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On September 29 2018 02:25 Tappo wrote:
What exactly is the problem with Azerite gear? People seem to progress as usual. Looks exactly like it does in every other expansion. Or are they pissed that they havent gotten their BIS yet? Like that was the case with every Set item so far. People always have been bitching about that. The great part: You dont even need the highest azerite gear to progress.
Or is it because they dont overpower the abilities like crazy?
The funniest part: You have to be lucky to get your items! Especially after the "Every final Mythic boss drops an extra item" week
I mean, you seem pretty adamant in defending blizzard and their system. I have ~15-20 azerite armor at 340, some have my best traits, some dont. I have another 10-15 in my bank because those traits could change at ANY time based on blizz tuning. Its a bit disheartening to know that something decent today could be worthless tomorrow or vice versa.
And, based on how the M+ cache works, I could only get 385 chests for the entire expansion, where as someone else might get a varied amount of loot and have chest/shoulders/head at 385. I dont need to be lucky to have this gear already to understand the system isn't doing anyone any favors. How is it fun to possibly got 1/4 the expansion without higher than 340 azerite gear? Thats a bad system in any way you shape it.
I don't get why you are defending this. "People progress without it", sure they do, but why does that have to be the answer to the system not being better? People killed mythic ghuun without full 385 gear, does that means you shouldn't get any gear until you kill it now? No, that would be ridiculous to say.
I don't have to be cutting edge to see the flaws in this system. There was a lot of feedback about this and Blizz again didn't use any of it to improve their system. Also, the every final mythic boss only drops 340, and were talking about long term goals. Right now, I could get maybe 1 385 chest every 4 weeks with BLP, but I could keep getting chest pieces and never shoulders/head, leaving me with 340 helm/shoulders.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 29 2018 02:25 Tappo wrote:
What exactly is the problem with Azerite gear? People seem to progress as usual. Looks exactly like it does in every other expansion. Or are they pissed that they havent gotten their BIS yet? Like that was the case with every Set item so far. People always have been bitching about that. The great part: You dont even need the highest azerite gear to progress.
Or is it because they dont overpower the abilities like crazy?
The funniest part: You have to be lucky to get your items! Especially after the "Every final Mythic boss drops an extra item" week
This is just a thinly veiled attempt at bashing people for your own amusement, you're not trying to engage in discussion
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On September 29 2018 03:47 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 02:25 Tappo wrote:
What exactly is the problem with Azerite gear? People seem to progress as usual. Looks exactly like it does in every other expansion. Or are they pissed that they havent gotten their BIS yet? Like that was the case with every Set item so far. People always have been bitching about that. The great part: You dont even need the highest azerite gear to progress.
Or is it because they dont overpower the abilities like crazy?
The funniest part: You have to be lucky to get your items! Especially after the "Every final Mythic boss drops an extra item" week This is just a thinly veiled attempt at bashing people for your own amusement, you're not trying to engage in discussion
Said by the guy who tried to discredit me with "Strawman" and wasnt even capable of arguing against what i said. Yeah, why dont i join the non-discussion in which i have TO HATE EVERYTHING BECAUSE BFA SO UNPLAYABLE AZERITE OMG. Meanwhile people clear mythic uldir and dungeons. How? I wish i could see their inventory. They must have piled up like every item in the game
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Dude, you're literally the only one picking fights with others in this thread, and even if Cyro's use of the term "strawman" is questionable, it accurately addresses the extent to which you've continuously built up imaginary figures to fight against, all while other posters justify their complaints with material references.
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i dont like bfa for several reasons.
raid sucks as far as encounters go - nothing is interesting.
m+ sucks as far as bugs go - doing 16 waycrest just so u can see mobs teleporting throu the ground - what a great day.
warfronts are a shitfest and so are island expeditions.
gear farming outside of azerite gear is way too easy - gear farming for azerite gear is not existent.
tuning passes all over the place - tuning still not correct - game feels like its still in beta - blizzard admitted they released the addon too soon.
only reason i am still clinging in is because of my buddies but i am not happy bout it one tiny bit.
