EPTMinute: 1:44:02
Here Tastosis mentioning how the Brood War e-sport scene is growing especially in Korea.
My question is how much is it growing and how much in the west? Do anyone have numbers?
Thank you
Brood War e-sport scene growing
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
Minute: 1:44:02 Here Tastosis mentioning how the Brood War e-sport scene is growing especially in Korea. My question is how much is it growing and how much in the west? Do anyone have numbers? Thank you | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
I hope we get some sort of initiative from Blizzard or something soon, maybe it could light a spark in competitive western brood war scene. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 03 2018 06:05 Kare wrote: Almost seems like it's shrinking in the west. If it weren't for peoples own initiative, generosity and donations, we wouldn't have anything to even play for. Have at you tournaments, BSL, pylon show, etc.. only things to do really. Starcraft 1 tournaments at places like dreamhack has died a long time ago because there are so few people that play, and the audience is also tiny. I hope we get some sort of initiative from Blizzard or something soon, maybe it could light a spark in competitive western brood war scene. Yes I hope in some blizzard initiative as well but I find it very unlikely. Nowadays pixzard doesn't really like Brood War. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On May 03 2018 06:05 Kare wrote: Almost seems like it's shrinking in the west. If it weren't for peoples own initiative, generosity and donations, we wouldn't have anything to even play for. Have at you tournaments, BSL, pylon show, etc.. only things to do really. Starcraft 1 tournaments at places like dreamhack has died a long time ago because there are so few people that play, and the audience is also tiny. I hope we get some sort of initiative from Blizzard or something soon, maybe it could light a spark in competitive western brood war scene. I'd love to have a western bw scene but honestly that is nearly impossible at this point. The level of play in the west is nowhere near the level required to justify a league or tournament. No one would watch unless it's a showmatch with old school bw celebs. Such events are unsustainable. It would be a huge mistake to try and revive something deader than dead. Even at the highest point of bw, the west was inconsequential. It was all Korea and that's okay. We can have a great amateur scene in the west, but keep all the pro stuff in Korea. I'd rather have blizz try to raise the next generation of Korean bw pros (we need new blood badly), than do anything for western scene. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:17 Golgotha wrote: I'd love to have a western bw scene but honestly that is nearly impossible at this point. The level of play in the west is nowhere near the level required to justify a league or tournament. No one would watch unless it's a showmatch with old school bw celebs. Such events are unsustainable. It would be a huge mistake to try and revive something deader than dead. Even at the highest point of bw, the west was inconsequential. It was all Korea and that's okay. We can have a great amateur scene in the west, but keep all the pro stuff in Korea. I'd rather have blizz try to raise the next generation of Korean bw pros (we need new blood badly), than do anything for western scene. I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanna point out that the level of some foreigners are actually higher than most people think. It's just really hard to keep going up in skill level for those players because there is so little reason to actually play. | ||
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PiSan
United States160 Posts
Don't discount foreigners completely though. Despite barely any infrastructure/money/public interest there have been plenty of dedicated and skilled players rise out of the foreign scene. And now that the base game is free, we have an unprecedented opportunity to reach new players that may have never played before. I think the opportunity is ripe for the foreign scene to grow if we give it some love. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:08 Golgotha wrote: If blizzard wants to help, they should just focus on the Korean scene and not the west. That's how it has always worked for bw. Bw won't catch in the west, no need to waste resources trying to do the impossible. But by having a great pro scene in Korea, you keep bw alive around the globe. I really want a blizz con tournament. Have the top 16 in the asl come and play for the championship. Top top players would be seeded into the later rounds. The problem with reaching out beyond Korea is not that it is naturally difficult or financially unsound but that Korean esports is lightyears ahead of the competition that any foreign tournament will just look like weak product. I agree though, strengthen the Korean base and we can all build on that. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On May 03 2018 12:02 Twinkle Toes wrote: The problem with reaching out beyond Korea is not that it is naturally difficult or financially unsound but that Korean esports is lightyears ahead of the competition that any foreign tournament will just look like weak product. I agree though, strengthen the Korean base and we can all build on that. Yup, it's exactly what I said in my 2nd post. Not many people will enjoy watching foreigners when there are Koreans like flash and snow who can give us unbelievable games. I personally enjoy watching some of the foreigners on here because they are part of this community and I see them on here. That's super awesome that we can interact with them. But I don't think there are that many people like me to warrant an entire tournament. BUT. BUT. If blizz does a blizz con event... Have one spot for our best foreigner. Now that I can get behind. It's not good enough for foreigners to live on, but that's what foreigners have done for decades. They've loved the game without any help. A single spot for them or even giving them the chance to qualify for a blizz con brood war tournament would be amazing. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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lestye
United States4206 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:08 Golgotha wrote: If blizzard wants to help, they should just focus on the Korean scene and not the west. That's how it has always worked for bw. Bw won't catch in the west, no need to waste resources trying to do the impossible. But by having a great pro scene in Korea, you keep bw alive around the globe. I really want a blizz con tournament. Have the top 16 in the asl come and play for the championship. Top top players would be seeded into the later rounds. I dont think thats a good attitude, the Korean scene seems it has plenty of interest and its growing by itself. I think other regions are the places where it needs the help. On May 03 2018 12:27 Kare wrote: I just wish that the gaming world cared more about RTS. 10 years ago RTS was HUGE with the giant bw scene in korea, wc3 was pretty big. SC2 came out and RTS continued to be super big in e-sports and gaming in general, but now it seems like RTS is a dying species.. There's just so much more competition nowadays. The metrics of success have changed so much. Theres a lot more games, a lot more communities with games with significant playerbases, and a lot more publisher money to go with it. | ||
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Chessz
United States644 Posts
