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I'm not that much into lore, so from my perspective, this is one of the best cinematics I've seen. I loved the burning it all to the ground part, she is on full tilt, and so are much of the players.
Can't remember people being on fire like they are now. And sure, in wc3 horde was the good guys, but I want a conflict in wow, I want faction conflict to be felt. I don't care if Sylvanas would have held that city at hostage, cause honestly, I don't give a shit about those innocents, so it gave me better chills when she just burned it.
I can't be the only one who is tired of another expansion where we all sing together and defeat monster nr 37? I'd love to be part of an evil faction, or the part that fights them
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Well... @crappen, to your comment "can't remember people being on fire like they are now", I think the answer would be 3 expansions ago where the Horde Warchief blew up an alliance city - this is just kinda stale.
As for the story line generally:
1) It is bad story telling in an MMO where one side has to "wait and see" for a reveal that is in the future. This works for books or films, but the problem in an MMO is that while one faction is "waiting and seeing", that faction unfortunately has to participate in a bad story line for no particular compelling reason.
2) It is also bad story telling in an MMO where one side is used as a narrative tool to "fire up" the other faction. Sure I guess the Alliance gets all pumped since now they get to take their revenge, but this is at the expense of the other half of the player base having to be reluctant villains.
3) Speaking of the Alliance, the Nigh Elves have gone from the race that held off a demonic invasion during the war of the ancients, to narrative excuse for a war. So were I an alliance Nelf I would be pretty meh about having my faction capital blown up, just so that the rest of the Alliance can embark on Righteous Revenge.
4) I get that we are in a universe of magic and dragons, but catapults shooting at Darnassus all the way from Darkshore really require a massive suspension of belief. On top of that, you would also have to accept that a magical giant tree located in the middle of the sea can catch fire after a few shots from these long range catapults.
5) Sylvannas' motivations are just plain unclear. Why is this "I hate life" being introduced to her already established principles of pragmatism and self-interest? If she originally did not intend to burn the tree, and changed her mind when the dying nelf spurned her, then why did she handily have all those catapults ready? If she always wanted to burn the tree, then why does the cinematic suggest that she made the decision only after seeing the nelf die?
The problem is that all the above things simply just happen because the plot (or well the game) requires for them to happen. There is no real motivation or reason inside the story to justify what has occurred.
p.s. how exactly did Sylvannas tell the nelf guard her life story? Was this like some telepathic exchange (did not know she could do that)? Or did she sit down and tell a dying person her long story about how Arthas killed her?
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On August 01 2018 22:56 levelping wrote:
p.s. how exactly did Sylvannas tell the nelf guard her life story? Was this like some telepathic exchange (did not know she could do that)? Or did she sit down and tell a dying person her long story about how Arthas killed her?
Banshees can possess the living and Sylvanas can communicate telepathically (Silverpine Forest has quests where Sylvanas talks to you telepathically). Could just as well be as you said, that she told the night elf the story, but obviously we get to see it in a cinematic way. Most Elfs probably know the story well enough anyway.
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As a returning player I feel fairly confused atm.
Played a lot of Vanilla. A bunch of TBC. A little bit of MoP. Resubbed last Weekend and am still trying to figure out what class I want to play (first).
All my characters that hit max lvl or were close were Horde. I actually wanted to play Alliance this time. I like the Worgen and playable Dark Iron Dwarves look/sound damn awesome.
But now that warbringer hit and I feel like an ass for abandoning my faction, when they are in dire need of not insane ppl. On the other hand realmpop/wowprogress tell me that the Horde is not the underdog anymore (player activity wise) and that like 40% of the Horde are Blood Elves... so... dunno man... not sure if that is worth my sympathy. xD
I mean, I never was a huge fan of the Night Elves, so I can't even bring myself to really care for that tree. Though not sure what my Tauren Druid would think. Prolly #NotMyWarchief if I had to guess.