(this all is my opinion)
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I started wow with bfa. I don't like how the azerite system is because it's beyond my control. All other pieces, if you're unlucky with your weekly cache, can be grinded.
However, if I don't get 385 azerite there's nothing I can do. I pugged heroic raid and suffered for hours and got my 2 370s. They nerfed laser matrix. They nerfed by my best trait. Now my best trait is on the 3 other pieces from heroic raid. I did those bosses every week since release and still didn't get those pieces. I only get 2 rerolls every week. So yeah, it's frustrating I'm gated behind a mechanism that's almost all luck.
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On September 29 2018 06:35 Wala.Revolution wrote:
I started wow with bfa. I don't like how the azerite system is because it's beyond my control. All other pieces, if you're unlucky with your weekly cache, can be grinded.
However, if I don't get 385 azerite there's nothing I can do. I pugged heroic raid and suffered for hours and got my 2 370s. They nerfed laser matrix. They nerfed by my best trait. Now my best trait is on the 3 other pieces from heroic raid. I did those bosses every week since release and still didn't get those pieces. I only get 2 rerolls every week. So yeah, it's frustrating I'm gated behind a mechanism that's almost all luck.
This is exactly what im talking about: How much do you lack behind in damage just because you dont have BIS 385? What class are you playing? Do you think because they nerfed something (doesnt make it useless) that its useless? I just checked Warcraftlogs across all classes and bosses > Every Azerite trait is present. Some are favored, but not by alot (Laser Matrix included):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#boss=2134
You find 340-385 azerite across all those mythic raider. Tell me, how are you gated out of content (Cool Kid BIS Azerite Club?). I would love to know
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My dislike is with that I can't do that "full potential damage" because it's gated. I can't say for others, but I feel frustrated that some people are lucky, and some are not, and there's nothing you can do about it.
I know laser matrix isn't useless. I know streaking stars (a balanced druid trait) isn't useless, and that now it's much more similar to other traits. Streaking stars before was a must for my class. So much so that 340 with it used to outperform 370 and possibly even 385 without.
Knowing that, when I finally got the 370 ghuun azerite piece with streaking stars on it, I had a sense of accomplishment that I grinded and I received something. Plenty others didn't have such luck, with our without rerolls. They also, like I, didn't get 385s with desired trait and there's nothing we can do.
+ Show Spoiler [my thought on endgame content] +I didn't play wow for that long and I only played one other mmo in my life. I might be wrong but hardest part of doing mythic raiding (or any highest endgame content) is finding a group of people who have the same level of time commitment. If I were looking for a guild for mythic raiding, and another boomkin and I applied to same guild with all other things equal except ilvl and corresponding parses as a result of that ilvl/trait difference, wouldn't the one with higher parse have a bigger chance?
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Tappo, you might find people more receptive to your arguments if you didn't phrase them like accusations.
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On September 29 2018 08:35 Wala.Revolution wrote:+ Show Spoiler [my thought on endgame content] +I didn't play wow for that long and I only played one other mmo in my life. I might be wrong but hardest part of doing mythic raiding (or any highest endgame content) is finding a group of people who have the same level of time commitment. If I were looking for a guild for mythic raiding, and another boomkin and I applied to same guild with all other things equal except ilvl and corresponding parses as a result of that ilvl/trait difference, wouldn't the one with higher parse have a bigger chance?
Parses matter but they matter in the context of how well you are doing relative to what you have and alot of other factors, if guilds are just taking the "highest parse" you dont want to be in that guild.
All other things being equal is a very restrictive condition to place here, your hypothetical might be valid, but its still just a hypothetical because all things wont be equal, and they shouldnt be, and thats the point.
+ Show Spoiler + The first 3 tiers of legion I raided with a 3 day guild that regularly finishes in the top 150-200 and is mostly made of people similar to me who played in top 30-40 guilds back in the vanilla - cata days and they took me primarly on my experience despite being 6 years out of the game, with a fresh US account that had nothing on it. I did prove to them that the EU account was mine with all the achievements etc but thats about it, and all of this barely into an expac that was in many ways a completely different game to the one I had left. There were alot of better geared people then me available because I started a month late, but my parses (and other discerning factors like mechanics) along with the conversations I had with them put me over the hill.