Doing things like hardballing the ASL for royalties/licensing doesn't help, considering KeSPA is really responsible for the game becoming what it did. Leave it to Actiblizz, though.. | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On May 03 2018 12:44 Golgotha wrote: ...BUT. BUT. If blizz does a blizz con event... Have one spot for our best foreigner. Now that I can get behind. It's not good enough for foreigners to live on, but that's what foreigners have done for decades. They've loved the game without any help. A single spot for them or even giving them the chance to qualify for a blizz con brood war tournament would be amazing. They have to be good players too, in relation to Koreans,otherwise it would seem like token participation which would undermine the whole competition thing. So the way I see it they could either: 1. Go the original BW way, super financing and infrastructure within Korea which results in the most competitive ecosystem, with an avid captive international audience 2. Go worldwide and be at the mercy of two variables: that the attention towards foreign events would be equal to Korean events, and that sufficient talent will emerge out of international competition to make the entire thing look balanced. The second route is possible only if insane amount of money is poured and countries devout enough passion and resources in order to duplicate the Korean BW infrastructure and produce similar level talents. Either way, Korea seems so far ahead that it seems like a fool's wish. But who knows, maybe the slight lull with the focus on SC2 and the talent being on the old side would give foreigners the chance to level with new BW talents. They could start training grade school kids? I don't really know how to tip the balance, but I don't see any 15-20 foreigner beating any B or C level Korean even with the same amount of training. It all seemed to be an issue of maximizing finite resources, and it is best used in Korea than making any gamble. | ||
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:43 konadora wrote: just need to focus on korea, and increase the prize pool to make it sustainable. the player cards reveal how much they've earned in ASL in total and some earned like $1000 since ASL1... dude that aint sustainable. They make more money from streaming | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:43 konadora wrote: just need to focus on korea, and increase the prize pool to make it sustainable. the player cards reveal how much they've earned in ASL in total and some earned like $1000 since ASL1... dude that aint sustainable. Ignoring the streaming comment below, it's perfectly sustainable if they don't make the prize money so ridiculously top heavy. The snooker world championship going on and darts world championship (32 and 72 runner fields respectively) give 20-25% to the winners. Wimbledon is just below 20%. The upcoming football World Cup gives less than 10% to the winning team. ASL gives over 50%. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
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Arrian
United States889 Posts
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GTR
51578 Posts
On May 03 2018 16:14 sixfour wrote: Ignoring the streaming comment below, it's perfectly sustainable if they don't make the prize money so ridiculously top heavy. The snooker world championship going on and darts world championship (32 and 72 runner fields respectively) give 20-25% to the winners. Wimbledon is just below 20%. The upcoming football World Cup gives less than 10% to the winning team. ASL gives over 50%. lets be honest, does anyone actually give a shit about the world cup giving out prize money? players for the most part make way more from their clubs than they do for national team tournaments. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6833 Posts
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Gorgonoth
United States468 Posts
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10dla
127 Posts
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lestye
United States4206 Posts
On May 03 2018 14:02 Chessz wrote: I think blizzard needs to get some priorities straight regarding sc2 vs. brood war -- sc2 didn't catch on in korea so shift to supporting BW, both communities can thrive globally, but hopefully BW in korea is going to continue to grow. We've seen the effect of some of the Afreeca map makers really coming into play. Doing things like hardballing the ASL for royalties/licensing doesn't help, considering KeSPA is really responsible for the game becoming what it did. Leave it to Actiblizz, though.. I think I would give the credit to OGN, not Kespa. But regardless, I don't think a hard shift is realistic considering they're not really getting money out of BW like they are SC2. There's no microtransactions or anything. | ||
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Gorgonoth
United States468 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On May 03 2018 12:27 Kare wrote: I just wish that the gaming world cared more about RTS. 10 years ago RTS was HUGE with the giant bw scene in korea, wc3 was pretty big. SC2 came out and RTS continued to be super big in e-sports and gaming in general, but now it seems like RTS is a dying species.. I think MOBA's killed it. Very similar elements just simplified and more manageable for your average player. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10705 Posts
On May 03 2018 22:17 EvilTeletubby wrote: I think MOBA's killed it. Very similar elements just simplified and more manageable for your average player. This is so sad but true... T_T | ||
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
I think RTS games will always, at the very least, have a niche. Playing a MOBA isn't going to scratch that RTS itch that I have. Only things like StarCraft can deliver on the spectacle of large armies battling large armies. I can't get that experience from anything else other than from RTS games. I think RTS games are mechanically challenging (not unlike fighting games) which might be a barrier of entry for a lot of people (possibly also not unlike fighting games). | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
iirc last time i checked it was 1-2 months ago and korea was at 16k peaks. so at peak they increased by 4k. All other gateways seems to stayed the same. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 03 2018 10:17 Golgotha wrote: I'd love to have a western bw scene but honestly that is nearly impossible at this point. The level of play in the west is nowhere near the level required to justify a league or tournament. No one would watch unless it's a showmatch with old school bw celebs. Such events are unsustainable. It would be a huge mistake to try and revive something deader than dead. Even at the highest point of bw, the west was inconsequential. It was all Korea and that's okay. We can have a great amateur scene in the west, but keep all the pro stuff in Korea. I'd rather have blizz try to raise the next generation of Korean bw pros (we need new blood badly), than do anything for western scene. Blizzard involvement in the Korean pro scene have only done insane damages as far as I remember. The Korean scene can live and grow without Pixzard but that's not true for the west that without Pixzard support will never have a chance to grow. You assume that BW is incompatible with the west but the reality is that mainstream e-sport has been introduced in the west like 7 years ago with newer games heavily financially supported by publishers and micro-transactions while BW never had the chance to prove itself because it has never been supported in any ways here in the west. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On May 04 2018 00:24 MarcoJ wrote: some stats. https://starlog.gg/en/gateway-status iirc last time i checked it was 1-2 months ago and korea was at 16k peaks. so at peak they increased by 4k. All other gateways seems to stayed the same. Would be nice to have stats by country | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
