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BfA Community Links: GP : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/KKMpKPSlgd?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/v9x5bAF3jD?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/ALwgJnC5Wo?region=EU&faction=Alliance TLNAH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/vPrmjJxiVnJ?region=US&faction=Horde TLNAA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/YeZj7P0SXLn?region=US&faction=Alliance Bnet: Bnet - https://blizzard.com/invite/amvLM0EubJv On November 03 2016 06:57 GTR wrote: I've created a Google Form/Spreadsheet for people to help add eachother. Hopefully this will makes things easier for us to find people for Mythic+ runs and what not as opposed to sifting through 150+ pages of discussion. Form Spreadsheet If a moderator could add this as a moderator note at the top it'd be appreciated. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Anyone trying to pawn off the complaints about the writing as whining or anything else needs to check their inner fanboy at the door. If you can't see the 1000 different reasons that the writing from this event is terrible, then I question your ability to critically analyze writing. The event's writing is pretty much as objectively bad as WoL's writing. People basically wrote books and made movies with in depth critical analysis of how awful WoL was. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On August 04 2018 18:19 iamthedave wrote: I don't think so. I've suspected for a while that sooner or later Sylvanas is going to go full Lich King and try to take over the Frozen Throne. She's been blatantly villainous and/or evil for a good while now, just cunning enough to keep it quiet. No, people call Blizzard bad writers because they're bad writers. They have a track record of ignoring prior characterisation in order to tell the story they want to. Even if we accept everything with Garrosh is intended, the ending cinematic of Warlords was complete nonsense. They seriously wrote a scene where Grom acted like a big hero because TEH DEMONZ ARE DED, despite him launching a near-genocidal war against the draenai that had nothing to do with them, and for some reason the Draenai are all 'oh yeah cool the Burning Legion are beat we're buds now'. And that's just one example. The drop in writing quality from SC 1 to SC 2 was noticeable and instantly so. Line writing is fine, it's underlying things that are screwed up, logic, consistent characterisation, even basic causality. Events that happen don't lead to logical conclusions on a regular basis. I felt Legion was mostly a step up though. We'll see if BfA is the same quality or higher in time. I fear it won't be though. I can almost smell a 'mad Jaina' plot brewing in the backbrain of the writing team. Well duh of course WoW lore has always been terrible in general. I dont see anyone arguing against that so bringing that up and discussing all the funny things they did in the WoW past, even expanding it to other games, seems very much like a bunch of straw men to me when we were specifically discussing the pre bfa events with Sylvanas and Saurfang. To get back to the actual point, I just dont see at all how it is such a shock and out of character for Sylvanas to destroy the night elf capital and kill their civilians. In the past she also killed peaceful farmers, raised their corpses and forced them to join her army in classic Lich King style while the player helped her. Nvm all the other shit the Forsaken did already with developing a new plague etc, also with the player helping, and where their disdain for life was always obvious. So maybe I would argue that it was stupid she wasted good corpses with the burning, but that is about it. Similarly I dont get how people find it weird that her orders to do the burning are obeyed. The horde has been burning night elf trees and homes while killing their civilians pretty much ever since arriving in Kalimdor. Also your forces dont rebel just because you are brutal to the enemy, that is something that just never happens in any war. Usually you have to tightly control your troops so that they dont commit atrocities, nevermind actually ordering them to do so. I would agree that it is weird that the Horde is working with the Forsaken in general and even accepted one them as their warchief. But the Horde having undead members and ignoring all the shit they pulled has been strange ever since WoW existed, it is really nothing new. From many arguments online I saw horde players being upset about "being the baddies" and from there went straight to the classic catch phrase "bad writing", which made the bias obvious. And then of course there is the Sylvanas fan boy fraction that somehow cant believe she would do something evil. I just dont agree at this point. And if I consider all the passion Blizzard have ignited with the recent events I rather feel this has been their biggest success in plot development in years. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On August 05 2018 00:28 Redox wrote: Well duh of course WoW lore has always been terrible in general. I dont see anyone arguing against that so bringing that up and discussing all the funny things they did in the WoW past, even expanding it to other games, seems very much like a bunch of straw men to me when we were specifically discussing the pre bfa events with Sylvanas and Saurfang. To get back to the actual point, I just dont see at all how it is such a shock and out of character for Sylvanas to destroy the night elf capital and kill their civilians. In the past she also killed peaceful farmers, raised their corpses and forced them to join her army in classic Lich King style while the player helped her. Nvm all the other shit the Forsaken did already with developing a new plague etc, also with the player helping, and where their disdain for life was always obvious. So maybe I would argue that it was stupid she wasted good corpses with the burning, but that is about it. Similarly I dont get how people find it weird that her orders to do the burning are obeyed. The horde has been burning night elf trees and homes while killing their civilians pretty much ever since arriving in Kalimdor. Also your forces dont rebel just because you are brutal to the enemy, that is something that just never happens in any war. Usually you have to tightly control your troops so that they dont commit atrocities, nevermind actually ordering them to do so. I would agree that it is weird that the Horde is working with the Forsaken in general and even accepted one them as their warchief. But the Horde having undead members and ignoring all the shit they pulled has been strange ever since WoW existed, it is really nothing new. From many arguments online I saw horde players being upset about "being the baddies" and from there went straight to the classic catch phrase "bad writing", which made the bias obvious. And then of course there is the Sylvanas fan boy fraction that somehow cant believe she would do something evil. I just dont agree at this point. And if I consider all the passion Blizzard have ignited with the recent events I rather feel this has been their biggest success in plot development in years. Can you explain the ways in which the writing is good. I think that is the simplest way to proceed. Explain clearly why the Tauren and Orcs in particular are a-ok with all this, especially given the Orcs had to very recently besiege their own capital city to put down their own rabid warchief, who was an orc. And also note that the orcs aren't actually supposed to be evil. They look brutish and violent but they're supposed to have a code of honour. Have at it. And to highlight: not many people think Sylvanas wouldn't do it; it's everyone else going along with it that's the problem. | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On August 05 2018 00:28 Redox wrote: From many arguments online I saw horde players being upset about "being the baddies" and from there went straight to the classic catch phrase "bad writing", which made the bias obvious. And then of course there is the Sylvanas fan boy fraction that somehow cant believe she would do something evil. I just dont agree at this point. And if I consider all the passion Blizzard have ignited with the recent events I rather feel this has been their biggest success in plot development in years. You're conflating the general whining with legitimate criticism. There's plenty of well outlined responses in this very thread about why this whole arc is disliked. I am a primarily Horde player at heart. I also like Sylvanas in the grand scheme of Warcraft characters, pre- and post-WoW. I don't care if they make the Horde "bad guys". I don't care if Sylvanas is unambiguously evil. Change is fine, especially since they're really trying to push the horde v alliance stuff again in BFA. Change especially gives the newer writers opportunities to have interesting ideas and tell new stories, but this all felt right up the stale alley blizz has been treading for a while now. That's what's disappointing. Not the actual events and consequences. I just like when things are interesting and characters aren't one note. I'm not surprised it's boring. Just disappointed. Like others have said, Blizz writing has been embarrassingly bad across a few franchises now. Thought maybe that maybe older writers moving on and new blood getting a chance to make their mark would change things but not yet lol. I think the Sylvanas cinematic/arc also just stands out poorly against the Jaina and Saurfang cinematics too, which I liked quite a bit more. Jaina's in particular. I haven't given a fuck about Jaina for a long time now and in Legion she legit irritated me. But her Warbringer cinematic won me over. It was a way more interesting way of showing even a modicum of character development. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20323 Posts
Quick suramar city benchmark shows that dropping slider from 10 to 1 causes +70% gain in CPU-limited FPS, that's way too big to ignore even for a fraction of that. Less dense areas suffer a lot less from this so it could be toggled onto higher settings with a macro or even an addon depending on the zone. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On August 05 2018 02:23 Cyro wrote: I'm gonna look into making a macro to toggle between environment detail / LOD settings. I've played with it a bit in the past but a lot more following blizzard changing the settings in 8.0 Quick suramar city benchmark shows that dropping slider from 10 to 1 causes +70% gain in CPU-limited FPS, that's way too big to ignore even for a fraction of that. Less dense areas suffer a lot less from this so it could be toggled onto higher settings with a macro or even an addon depending on the zone. Have you benchmarked/tested DX12 if i may ask? Esp. after the nvidia drivers that got released couple days ago. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20323 Posts