The inability to do "full damage" along wiith some people getting lucky and others not has literally existed since the beginning of time, and frankly the amount of effort it takes is a joke compared to what it was.
Things wont always be equal and some people will have better items then you and some wont. Loot is important but Ive never felt a sense of accomplishment getting loot. Its always been about what the loot allows me to achieve and gives me the best chance to achieve it. Guilds and players always talk about loot being a means to progression and not an end. Yet 90 percent of the complaints are about not getting loot because it doesnt allow me to be the best i can be. I dont know.. it just feels weird.
Points like having to hold onto 40x pieces because of the looming tuning passes does make sense. I am sitting in the same boat and its kinda anoying.
But tbh I did that last expac too so it doesnt really feel like a big deal either.
Loot is also always going to be gated in some way or the other. The major whinging always tends to be over how and when its gated.
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Accomplishment was the wrong word. Relief is the right one because I wouldn't need to suffer ghuun pugs anymore.
I don't know and I don't care what the previous system to azerite was. I just wish they had a system (say, X tokens every cache and eventually you can turn it in for a piece you want) so it's not 100% rng. It won't be as bad if they balance traits well, so hopefully that happens.
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Another weird quirk of this azerite system: only 5 of the bosses in uldir drop a piece.
For example for Plate users you have:
- Azerite helmet from Mother and Ghuun
- Azerite chest from Vectis and Zul
- Azerite shoulders only from Mythrax
For the other armor classes it's similar.
Why not have a 6th boss drop another azerite piece so you have 2 chances at each piece lol. I better get some 385 shoulders from the weekly chest because we ain't killing mythic mythrax anytime soon :D
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I don't know and I don't care what the previous system to azerite was. I just wish they had a system (say, X tokens every cache and eventually you can turn it in for a piece you want) so it's not 100% rng. It won't be as bad if they balance traits well, so hopefully that happens.
Worse than azerite (some people doing 300k DPS on an unfun spec and others 350 with fun spec due to unfarmable RNG) but somewhat mitigated by the first raid and m+ being tuned really easy. TOV combined difficult content with pre-rework systems + imbalance and was a trainwreck.
The later raids were a lot better after more time and fixes for the artifact/legendary systems but the same sorts of changes need to be made to Azerite so that post-Uldir works well
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Among other things I dislike abut the Azerite system that it pushes a mythic raider to do normal Uldir (besides hc as well) since the Azerite items from there would still be a massive upgrade for me.
It is no coincidence that the 3 azerite items are among the 4 lowest items I wear. The 4th is a trinket which are also really bad in the healer department.
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On September 29 2018 22:45 Redox wrote:
Among other things I dislike abut the Azerite system that it pushes a mythic raider to do normal Uldir (besides hc as well) since the Azerite items from there would still be a massive upgrade for me.
It is no coincidence that the 3 azerite items are among the 4 lowest items I wear. The 4th is a trinket which are also really bad in the healer department.
You didnt do normal and heroic in previous tiers if you didnt get tier peices from mythic ?
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On September 29 2018 22:52 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 22:45 Redox wrote:
Among other things I dislike abut the Azerite system that it pushes a mythic raider to do normal Uldir (besides hc as well) since the Azerite items from there would still be a massive upgrade for me.
It is no coincidence that the 3 azerite items are among the 4 lowest items I wear. The 4th is a trinket which are also really bad in the healer department. You didnt do normal and heroic in previous tiers if you didnt get tier peices from mythic ?
One issue with azerite is that the lower onces are occasionally better. I could at least use a 370 dungeon "non set" item over a 340 "non set" item if it was not for the traits.
But it is true I had to do normal on occasion as well, though it was not quite as bad. I guess the problem is strongly exacerbated by the personal loot, in the past items in a raid would be shuffled so that people got their boni.
I have done normal and hc every week and did not get a single azerite item yet, though I was traded a normal one.
Actually this discussion just made me realize I need to do lfr as well, fml.
