EPTI've tried hydras, mutas. Shit doesn't work
How the fuck do I beat mass goliath
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XERX
85 Posts
I've tried hydras, mutas. Shit doesn't work | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On August 02 2017 08:17 XERX wrote: I've been playing Zerg they go mass factories after 1 rax fe. Whats the unit comp to counter this? I've tried hydras, mutas. Shit doesn't work Generally you'd open muta. Lurkers really can't do anything effective against early tank/gol mech. With goliath range done don't really expect to go crazy with harass. From there you'd be looking to expand quickly to at least a third and quite possibly a 4th depending on what terran is doing; and then massing hydra. If he goes pure goliath and you die, you're either just not where you need to be from a macro perspective so you either 1)Droned too hard 2)Didn't have sufficient bases (one or two is definitely not enough) 3)Too much bank The idea then is that terran will usually add a few tanks and do some sort of two base attack with tank goliath. Muta's are used to try and snipe any tanks that are out of position, and then can be used to kill the tanks in general during the fight will soaking goliath damage, and then the hydra clean through the rest. 95% chance your difficulty stems from a macro/build origin. How soon are you getting a third? How many drones and hatcheries do you have at the time he is moving out? If you're not on 30-40 drones minimum and 5 or more hatches, then you're flat out just getting outproduced. If you're getting those numbers, or more, but just don't have an army, then it might be down to a case of unit times. Zerg has a large element of unit making timing (maybe this holds for SC2 as well?) in that you generally want to spam drones until the last possible moment you can, then start flooding units. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 02 2017 08:34 L_Master wrote: 95% chance your difficulty stems from a macro/build origin. probably this, but to directly respond to your question...the only unit compositions that I can think of that doesn't counter mass goliaths are mass lurkers and mass zlings. Everything else should work. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada759 Posts
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Piste
6174 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10119 Posts
On August 02 2017 08:17 XERX wrote: I've been playing Zerg they go mass factories after 1 rax fe. Whats the unit comp to counter this? I've tried hydras, mutas. Shit doesn't work honestly it just sounds like your macro just isnt there. even pure muta beats goliath with the splash that mutas have. pure hydra or hydra ling is super good, swarm with lings are great, plague then mass lings is great, etc. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On August 02 2017 08:26 vileChAnCe wrote: this can't be serious? they have like the lowest cost efficient ground dmg. like anything on the ground should trade pound for pound on the ground.. you should be really stoked if they are massing goliaths I'm guessing that the OP is playing on an extremely low level (and welcome! It's nice to finally have new players again in Brood war). Goliaths are strong for noobs because they can attack anything, build slowly enough that they're easy to macro, and are in small enough numbers that they're easy to micro. Like L_master said the counter (like it almost always is for noobs) is to just get better at macro. Follow some sort of fast-expand build order, drone up, spend all your money. The army composition you use matters a lot less against Goliaths than just having enough units. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
But seriously, post a replay | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9492 Posts
On August 02 2017 17:38 ninazerg wrote: I know a really good game where Sziky plays against Sea, and Sea goes mass goliath. You should watch it, and you'll see just how easy it is to beat mass goliath. Yeah, mass goliaths suck. Here's the VOD of that game: | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Effort also lost to it vs Light in one of the recent ASLs. Provide a replay, and listen mainly to bakuryu  In short though, you have 2 reliable options: 1. mass mutalisks Get your third base up as soon as possible, you shouldn't need to build the 3 usual sunkens, as is necessary vs bio most of the times. Research +1 air carapace as soon as possible, saturate that third geyser, and harass "lightly". In my opinion, do not trade mutalisks for SCVs since you will need every single mutalisk. 2. Mutalisks and hydralisks. You can harass slightly harder since you'll rely more on the hydras to stop his push. Go up to 5 hatches quickly, get +1 air carapace, hydra upgrades, and +1 ranged attack asap. Do not overdrone or you will get crushed. The mutas will be there to soak up damage from goliaths while the hydralisks deal damage. If he does NOT move out after seeing you make a lot of hydras, from experience I feel it is important to attack yourself. Do not wait to attack until terran has a few siegetanks or you will regret it. In fact I still very much struggle versus this build because in the latter situation I will often destroy my economy too much preparing for that goliath push. But as I said, sometimes they delay their push even more and wait for a few tanks making all those hydras die really quickly, while your economy is in shambles preventing you from reinforcing as quickly as he can. Some extra tips: - Sunkens are great vs goliaths and can be used to buy time. - Versus greedy mech play with a low factory count, you can even Muta Ling all-in him. If you get on top of his factories with lings and mutas, it will be very hard for the terran to recover. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I even remember Boxer raping someone with mass goliaths against mass mutas in some old, old game. Anyway, with a slight micro goliaths > mutas. That Sea vs Sziky game shows how it works. Imagine Sea adding 2-3 tanks to that composition and Sziky would get steamrolled even faster and easier. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
@739 BoxeR raped prime sAviOr with mass goliaths vs mass mutas on Monty Hall. Maybe that's the game? | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 02 2017 22:45 c3rberUs wrote: Going mass muta versus mass goliaths? That sounds like a great idea... for the terran player. Goliaths are pretty deadly en masse. @739 BoxeR raped prime sAviOr with mass goliaths vs mass mutas on Monty Hall. Maybe that's the game? You're probably right. That's the game  | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
On August 02 2017 22:45 c3rberUs wrote: Going mass muta versus mass goliaths? That sounds like a great idea... for the terran player. Goliaths are pretty deadly en masse. @739 BoxeR raped prime sAviOr with mass goliaths vs mass mutas on Monty Hall. Maybe that's the game? Mutas are actually really good vs goliaths. Goliaths have good ground to air single target damage, but don't let that fool you. Or Savior dropping one game to Boxer. Or Sziky losing to Sea.. Mutas are extremely strong untill there's valkyries or vessels with the goliath army. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Piste
6174 Posts
On August 03 2017 03:23 739 wrote: If we're talking about mass mutas vs mass goliaths - mass goliaths will win in every scenario. Yo do you even broodwar? Goliaths have massive ground to air single target damage with long range, but other than that they are slow, clumsy and quite expensive units. Since mutas are small units, goliaths will do only 50% dmg to them. Mutalisk shoots bouncing glaives up to three targets and can in mass fights they stack unlike goliaths. Their mobility plays the biggest role in actual games tho. Maybe you have seen just too many desperate lategame unupgraded muta switches vs 3-3 mech. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
unit size doesn't matter when goliaths have more range, more dps (even taking size type and splash damage into account), more hp, lower cost, etc on top of that upgrades on gols are much stronger than upgrades on mutas u can backstab the main which is difficult for T to deal with but that doesn't kill goliaths | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'm not into theorycrafting, I'm more into what previous games showed us. I can't recall a single pro or semi-pro game in muta vs goliaths scenario where the zerg player came out with advantage but I've seen couple of game where I saw exactly the opposite effect. And yes, you're right. In theory muta with splash damage should come out on top against goliaths, because of the damage and splash BUT goliaths are : cheaper, have more range, have more health and you can micro it. | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany414 Posts
On August 03 2017 04:48 Dead9 wrote: on top of that upgrades on gols are much stronger than upgrades on mutas they are not you get +4 on goliaths it's 2 attacks so it's 2x2dmg vs small unis it's 2x1dmg which is countered by a single armor upgrade on mutalisks | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, muta glaive 2nd (3rd) bounce is always /3( /9), so +1 muta attack on +1goliath is: (10-2), (3.33-2), (1.11-2). Not sure how the last one is calculated though, it's some rng, but you can see the goliath upgrade is again stronger. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On August 03 2017 06:31 yB.TeH wrote: they are not you get +4 on goliaths it's 2 attacks so it's 2x2dmg vs small unis it's 2x1dmg which is countered by a single armor upgrade on mutalisks Yeah but armor upgrades wreck the glaive bounce damage. The Muta attack upgrades only give 1/3 bonus to the bounce, but the armor upgrade still subtracts a full point. So with full upgrades the muta bounces do almost nothing, and you're just left with one hit for 8 damage while the goliaths hit you for 10. Plus they have more health, more range, and only cost 50 gas. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 02 2017 19:12 2Pacalypse- wrote: Yeah, mass goliaths suck. Here's the VOD of that game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO-QTn46LTo Sziky was also down 0-1 on upgrades vs 2-2. plus was on even bases. I dont think he would have won that regardless | ||
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Highgamer
1401 Posts
