I played this game yesterday that had the terran go for a fast expansion into goliaths after which he transitioned back into marine medic.
Here's a short summary of the game:
1. I opened 12 hatch while he opened with 14 CC. 2. I go for standard 3 hatch play. He went with 1 barracks into 2 factories and made 4 speed vultures hoping to do some damage. I repel his attack completely. 3. Next I play conservatively with my mutas while getting the +1 air carapace. I double expanded behind this while going for +1 ranged attacks and getting the hydralisk speed and range upgrades. 4.Once I get +1 carapace on my mutas, I start harassing his natural mineral line taking out a substantial amount of SCVs. 5. Next he suddenly shows up with a marine medic army complemented with his golaiths. I only have mutalisks and hydralisks, which are ineffective. 6. I eventually lose the game.
I hadn't played versus this before so it took me off guard.
After analyzing the replay, there are a few things that I think I should have done differently and some things about which I'm still uncertain.
1. In response to his 14 CC, I was thinking about opening 3 hatch before pool but in the moment I decided against it. Is there anything surpising a terran can do aside from a bunker rush that would put me at a disadvantage?
Also, who is generally ahead in a situation of 14 cc vs 3 hatch before pool?
2. When my mutalisks first spawned I harassed his main and saw his engineering bay. I did not pay attention to the fact that it was flashing and researching.
This was a clear indication that he intended on switching to marine medic.
3. I should always try to gather as much information as possible. In case the engineering bay was not build in that location, I should have scouted above his natural. Then I would have seen his 4 barracks.
4. After identifying he's going goliath into marine medic, I should have started researching lurker aspect.
5. Should I still make hydralisks against this type of build? Or should I go for the regular zergling lurker mutalisk army?
If you use an early drone scout for a 14 CC, absolutely go 3 hatch before pool. This was actually a tactic commonly used against FlaSh back in his days of 14CC beats everything where Zergs would send a 9 drone scout while going 12 hatch (usually on a 2-3 player map). If they scout the 14CC first, they go 3 hatch before pool.
The MnM+goliath push has gotten some more notice these days because it is an incredibly strong early game push, but also gives up any form of map control if the push doesn't work.
Now, mutas are also great for scouting information. You can fly into his base while harassing and see what kind of tech he's going for. Definitely be on the lookout for what he's building.
If you've double expanded, use the gas and tech fast to hive.
Ultimately, it comes down to the scouting to react appropriately. Speedlings are also pretty good against Goliaths and getting a surround on marines to help with muta/hydra engage is always good too.
This build is absolutely devastating if not scouted by zerg, I mean the (Russian?) terran Advokate used it to defeat Jaedong at (WCG?)
Video:
When you have mutas, it is crucial to check around his base if you even feel like this transition is happening, I think even sacrificing 1-2 mutas to have a peek around his base is worth it.
If you use an early drone scout for a 14 CC, absolutely go 3 hatch before pool. This was actually a tactic commonly used against FlaSh back in his days of 14CC beats everything where Zergs would send a 9 drone scout while going 12 hatch (usually on a 2-3 player map). If they scout the 14CC first, they go 3 hatch before pool.
The MnM+goliath push has gotten some more notice these days because it is an incredibly strong early game push, but also gives up any form of map control if the push doesn't work.
Now, mutas are also great for scouting information. You can fly into his base while harassing and see what kind of tech he's going for. Definitely be on the lookout for what he's building.
If you've double expanded, use the gas and tech fast to hive.
Ultimately, it comes down to the scouting to react appropriately. Speedlings are also pretty good against Goliaths and getting a surround on marines to help with muta/hydra engage is always good too.
Thanks. I'll definitely do a 3 hatch before pool in the future.
On October 19 2016 04:08 hellokitty[hk] wrote: Harass aggressively with your mutas when they spawn, not after +1 finishes.
I don't harass aggressively with mutas in the event that it is a 5-6 factory mass goliath push, but this is where scouting should come into play. Losing mutas versus this particular build always results in my losing the game when he pushes.
I'll have to determine how many factories he has, is he researching from his engineering bay, is he adding barracks,... is he getting a starport? etc.
@razorsuke Cool. There are some definite parallels aside from the openings which are vastly different.
Game 1 between FlaSh and Jaedong at the Bigfile MSL Finals in 2010
Game starts at 17:53
Before the second game starts, the replay of the first game shows that JD went for Hydra Range and +1 Missile Atk, so JD was not expecting an attack with Marines. Also, he did not see any of the Barracks with his Mutas.
1. In response to his 14 CC, I was thinking about opening 3 hatch before pool but in the moment I decided against it. Is there anything surpising a terran can do aside from a bunker rush that would put me at a disadvantage?