On May 03 2018 22:17 EvilTeletubby wrote: I think MOBA's killed it. Very similar elements just simplified and more manageable for your average player. Yeah I think so too. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 00:28 AntiHack wrote: Blizzard involvement in the Korean pro scene have only done insane damages as far as I remember. The Korean scene can live and grow without Pixzard but that's not true for the west that without Pixzard support will never have a chance to grow. You assume that BW is incompatible with the west but the reality is that mainstream e-sport has been introduced in the west like 7 years ago with newer games heavily financially supported by publishers and micro-transactions while BW never had the chance to prove itself because it has never been supported in any ways here in the west. Is saying Pixzard cool now? Brood War was never supported? Pretty sure Foreigner had their fair share of WCG. Brood War was just never able to "outpopular" Warcraft 3 and 1.6 in the rest of the world. Which is actually happening again. And the Korean scene can live and grow without blizzard? When was this supposed to happen? Remastered was the spark korea needed. The reason why western Remastered isnt happening because of complete shitfest reactions on tournaments. Basetrade tried. Remember when they didnt cast your way? Other tournaments had LastScan pitchfork action. It doesnt make for a worthwhile experience. You guys could have atleast tried to not have things 100% "Your Way". Didnt happen User was warned for this post | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 01:37 10dla wrote: Is saying Pixzard cool now? Brood War was never supported? Pretty sure Foreigner had their fair share of WCG. Brood War was just never able to "outpopular" Warcraft 3 and 1.6 in the rest of the world. Which is actually happening again. And the Korean scene can live and grow without blizzard? When was this supposed to happen? Remastered was the spark korea needed. The reason why western Remastered isnt happening because of complete shitfest reactions on tournaments. Basetrade tried. Remember when they didnt cast your way? Other tournaments had LastScan pitchfork action. It doesnt make for a worthwhile experience. You guys could have atleast tried to not have things 100% "Your Way". Didnt happen Comparing the WCG in a world where e-sport was just not a thing with Pixzard (Yes Pixzard) heavily supporting sc2 to the point of using it as a tool to introduce a cultural phenomenon to the west called e-sport? Then making it f2p and self sustainable via micro-transactions? No need to read more. You really have no clue of what you're talking about and I assume that you wasn't even alive at WCG old days. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:18 AntiHack wrote: Comparing the WCG in a world where e-sport was just not a thing with Pixzard (Yes Pixzard) heavily supporting sc2 to the point of using it as a tool to introduce a cultural phenomenon to the west called e-sport? Then making it f2p and self sustainable via micro-transactions? No need to read more. You really have no clue of what you're talking about and I assume that you wasn't even alive at WCG old days. So Foreigner Brood War wasnt a thing because Blizzard pumped all the money into Warcraft 3? By the way: Nice comparison clusterfuck | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:25 10dla wrote: So Foreigner Brood War wasnt a thing because Blizzard pumped all the money into Warcraft 3? By the way: Nice comparison clusterfuck WC3 was just a newer 3D game in a world with no e-sport and that's my last reply to you. Have a nice day. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
 WCG Challenge 2000 | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17443 Posts
On May 04 2018 01:37 10dla wrote: The reason why western Remastered isnt happening because of complete shitfest reactions on tournaments. lets get real here.... this is how much attention the SC franchise is getting from ATVI. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8kSRUhn.jpg) its just not on their radar. ATVI is pumping "maintenance money" into the SC franchise so ATVI can keep the SC IP strong. This is so the IP can be leveraged into some new billion dollar game that is not RTS. ATVI is not interested in the RTS genre. as a fan of a game and frachise the worst situation to be in ... is having the game you like being the 15th most important priority for a giant corporation. that's what is going on right now with both SC1 and SC2. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 05:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: lets get real here.... this is how much attention the SC franchise is getting from ATVI. its just not on their radar. ATVI is pumping "maintenance money" into the SC franchise so ATVI can keep the SC IP strong. This is so the IP can be leveraged into some new billion dollar game that is not RTS. ATVI is not interested in the RTS genre. as a fan of a game and frachise the worst situation to be in ... is having the game you like being the 15th most important priority for a giant corporation. that's what is going on right now with both SC1 and SC2. That would explain why Blizzard doesnt pump money into the game. But where is the community? Warcraft 3 is going strong right now. Before and after that patch. Is there heavy investment by Blizzard? Maybe there is some money flowing i dont know about. "But there is Starcraft 2!". People are still willing to watch both games when presented in good fashion. Also: Not interested in RTS? Is that why they updated Warcraft 3? | ||
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TelecoM
United States10705 Posts
On May 04 2018 05:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: lets get real here.... this is how much attention the SC franchise is getting from ATVI. its just not on their radar. ATVI is pumping "maintenance money" into the SC franchise so ATVI can keep the SC IP strong. This is so the IP can be leveraged into some new billion dollar game that is not RTS. ATVI is not interested in the RTS genre. as a fan of a game and frachise the worst situation to be in ... is having the game you like being the 15th most important priority for a giant corporation. that's what is going on right now with both SC1 and SC2. Well put... | ||
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iFU.spx
Russian Federation378 Posts
You can see Online user stats at West here https://starlog.gg/en/gateway-status It is deacreasing. Sorry | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 06:44 iFU.spx wrote: I have numbers and they are negative You can see Online user stats at West here https://starlog.gg/en/gateway-status It is deacreasing. Sorry E-sport audience doesn't equal players base. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Just because SC isn't on that radar doesn't mean blizzard isn't putting money into SC. Look at WCS and the events that have been hosted for SC:R. Come on, stop looking for doomsday signs and just work on building something like I am. | ||
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lestye
United States4206 Posts
On May 04 2018 07:20 SchAmToo wrote: lol. Businesses make up powerpoints to show probably big spending, or it's made by someone who barely knows shit and googled Blizzards games and put random logos up there. Don't act like this is the "end all be all" because you found some shitty powerpoint slide. Just because SC isn't on that radar doesn't mean blizzard isn't putting money into SC. Look at WCS and the events that have been hosted for SC:R. Come on, stop looking for doomsday signs and just work on building something like I am. Yeah I think Jimmy's offbase on that one. Especially when Diablo is on there and we know that Starcraft has gotten way more love over Diablo the last 2 years.... Also its a matter of perspective too. The type of money to make Starcraft 1 & 2 fans really joyous with events are negligible when they're talking about investors, that doesn't necessarily mean they don't give a shit to want to hold events and support, foster communities. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 07:20 SchAmToo wrote: lol. Businesses make up powerpoints to show probably big spending, or it's made by someone who barely knows shit and googled Blizzards games and put random logos up there. Don't act like this is the "end all be all" because you found some shitty powerpoint slide. Just because SC isn't on that radar doesn't mean blizzard isn't putting money into SC. Look at WCS and the events that have been hosted for SC:R. Come on, stop looking for doomsday signs and just work on building something like I am. And I thank you for your effort SchAmToo, your streams and castings are awesome. | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
