EPTLegal Brood War Keyboard
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
software modifications/macro/scripts/hotkey changer are always illegal | ||
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Mutaller
United States1049 Posts
Fwi other language versions of starcraft have different hotkeys, if that is something you want to try. | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On January 13 2016 12:03 reps)squishy wrote: Servers cannot tell if you are using remapped keys for example switching m to t or something like that. They may detect modified mpq files (modding starcraft hotkeys themselves.) I am all for remapping hotkeys 1 keystroke 1 action is perfectly legit. But having macros where 1 keystroke equal more than one action is down right cheating. The only time I would support someone using a macros is if they are physically handicapped. Fwi other language versions of starcraft have different hotkeys, if that is something you want to try. yeah remapped keys cannot really be detected, but they are still ruled as illegal anyway (in ladder and almost all actual tourneys). At the amateur level I don't think anyone cares much about a couple of swapped hotkeys unless you out yourself. and pros will still beat you anyway. But macro/scripts is real downright bad. Most official big tourneys also enforce the use of English version BW if im not mistaken. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On January 13 2016 12:24 Probemicro wrote: yeah remapped keys cannot really be detected, but they are still ruled as illegal anyway (in ladder and almost all actual tourneys). At the amateur level I don't think anyone cares much about a couple of swapped hotkeys unless you out yourself. and pros will still beat you anyway. But macro/scripts is real downright bad. Most official big tourneys also enforce the use of English version BW if im not mistaken. This. This is everything you need to know the subject. TL;DR: 1. No one will know if you remap shortcut keys. 2. But, it IS "illegal." 3. So are macros, and macros CAN be detected if someone is putting in the effort, and I'm guessing it can get you banned from ICCup but not Fish or Battle.net servers. | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19213 Posts
 Happy BW-ing! | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
On January 13 2016 13:35 BisuDagger wrote: I don't have the right answer but I did fix your title! Happy BW-ing!Thanks | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On January 13 2016 13:08 cpt.ahab wrote: None of that helps, since I didn't ask about macros or remapped keys, I asked about hardware, specifically keyboards with different key layouts. Thanks for some type of answer though. We all know macro etc etc is illegal. My apologies. The way I see it, a different keyboard is no different from alternate hotkey setup. There have undoubtedly been players who played BW with Dvorak, however, and I have never heard of any penalties for it. What I'm trying to say is, if it doesn't give you a significant advantage over regular users, I don't think it's amoral. As this has never to my knowledge come up in true competitive play, I don't think that you would get banned from a server for it, but it is unlikely that they would be able to tell anyway, similar to remapping. | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
On January 13 2016 14:28 Jealous wrote: The way I see it, a different keyboard is no different from alternate hotkey setup. I suppose we would need somebody that was once in the BW Korean professional world to really answer the question, but I believe what you said here makes the most sense. QWERTY keyboard, standard layout. I don't tThink that you would get banned from a server for it, but it is unlikely that they would be able to tell anyway, similar to remapping. I'm not worried of getting banned, I just want to have the playing field level, and wanted to see what the rules (if any) regarding keyboard hardware were. Sure, this minor of a thing won't help me vs. someone that's better than me anyway, but I'd still like to play by the rules if there are any on this subject. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On January 13 2016 15:08 cpt.ahab wrote: I suppose we would need somebody that was once in the BW Korean professional world to really answer the question, but I believe what you said here makes the most sense. QWERTY keyboard, standard layout. I'm not worried of getting banned, I just want to have the playing field level, and wanted to see what the rules (if any) regarding keyboard hardware were. Sure, this minor of a thing won't help me vs. someone that's better than me anyway, but I'd still like to play by the rules if there are any on this subject. That's not necessarily true, because I doubt that it ever came up in the "BW Korean professional world" However, KeSPA, which is the governing body of the aforementioned world, at one point instituted a stringent ban on how you can use your keyboard to surrender or ask for a pause in the game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/92917-news-kespa-changes-ppp-rule I imagine that with an organization as controlling as KeSPA, there were no alternate keyboard layouts allowed. I am willing to bet that none have ever been used, in any case. It may not have ever been