One group is talking about pro-level and no-mistake-games only - the other group is talking about 90% of the games being played where everything can happen... so none is 100% correct, aight? With relatively good, evenly matched players facing each other, goliaths have the advantage. If the game unfolds somewhat normally, if Terran knows what to do and doesn't take a big blow early, then enough well upgraded goliaths should be out in time to deal with the mutas at all points in time. Zerg can do some harrass but has to transition eventually. BUT: Writing "gols win mutas in every scenario" is just plain bull****, you have to admit that if you're not a complete ignorant or make private assumptions what 'every scenario' means (aka: you don't know what 'every' means). If Terran doesn't know what to do, takes a blow earlier, plays the early game the wrong way, mutas can beat gols. You cannot just exclude those scenarios by default as in "Idiot, we're only talking about perfect games here, self explanatory...". Gols can be overwhelmed if the Zerg uses his mobility advantage to cripple, buy time, expand. And if we're talking about lower levels or not evenly matched opponents - of course mutas can seem unbeatable even with all the gols a newb can produce. Makes me sad everytime when some smart-arse barges into such a thread and tells the guy that what he experienced could not have happened... Guy should post replay tho... these threads wouldn't derail like that... | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Never engage with pure muta, they are used to buy time only. They should be used in combination with hydra/ling to become cost effective. To summarize, beating mech is about overall game management and efficient macro. Not taking damage to vulture run bys, and not wasting units on losing fights. Use Sunkens to drone up! Sunkens are super effective against goliaths because of their high armor/hp. A few hydras early at the proper places with proper building sim cities will protect you from vultures efficiently. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
 It's not a good example. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 03 2017 14:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: And to comment on the Sziky vs Sea game... common. Sea out classes Sziky by so much It's not a good example.Boxer doesn't outclass sAviOr at his prime time | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/513900-zvt-how-to-play-vs-pure-mech | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
The key here is that you should take a far-away third expansion and research lurker. During the basetrade, you can focus on killing his scans pretty easily, and then you can spread some lurkers around on the map making his goliath army unable to really walk around much. If he gets a vessel before attacking, you need to focus on building scourge. Frankly, when I've tried to engage the first tank goliath attack head on, it's close, and I lose against players that are mechanically superior to me. But it's a really immobile army and it doesn't reproduce fast at all. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
To clarify, 0 0 goliath vs 0 0 muta is 10 damage for goliath, 8-2-0.5 for muta. 1-1 goliath vs 1-1 muta ends up being 11 damage for goliath. You have two attacks dealing 10+2 damage, then you subtract 1 armor from both of those, then you have 2x11, then you split that in half because of explosive. Mutas on the other hand end up dealing 8-1.3-0.5. 2-2 vs 2-2 you get 12 damage for goliaths and 8-0.5-0.5. 3-3 vs 3-3 ends up with 13 for goliath, 8-0.5-0.5 for muta. This is a massive difference from the 10 vs 8-2, or occasional 10 vs 9-2.3 you can get early on - and it's certainly true that a big muta army can destroy unsupported unupgraded and outnumbered goliaths. And this doesn't even take into account that when terran is meching, they'll often have two armories against one spire, so in reality you get like 2-2 goliath vs 2-0 mutas and stuff like that. This math is a little simplified and rounded down, but this is basically how the numbers play out. Like I guess on a map like blue storm, you could do 2 hatch muta into 3 gas muta and flat out win a muta vs goliath war against someone doing 5 factory pure goliath, but most mech iterations on most maps won't really let you do that. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2036 Posts
- go for fast tech so you can get lurkers / swarm in time while taking 4 bases total - go for mass muta / hydra timing where you can try to outmacro terran and win in a straight fight or for something like Drone mentioned in above post. Whatever you do you should make a bunch of mutas for harassment when possible. Both situations, when you see terran being somewhat defensive try to take +1-2 bases asap. Of course terrans tend to play different "mass goliath" builds that vary from fast 4-5 goliath pushes to slow 3 base high upgrade high limit goliaths. Also the beggining of the game may be purely economical or a terran can do different vulture openings. | ||
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Crispy-G
3 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