but its and indicator. But I also dont see where the numbers are negative bc you would need to compare them to previous numbers (the term growth indicates a time series). | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 07:31 MarcoJ wrote: but its and indicator. But I also dont see where the numbers are negative bc you would need to compare them to previous numbers (the term growth indicates a time series). Maybe an indicator for the west but Korea is quite different. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
On May 03 2018 22:17 EvilTeletubby wrote: I think MOBA's killed it. Very similar elements just simplified and more manageable for your average player. To be honest I think SC2 killed the RTS. It had a more narrow appeal than SC1 since it was designed to be all about E-sports and neglected everything else (like custom games). And thus boxed in the RTS genre into E-sports. And then, new non-RTS E-sports got big, and that was the end of that. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 08:32 KungKras wrote: To be honest I think SC2 killed the RTS. It had a more narrow appeal than SC1 since it was designed to be all about E-sports and neglected everything else (like custom games). And thus boxed in the RTS genre into E-sports. And then, new non-RTS E-sports got big, and that was the end of that. Yeah, Starcraft 2 should have had a bigger approach to Custom Games, so things like mobas cant evolve....no wait.... | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On May 03 2018 18:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: scene is growing, look qikz league even mind and best are playing. BSL is going to chicago next season.have at you is onfire with koget winning the tournament vs shinee.So we are ready to go Blizzard! I had no idea about any of this. Can this stuff get a TL writeup with links to Youtube videos so we can follow along? | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
A reliance on streaming is an evolution of that. Now that people have some spending cash... I still would rather watch SCBW than baseball, so I might as well try to give to the scene. The issue that I am having is that I don't know how to really support the scene. I don't watch live streaming and don't go onto AfreekaTV.com (but if I was in Korea I would've paid $500 for front row tickets to Flash vs Snow  ). WC3 is taking off again because BackToWarcraft has created a great channel for the English speaking audience, for all sorts of events, and people are donating to it.But SCBW? I didn't know shit about anything that eonzerg posted. I come to TL quite a bit but the foreigner stuff just isn't focused. No one is doing a nice writeup about it, or has a Youtube channel I can subscribe to. Someone really needs to write a guide on "how to get into the SC E-sports community", since I'd bet $100 that the ASL only caught on because it's posted to Afreeka's Youtube channel which also has SC2 so people already knew about it. Okay, that was all over the place but there's young professionals like me who would love to watch the games and contribute to the scene, but only follow the scene a little bit. Direct us to the right channels. Wading through TL forums to find a VoD is too time consuming and requires prerequisite knowledge about the scene. Someone should curate the content. | ||
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Gorgonoth
United States468 Posts
On May 04 2018 09:52 rackdude wrote: SCBW and WC3 are heading into an interesting era where the viewer base is old enough to have jobs and spending cash. 15 years ago we were all watching OSL together all hoping to be a "progamer", then going to college, then going through the shit stage of a career. Now people have families and jobs. ASL is starting to charge for seats which is totally fine since both the scene and the people involved have matured. I think that while paid content didn't fly a decade ago, it's totally fine these days. A reliance on streaming is an evolution of that. Now that people have some spending cash... I still would rather watch SCBW than baseball, so I might as well try to give to the scene. The issue that I am having is that I don't know how to really support the scene. I don't watch live streaming and don't go onto AfreekaTV.com (but if I was in Korea I would've paid $500 for front row tickets to Flash vs Snow ). WC3 is taking off again because BackToWarcraft has created a great channel for the English speaking audience, for all sorts of events, and people are donating to it.But SCBW? I didn't know shit about anything that eonzerg posted. I come to TL quite a bit but the foreigner stuff just isn't focused. No one is doing a nice writeup about it, or has a Youtube channel I can subscribe to. Someone really needs to write a guide on "how to get into the SC E-sports community", since I'd bet $100 that the ASL only caught on because it's posted to Afreeka's Youtube channel which also has SC2 so people already knew about it. Okay, that was all over the place but there's young professionals like me who would love to watch the games and contribute to the scene, but only follow the scene a little bit. Direct us to the right channels. Wading through TL forums to find a VoD is too time consuming and requires prerequisite knowledge about the scene. Someone should curate the content. I think that's an excellent point, right now the BW scene could use some direction and cohesion for outsiders looking in | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17443 Posts
On May 04 2018 07:20 SchAmToo wrote: lol. Businesses make up powerpoints to show probably big spending, or it's made by someone who barely knows shit and googled Blizzards games and put random logos up there. Don't act like this is the "end all be all" because you found some shitty powerpoint slide. to slander the team that constructs the investor call script is off base. claiming they 'barely know shit' is incorrect. i'd say they know 10,000 times more about the financials of ATVI's franchises and ATVI's future strategies than you do. every word in every investor call is calculated. it is the end all be all. check out the revenue attached to those logos. then examine the revenue attached to the other Blizzard properties not on that slide. the way ATVI is perceived by investors is on the line during every minute of every investor call. these are not random logos. during the investor call every logo in that slide was mentioned and the word "starcraft" was said exactly zero times. another indicator these are not "random logos". on a gaming forum you could easily say things like this though. ATVI has the RTS genre in maintenance mode and it has been that way for at least 3 years now. and like i said earlier, ATVI is a giant monster multi-billion dollar company and the RTS genre and the Starcraft RTS franchise is something like priority #15 for them. On May 04 2018 09:52 rackdude wrote: SCBW and WC3 are heading into an interesting era where the viewer base is old enough to have jobs and spending cash. 15 years ago we were all watching OSL together all hoping to be a "progamer", then going to college, then going through the shit stage of a career. Now people have families and jobs. ASL is starting to charge for seats which is totally fine since both the scene and the people involved have matured. I think that while paid content didn't fly a decade ago, it's totally fine these days. .... .... Okay, that was all over the place but there's young professionals like me who would love to watch the games and contribute to the scene, but only follow the scene a little bit. Direct us to the right channels. Wading through TL forums to find a VoD is too time consuming and requires prerequisite knowledge about the scene. Someone should curate the content. this is exactly why Bob Kotick paid $90 million for Activision in 1991. Activision was just a "brand" ... it had nothing, no dev staff, no marketing , nothing. Kotick was purchasing the fond memories from 1980 that teenagers of that era had. and now these teenagers were in their prime earning years with a tonne of cash to spend. I don't see ATVI investing in the RTS genre in any tangible way though. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 10:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote: to slander the team that constructs the investor call script is off base. claiming they 'barely know shit' is incorrect. i'd say they know 10,000 times more about the financials of ATVI's franchises and ATVI's future strategies than you do. every word in every investor call is calculated. it is the end all be all. check out the revenue attached to those logos. then examine the revenue attached to the other Blizzard properties not on that slide. the way ATVI is perceived by investors is on the line during every minute of every investor call. these are not random logos. during the investor call every logo in that slide was mentioned and the word "starcraft" was said exactly zero times. another indicator these are not "random logos". on a gaming forum you could easily say things like this though. ATVI has the RTS genre in maintenance mode and it has been that way for at least 3 years now. and like i said earlier, ATVI is a giant monster multi-billion dollar company and the RTS genre and the Starcraft RTS franchise is something like priority #15 for them. this is exactly why Bob Kotick paid $90 million for Activision in 1991. Activision was just a "brand" ... it had nothing, no dev staff, no marketing , nothing. Kotick was purchasing the fond memories from 1980 that teenagers of that era had. and now these teenagers were in their prime earning years with a tonne of cash to spend. I don't see ATVI investing in the RTS genre in any tangible way though. Maintenance comes from maintaining, doesnt it? Is that a bad thing? Legacy of the Void was released 3 years ago. And you saying that they should have already released another expansion or a complete new RTS? Valve is maintaining DotA 2 since it has its release. Actually, Valve does nothing but maintaining games. And Valve is the best company ever(?) | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17443 Posts
i'd say ATVI is more concerned with keeping the SC IP strong than investing in competitive esports RTS games. The SC IP is important to them so they can produce a game using the IP several years into the future. it is extremely expensive to create a new IP from scratch. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 11:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i'm saying the RTS genre and the SC franchise is priority # ~15. and that is a bad spot to be in. Blizzard isn't a "volume publisher" like EA. Blizzard has currently 8 games going, so its max #8 | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17443 Posts
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10dla
127 Posts
On May 04 2018 11:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ATVI has multiple incubation teams working on games right now. Blizzard developes the games, not Activision | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17443 Posts
check my reply in full. | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
Go ahead and post the internal documents on what team has X amount of heads working on it. Sick of those wild guesses just to back up a shitty number. Ironically, they could work on 4 different RTS. But you wont tell us about them... What a shame | ||
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
On May 04 2018 09:52 rackdude wrote: But SCBW? I didn't know shit about anything that eonzerg posted. I come to TL quite a bit but the foreigner stuff just isn't focused. No one is doing a nice writeup about it, or has a Youtube channel I can subscribe to. Someone really needs to write a guide on "how to get into the SC E-sports community", since I'd bet $100 that the ASL only caught on because it's posted to Afreeka's Youtube channel which also has SC2 so people already knew about it. Okay, that was all over the place but there's young professionals like me who would love to watch the games and contribute to the scene, but only follow the scene a little bit. Direct us to the right channels. Wading through TL forums to find a VoD is too time consuming and requires prerequisite knowledge about the scene. Someone should curate the content. Day9 did some super accessible starcraft content a while back, from both an esports and player perspective. Here's the playlist: | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On May 04 2018 12:21 orvinreyes wrote: Day9 did some super accessible starcraft content a while back, from both an esports and player perspective. Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q67zv_p0jBA&list=PLgmCLtUkEutKY8IlwyVCUFoRtgQe3LCf1 Day9 dailies are different though. I don't want a full analysis, I just wanna watch some fun games with commentary. Honestly, the fact that I say accessible SCBW content and someone points to the Day9 dailies should be a warning sign that the community is misaligned. Day9's stuff is great, but it's not just a set it on the side and have fun content. Where's the channel of casts for random SCBW events? Who's doing something in a professional looking manner, putting some effort into making it look good, and making these events accessible? I see that there are streams around, but I don't want to watch streams of people laddering. There used to be people like NukeTheStars and CholeraSC. In the new era, there was EsportsJohn for a bit, but that's gone. How come no one is casting KCM? (The fact that I found that was great, but random) What's the channel to subscribe to that's for foreign BW? I don't want it muddled with streams, I just want an SCBW tournament channel like there used to be, and like there is for any other esport. Here's the example of the WC3 channel which is growing right now: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8AUf3tg5Id7kZjfsjkILMA Good professional casts of tournament games with consistency, both in the content and the style. Instead what we have is all Korean language casts or FPVODs. Even the curated FPVODs are going away with one of the best channels not posting anymore: https://www.youtube.com/user/vr33m/featured and it's no surprise to me that the foreigner community isn't (in general) excited to open up Korean language casts: I'm just doing it because I'm used to it after all of these years. There's something great about a cast since you can always have it on, even when working, and tune in when it heats up. I am just really surprised that no one has done this stuff (or I haven't found it yet!). | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On May 04 2018 09:33 rackdude wrote: I had no idea about any of this. Can this stuff get a TL writeup with links to Youtube videos so we can follow along? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/531961-stpl-r-and-s-shinhan-tank-proleague-18-19-season This is the STPL at least, the tournament I run, you can find the vods all here: https://www.youtube.com/user/QikzSC | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2751 Posts