On August 05 2018 02:52 Grettin wrote: Have you benchmarked/tested DX12 if i may ask? Esp. after the nvidia drivers that got released couple days ago. Have not yet, i'm interested to see results but it'd take a while for me to set up personally On object detail: I see three variables being changed, there might be more but these seem to be the main ones: lodObjectCullSize: 35 on 1/10 slider 14 on 10/10 lower is better, the legion slider went down to 10 or below. --- lodObjectFadeScale: 50 on 1/10 slider 150 on 10/10 higher is better, legion slider went to 200+. --- lodObjectMinSize: 0 on 1/10 0 at 5/10 20 at 10/10. these can be set with a hotkeyed macro or via addon with these commands: /console SET lodObjectCullDist "1" /console SET lodObjectCullSize "50" /console SET lodObjectFadeScale "50" /console SET lodObjectMinSize "0" ^to drop settings to the floor for maximum game performance and /console SET lodObjectCullDist "30" /console SET lodObjectCullSize "14" /console SET lodObjectFadeScale "150" /console SET lodObjectMinSize "20" ^to restore it to BFA 10/10 If you wanna make something really pretty you could do object cull distance of 50+, maybe up towards 200. Cull Size can go down towards 1, FadeScale can go to 250++ and MinSize can go higher. That will go to Legion 10/10 and beyond, although a couple of the other settings are slightly different as well and can also be modified. This toggle shows an amazing performance difference in suramar city which is infamous for object density crippling performance. Some other zones that perform very well often see a difference of more like +15% because they tend to have far fewer and less performance demanding objects. Many of the instances of large performance changes from object LOD settings come in scenes where performance is at its worst which is when it's most impactful to improve performance :D It looks less pretty when toggled on but i'd happily have far fewer objects in view to stay at 50+ and even 100+ FPS at times in the FPS killer areas like Boralus, Warfronts and busy raid environments like parts of Nighthold. Will have to play with the numbers and experiment to find something that works well as a gameplay default. --- I haven't seen what problems you get from having FadeScale too low yet. lodObjectCullDist seems to control the fade in / fade out distance - an important setting, yet not touched by the environment detail slider. I guess the logic there is that it's better to keep more objects at a longer range than it is to fade in both larger and smaller objects at an increased distance so that the larger ones don't look bad. This is 30 by default but can be set to 1 for max performance or 200 for max visuals (a further 1.6x performance swing). Tuning up could help with pop-in. Currently gameplay testing the following: /console SET lodObjectCullDist "35" /console SET lodObjectCullSize "25" /console SET lodObjectFadeScale "75" /console SET lodObjectMinSize "0" I have a macro individually for the red, green and blue profiles (nuked graphics, gameplay settings, max prettiness) Here is nuked vs gameplay vs max pretty - you can see what it looks like and how it performs. Forgive the imgur compression  + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cnGM3pw.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IQvgU5t.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/c0wyjwK.jpg) Clearly night and day in both aspects Using higher performance object detail settings also reduces the performance difference between zones noticably | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
I feel like they gave Sylvanas an extremely Cersei-esque moment and instead of people enjoying it for what it is and assuming that it's a moment which sets up a bigger payoff later, that's all they can do is think of ways it doesn't make sense or is stupid. It feels very similar to the backlash against The Last Jedi. Haters didn't perceive the quality and purpose that actually was there (I never met a casual TLJ hater to whom I couldn't point out something about the movie they didn't even notice) and they're also very rigid and uncreative and unimaginative and ungenerous when it comes to filling in the blanks that the movie didn't have time to dive deep into. Having said that, there are some perfectly legitimate criticisms of TLJ. It's just the popular movement of TLJ haters that is impotent (putting aside the sexists who hated it for their own stupid reasons). But I don't understand what about a thing, whether movie or game story or whatever, that causes popular opinion to become so filled with hatred that people become literally blind to the things that did work well, and also why people focus so much on arguing why something is bad when a counterargument is just as valid. It's like a cult of blind irrational hatred has a chance of forming any time some particular thing strikes a group of people the wrong way. Anyway, I don't expect the game to provide us with some really compelling character studies. But it's better to be generous in your interpretation than assume it's maximally stupid, as if it's as stupid as whatever sound argument you can make for it being stupid. That's not how literary critique works. Maybe if you dig deep into the minutiae of side quests and lore dumps in the game, more depth will reveal itself, and especially if you consume out-of-game media, you'd hope for more depth. But still, expectations have to be kept in order. The video game itself is not going to have the character quality of say Game of Thrones the TV show, which doesn't have the quality of A Song of Ice and Fire the novels, which itself falls far short of the quality of great literature. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