With that being said, when I was dabbling in the realm of Terran play, I could not win vs Zerg except with mass goliaths. Now, on the surface that seems weird, but when you get down into the details, it's easy to see why it's so effective at a lower level of play. For Terran, as a low level player, going mass goliaths gives you a few key advantages: You don't have to balance gas heavy/min heavy units You have flexibility to deal with ground units (as their numbers will be low before you move) and mutas You don't really have to worry about lurkers You can relatively easily move out on the map vs any composition to pressure the zerg 3rd You don't have to siege You only really have to micro against Muta (if you get caught in a bad position vs Hydra, you might as well just leave the game, no micro involved) As Zerg, you have a lot more concerns Defending your third as you are vulnerable regardless which composition you go for unless your macro is on par Not overcompensating with too many units Not committing too much to micro while letting your macro slip Harass the Terran so that he can't easily contain you (or take a third) | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=39984185772697130587 Ty2 vs TerranBoy, both A rank players. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
I want to see the thread starter's reaction to this discussion. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
That proves that they suck, now the task of the thread is to prove why and how. :pMy terran hunch is that mass hydra just rolls over me if I do it. Hydras are brutal units. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On August 05 2017 17:00 Zariel wrote: Uhhh... ever heard of Dark Swarm? k. And about the first 15 minutes of the game? | ||
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blackmanpl
63 Posts
Don't worry OP, much better players lose to this bs at random. + Show Spoiler + Most of the ppl here I haven't ever seen on ladder, but they seem to have a lot of experience ;-) | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 05 2017 18:32 blackmanpl wrote: It's a hard allin to beat, and on imbalanced maps like FS and Jade, it is a legit strategy, very tricky to beat. Don't worry OP, much better players lose to this bs at random. + Show Spoiler + Most of the ppl here I haven't ever seen on ladder, but they seem to have a lot of experience ;-) yeah, cause we're all using names from TL.net on ladder Please calm down radley or whoever you are. If someone wasn't A on ICCup doesn't mean he can't give advices. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 05 2017 19:09 ortseam wrote: It's Julia Right, how I could not spot the biggest whiner on polish forums :D | ||
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blackmanpl
63 Posts
If someone wasn't A on ICCup doesn't mean he can't give advices. 739 what is your rank on icc then? or nickname? I'm olympic ranked: https://iccup.com/en/starcraft/gamingprofile/Julia.html Give all the advice you want, never said you can't. + Show Spoiler + how I could not spot the biggest whiner on polish forums Normally people get warned for personal attacks. Stop making up stories. You don't read the polish forum and you don't know my nickname there. You don't even know my nickname here rotfl | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 05 2017 20:13 blackmanpl wrote: 739 what is your rank on icc then? or nickname? I'm olympic ranked: https://iccup.com/en/starcraft/gamingprofile/Julia.html Give all the advice you want, never said you can't. + Show Spoiler + how I could not spot the biggest whiner on polish forums Normally people get warned for personal attacks. Stop making up stories. You don't read the polish forum and you don't know my nickname there. You don't even know my nickname here rotfl Well, I'm actually polish and I read netwars on a daily basis, so, got you. (I'm a lurker, don't even have an account, but I follow the polish scene since like forever) Anyway, back to the topic. Gratz on you being olympic player, such an achievement. I never written anywhere that you're a bad player nor did I said I'm better. I just stated that anyone that wasn't olympic rank can give advices - what's more, advices that are useful. | ||
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radley
Poland582 Posts
Oh, and yeah, blackman as Julia's fn is well known on Polish scene, so... got you? I wonder if you even know his real nickname, since Julia isn't it too. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
there are also variants where the terran will go 1 or 2 port wraith into expo goliath pushes, but these are even weaker if you defend it correctly (don't get ling speed, get a hydra den when you start lair, then get 2 hydras and hydra speed and tech/expo as normal, then when you get mutas spread overlords to clear mines and expo like crazy). then just own the goliath tank push with massive amounts of hydras/mutas when it comes. also, remember that you want +1 air carapace since it will apply twice vs the goliath AA attack, doubling its cost effectiveness edit~ i never get lings vs early mech past the first scouts, i find that they're absolutely useless until dark swarm comes out and they always just end up losing the game for me. i honestly play more macro vs mech openers than i do vs standard zvp games, where i typically am on 4 bases before 60 suppy (at least on 투혼) second edit, the threads that i was