But it's true, it's hard to get to the visible spot in all the shite that internet produces these days. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 04 2018 15:19 Qikz wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/531961-stpl-r-and-s-shinhan-tank-proleague-18-19-season This is the STPL at least, the tournament I run, you can find the vods all here: https://www.youtube.com/user/QikzSC ZZZero also uploaded the games from BSL on Youtube: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/531965-bsl-4-pro-and-chobo-leagues-start https://www.youtube.com/user/DiDeKZZZ/videos | ||
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MaxModeration
2 Posts
The point is, how big would non Korean SC 2 be if Blizzard treated SC2 like they do Broodwar? It would be in the same freaking boat... every pro would quit tomorrow if Blizzard announced they would treat SC 2 like they do Broodwar. The casuals would quickly follow. All you ever see is whining and complaining. The rarest thing in SC 2 is finding someone who loves the game -- who isn't paid to "love" it. It's just a slap in the face, all things considered, that Blizzard can't even spare a dime in regards to Broodwar, yet they can pay streamers 50k or whatever just to stream some campaign stuff for a few days. Come on. All I ever hear about is how Morhaime will never stop investing in SC 2 cause it's a passion project. Returns be damned. Given the numbers... that comment makes sense. But, on the other hand, what, does this guy have zero passion for Broodwar? He loves the inferior version? What, is he dumb? Last I checked, Broodwar helped make Blizzard what it is today. What has SC 2 done? Provided us with some of the worst units in RTS history? The Broodwar scene was ridiculously big back in the day, for having no money to play for... This game has NEVER been given a chance to flourish, outside of Korea. Honestly, it just looks they're afraid they can't monetize Broodwar properly. They don't want people to play it. They'd rather them play any of their other games. A sick fetish that is embarrassing and unbecoming. The last ASL series got more viewers than SC 2 will EVER REACH AGAIN. Korea, alone, is bigger than the entirety of SC 2. SC 2 needs a boycott more than it needs another penny put into it. Enabling this treatment is sick. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 12:21 orvinreyes wrote: Day9 did some super accessible starcraft content a while back, from both an esports and player perspective. Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q67zv_p0jBA&list=PLgmCLtUkEutKY8IlwyVCUFoRtgQe3LCf1 As much as I like Day9 and I'm extremely gratefull for this series I would have prefer a more new-players-friendly series instead of how-to-be-a-pro series taking in account that the majority of his streams audience was made of people that had never touched BW in their life. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On May 04 2018 17:56 MaxModeration wrote: It's just a slap in the face, all things considered, that Blizzard can't even spare a dime in regards to Broodwar, yet they can pay streamers 50k or whatever just to stream some campaign stuff for a few days. Come on. According to the first pylon episode, they did put a lot of money into the Anniversary event. So not sparing a dime is a gross exaggeration. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 17:56 MaxModeration wrote: Korea is an example of what CAN happen if people actually take the scene seriously and invest in it. What gets me is, no one ever brings up SC 2: There is all of this money pumped into SC 2, by Blizzard, yet... it's not a big esport. The numbers are never anything worth talking about. They're embarrassingly low compared to the money put into the game. The point is, how big would non Korean SC 2 be if Blizzard treated SC2 like they do Broodwar? It would be in the same freaking boat... every pro would quit tomorrow if Blizzard announced they would treat SC 2 like they do Broodwar. The casuals would quickly follow. All you ever see is whining and complaining. The rarest thing in SC 2 is finding someone who loves the game -- who isn't paid to "love" it. It's just a slap in the face, all things considered, that Blizzard can't even spare a dime in regards to Broodwar, yet they can pay streamers 50k or whatever just to stream some campaign stuff for a few days. Come on. All I ever hear about is how Morhaime will never stop investing in SC 2 cause it's a passion project. Returns be damned. Given the numbers... that comment makes sense. But, on the other hand, what, does this guy have zero passion for Broodwar? He loves the inferior version? What, is he dumb? Last I checked, Broodwar helped make Blizzard what it is today. What has SC 2 done? Provided us with some of the worst units in RTS history? The Broodwar scene was ridiculously big back in the day, for having no money to play for... This game has NEVER been given a chance to flourish, outside of Korea. Honestly, it just looks they're afraid they can't monetize Broodwar properly. They don't want people to play it. They'd rather them play any of their other games. A sick fetish that is embarrassing and unbecoming. The last ASL series got more viewers than SC 2 will EVER REACH AGAIN. Korea, alone, is bigger than the entirety of SC 2. SC 2 needs a boycott more than it needs another penny put into it. Enabling this treatment is sick. I totally agree but I fear that the BW fans that play sc2 are a small minority so no way to bring Blizz back on earth. I also believe that being a 2D kind of realistic style RTS put you in a bad spot in nowadays Blizzard. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 15:19 Qikz wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/531961-stpl-r-and-s-shinhan-tank-proleague-18-19-season This is the STPL at least, the tournament I run, you can find the vods all here: https://www.youtube.com/user/QikzSC Thank you | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
On May 04 2018 17:56 MaxModeration wrote: [...] The last ASL series got more viewers than SC 2 will EVER REACH AGAIN. Korea, alone, is bigger than the entirety of SC 2. SC 2 needs a boycott more than it needs another penny put into it. Enabling this treatment is sick. do you have some numbers to back that up? | ||
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lestye
United States4206 Posts
On May 04 2018 08:32 KungKras wrote: To be honest I think SC2 killed the RTS. It had a more narrow appeal than SC1 since it was designed to be all about E-sports and neglected everything else (like custom games). And thus boxed in the RTS genre into E-sports. And then, new non-RTS E-sports got big, and that was the end of that. That doesn't make much sense. 