nicely done cyro | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
This is a pretty bad change of a character that has planned things out so far in advance to make this invasion. She even states afterwards now they will come for us because of her action. Why did she do this? It did not fit in at all with what the story had been leading up to. Now Blizzard is going to make it fit somehow after the fact showing why she did it later on, but that's a pretty massive thing to just change on the spot. You can add in that they basically said she made a morally grey decision (this isn't morally grey for what she did so I really don't get why they used that language, its clearly evil to burn the world tree and all the non combatants there). The biggest thing that changes is that now the Alliance doesn't have to worry about repercussions of invading Undercity. If the Horde occupied Darnassus then they have leverage against the Alliance in that they have their city under control and can use that against the Alliance in trades of sorts. Burning it down didn't break their morale at all because now the Alliance has a common cause to rally against the horde. It doesn't make any sense for someone as calculating as Sylvanas to give the Alliance this massive cause to rally behind, and thats why her decision to me didn't make sense and why I disliked it. In the past she has been very calculating and thorough with decisions and understanding their consequences, so to make one like this goes against all we've been shown of who she is. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote: Are people overthinking the writing? Or underthinking? It seems like people think very hard to make an argument why something is bad and they put no effort into thinking of ways that it works. And if some things did work and some things really didn't, they focus on the things that didn't. I feel like they gave Sylvanas an extremely Cersei-esque moment and instead of people enjoying it for what it is and assuming that it's a moment which sets up a bigger payoff later, that's all they can do is think of ways it doesn't make sense or is stupid. It feels very similar to the backlash against The Last Jedi. Haters didn't perceive the quality and purpose that actually was there (I never met a casual TLJ hater to whom I couldn't point out something about the movie they didn't even notice) and they're also very rigid and uncreative and unimaginative and ungenerous when it comes to filling in the blanks that the movie didn't have time to dive deep into. Having said that, there are some perfectly legitimate criticisms of TLJ. It's just the popular movement of TLJ haters that is impotent (putting aside the sexists who hated it for their own stupid reasons). But I don't understand what about a thing, whether movie or game story or whatever, that causes popular opinion to become so filled with hatred that people become literally blind to the things that did work well, and also why people focus so much on arguing why something is bad when a counterargument is just as valid. It's like a cult of blind irrational hatred has a chance of forming any time some particular thing strikes a group of people the wrong way. Anyway, I don't expect the game to provide us with some really compelling character studies. But it's better to be generous in your interpretation than assume it's maximally stupid, as if it's as stupid as whatever sound argument you can make for it being stupid. That's not how literary critique works. Maybe if you dig deep into the minutiae of side quests and lore dumps in the game, more depth will reveal itself, and especially if you consume out-of-game media, you'd hope for more depth. But still, expectations have to be kept in order. The video game itself is not going to have the character quality of say Game of Thrones the TV show, which doesn't have the quality of A Song of Ice and Fire the novels, which itself falls far short of the quality of great literature. You're trying so hard to discredit the "haters" that it's really transparent. The precise thing that makes the writing so bad is the fact that no effort needs to go into it to point out the multitude of logical inconsistencies with both the event and Sylvanas's character. The same thing happened with WoL. | ||
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote: Are people overthinking the writing? Or underthinking? It seems like people think very hard to make an argument why something is bad and they put no effort into thinking of ways that it works. And if some things did work and some things really didn't, they focus on the things that didn't. The only way to praise the writing is to underthink it; the complaints become more concrete if you start delving into established character traits, or moved beyond that to macro ideas like strategy, obvious causal results, and the like. Unless your response is 'woh, that shot of the burning tree was great, so hype' you're going to very quickly find the multitude of problems. Including one the not-warchief standing right behind the warchief INSTANTLY highlights. On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote:I feel like they gave Sylvanas an extremely Cersei-esque moment and instead of people enjoying it for what it is and assuming that it's a moment which sets up a bigger payoff later, that's all they