referencing: first thread second thread | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On August 05 2017 23:01 radley wrote: 739, based on that you've already ruined couple of my sophisticated trollings here, I may assume, you are not even lurking netwars forum. Because the other option would be that you are too silly to understand, that it's trolling in style of that forum. Your seriousness is typical for teamliquid community standards. With no offence to anyone :-) Oh, and yeah, blackman as Julia's fn is well known on Polish scene, so... got you? I wonder if you even know his real nickname, since Julia isn't it too. You mean Kinslayer? And nah, he's not trolling, he's just taking everything too seriously and blames everyone around But that's just my opinion and let's not derail this thread anymore. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
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Jealous
10113 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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docholiday_tv
108 Posts
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Jealous
10113 Posts
On August 06 2017 21:32 docholiday_tv wrote: I have trouble with the goliath 2 base timing as well. Its def strong, but just keep working on it. Ive found myself able to beat it amount of the time now. The muta into hydra is the best route, just try to see it coming ahead of time so you dont find yourself unprepared. You have to keep poking with Muta to confirm the factory count because there is this fun build which you open Rax FE -> 2 Fac Goliath -> Marine + Medic + Siege tank. You trick Zerg into going Hydra then murder them with MnM while Goliath protect your Siege Tank from Muta.. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
It looked like the zerg used his mobility to great effect to force the terran back, but it just seemed like the Zerg fumbled away his third to two goliaths and lost because of that. | ||
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Jealous
10113 Posts
On August 06 2017 23:49 KungKras wrote: Those games were really good It looked like the zerg used his mobility to great effect to force the terran back, but it just seemed like the Zerg fumbled away his third to two goliaths and lost because of that. At that time he also split his army in half for a moment and ended up accruing too many losses in one of the engagements iirc. | ||
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
2) Mass goliath with a few tanks is good. Assuming the Terran is good and you open with 3h muta, you want to use muta to the fullest extent to keep Terran from pushing out until you have enough hydra to surround and engage. There are a few points within this sentence that I will explain explicitly. 1) You should send a ling or two into the terran natural to see his unit composition. Always have lings in front of his base to deny scv scout leaving and to see when he's moving out. If you see a vulture, 1 sunken at the front of your base is fine to deter it. 2) Assuming you are 100% with 3h muta opening, take the fastest 3rd you can. It's often better to take the closer 3rd against mech instead of corner. With the fast 3rd gas, you can make extra mutas and swap out the lower hp ones so you can continue to harass. This also allows you to get a faster evo chamber for +1 +1 upgrades. Upgrade +1 air carapace after you make your initial mutas. While you are harassing, keep a mental note of his army size. Terran's dont push out on 2 base until theyre over 100 supply, so you have about ~10 minutes. 3) While youre harassing with muta, you want to make mass hydra. You can stay on lair tech longer, and take a 4th while you're comfortable with your army supply. Make mutas when you see your gas starting to rise over 500. 4) Prior to engagement, you want to have lots of vision of the minimap. If you don't, you most likely won't win. Your mutas can fucking fly. You need to be able to see his reinforcements and his army pathing so that you can optimize your angles and position. During engagement, you want as much surface area as possible, and target down tanks with your mutas. Try to stall until your upgrades are finished. Mech vs zerg is pretty volatile. If you smash his army, you autowin. If you snipe his tanks before the engage, it buys you a lot of time OR it gives you a huge advantage if he decides to allin. If you lose your mutas, you are very far behind, so don't do this. Once you have 4 bases saturated you can have like 7 hatcheries sustaining hydras. Any time gas goes up, make mutas. Get hive before your +2+2 is done so that you can finish your upgrades on time. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep | ||
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
On August 08 2017 02:04 Liquid`Ret wrote: cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong. I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep Yup. It very much is a tight rope to walk in terms of droning. Positioning is important too, but it's tough on maps like FS with short distances and limited terrain/angles. Hi Ret <3 | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