explicitly stated, but my Korean google-fu is lacking and if it were, it may have never been publicized. Regardless, if I were you and I was worried about fairness and equality and all that, I would just play with a standard keyboard and leave no room for confusion. If that is not a welcome option, then trust your morals. I had a similar discussion with some guy in another thread who said that he used alternate hotkeys in 1v1 on ladder that made laying mines/sieging tanks into one letter that was conveniently placed. I told him that this was an unfair advantage over other people. He more or less said he didn't care. So, in the end, it's how you feel about the situation that matters. Not even KeSPA will come knocking on your door for using alternate hotkeys. | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On January 13 2016 16:25 cpt.ahab wrote: Yes, I saw those strict KeSPA rules while researching this... kinda nuts. I figured they would have to have a rule on hardware as well somewhere too. There aren't too many hardware variations for keyboards besides the caps lock > control, Esc switched with some keys (I can't recall) and DVORAK / COLMAK setups. It's not like one could buy a keyboard with a regular layout and only the "Q" changed to "I" or "O". That would really seem like hardware cheating then. Anyway, I'm just rambling and trying to con my way out of having to use the regular control key. I've used a keyboard since 2007 or 2008 with the control key being where caps lock is and it's going to takes god knows how long to get used to using regular control. I always thought it had to have came up in pro BW back in the day but now that I think on it, there wasn't a keyboard back then that had the control where caps lock is AND had the f1-f10 keys as well (not one that worked on PC at least). So now that there are keyboards that have such a setup the question almost has relevance... Well, even back during KeSPA BW era (which wasn't too long ago, last Proleague season was a hybrid SC2/BW league in 2011 if I recall correctly), there were still gaming keyboards available. However, as you can note and read on forums, none of the pros used anything but a cheap clickety-clackety keyboard, forget the exact model but a quick search on TL or Google should bring it up. If there wasn't anything explicitly stated about keyboard usage, it's only because it didn't have to be. If there was, then it was clearly enforced to silent perfection. There is no reason to not use the keyboard you are used to besides any personal qualms you may have with it. If you never made this thread, no one would have ever known, nor would you have become #1 BW player because of it. Like I said, if something inside you is eating at you for using these keyboards, then switch and be at peace. If not, then fuck it. If it makes you feel any better, after 17 years of playing on and off, and more than half that much time playing 1v1 for ladder points online, I finally realized that there is a second "ctrl" key on the keyboard. More importantly, it is very pressing that I learn this key's position, because as a Protoss player I used 0 and 9 for 0p9p and therefore ctrl+0, ctrl+9. I also use 876 for early gateways, and 9 for scout before second Nexus. However, I have always used the ctrl that is on the left side of the keyboard, and my hands are not big enough to do ctrl+098 with one hand. I've been actually lifting my hand off the mouse and using it to press the number while holding Lctrl. Now that I know Rctrl exists, I have been training myself to use it for the past few days. It's a practice not dissimilar from learning how to use 1-0, f2-f4, so on and so forth. It's not too big a mountain to climb, considering the Everests you've conquered prior as a BW player ^^ | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On January 13 2016 18:24 endy wrote: With a French keyboard it's much easier to 1a2a3a4a since A and Q are switched. Depends on the size of your hands imo. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
Newsflash: No keyboard “knows” what meaning a key has. It just sends a number to the operating system (this number is called Scancode) There is no notion of where each key belongs, it’s completly up to the manufacturer. It’s the job of the OS to translate this scancode to an actual character or a meta key like ctrl or shift. It does this by using specific input layouts like qwerty, dvorak, azerty, … And the best thing is: you too can create your own input layout! Without tampering with BW files you can remap keys to fit your personal style (if I haven’t made myself clear enough: there is no need for a 3rd party program. How you do that is up to your operating system). There is one downside though: you have to chat with the keys swapped  My point is: Swapping just one key cannot be more illegal than using a different input layout. (Again: I’m not talking about the remapping of hotkeys via MPQ changes) To answer the OP: yes your weird keyboard is fine for regular play (i.e. iccup/fish). My guess is that there were no special rules for Kespa players regarding the keyboard, but if a player would have brought a strange keyboard they might have added a rule to only allow so called “standard” keyboards. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On January 13 2016 19:35 Biolunar wrote: Kind of offtopic, but some people don’t know what they are talking about: Newsflash: No keyboard “knows” what meaning a key has. It just sends a number to the operating system (this number is called Scancode) There is no notion of where each key belongs, it’s completly up to the manufacturer. It’s the job of the OS to translate this scancode to an actual character or a meta key like ctrl or shift. It does this by using specific input layouts like qwerty, dvorak, azerty, … And the best thing is: you too can create your own input layout! Without tampering with BW files you can remap keys to fit your personal style (if I haven’t made myself clear enough: there is no need for a 3rd party program. How you do that is up to your operating system). There is one downside though: you have to chat with the keys swapped My point is: Swapping just one key cannot be more illegal than using a different input layout. (Again: I’m not talking about the remapping of hotkeys via MPQ changes) To answer the OP: yes your weird keyboard is fine for regular play (i.e. iccup/fish). My guess is that there were no special rules for Kespa players regarding the keyboard, but if a player would have brought a strange keyboard they might have added a rule to only allow so called “standard” keyboards. except then you would be editing the keyboard input, which would require setup on every pc that you used.. unless you had a keyboard that had software on it, but i'm pretty sure those are banned because of potential macros | ||
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
On January 13 2016 12:24 Probemicro wrote: yeah remapped keys cannot really be detected, but they are still ruled as illegal anyway (in ladder and almost all actual tourneys). At the amateur level I don't think anyone cares much about a couple of swapped hotkeys unless you out yourself. and pros will still beat you anyway. But macro/scripts is real downright bad. Most official big tourneys also enforce the use of English version BW if im not mistaken. Rolf, Id be owned then. I played all my life on the Spanish version :D. | ||
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Piste
6167 Posts
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
On January 13 2016 20:04 Endymion wrote: except then you would be editing the keyboard input, which would require setup on every pc that you used.. unless you had a keyboard that had software on it, but i'm pretty sure those are banned because of potential macros Yes it would need setup for every PC because you are doing something that BW is not made for. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 13 2016 11:10 cpt.ahab wrote: I suppose this is close to pointless now but I'm wondering if the keyboard I use would be allowed in professional play and or proper etiquette on iCCup/Fish. All the keys on it are the same as a regular keyboard but the caps lock is a control key (via hardware). All the posts I found so far deal with software when it comes to remapping (and that being illegal/frowned upon). It seems to me, there are some varying answers posted on your Question. So allow me to give you an "official" reply. Yes, you may play with that keyboard according to the current ICCup ladder rules. Let me quote the relevant paragraph: 4. Hacks and Third Party Tools 4.1 It's forbidden to use any software that gives any advantage over other players, all hacks included 4.2 Third party tools such as DoxStar, Obs Mode or APM Live are allowed at own risk. Administration recommend not to use them. Reports to be refunded for issues derivative by using third party tools like mca64Launcher will be denied from the Laddder Rules ICCup does not to assess your keyboard as such an illegitimate advantage. Reasoning: with the existence of different regional BW versions (english, polish, spanish, german etc) there's already plenty of ways of having an alternate keyboard setup to the standard english version. Under this logic, your keyboard is fine. Thanks for asking and props to your displayed intention of playing the fair game! | ||
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TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx Dunno to which extent it can be allowed/detected, since it's basically the same as setting your keyboard layout to qwertz/azerty/whatever other language specific layouts exist in the windows control panel, except you can create your own layout from scratch. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
I don't think gamer keyboards were popular if they were a thing at all in those days. The foreign scene is not competitive enough these days for there to be a large consensus that it's bullshit and unfair. The kind of people who would care are people who practice all the time and don't want you to have an edge because of something outside the game (or people who enjoy watching those players), and there's very few of those now. So do what you want, but it's obviously inherently unfair. It's certainly not normal for people to own and use gamer keyboards or alternate hotkeys in BW, just a few people do it quietly because they want to hotkey their nexus on 3 and think the p key is too awkward to hit (0p9p8p so hard). | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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Nabe
51 Posts
