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On January 10 2019 08:35 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 08:28 xDaunt wrote:
Not surprising. But what Trump has now done is put the lie to Chuck and Nancy's rebuttal speech last night. He's making all of these negotiations public in a way that typically isn't done, and it's not looking good for his opposition.
EDIT: Why is the tweet not displaying properly? The intractability of negotiations doesn't play well if democrats can protray trump as the one refusing to deal. Selling yourself as a dealmaker doesn't work well if you can't make a deal.
It's a fair point, but Trump can mitigate that by showing the concessions that he's willing to make to get the Wall.
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It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall.
The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings.
Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on.
I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address.
I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum.
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On January 10 2019 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall. Show nested quote +The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings. Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on. I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address. I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum.
I'm still baffled that anyone thinks this situation is playing well for Trump or that the optics are any way in his favour.
Like the tweet Daunt quoted last page. Yes, Trump has revealed to the nation the behind doors negotiations!
...
That reveal Trump doesn't know how to negotiate?
Yet this is not looking... good... for the Democrats?
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On January 10 2019 09:07 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall. The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings. Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on. I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address. I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum. I'm still baffled that anyone thinks this situation is playing well for Trump or that the optics are anyway in his favour. Like the tweet Daunt quoted last page. Yes, Trump has revealed to the nation the behind doors negotiations! ... That reveal Trump doesn't know how to negotiate? Yet this is apparently putting... the screws... on the Democrats?
To be quite honest I'm rather disappointed in our conservative friends. From Bolsonaro, to healthcare, to the state of emergency I'm getting the impression they say these things without even believing them and just hoping they get swallowed whole or only superficially challenged because they seem to fall apart under any remotely thoughtful scrutiny. Something they are clearly capable of else-wise.
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On January 10 2019 09:07 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall. The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings. Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on. I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address. I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum. I'm still baffled that anyone thinks this situation is playing well for Trump or that the optics are any way in his favour. Like the tweet Daunt quoted last page. Yes, Trump has revealed to the nation the behind doors negotiations! ... That reveal Trump doesn't know how to negotiate?Yet this is not looking... good... for the Democrats?
As someone who negotiates professionally, I strongly disagree with this. A good negotiator doesn’t force a bad deal. Walking away when the negotiation is not fruitful is usually the right move.
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What exactly is trump waiting for by walking away from the table? The population doesn't seem to be with him on this so he really doesn't have much of a moral high ground. It mostly just seems like he's driving our nation into a wall and expecting the democrats to flinch first. I'm sure i'm not the first to say it but that sounds more like a hostage situation than a negotiation and i pray it doesn't pay dividends lest it becomes more common.
Once people start getting really impacted by the shutdown it shouldn't be hard to direct their anger towards the person who walked away from the table. Trump's original claim to credit notwithstanding.
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On January 10 2019 15:09 patrick321 wrote:What exactly is trump waiting for by walking away from the table? The population doesn't seem to be with him on this so he really doesn't have much of a moral high ground. It mostly just seems like he's driving our nation into a wall and expecting the democrats to flinch first. I'm sure i'm not the first to say it but that sounds more like a hostage situation than a negotiation and i pray it doesn't pay dividends lest it becomes more common. Once people start getting really impacted by the shutdown it shouldn't be hard to direct their anger towards the person who walked away from the table. Trump's original claim to credit notwithstanding.
It's like deja vu from 2013/2014 on this very website. Voters blame Republicans, with dire consequences for the midterms. It was political suicide. Blame each other!
A year later, GOP gained seats. Yes, with all the polls showing voters blamed Republicans for the shutdown. It's not as easy as citing the population polling and claiming things about the moral high ground.
And according to some tellings of the story, Schumer and allies explicitly said that they wouldn't support any deal for a wall even if made after passing another continuing resolution funding the government. Voters know when to walk away when your negotiation partner has taken the object of the deal off the table, and hopefully enough time and oration can bear that fruit. Maybe Democrats need to feel the impact of their constituents to put that back on the table and strike a deal. Hell, maybe the Republicans cave first and do another funding pact today for broken promise tomorrow. It won't be because the last public opinion polls cost them in the following election.