Lurker + Muta → Queens (Defiler is probs better, but lol) Effort used his mutas to snipe 1 tank, but the long range of the goliaths shut down more than that. Effort went for Queens in that game, and though, lol, Light moved in just before Spawn Broodling could charge (so the Broodlings only came in after the tanks had killed all the hydras). But what if Effort had Lurkers? Kill vessels, kill tanks, can't machine-gun lurkers can you? Lol IDK what I'm talking about :D | ||
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Jealous
10113 Posts
On August 08 2017 04:12 bITt.mAN wrote: My tinfoil hat is tingling, it's telling me: Lurker + Muta → Queens (Defiler is probs better, but lol) Effort used his mutas to snipe 1 tank, but the long range of the goliaths shut down more than that. Effort went for Queens in that game, and though, lol, Light moved in just before Spawn Broodling could charge (so the Broodlings only came in after the tanks had killed all the hydras). But what if Effort had Lurkers? Kill vessels, kill tanks, can't machine-gun lurkers can you? Lol IDK what I'm talking about :D Goliaths fare really well against Lurkers actually. That's part of the reason why you almost never see them in late-game ZvT imo. Scan is still a thing as is target-firing. At this juncture Zerg should be heavily pressed for gas and resources in general as well. Just my take on it, not sure if I'm off-base here. | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
Also, lurkers are bad vs mech unless you have defiler. They cost a lot of time and gas which you could otherwise be putting into hydra or muta (or queens or ultralisks). Their dps is also low vs goliath. | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
On August 08 2017 02:04 Liquid`Ret wrote: cc first 4-5 fact goliath as an allin seems strong. If you drone up your 3rd (10++ drones) you will die to it from my experience. start producing hydras very early on and try to flank the army. Dont think you will have time to counter attack. This happend to me a few days ago and it was really strong. I overdroned in this game by about 5-6 drones (but still mined less than the terran), I also was forced to engage before hydra range. I think if I make 6 drones less, get a quicker hydra range, and maybe 1 less upgrade, I suppose I defeat this attack handily. Another thing I couldve done is put down 3 sunkens but then you kinda need them at both bases. It's a very tight rope to walk on. I had never faced this strategy since returning to the game, so it caught me off guard. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/LiquidRet/231745Jade_21_iCCup.rep I'm guessing this coupled with what others had said about opening mutas. Mutas would allow you to identify the all-in in time before you even put down a third hatchery. From there on follow Rets advice I'd say. If I'm terran I really don't want mutas early on because it forces me to stay in my base and invest into turrets (despite goliaths, at least initially) and it also gives the zerg enough time to react to what they are seeing and adapt accordingly. What I think is imperative is also not neglecting a third base, you cannot fight terran on even bases. So if the terran just sits, it gets tougher, because then you'd have to use mutas again to gather enough intel to decide whether you have time to squeeze out a round of drones to saturate a third and get range/armor upgrades going for your hydras, eventually even looking to take a fourth base. Easy tells which should prompt you to squeeze in a round of drones is if you see an armory upgrading, a third CC beubg built or if the factory count stops at 4 and Terran is getting a starport (means to unlock +2 and +3 = going for a longer game). If massgoliaths ever extend to a late game where Terran opts for a third base and +2 upgrades and so forth. I'd say it becomes a game of simply abusing the fact that Terran isn't very mobile with this type of army and that he has to move with all of his goliaths to the same place if he wants to fight efficiently. This is done by simply massexpanding all over the map, while sacking bases that Terran commits his entire army to kill. If terran commits his entire army for an expo snipe, that means you should be countering him somewhere else (i.e. his third exp or natural). Don't engage a +2 or +3 goliath army head on unless the supply is heavily in your favour or if you have hive tech and dark swarm. | ||
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On August 08 2017 22:43 dignitas.merz wrote: I'm guessing this coupled with what others had said about opening mutas. Mutas would allow you to identify the all-in in time before you even put down a third hatchery. From there on follow Rets advice I'd say. If I'm terran I really don't want mutas early on because it forces me to stay in my base and invest into turrets (despite goliaths, at least initially) and it also gives the zerg enough time to react to what they are seeing and adapt accordingly. What I think is imperative is also not neglecting a third base, you cannot fight terran on even bases. So if the terran just sits, it gets tougher, because then you'd have to use mutas again to gather enough intel to decide whether you have time to squeeze out a round of drones to saturate a third and get range/armor upgrades going for your hydras, eventually even looking to take a fourth