1) There was hardly any actual development resources put into the game for esports. It was pretty much all put into the campaign, the criticism of the custom games holds up. 2) I don't think the custom game thing makes any sense at all. For one, custom games have gone the way of the dinosaur with the advent of f2p, mobile games, cheap AAA titles, big content patches in games. Also I don't see why custom games matter, if you look at the popular games and genres on the market, none of them rely on custom games to be successful or popular. I think if your make the argument that the RTS needs custom games to flourish, that says more about the unappealing aspects of RTS than anything else. Also, most succsesful RTS games outside of Blizzard dont have custom games at all, or even decent map editors. They didnt "need" that stuff. Ultimately, the post would only make sense if SC2 bombed and thats what drove people away from making RTS games, when it was a plethora of other factors. Ensemble studios shuttered, and EA took EA Los Angeles off of RTS before SC2 was released. CNC4 failing so bad probably had more of an effect than any shortcomings of SC2. On May 04 2018 17:56 MaxModeration wrote: Korea is an example of what CAN happen if people actually take the scene seriously and invest in it. What gets me is, no one ever brings up SC 2: There is all of this money pumped into SC 2, by Blizzard, yet... it's not a big esport. The numbers are never anything worth talking about. They're embarrassingly low compared to the money put into the game. The point is, how big would non Korean SC 2 be if Blizzard treated SC2 like they do Broodwar? It would be in the same freaking boat... every pro would quit tomorrow if Blizzard announced they would treat SC 2 like they do Broodwar. The casuals would quickly follow. All you ever see is whining and complaining. The rarest thing in SC 2 is finding someone who loves the game -- who isn't paid to "love" it. It's just a slap in the face, all things considered, that Blizzard can't even spare a dime in regards to Broodwar, yet they can pay streamers 50k or whatever just to stream some campaign stuff for a few days. Come on. All I ever hear about is how Morhaime will never stop investing in SC 2 cause it's a passion project. Returns be damned. Given the numbers... that comment makes sense. But, on the other hand, what, does this guy have zero passion for Broodwar? He loves the inferior version? What, is he dumb? Last I checked, Broodwar helped make Blizzard what it is today. What has SC 2 done? Provided us with some of the worst units in RTS history? The Broodwar scene was ridiculously big back in the day, for having no money to play for... This game has NEVER been given a chance to flourish, outside of Korea. Honestly, it just looks they're afraid they can't monetize Broodwar properly. They don't want people to play it. They'd rather them play any of their other games. A sick fetish that is embarrassing and unbecoming. The last ASL series got more viewers than SC 2 will EVER REACH AGAIN. Korea, alone, is bigger than the entirety of SC 2. SC 2 needs a boycott more than it needs another penny put into it. Enabling this treatment is sick. This post is just incredibly ignorant. They've spent a good chunk on BW events over the years, so to say "they cant spare a dime" after we had the anniversary events, and several showmatches, not to mention Blizzcons, Worldwide Invitiationals, etc in the past. And they said they're planning on a competition this year and something bigger next year. (That's not to say there's not stuff worth criticizing its just that statement sucks) Also you fail to mention that SC2 is still bringing in money for them. Your viewership anecdotes don't really matter much when those are almost exclusively in Korea. That's 1 niche market compared to the weight of the rest of the world. Your call for boycott is also incredibly nonsensical, if you had the numbers for a decent boycott, then there wouldnt be player/viewership problems in the West. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
Well, it's pretty easy to guess, the streams alone are bigger than sc2 streams while Afreeca is a TV channel so... EDIT: Not mentioning that this season has been extremely successful to the point that the live audience have to pay a ticked to watch tournaments in Afreeca TV studio. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 21:05 lestye wrote: That doesn't make much sense. 1) There was hardly any actual development resources put into the game for esports. It was pretty much all put into the campaign, the criticism of the custom games holds up. 2) I don't think the custom game thing makes any sense at all. For one, custom games have gone the way of the dinosaur with the advent of f2p, mobile games, cheap AAA titles, big content patches in games. Also I don't see why custom games matter, if you look at the popular games and genres on the market, none of them rely on custom games to be successful or popular. I think if your make the argument that the RTS needs custom games to flourish, that says more about the unappealing aspects of RTS than anything else. Also, most succsesful RTS games outside of Blizzard dont have custom games at all, or even decent map editors. They didnt "need" that stuff. Ultimately, the post would only make sense if SC2 bombed and thats what drove people away from making RTS games, when it was a plethora of other factors. Ensemble studios shuttered, and EA took EA Los Angeles off of RTS before SC2 was released. CNC4 failing so bad probably had more of an effect than any shortcomings of SC2. This post is just incredibly ignorant. They've spent a good chunk on BW events over the years, so to say "they cant spare a dime" after we had the anniversary events, and several showmatches, not to mention Blizzcons, Worldwide Invitiationals, etc in the past. And they said they're planning on a competition this year and something bigger next year. (That's not to say there's not stuff worth criticizing its just that statement sucks) Also you fail to mention that SC2 is still bringing in money for them. Your viewership anecdotes don't really matter much when those are almost exclusively in Korea. That's 1 niche market compared to the weight of the rest of the world. Your call for boycott is also incredibly nonsensical, if you had the numbers for a decent boycott, then there wouldnt be player/viewership problems in the West. "They've spent a good chunk on BW events over the years" It was only the Remastered event which was a single money-grabbing event to sell remastered copies. "Blizzcons, Worldwide Invitiationals" Those are micro events that doesn't matter at all in the gran scheme of building a pro scene in the west. "Also you fail to mention that SC2 is still bringing in money for them." Just because of micro transactions. "Your viewership anecdotes don't really matter much when those are almost exclusively in Korea. That's 1 niche market compared to the weight of the rest of the world" That's what all this topic is about: To promote and build a BW e-sport scene in the west. | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
P.S: yt vods. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 21:22 MarcoJ wrote: I skipped through the Afreeca TV Vods for GSL and ASL and ASL is on avg about 5-10k up. Still if we dont have reliable numbers on viewercounts on the yt chan as well as the afreeca tv chan we cant make any solid judgement. P.S: yt vods. Oh cmon, everybody knows that sc1 is bigger then sc2 taking in account Korea, even sc2 fanboys know that. EDIT: in case you missed the previous edit: "Not mentioning that this season has been extremely successful to the point that the live audience have to pay a ticked to watch tournaments in Afreeca TV studio." | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
On May 04 2018 21:28 AntiHack wrote: Oh cmon, everybody knows that sc1 is bigger then sc2 taking in account Korea, even sc2 fanboys know that. EDIT: in case you missed the previous edit: "Not mentioning that this season has been extremely successful to the point that the live audience have to pay a ticked to watch tournaments in Afreeca TV studio." I just dont like that you are claiming things. If its common knowledge than it would be easy to provide proof of that. I actually looked up the numbers and it seems like the player base for SC2(http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=g&sx=a) is more or less the same for SC (https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard/graph?gateway=global). This data is not cleaned (one user can have multiple account on multiple gateways). But the Playerbase in KR seems bigger in SC than in SC2, while its the opposite for the West (US+EU). Taking into account the yt VOD numbers from afreeca tv for gsl and asl (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg/playlists). Also ASL has a better viewcount. Since probably it is mostly used by foreigners I checked the afreeca tv accounts for each league. ASL has more Follower and Total views versus GSL (http://afreecatv.com/afstar1, http://afreecatv.com/afgsl), but GSL is also broadcastet at twitch.tv (https://www.twitch.tv/gsl). They have nearly 150k follower there (ASL has ~65k) and about 48M total views (ASL 21M). So it seems quite close. | ||
