EPTUS Politics Mega-Blog - Page 67
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12363 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 03 2018 03:54 IgnE wrote: lol aragorn youve got to be kidding me isnt there a bit of a contradiction here between “china is more capitalist than communist at this point,” and “but its communist party interferes quite liberally [a double entendre??] with many of their markets” I didn't say that it was more capitalist than communist. What I said is that it's an authoritarian regime employing a quasi-market economy, which is consistent with my later statement that it interferes quite liberally [yes, the diction was intentional] with many of their markets. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 03 2018 06:23 IgnE wrote: “authoritarian” seems like a distinction without a difference when comparing USSR to China Both the USSR and China were/are authoritarian. Where the difference lies is that China has made an effort to free up its markets, whereas the USSR kept tight central planning over its economy. So if we were to place China and the USSR on a "freedom spectrum," I would certainly place both on the authoritarian side of the spectrum, but China would be closer to the freedom side given its economic policies. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 03 2018 06:23 IgnE wrote: “authoritarian” seems like a distinction without a difference when comparing USSR to China China is authoritarian, just the polite version that doesn’t scare off investment from foreign counties. Like the Saudi Arabia of the past. https://www.npr.org/2018/10/31/662696776/what-its-like-to-be-on-the-blacklist-in-chinas-new-social-credit-system They are going full 1984 authoritarian, complete with big brother and social ratings. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23488 Posts
On November 03 2018 08:41 Plansix wrote: China is authoritarian, just the polite version that doesn’t scare off investment from foreign counties. Like the Saudi Arabia of the past. https://www.npr.org/2018/10/31/662696776/what-its-like-to-be-on-the-blacklist-in-chinas-new-social-credit-system They are going full 1984 authoritarian, complete with big brother and social ratings. That doesn't sound "full 1984 authoritarian" to me. It sounds like a much better system than how Trump did it with just claiming bankruptcy and destroying thousands of livelihoods and coming out wealthier and with more access to loans (and eventually the presidency). Imagine if we put his face up on shame boards the first few times he ran a "business" into the ground. The guy getting interviewed sounds like an exploitative jerk that got caught with his pants down and now somehow NPR turned it into a sob story where we're supposed to feel bad for the guy, why I don't know? EDIT: What do we call it when we have to define "high speed trains" differently than the rest of the world so we can claim we have some? Since 0 Americans get to ride the type of train in the US that he's complaining about not riding in 1984 authoritarian China. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
Cut regulations (especially the environmental ones) and other red tape, and it would be a lot easier to build high speed rail in the US. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23488 Posts
On November 03 2018 10:36 xDaunt wrote: China has high speed rail because 1) it has a centralized government that made it happen at all cost, and 2) it has sufficient demographics to support it. I have been on the high speed rail over there. It is quite nice. Cut regulations (especially the environmental ones) and other red tape, and it would be a lot easier to build high speed rail in the US. I've heard a lot of arguments about why the US doesn't have high-speed rail but I've never seen the argument that the regulations "and other red tape" was the issue. We can barely keep the rail transit we have safe, the idea that less regulation and attention to detail would make the difference sounds more like reflexive conservative positioning rather than something based in analysis of the situation. What do you mean by "the demographics to support it" When you say "it's quite nice" but then credit central planning and less regulations (like worker protections), are you suggesting that you would prefer the US cut regulations (like worker protections) and make it like a Hoover Dam project or just suggesting that shitty trains is a price we pay for our lack of central planning and regulations that you value? | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On November 03 2018 03:19 xDaunt wrote: Yeah, my terminology was a little sloppy. I was referring to the political application of Marxism more than the educational application. I'm well aware that "cultural Marxism" very much predates the fall of the USSR. Honestly this just seems like a simple case of exoteric bastardization of esoteric knowledge. Granted, in this case Marx wrote Das Capital to be read by the working class. That was the presumed reader. The problem is that nowadays you cannot presume a reader. People don't read anymore. The way some people talk you would think that Plato and Aristotle are just old fogies who have been superseded by more contemporary thinkers like Mark Zuckerberg. We live in a time where Jordan fucking Peterson is perhaps the most well-known "public intellectual," and you have ostensibly educated, sophisticated interviewers that get totally trounced by him on taped interviews. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Then you're just back at the self-help book level of taking responsibility for your own life's outcomes, with a side of not throwing everything traditional under the post-modern bus. Then again, the sanctimonious university culture and one manifestation of identity politics within culture is widespread. It could be several more years. How long is the duration of the higher education bubble, seriously? How long is Islam the religion and society you can't just criticize openly as uniquely bad among the established religions/societies? I thought the cultural-political victory that Trump accomplished was still a decade off, so I'm going to take a back seat to prognosticating when the oppressor/oppressed/champion-of-the-oppressed motif fades and people like Peterson go back to niche recognition in psychology. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9728 Posts