can do is think of ways it doesn't make sense or is stupid. The problem is that Sylvanas is not Cersei, and the entire point of Cersei's character is that she's petty, vengeful, short-sighted and a terrible, terrible ruler. It's why Tywin Lannister sent Tyrion - whom he hates - to King's Landing to rule, specifically to keep Cersei away from power. So in other words, you've just highlighted one of the main criticisms: Sylvanas does not have those character traits that would lead to the 'Cersei-esque moment'. In fact there's few female characters in fiction I can think of that have less in common than Sylvanas and Cersei Lannister. On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote:But I don't understand what about a thing, whether movie or game story or whatever, that causes popular opinion to become so filled with hatred that people become literally blind to the things that did work well, and also why people focus so much on arguing why something is bad when a counterargument is just as valid. It's like a cult of blind irrational hatred has a chance of forming any time some particular thing strikes a group of people the wrong way. Are you underthinking the backlash, perchance? You'll notice no such backlash against either Jaina's Warbringer video or the Old Soldier video. Consider why. On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote:Anyway, I don't expect the game to provide us with some really compelling character studies. But it's better to be generous in your interpretation than assume it's maximally stupid, as if it's as stupid as whatever sound argument you can make for it being stupid. That's not how literary critique works. Yet, ironically, both the Old Soldier and Warbringer: Jaina videos do both of those things in under 5 minutes, summising a decade or more of storyline and showing how the characters have changed in response to those events in a believable, meaningful manner. It's almost like one video is worse than the other two, or something. On August 06 2018 00:54 NonY wrote:Maybe if you dig deep into the minutiae of side quests and lore dumps in the game, more depth will reveal itself, and especially if you consume out-of-game media, you'd hope for more depth. But still, expectations have to be kept in order. The video game itself is not going to have the character quality of say Game of Thrones the TV show, which doesn't have the quality of A Song of Ice and Fire the novels, which itself falls far short of the quality of great literature. It sounds like you yourself don't understand why people are pissed off. The big reason the more surface-reading crowd are angry is because this feels like a retread. The most obvious feeling for where this is going is the Horde having to kick out ANOTHER warchief who has gone off the rails, since, you know, she's now a 100% war criminal, like Garrosh was, as Saurfang neatly summises. More in-character roleplayers are now furious because they feel like they literally can't support the faction they love because Sylvanas has dishonored the entirety of the orcish race, every Horde druid is now seriously wondering how to rationalise being part of the Horde at all because of this senseless, petty sacrilege (and that is the right word if you're a druid). There's nothing gained by what Sylvanas does, there's only problems and negative consequences. She's been presented as many things, but petty and short-sighted are not two of them. She IS vengeful, and can be cruel as well, but she's also calm, calculated, and intelligent. Until now, when she takes an action that should have consequences the game can't possibly follow through with (i.e. every Horde druid sitting out the war if not actively going over to the alliance and offering their help to kill her). And again, this is re-treading the old path of the Horde being the aggressive monster villain faction. That's what makes it bad writing. And the fact that people are already exhaustedly saying 'oh, it's probably old god corruption or something' is even worse. Because people aren't saying 'oh, here's this obvious explanation that's rooted in what we know of Sylvanas that the video simply isn't highlighting to reveal later', they're jumping to 'well this HAS to be mind control'. Another relaively well-known warcraft story nerd has pointed out that this is all put into action because Sylvanas is essentially scared that Anduin - ANDUIN, OF ALL PEOPLE - will come after them if they don't alpha strike and show strength. That doesn't even need to be thought about to see what a silly idea it is. And a final note; we were promised 'morally grey' by Blizzard. It's something that's been echoing through the community for a while, and people with a less aware view of their writing style were of the opinion that the burning of the tree might be a horrible accident, or not the horde's fault at all, maybe something blamed on them, making the whole war a tragic accident that comes about because of outside manipulation or - for once - the Alliance assuming the worst and refusing to listen. Then Sylvanas: Warbringer turns up. MORALLY GREY!!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah, and an extra knife to the heart of that idea; Sylvanas burns the tree in part because Saurfang doesn't cold-bloodedly murder Malfurion. You know, that guy who's directly saved the world half a dozen times? It's moustache-twirling villainy. There's a goddamn lingering shot of her smiling as the tree burns with women and children inside it while their families beg for mercy. So a lot of the outrage comes from disappointment as well. Fortunately, I'm well aware Blizz are shit writers and didn't believe a word of it. They're a bit like Bethesda; they can write some short-term stuff excellently (see: Jaina's Warbringer video), and do great singular events. But overall plotting is tropey as fuck and incredibly unimaginative. They've learned very little from their competitors on this front (admittedly they never really needed to, but still). | ||