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lestye
United States4206 Posts
On May 04 2018 21:18 AntiHack wrote: "They've spent a good chunk on BW events over the years" It was only the Remastered event which was a single money-grabbing event to sell remastered copies. "Blizzcons, Worldwide Invitiationals" Those are micro events that doesn't matter at all in the gran scheme of building a pro scene in the west. "Also you fail to mention that SC2 is still bringing in money for them." Just because of micro transactions. "Your viewership anecdotes don't really matter much when those are almost exclusively in Korea. That's 1 niche market compared to the weight of the rest of the world" That's what all this topic is about: To promote and build a BW e-sport scene in the west. You also had the 1<3 Starcraft event. And regardless of "micro events", they were a big deal at the time, especially in the mid 2000s. And so what if their micro events? The claim was that they didn't spend a dime, when that was not true at all. Especially when you could argue that shouldn't be necessary. Counterstrike got absolutely massive in the West without Valve spending a single dollar in the game's 12 year competitive history. Yeah, microtransactions are important, which is why it's nonsensical to moan why one game is favored another. And I agree that's what this topic is about, so why was that guy bringing up figures that aren't applicable? | ||
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10dla
127 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 22:32 MarcoJ wrote: I just dont like that you are claiming things. If its common knowledge than it would be easy to provide proof of that. I actually looked up the numbers and it seems like the player base for SC2(http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=g&sx=a) is more or less the same for SC (https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard/graph?gateway=global). This data is not cleaned (one user can have multiple account on multiple gateways). But the Playerbase in KR seems bigger in SC than in SC2, while its the opposite for the West (US+EU). Taking into account the yt VOD numbers from afreeca tv for gsl and asl (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg/playlists). Also ASL has a better viewcount. Since probably it is mostly used by foreigners I checked the afreeca tv accounts for each league. ASL has more Follower and Total views versus GSL (http://afreecatv.com/afstar1, http://afreecatv.com/afgsl), but GSL is also broadcastet at twitch.tv (https://www.twitch.tv/gsl). They have nearly 150k follower there (ASL has ~65k) and about 48M total views (ASL 21M). So it seems quite close. You're underestimating how much the Koreans are used to watch starcraft on TV and also how many non-players audience there was back in the days and even more nowadays that the old sc1 fans have grown up and have a family but still enjoy watching sc1 on TV. | ||
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MaxModeration
2 Posts
It's routine for 1 BW streamer to have as many viewers or more than SC 2 has overall, at the time. If every Korean was going to watch something, it would be the last ASL series. The elephant in the room is that BW in Korea is already bigger than SC 2 is, overall. One of the reasons... all of the "biggest players" are playing BW. Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu (once he returns...). BW has the starpower. SC2 only has... chance for non Koreans to win money. If things were equal... Well... you can see why there is probably a fear/reluctance to equalize things. User was banned for this post. | ||
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MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
On May 04 2018 22:43 AntiHack wrote: You're underestimating how much the Koreans are used to watch starcraft on TV and also how many non-players audience there was back in the days and even more nowadays that the old sc1 fans have grown up and have a family but still enjoy watching sc1 on TV. Yes this might be. But is SC2 not broadcastet on Korean TV? How many ppl from the "old days" have maybe switched to SC2? How much people are that actually? You are still claiming things without a single proof. Even just a news article or a quote from a person thats in Korea (like Artosis, Tasteless, Rapid whatever). I dont like the style of having a discussion. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 22:37 lestye wrote: You also had the 1<3 Starcraft event. And regardless of "micro events", they were a big deal at the time, especially in the mid 2000s. And so what if their micro events? The claim was that they didn't spend a dime, when that was not true at all. Especially when you could argue that shouldn't be necessary. Counterstrike got absolutely massive in the West without Valve spending a single dollar in the game's 12 year competitive history. Yeah, microtransactions are important, which is why it's nonsensical to moan why one game is favored another. And I agree that's what this topic is about, so why was that guy bringing up figures that aren't applicable? The 1<3 Starcraft was a micro event as well, a financially little candy for Activision Blizzard. "And regardless of "micro events", they were a big deal at the time, especially in the mid 2000s. And so what if their micro events?" They were just show matches showing the Korean peculiar e-sport culture in a western world with no mainstream e-sport. Counterstrike was a nickle e-sport just like all the e-sports of the time that have ride the new e-sport wave (sc2, mobas) remaking it to CS:GO. Seems like you forgot where we come from or maybe you wasn't there where nobody in the west knew a single s**t about e-sport. Don't you remember that every single Korean freaking bus had a sc2 advertiseing on it at sc2 release? Don't you remember the enormous amount of money put in the making of main stream sc2 tournaments of a broken game that wasn't even balanced at the time (not even now). Jesus... even beta sc2 tournaments were financially supported by Blizzard. Blizzard was clearly willing to replace sc1 e-sport with sc2 e-sport because they had a pretty much vague idea of what e-sport mean and that mindset still persist even now. "Yeah, microtransactions are important, which is why it's nonsensical to moan why one game is favored another." If Pixzard believed at last a little bit in giving sc1 a chance they would have introduced micro transactions into sc1. "And I agree that's what this topic is about, so why was that guy bringing up figures that aren't applicable?" One can dream and the frustration can lead to have unrealistic expectations. I can see how TL members have become sc2-centric and I understand why: Team liquid played a role in the betray of brood war but in the same time have played a role to promote and build the e-sport in the west so we could leave our nerdy caverns to share our e- sport passion with the world. The sad truth is that we've sacrificed on the cross a good and innocent game. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On May 04 2018 22:50 MarcoJ wrote: Yes this might be. But is SC2 not broadcastet on Korean TV? How many ppl from the "old days" have maybe switched to SC2? How much people are that actually? You are still claiming things without a single proof. Even just a news article or a quote from a person thats in Korea (like Artosis, Tasteless, Rapid whatever). I dont like the style of having a discussion. Let me assume something: Koreans don't give a single s**t of sc2. Maybe you don't like me but I still like you <3 | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9532 Posts
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