On November 03 2018 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote: That doesn't sound "full 1984 authoritarian" to me. It sounds like a much better system than how Trump did it with just claiming bankruptcy and destroying thousands of livelihoods and coming out wealthier and with more access to loans (and eventually the presidency). Imagine if we put his face up on shame boards the first few times he ran a "business" into the ground. The guy getting interviewed sounds like an exploitative jerk that got caught with his pants down and now somehow NPR turned it into a sob story where we're supposed to feel bad for the guy, why I don't know? EDIT: What do we call it when we have to define "high speed trains" differently than the rest of the world so we can claim we have some? Since 0 Americans get to ride the type of train in the US that he's complaining about not riding in 1984 authoritarian China. China has just put somewhere near a million muslims in 'reeducation centers' where they are tortured into rescinding their faith. Full on 1984 I'm afraid. Here's a link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23488 Posts
On November 03 2018 15:16 Jockmcplop wrote: China has just put somewhere near a million muslims in 'reeducation centers' where they are tortured into rescinding their faith. Full on 1984 I'm afraid. There are more than 10x more Mosques in China than there are in the US (no they don't have 10x more Muslims), I'd say they are largely more tolerant of Muslims than we are. The Muslim "reeducation centers" sound mostly like sensationalized fearmongering to me. Like the NPR story P6 linked about some Chinese millionaire getting "sorta blacklisted" They don't seem "full on 1984" to me at all and I'm starting to wonder what you guys even mean when you say that. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9728 Posts
On November 03 2018 15:35 GreenHorizons wrote: There are more than 10x more Mosques in China than there are in the US (no they don't have 10x more Muslims), I'd say they are largely more tolerant of Muslims than we are. The Muslim "reeducation centers" sound mostly like sensationalized fearmongering to me. Like the NPR story P6 linked about some Chinese millionaire getting "sorta blacklisted" They don't seem "full on 1984" to me at all and I'm starting to wonder what you guys even mean when you say that. I've put a link there that has testimony from people who've been through the system, people who's families just disappeared off the face of the planet.It has satellite images of the huge prisons being built incredibly quickly. For what you are saying to be true the BBC would literally have to making this whole thing up - which they clearly aren't. Forcing hundreds of thousands of people - exclusively of a single religion - into prison without trial and torturing them for thought crimes is the kind of thing that would normally bring comparisons to 1984. These places are concentration camps for muslims. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23488 Posts
On November 03 2018 15:43 Jockmcplop wrote: I've put a link there that has testimony from people who've been through the system, people who's families just disappeared off the face of the planet.It has satellite images of the huge prisons being built incredibly quickly. For what you are saying to be true the BBC would literally have to making this whole thing up - which they clearly aren't. Forcing hundreds of thousands of people - exclusively of a single religion - into prison without trial and torturing them for thought crimes is the kind of thing that would normally bring comparisons to 1984. These places are concentration camps for muslims. They wouldn't have to be making it up, they would simply be reporting what the same ~8 people told a bunch of news outlets and satellite images of buildings combined with the lack of information they obtained in their travels. Truth is that there's a long standing beef between the Han and Uighur and a bunch of resources the capitalists in China want to get without cutting in the Uighur people living on them. What's going on there does look remarkably similar to the Drug war in the US with Islam replacing drugs and profit supplanting politics to me, though hardly the dystopian narrative suggested by the 1984 references. Here's how it was talked about ~4 years ago: Pollution is only one consequence of resource exploitation for the region’s residents, a plurality of whom are Uighurs, a largely Muslim, Turkic-speaking population. The region’s energy wealth flows mainly to the state-owned oil companies in Beijing and to the Communist Party, dominated by ethnic Han. Last year, Karamay — which means “black oil” in the Uighur language and where, in 1955, China’s first large oil field was discovered — had the highest per-capita gross domestic product of mainland Chinese cities. PetroChina’s refinery here is the company’s most profitable one, said Zhen Xinping, a senior engineer. It processes six million tons of oil per year. Despite the oil boom, this town of 400,000 is modest, and some Uighur neighborhoods are poorer than Han ones. Uighur farmers live in a slum where homes lack indoor toilets. The oil companies employ some Uighurs, but not many. Many Uighurs say they resent Han rule and the reaping of their homeland’s resources. Ethnic and class tensions can flare here, as they do elsewhere in Xinjiang. A fragmented Uighur insurgency is gaining in intensity across the region, and hundreds of people have died this year in ethnic violence, domestic terrorism and police shootings. Over the summer, local officials imposed a rule banning people with Islamic dress and long beards from boarding public buses and ordered taxi drivers not to pick them up. Though the government said it issued the rules in the name of security, many Uighurs see nothing but discrimination. www.nytimes.com They're making it sound worse than what Israel is doing to Palestine because they aren't getting a cut in places like the US imo. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 03 2018 14:20 IgnE wrote: so you two don't like peterson? No. To borrow some parlance of an old acquaintance of TL, his theories aren’t very sound. I started reading his 12 for Rules for Life book, but couldn’t finish it because it was a mess of psychobabble and other unconnected thoughts. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
But he makes a good mouthpiece for the people who feel they need intellectual representation. | ||
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