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On September 29 2018 23:19 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 22:52 Rebs wrote:On September 29 2018 22:45 Redox wrote:
Among other things I dislike abut the Azerite system that it pushes a mythic raider to do normal Uldir (besides hc as well) since the Azerite items from there would still be a massive upgrade for me.
It is no coincidence that the 3 azerite items are among the 4 lowest items I wear. The 4th is a trinket which are also really bad in the healer department. You didnt do normal and heroic in previous tiers if you didnt get tier peices from mythic ? One issue with azerite is that the lower onces are occasionally better. I could at least use a 370 dungeon "non set" item over a 340 "non set" item if it was not for the traits. But it is true I had to do normal on occasion as well, though it was not quite as bad. I guess the problem is strongly exacerbated by the personal loot, in the past items in a raid would be shuffled so that people got their boni. I have done normal and hc every week and did not get a single azerite item yet, though I was traded a normal one. Actually this discussion just made me realize I need to do lfr as well, fml.
Yes having to farm and refarm traits is certainly an issue, but thats where traits need to be more balanced rather than availbility or ilvl being an issue. I havent really had a problem getting azerite pieces and Ive barely done any hcs or normal. Ive got maybe 1 kill and a few 2s on each boss on both Heroic. I have only bothered with normal once. It sounds your on a really wierd end of the bad luck spectrum.
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On September 29 2018 14:17 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 08:35 Wala.Revolution wrote:+ Show Spoiler [my thought on endgame content] +I didn't play wow for that long and I only played one other mmo in my life. I might be wrong but hardest part of doing mythic raiding (or any highest endgame content) is finding a group of people who have the same level of time commitment. If I were looking for a guild for mythic raiding, and another boomkin and I applied to same guild with all other things equal except ilvl and corresponding parses as a result of that ilvl/trait difference, wouldn't the one with higher parse have a bigger chance? Parses matter but they matter in the context of how well you are doing relative to what you have and alot of other factors, if guilds are just taking the "highest parse" you dont want to be in that guild. All other things being equal is a very restrictive condition to place here, your hypothetical might be valid, but its still just a hypothetical because all things wont be equal, and they shouldnt be, and thats the point. + Show Spoiler + The first 3 tiers of legion I raided with a 3 day guild that regularly finishes in the top 150-200 and is mostly made of people similar to me who played in top 30-40 guilds back in the vanilla - cata days and they took me primarly on my experience despite being 6 years out of the game, with a fresh US account that had nothing on it. I did prove to them that the EU account was mine with all the achievements etc but thats about it, and all of this barely into an expac that was in many ways a completely different game to the one I had left. There were alot of better geared people then me available because I started a month late, but my parses (and other discerning factors like mechanics) along with the conversations I had with them put me over the hill. The inability to do "full damage" along wiith some people getting lucky and others not has literally existed since the beginning of time, and frankly the amount of effort it takes is a joke compared to what it was. Things wont always be equal and some people will have better items then you and some wont. Loot is important but Ive never felt a sense of accomplishment getting loot. Its always been about what the loot allows me to achieve and gives me the best chance to achieve it. Guilds and players always talk about loot being a means to progression and not an end. Yet 90 percent of the complaints are about not getting loot because it doesnt allow me to be the best i can be. I dont know.. it just feels weird. Points like having to hold onto 40x pieces because of the looming tuning passes does make sense. I am sitting in the same boat and its kinda anoying. But tbh I did that last expac too so it doesnt really feel like a big deal either. Loot is also always going to be gated in some way or the other. The major whinging always tends to be over how and when its gated.
You dont need 40 pieces. People already clear ALL CONTENT with their current traits. If one trait feels incredible overtuned, which only seems to be the case for moonkin, you should have an backup. There is no need to be an hoarder. Blizzard is not going to completely gut a certain trait out of nothing. Full damage? That also means you have to play perfectly. How many people play perfectly?