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On January 10 2019 15:33 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 15:09 patrick321 wrote:What exactly is trump waiting for by walking away from the table? The population doesn't seem to be with him on this so he really doesn't have much of a moral high ground. It mostly just seems like he's driving our nation into a wall and expecting the democrats to flinch first. I'm sure i'm not the first to say it but that sounds more like a hostage situation than a negotiation and i pray it doesn't pay dividends lest it becomes more common. Once people start getting really impacted by the shutdown it shouldn't be hard to direct their anger towards the person who walked away from the table. Trump's original claim to credit notwithstanding. It's like deja vu from 2013/2014 on this very website. Voters blame Republicans, with dire consequences for the midterms. It was political suicide. Blame each other!A year later, GOP gained seats. Yes, with all the polls showing voters blamed Republicans for the shutdown. It's not as easy as citing the population polling and claiming things about the moral high ground. And according to some tellings of the story, Schumer and allies explicitly said that they wouldn't support any deal for a wall even if made after passing another continuing resolution funding the government. Voters know when to walk away when your negotiation partner has taken the object of the deal off the table, and hopefully enough time and oration can bear that fruit. Maybe Democrats need to feel the impact of their constituents to put that back on the table and strike a deal. Hell, maybe the Republicans cave first and do another funding pact today for broken promise tomorrow. It won't be because the last public opinion polls cost them in the following election.
But the republicans caved back then and the shutdown ended with minimal impact on normal people's lives. It didn't matter that republicans were blamed because there was nothing serious to blame them for.
That isn't what's happening here. This is shaping up to be one of the longest ones we've had and there's presently no end in sight. Once some necessary systems start failing people are going to start yelling and my cited poll seems like a better indicator of their direction than your 2013 example.
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On January 10 2019 11:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 09:07 iamthedave wrote:On January 10 2019 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall. The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings. Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on. I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address. I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum. I'm still baffled that anyone thinks this situation is playing well for Trump or that the optics are any way in his favour. Like the tweet Daunt quoted last page. Yes, Trump has revealed to the nation the behind doors negotiations! ... That reveal Trump doesn't know how to negotiate?Yet this is not looking... good... for the Democrats? As someone who negotiates professionally, I strongly disagree with this. A good negotiator doesn’t force a bad deal. Walking away when the negotiation is not fruitful is usually the right move.
Oh I'll concede that. But if the Democrats are willing to give plenty of money for border security - and border security is the actual objective, yes? - but not the wall in specific, how is there no room for negotiation there?
The only reason is this is a 'bad deal' as you phrase it, is because Trump has essentially said 'I WANT A WALL AND NOTHING LESS WILL DO'. That's an ultimatum. That's saying 'give me what I want or we can't talk'. That's not good negotiation, because negotiation requires flexibility. And also, good negotiators don't make ultimatums when they're not in a position of power, and on this matter... Trump isn't.
Partisanship aside, you must know that the only way for Trump to get what he wants is for the Democrats to cave, and to do so essentially for no reason. They're under significantly less pressure than the GOP is on this issue and their situation gives them incentives to hold on (not to look weak on their first major battle controlling the house).
I don't get why you're against improved border security. Is it just because Trump blathered on about a wall so specifically, for so long, that you feel he'll be a failure if he doesn't build an actual wall?
Like GH says, the Democrats are falling over themselves trying to give you guys what you actually want, but because they won't stump for a specific physical wall you don't want it?
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You're asking the wrong people. The question should be directed to the intellectuals on the Left who embraced and then pushed moral and cultural subjectivism, creating the current atmosphere in which male whitey is always considered the bad guy.