Back on topic, I guess it's possible that KeSPA would give you a hard time about it but they are anal about everything. Realistically it's not a big advantage if any at all, because in exchange you are giving up your ability to palm the control key (even if very few players utilize it.) Also I'm going to go ahead and say it's unlikely you'll be playing in any major offline tournaments or have anything to do with KeSPA so... It's up to however you feel about it. Also for reference the standard keyboard for pros for many years was the Qsenn DT-35. Technically not a standard Korean ANSI layout. I mean how technical should you be what actually gives an advantage? Playing on a Razer or something? It's non standard and makes hitting control easier. Taking certain caps off? Custom caps? Mechanical vs rubber dome? PS/2 vs USB? Repeat rates? You can argue that all of this and more gives an advantage yet KeSPA has no problems with it. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On January 14 2016 12:10 Nabe wrote: I think some of you are confused. The caps control switch isn't a gamer layout, it's mostly seen on higher end keyboards that are largely intended for coding. something like this realforce 87U tenkeyless I highly doubt kespa or wcg or anyone would disallow such keyboards otherwise they would disallow things like dvorak etc which would be discriminating. in athletics/sports its similar, you can use pretty much use any shoes/boots as allowed by sponsors. But doping (the equivalent of using macros/whatever software hacks in esports) is obviously banned and non-justifiable | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
On January 14 2016 12:21 Probemicro wrote: something like this realforce 87U tenkeyless I highly doubt kespa or wcg or anyone would disallow such keyboards otherwise they would disallow things like dvorak etc which would be discriminating. Yes they probably would allow that or the choc mini but may have had a rule stating you can't set the control key to the caps lock via the dipswitch or for choc mini via a key combination. | ||
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
On January 14 2016 11:00 cpt.ahab wrote: Again, this thread is not about alternate hot keys or remapping keys (there are many posts on here about that). It's about keyboards with physical layouts that are different. The control key also isn't really a hot key. Are we equating a keyboard that has the control key in the caps lock place as the same thing as changing hotkeys? Sounds like a fair argument. Actually it is you who does not understand. If your OS is treating Ctrl as CapsLock and vice versa, how do you know wich key is which? The imprint on the keyboard? There are keyboards withouth any imprints. On those, how do you know which key is which? You don’t. Only the OS knows. You can tell your OS to treat Ctrl as ‘f’ and ‘f’ as Ctrl. Now you can type f by pressing Ctrl and hotkey your units by pressing f+1. It’s the bloody same as if the physical keys are swapped. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On January 14 2016 20:02 Biolunar wrote: Actually it is you who does not understand. If your OS is treating Ctrl as CapsLock and vice versa, how do you know wich key is which? The imprint on the keyboard? There are keyboards withouth any imprints. On those, how do you know which key is which? You don’t. Only the OS knows. You can tell your OS to treat Ctrl as ‘f’ and ‘f’ as Ctrl. Now you can type f by pressing Ctrl and hotkey your units by pressing f+1. It’s the bloody same as if the physical keys are swapped. I assumed he was talking about keyboards where the physical layout is different, like those ergonomic wave keyboards but somehow for games (I vaguely recall these specialized keyboards with an extra section just for games). But he also thinks I don't know what he's saying, I guess, so maybe he should just post a picture or link to the keyboards he wants to use and make everyone's lives simpler. But really, I never saw a professional BW match where the player used a keyboard that looked like anything other than the stock standard. Like no pro gamers were using those special gamer foot buttons to help them play with their hands and their feet, even though setting foot pedals to f2-f4 would be super useful and I'm sure somebody thought about it. You could get real creative and make people buy stuff to be on an even level, or you could just use stock standard stuff and focus on the beauty of the game itself, without going crazy over peripherals and consumerism. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On January 13 2016 16:46 Jealous wrote: Well, even back during KeSPA BW era (which wasn't too long ago, last Proleague season was a hybrid SC2/BW league in 2011 if I recall correctly) yes, and it ended in the autumn of 2012, as did the last OSL | ||
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Nabe
