhile MaxPax has showed repeatedly that he wont play in the offline tournaments, I believe repeated "offenders" normally got treated differently in general public?
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EPT