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
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FarmI3oy
United States255 Posts
On August 06 2018 20:23 crappen wrote: How's casters looking going into BFA? Utility and mobility wise, are they on pair with melees? Hoping elemental, boomkin or a mage specc would nice to have in groups. Many caster specs are in a good spot with the exception of warlocks. It seems they are sort of at the bottom right now. Melee specs, especially rogues, are insane at the moment. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On August 06 2018 21:04 Unleashing wrote: Demonology warlock might be at the bottom but affliction warlock certainly isn't Sads. Demonology is the most fun by far. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On August 05 2018 00:28 Redox wrote: Well duh of course WoW lore has always been terrible in general. I dont see anyone arguing against that so bringing that up and discussing all the funny things they did in the WoW past, even expanding it to other games, seems very much like a bunch of straw men to me when we were specifically discussing the pre bfa events with Sylvanas and Saurfang. To get back to the actual point, I just dont see at all how it is such a shock and out of character for Sylvanas to destroy the night elf capital and kill their civilians. In the past she also killed peaceful farmers, raised their corpses and forced them to join her army in classic Lich King style while the player helped her. Nvm all the other shit the Forsaken did already with developing a new plague etc, also with the player helping, and where their disdain for life was always obvious. So maybe I would argue that it was stupid she wasted good corpses with the burning, but that is about it. Similarly I dont get how people find it weird that her orders to do the burning are obeyed. The horde has been burning night elf trees and homes while killing their civilians pretty much ever since arriving in Kalimdor. Also your forces dont rebel just because you are brutal to the enemy, that is something that just never happens in any war. Usually you have to tightly control your troops so that they dont commit atrocities, nevermind actually ordering them to do so. I would agree that it is weird that the Horde is working with the Forsaken in general and even accepted one them as their warchief. But the Horde having undead members and ignoring all the shit they pulled has been strange ever since WoW existed, it is really nothing new. From many arguments online I saw horde players being upset about "being the baddies" and from there went straight to the classic catch phrase "bad writing", which made the bias obvious. And then of course there is the Sylvanas fan boy fraction that somehow cant believe she would do something evil. I just dont agree at this point. And if I consider all the passion Blizzard have ignited with the recent events I rather feel this has been their biggest success in plot development in years. I feel like this has been mentioned to you in a variety of ways so I'll just go in point form: 1) I can't speak for all horde players but I have no problems with the horde doing an invasion of alliance territory. I actually have no problems with horde being the aggressor. Sylvannas as callous evil? Great. Stop lumping legit criticism with what fans want as head cannon. 2) I do have a problem if this is boring. It's boring for people to just be evil "because the plot needs it". What's the motivation that we are supposed to relate to? Blizzard actually had some of this in there - the horde needs to attack first as a strategic move, to take out alliance capabilities. However... 3) I really have a problem if motivations are inconsistent. Sylvannas is a pragmatic, ammoral survivor. It's her theme since Arthas died, and all the more so now that her respanws are limited. Suarfang is an honorable old orc who wants the horde to be the honorable entity of old, and who has already seen the horde committing atrocities under a rogue war chief. Burning down the tree (as depicted in the game) makes no sense for either set of motivations. Sylvannas gets the entire alliance wanting to kill her, and Saurfang relives his failures under garrosh. IF burning the tree was a strategic move, then this did not come across in the game or the cinematic. Gaming is an interactive medium and so if the game itself does not convey the story then depending on external material like books is already a failure in itself. The cinematic did not set up why burning the thing was a strategic choice - instead it had very confusing stuff about hating life itself. 4) Yes this might all just turn out to be setting the stage for later revelations, but the issue with this argument is that unlike a movie (where there revelation will occur within the next hour or two), players are stuck with the current state of affairs for weeks if not months. And during this time they have no choice but to fulfil the whims of the plot. | ||
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