51 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://hbfs.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/happy-hacking-keyboard.jpg) Would you consider it advantageous? It's still considered US ANSI. Straight out of the box it works as the top of the keys are labeled no modifications to the keyboard or OS required. Also just to clear things up OP's keyboard looks no different to any other, no keys are missing, no weird shape, or non standard size anything. This is becoming a more and more popular feature over the last ~two years. I certainly never heard of it, but again, was there any controversy when the first mechs, or optical mice started showing up? There's no question they were significantly better than the average gear for the time. I just kind of feel if anyone can buy one (this is offered on at least 10 keyboards from well known companies) and it's not MASSIVELY advantageous KeSPA wouldn't have much to say. | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
On January 14 2016 20:02 Biolunar wrote: Actually it is you who does not understand. If your OS is treating Ctrl as CapsLock and vice versa, how do you know wich key is which? The imprint on the keyboard? There are keyboards withouth any imprints. On those, how do you know which key is which? You don’t. Only the OS knows. You can tell your OS to treat Ctrl as ‘f’ and ‘f’ as Ctrl. Now you can type f by pressing Ctrl and hotkey your units by pressing f+1. It’s the bloody same as if the physical keys are swapped. I'll make this short and easy. One is via software (what you're describing) and the other via hardware. It sounds like you could possibly be stating the argument I wrote earlier, that having a keyboard with a key that is in another place than a standard US key layout (the physical keys come stock, in different places) should be treated the same as swapping keys via software (OS). | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
But he also thinks I don't know what he's saying, I guess, so maybe he should just post a picture or link to the keyboards he wants to use and make everyone's lives simpler. Probemicro has posted a link already to a type of keyboard I'm talking about. | ||
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
On January 15 2016 00:36 cpt.ahab wrote: I'll make this short and easy. One is via software (what you're describing) and the other via hardware. It sounds like you could possibly be stating the argument I wrote earlier, that having a keyboard with a key that is in another place than a standard US key layout (the physical keys come stock, in different places) should be treated the same as swapping keys via software (OS). Okay, I’ll try this one more time: It does not matter where the hardware key is located. How do you know you actually pressed Ctrl when you pressed that key in the picture? Answer me that. Bonus question: What does this idea of “Ctrl” even mean? | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 15 2016 04:33 cpt.ahab wrote: Please lock this thread. The answer is, that there is no answer, do what you feel is fair. well different users will have different opnions on ettiquette in the game. That's why i replied quaoting the ICCup rule set. I'd go by that if i were you. :> | ||
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cpt.ahab
United States17 Posts
On January 15 2016 08:22 Cele wrote: well different users will have different opnions on ettiquette in the game. That's why i replied quaoting the ICCup rule set. I'd go by that if i were you. :> Yes, yours was the best post on the subject. Seems like it's no big deal and it sure as hell doesn't make me a better player, I can't stay D+ even. It just allows me to be able to play at all I'd say | ||
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Richasliodo
18 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On January 15 2016 00:30 Nabe wrote: Let's look at the extreme of this layout then. Look at the HHKB2 and pretend it has dedicated function keys for the sake of argument. It's the keyboard OP's is based on. + Show Spoiler + Bruh you don't have F keys on your keyboard? | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
logistically, it would not make sense to have admins going out and preventing casuals from playing if their ctrl key was easier to press, and that is one of the most important keys you'll ever use in this game. it doens't really matter what their rules state now, or any rules they'll make up out of nowhere, professionally this issue hasn't come into light, nor should it. this is some samurai spirit shit. koreans trained and lived by stock standard, dt samsung keyboards, when mechanical or alternative layout keyboards were not used commonly let alone by other professionals. just play how you would prefer, without the use of software that's needed to run with the game or ran with a new computer every time you decide to 'compete' with it. the only thing it will ever seem, is interesting and otherwise literally nobody will care. i am 100% that someone could play sc:bw with an xbox controller as has been done in sc2, and no admin will step up to your door frame and ask you to ever stop. and yes, i don't see swapping keys or keymappings around as an advantage. it is such an archaic thing to make an argument to disallow somebody from it. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Did KeSpa enforce the English version of Brood war and a QWERTY keyboard? Or were others allowed? What about in contemporary tournaments such as ASL? | ||
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wishbonesaka
Canada117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tnqrgWL.png) | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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