base. Easy tells which should prompt you to squeeze in a round of drones is if you see an armory upgrading, a third CC beubg built or if the factory count stops at 4 and Terran is getting a starport (means to unlock +2 and +3 = going for a longer game). If massgoliaths ever extend to a late game where Terran opts for a third base and +2 upgrades and so forth. I'd say it becomes a game of simply abusing the fact that Terran isn't very mobile with this type of army and that he has to move with all of his goliaths to the same place if he wants to fight efficiently. This is done by simply massexpanding all over the map, while sacking bases that Terran commits his entire army to kill. If terran commits his entire army for an expo snipe, that means you should be countering him somewhere else (i.e. his third exp or natural). Don't engage a +2 or +3 goliath army head on unless the supply is heavily in your favour or if you have hive tech and dark swarm. there is a hard stop to mech if the terran gets a third base just like there is to bio... once zerg has the space to get to hive, the game instantly becomes a traditional macro game because terran has no cost efficient way to bust swarm/lurkers with nydus mobility. the only strength of the goliath attack is ending the game right then and there, otherwise it doesn't have the mobility that early bio has to keep the zerg in check expansion wise. that's the point of the mutas, you won't be able to engage the mineral lines like you traditionally would but you can certainly keep the terran in the dark and kill any vultures looking for bases. furthermore, the mutas help during the engagement because they tank and the goliaths target them over the hydralisks. edit~ with regard to your bases point, i advocate a fast 3rd (traditional 3 hatch muta timing) and an extremely fast 4th (probably 5 or 6 drones after your 3rd is placed). the terran shouldn't be able to see your drone counts so he can't commit an attack without allining, at which point your economy should be poised to pretty easily topple the attack (just be extremely careful not to overdrone, or you'll handily lose). keep scouting and denying scounting and play traditionally, kinda like zvp | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
- When and how much to drone. If you drone too much and the timing attack hits you will have no units. If you drone too little you will have no army. - What to do with your first 11 mutas (very important). If you over-commit and lose mutas you will have less to hold off the timing push - When and where to take your third. Ideally taking the near 3rd would be better since you can reinforce faster. - How to delay the timing push, should you counter attack or not? Even if you make 1 mistake from the above the it can snowball and be really hard to comeback from. | ||
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paxconsciente
Belgium91 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On August 09 2017 12:21 Dante08 wrote: Facing 1 rax Fe into goliath timing is really hard to beat. You will need to know: - When and how much to drone. If you drone too much and the timing attack hits you will have no units. If you drone too little you will have no army. - What to do with your first 11 mutas (very important). If you over-commit and lose mutas you will have less to hold off the timing push - When and where to take your third. Ideally taking the near 3rd would be better since you can reinforce faster. - How to delay the timing push, should you counter attack or not? Even if you make 1 mistake from the above the it can snowball and be really hard to comeback from. i agree with your points, but (if you're playing on fighting spirit) you should be taking the normal 3rd for the 1 ramp highground defense (the base furthest from your opponent, or the base furthest from his normal expansion pathing). the mutas point is very important, because the function of the mutas is completely different than it is when playing vs bio, you need all that you can get because it's directly proportional to how much you can safely drone. As far as delaying the push goes, i don't think you should engage until you plan to fully commit the attack, otherwise you're just playing to the terran army's strength since zerg's early armies are weak in few numbers against mech balls. likewise, i don't like backstabbing because i have just had the mech army and either just kill my army in his base, or just kill my nat/main and then come back and kill it. in theory it might work, but pragmatically i have never been able to make it work in this scenario | ||
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SiaBBo
Finland132 Posts
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rainman2
1 Post
On August 02 2017 11:07 Luddite wrote: Goliaths are strong for noobs because they can attack anything, build slowly enough that they're easy to macro, and are in small enough numbers that they're easy to micro. You just described every protoss army composition and most zerg ones. But pretend like you didn;t know that. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
You new here? (1 post) | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19028 Posts
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