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On January 11 2019 01:40 xDaunt wrote:You're asking the wrong people. The question should be directed to the intellectuals on the Left who embraced and then pushed moral and cultural subjectivism, creating the current atmosphere in which male whitey is always considered the bad guy.
Is your response that you/Steve King don't know why white supremacist or white nationalist offend you or that you don't know why you shouldn't be able to wear those labels proudly?
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On January 11 2019 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 01:40 xDaunt wrote:You're asking the wrong people. The question should be directed to the intellectuals on the Left who embraced and then pushed moral and cultural subjectivism, creating the current atmosphere in which male whitey is always considered the bad guy. Is your response that you don't know why white supremacist or white nationalist offend you or that you don't know why you shouldn't be able to wear those labels proudly?
It depends upon how you want to define the terms. Y'all on the Left classify damn near everything as white supremacy and/or white nationalism, even the promotion of traditional Western values. And let's not forget that only white supremacy and white nationalism are unacceptable. Y'all seem to be quite fine when Hispanics, blacks, and other races assert themselves so. Your brand of identity politics is inherently hypocritical.
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Interestingly Republicans justified the 2013 shutdown by saying that Republicans in Congress were exercising their power of the purse by shutting down the government. So now, presumably Trump is exercising Congress's power of the purse. That way when he declares a national emergency, it's okay because he has the powers of both the executive and legislative branches.
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On January 11 2019 01:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 11 2019 01:40 xDaunt wrote:You're asking the wrong people. The question should be directed to the intellectuals on the Left who embraced and then pushed moral and cultural subjectivism, creating the current atmosphere in which male whitey is always considered the bad guy. Is your response that you don't know why white supremacist or white nationalist offend you or that you don't know why you shouldn't be able to wear those labels proudly? It depends upon how you want to define the terms. Y'all on the Left classify damn near everything as white supremacy and/or white nationalism, even the promotion of traditional Western values. And let's not forget that only white supremacy and white nationalism are unacceptable. Y'all seem to be quite fine when Hispanics, blacks, and other races assert themselves so. Your brand of identity politics is inherently hypocritical.
Since I've made a point of distinguishing myself from the people you're typically reference with "y'all on the left" I'll presume you're not reference to myself and expect you to adjust your argument accordingly.
Hispanic isn't a race. Like even under the white supremacist construction of race, there are white Hispanics for example.
Race isn't real and neither is "white" it's a group made of people that wanted to exploit others along a vague identification of melanin content and adherence to Christianity (in the mid-evil not at all Christ like kind of way).
That's why people come and go from whiteness as it suites it's proprietors. The "slavery" of the Irish is a frequently cited example of this completely arbitrary grouping of "white" being subverted. This also files a world full of innovation and accomplishment into a neatly white supremacist version of "western civilization".
It turns the genocide and forced reeducation of indigenous people into "civilizing savages", the stealing and exploitation of their land into "manifest destiny",and turn's mass enslavement into "the birth of a nation"
TLDR: White history lied to you. There's some lessons 1936 Hitler would like to share with you about buying into notions of phenotypically defined genetic superiority.
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On January 11 2019 01:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2019 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 11 2019 01:40 xDaunt wrote:You're asking the wrong people. The question should be directed to the intellectuals on the Left who embraced and then pushed moral and cultural subjectivism, creating the current atmosphere in which male whitey is always considered the bad guy. Is your response that you don't know why white supremacist or white nationalist offend you or that you don't know why you shouldn't be able to wear those labels proudly? It depends upon how you want to define the terms. Y'all on the Left classify damn near everything as white supremacy and/or white nationalism, even the promotion of traditional Western values. And let's not forget that only white supremacy and white nationalism are unacceptable. Y'all seem to be quite fine when Hispanics, blacks, and other races assert themselves so. Your brand of identity politics is inherently hypocritical.
Define 'Traditional Western Values'. Which period of Western history are we taking our values from here, since clearly it isn't the modern day?