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On September 30 2018 00:18 Tappo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 14:17 Rebs wrote:On September 29 2018 08:35 Wala.Revolution wrote:+ Show Spoiler [my thought on endgame content] +I didn't play wow for that long and I only played one other mmo in my life. I might be wrong but hardest part of doing mythic raiding (or any highest endgame content) is finding a group of people who have the same level of time commitment. If I were looking for a guild for mythic raiding, and another boomkin and I applied to same guild with all other things equal except ilvl and corresponding parses as a result of that ilvl/trait difference, wouldn't the one with higher parse have a bigger chance? Parses matter but they matter in the context of how well you are doing relative to what you have and alot of other factors, if guilds are just taking the "highest parse" you dont want to be in that guild. All other things being equal is a very restrictive condition to place here, your hypothetical might be valid, but its still just a hypothetical because all things wont be equal, and they shouldnt be, and thats the point. + Show Spoiler + The first 3 tiers of legion I raided with a 3 day guild that regularly finishes in the top 150-200 and is mostly made of people similar to me who played in top 30-40 guilds back in the vanilla - cata days and they took me primarly on my experience despite being 6 years out of the game, with a fresh US account that had nothing on it. I did prove to them that the EU account was mine with all the achievements etc but thats about it, and all of this barely into an expac that was in many ways a completely different game to the one I had left. There were alot of better geared people then me available because I started a month late, but my parses (and other discerning factors like mechanics) along with the conversations I had with them put me over the hill. The inability to do "full damage" along wiith some people getting lucky and others not has literally existed since the beginning of time, and frankly the amount of effort it takes is a joke compared to what it was. Things wont always be equal and some people will have better items then you and some wont. Loot is important but Ive never felt a sense of accomplishment getting loot. Its always been about what the loot allows me to achieve and gives me the best chance to achieve it. Guilds and players always talk about loot being a means to progression and not an end. Yet 90 percent of the complaints are about not getting loot because it doesnt allow me to be the best i can be. I dont know.. it just feels weird. Points like having to hold onto 40x pieces because of the looming tuning passes does make sense. I am sitting in the same boat and its kinda anoying. But tbh I did that last expac too so it doesnt really feel like a big deal either. Loot is also always going to be gated in some way or the other. The major whinging always tends to be over how and when its gated. You dont need 40 pieces. People already clear ALL CONTENT with their current traits. If one trait feels incredible overtuned, which only seems to be the case for moonkin, you should have an backup. There is no need to be an hoarder. Blizzard is not going to completely gut a certain trait out of nothing
The 40 peices thing was obviously hyperbole.
This was the case for my monk aswell until they gutted swift RH and I would have been in the dumps if I hadnt held onto the 4x chest pieces that I had to choose from when they started tuning. How do I know which of those 4 chest pieces is going to be the best after the round of tuning ? Explain that to me? Why should i just arbitrarily pick 1 backup ? What if I get rid of the wrong one ?
And to take that example further, they didnt just nerf Swift RH, they absolutely murdered it. Its gone from douuble the second best trait by far the best trait to the 3rd worst. Everyone knew it would get nerfed but you had no idea what was going to get adjusted and how. So really stop. your argument is terrible.
I can literally off the top of my head thing about 20 items/pieces/trinkets that I had to hold onto last expansion in just the first 3 tiers. And yes Blizzard has a history of absolutely gutting things and would have suffered greatly if I didnt because I had no way of knowing how the tuning passes would affect my class.
The people that are clearing all content are doing so with time and investment that not all people have. SO please shutup about that. Comparing the time and investment from mythic raiders who have time and the ability to refarm things as needed to optimize their performance to regular people is wrong.
So what if I can clear all content ? What does that have to do with my inability to optimize my character on a personal level ?
As for full damage, I dont know who you are talking to about that because I was disagreeing with that sentiment and someones concern on that. What I will say though is what if I dont play perfectly? Being gated from my ability to do so (if that is indeed the case). The what aboutism is real.
No its not the end of the world. But its still something you have to do and its not a good feeling not matter how much you try to be an asshole about it saying it doesnt matter.
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Oh god Zul trash in lfr. And I cant even afk until its over since someone has to heal those tanks that keep cycling through the raid.
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EPT