If the Terran player opens 14 CC, he can't do a bunker rush. Unless he does something totally crazy like an all-in SCV attack, you are safe to do 3 hatch before pool. Back in the day sAviOr was quite successful with this opening. It's no big deal, though, if you open as you did.
Also, who is generally ahead in a situation of 14 cc vs 3 hatch before pool?
Neither player is ahead. 3 Hatch before Pool is the Zerg equivalent of 14 CC.
2. When my mutalisks first spawned I harassed his main and saw his engineering bay. I did not pay attention to the fact that it was flashing and researching.
This was a clear indication that he intended on switching to marine medic
Yes, this is true. In the FvJ game above, Flash hid his Ebay in the corner of his base so JD wouldn't know about his incoming attack with Marines.
3. I should always try to gather as much information as possible. In case the engineering bay was not build in that location, I should have scouted above his natural. Then I would have seen his 4 barracks.
Your biggest mistake this game was that your scouting was absolutely horrible. You assumed he was going to do this big mech push off 4-5 Factories, and your strategy would have worked against that. However, since marines are so efficient against Mutas and Hydras, there wasn't much you could do when he pushed.
Lurkers are the answer to any Marine army. Back them up with Hydras to handle the Goliaths. You should use your initial 9 Mutas to harass the SCV line AND scout the Terran base. It's so important to know what he's spending his money on. Sacrifice a Muta or two if you have to. Is he going for a 5-Factory push when +1 Armor finishes? Is he going for 4-Factory Starport for a big attack when +2 Weapons/+1 Armor finishes? These are the most common things to look out for vs. 2 base mech. When you don't scout, you leave the door wide open for a Terran player to surprise you with some funky build like this (2 Fact Goliaths -> 4 Rax Marines) or 4-Port Wraith for example.
4. After identifying he's going goliath into marine medic, I should have started researching lurker aspect
Yes.
5. Should I still make hydralisks against this type of build? Or should I go for the regular zergling lurker mutalisk army?
Yes, make some Hydras because they are cost-effective against Goliaths, and they are much cheaper than Mutas. Save your gas for Lurkers. Without Science Vessels he would've had to rely on Comsat Scan. Spend your excess minerals on Sunken Colonies (not Zerglings) and defend your 4 bases until you have enough to overwhelm his 2 base Marine/Goliath army.
Having said all this, I just want to compliment your harassment skills. You took out so many SCVs at his natural, and you kept up with him in supply the whole game. That defense against the speed Vulture run-by was also quite brilliant with the Drone block. Amazing.
Some mistakes the Terran player made: 1. No wall at the natural and only a handful of Marines to defend until the Vultures came out. 2. +1 Armor (not +1 Weapons) should be researched for the Goliaths because their purpose is to absorb damage for the Marines. The Marines are what deal the real damage. 3. He had no Science Vessels 4. He had very bad scouting.
I hope this was helpful to you. Good luck in your future games. FYI, I'm a D- Zerg player on iCCup.
Thank you very much for your detailed post, which contains all the information I needed. The game of Flash versus Jaedong was also a perfect exemplar of the game I experienced, so thank you for taking the time to look for it
As a side note, I would not have guessed you to be a D- player judging from your knowledge, which seems to be very much on point.
Just two small notes from another D zerg (lol): 1. Always a treat to see scvs dying to drones, but you could have scouted fast gas and lack of ebay/acad so you could have known it's a factory opening 2. (Irrelevant to this game) : You might want to speed up a bit your +1 missile, I think Terran with 4/5 fact Goliath attack will have a big window between yours and his upgrade (not sure though, maybe you are taking this into account by delaying with backstabs/sunkens)
On October 20 2016 23:22 LaStScan wrote: imo, biomech is only useful in 2 player maps and no ramp 3 player maps as well.
why isn't it good on bigger maps?
If theres an another starting point in a map then its telling us zerg has a potential to have 6 bases(in general) in late game. Same for terran in 4 players maps but as you know it is hard to play late mech with that opening cuz zerg will make massive hydra and harass a lot with 11 muta(zerg will confirm terran build by harassing.
On October 20 2016 23:22 LaStScan wrote: imo, biomech is only useful in 2 player maps and no ramp 3 player maps as well.
why isn't it good on bigger maps?
If theres an another starting point in a map then its telling us zerg has a potential to have 6 bases(in general) in late game. Same for terran in 4 players maps but as you know it is hard to play late mech with that opening cuz zerg will make massive hydra and harass a lot with 11 muta(zerg will confirm terran build by harassing.
Thank you for sharing your insights scan. Do you believe this build to be weaker on a map like FS solely due to it having issues transitioning in case its push doesn't do enough damage? Or do you also think certain features of FS make the initial push with marine-medic-goliath less strong?
EPT