I mean, if we're going back to Victorian times like some of my less educated brethren would propose, then White Supremacy and White Nationalism are poster boy traditional western values. If you go back to the founders of your nation... well, y'all on the every part of the political spectrum didn't do well by them Injuns, did you?
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King's been bad for years. His vocal support for the far-right rhetoric coming from European parties has gone way too far. He keeps the confederate flag on his desk. That's why I think the way King interprets white supremacy isn't the lefty radical view that western civilization and capitalism and restricted immigration are relatives of white supremacy. He likely means the full anti racial mixing, demographics matter over culture bullshit.
It's a crying shame he didn't lose his primary in Iowa.
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Yeah King is like the only Congressman who is openly, literally white supremacist.
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On January 11 2019 02:24 Doodsmack wrote:
Yeah King is like the only Congressman who is openly, literally white supremacist.
Happy cake day.
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On January 10 2019 17:33 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2019 11:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 10 2019 09:07 iamthedave wrote:On January 10 2019 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:It's obvious to pretty much everyone but Trump's base that he could have got billions of dollars for a wall if he just didn't want to call it a wall. The fact is: We all agree that we need to secure our borders, we can build the infrastructure and roads at our ports of entry; we can install new technology to scan cars and trucks for drugs coming into our nation; we can hire the personnel we need to facilitate trade and immigration at the border; and we can fund more innovation to detect unauthorized crossings. Democrats are begging Trump to let them give him all that. Those things would actually do things like reduce illegal drugs coming in, and other unauthorized crossings. But for some inexplicable reason you guys want him to keep throwing a tantrum for an ineffective wall and are cheering him on. I mean it doesn't even make sense as a strategy to deal with the things you guys say you want to address. I can't believe it's actually being floated by anyone that anyone other than those with a partisan interest in defending Trump has any question about whether this shutdown is a result of a Trumper Tantrum. I'm still baffled that anyone thinks this situation is playing well for Trump or that the optics are any way in his favour. Like the tweet Daunt quoted last page. Yes, Trump has revealed to the nation the behind doors negotiations! ... That reveal Trump doesn't know how to negotiate?Yet this is not looking... good... for the Democrats? As someone who negotiates professionally, I strongly disagree with this. A good negotiator doesn’t force a bad deal. Walking away when the negotiation is not fruitful is usually the right move. Oh I'll concede that. But if the Democrats are willing to give plenty of money for border security - and border security is the actual objective, yes? - but not the wall in specific, how is there no room for negotiation there? The only reason is this is a 'bad deal' as you phrase it, is because Trump has essentially said 'I WANT A WALL AND NOTHING LESS WILL DO'. That's an ultimatum. That's saying 'give me what I want or we can't talk'. That's not good negotiation, because negotiation requires flexibility. And also, good negotiators don't make ultimatums when they're not in a position of power, and on this matter... Trump isn't. Partisanship aside, you must know that the only way for Trump to get what he wants is for the Democrats to cave, and to do so essentially for no reason. They're under significantly less pressure than the GOP is on this issue and their situation gives them incentives to hold on (not to look weak on their first major battle controlling the house). I don't get why you're against improved border security. Is it just because Trump blathered on about a wall so specifically, for so long, that you feel he'll be a failure if he doesn't build an actual wall? Like GH says, the Democrats are falling over themselves trying to give you guys what you actually want, but because they won't stump for a specific physical wall you don't want it?
Even worse, he doesn't even know what he wants to build ! There is no set plan for what, where, when, how ? Getting money first before you can answer all of those questions should more often than not be met with a refusal...
As it is often, Trump doesn't care about (important) details. Things are not that simple, and plans have to be made. How can you seriously expect your opponents to vote for your deal when they don't even know (and he doesn't even know himself) what it is ?
Military budget is (I hope !) not "ok here is 700B, please Pentagon, deal with it as you see fit". At least it's not the case here, specific needs and budgeting targets are carefully weighted and have to be put forth before budget is voted...
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EPT