I also was never a fan of Sylvanas and/or the Forsaken either and appointing her to Warchief sounds like a really really REALLY bad idea to me. Annoying that we probably have to wait for a long time until we find out what the hell Vol'Jin/the Loa were thinking with that one.
I don't mind myself some good old Alliance vs Horde action. I have fond memories of harassing Alliance players in Ashenvale and not so fond memories of getting backstabbed by Alliance Rogues in Stranglethorn a lot.
But the reason for this war is kinda flimsy and Sylvanas is basically going Bi-erm-Lich Queen with that enemy of life thing. So from what we know so far Sylvanas either has to sacc herself to stop like an Old God or will end up as a Raid Boss... or both. Not really seeing another way out of that. Can't see the Alliance being happy until she is dead for good either.
So for me its super weird. I guess as Alliance I should really hate Sylvanas? But I can't really bring myself to care cause I don't feel a strong connection to the nelfes. Also wtfs wrong with Jaina for that matter, her warbringer thing was also super strange to me.
As Horde. I don't mind being the bad guy... if it is for a good reason. Not seeing a real good reason here. So I guess I am supposed to trust in Vol'Jin and the Loa?
Awkward. Can I make my own faction with hookers and black jack?
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On August 02 2018 01:03 disformation wrote:
Awkward. Can I make my own faction with hookers and black jack?
I'd join, even if you give up on the blackjack.
As for the story, I think they have be going the route where Sylvanas is under the influence of the old gods right now. I don't think they want to make her a raid boss though kus then everyone will be even more up in arms about this just being a Garrosh 2.0. I bet they do more of the turn around story, where Sylvanas realizes at some point that she lost herself here and likely sacrifices herself to prevent the old gods fully realizing their goal sometime near the end of the expac. The whole burning the world tree just is so weird for her character as we know it now, but it lines up so well with the goals of the old gods. I also don't think it can be a coincidence that the World Tree gets burned shortly after we see Azeroth suffering a terrible wound from Sargaras' sword (if you don't recall the Nelfs always plant these trees to help the world heal).
Given how they are going about the story I don't blame hordies for being mad, or even jumping ship. At least in Pandaland there was clear dissent about what Garrosh was doing, but here it's just off in so many ways. We will just have to see where the story goes, though I wonder if the amount of backlash Blizz is getting will make them change things. There is clearly some over the top fan reactions going on right now, but there is also some pretty well deserved criticism (this guy said it well).
I like the sound of the Dark Iron Dwarves as well (still unlocking the races myself) and I don't recall if they can be shamans but if they can I will likely roll one myself. If you are going for something Thematic I feel like a Worgen Druid would have tons of motivation to join the fray after this cinematic.
Bottom line is play what you want, I tend to play Alliance (I know, I know, gnome love for me) but will usually have a toon on the horde just for story reasons.
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There have been hints through varies places that (un)dead are immune to Old God corruption, from the undead mining Old God blood in WotLK (Saronite) and Deathknights being able to wear it as armor without going insane.
Plus during the 3 Sisters short story that came out recently when Alleria meets Sylvanas for the first time the Void gets really insistent that she should be killed. Seems wierd to do that if Sylvanas is their pawn, knowingly or otherwise.
Dark Iron Dwarves are currently not in the game yet, they will be added some time during BfA and will likely require 7th Legion rep. And yes they can be Shamans.
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On August 02 2018 01:59 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 01:03 disformation wrote:
Awkward. Can I make my own faction with hookers and black jack? I'd join, even if you give up on the blackjack. As for the story, I think they have be going the route where Sylvanas is under the influence of the old gods right now. I don't think they want to make her a raid boss though kus then everyone will be even more up in arms about this just being a Garrosh 2.0. I bet they do more of the turn around story, where Sylvanas realizes at some point that she lost herself here and likely sacrifices herself to prevent the old gods fully realizing their goal sometime near the end of the expac. The whole burning the world tree just is so weird for her character as we know it now, but it lines up so well with the goals of the old gods. I also don't think it can be a coincidence that the World Tree gets burned shortly after we see Azeroth suffering a terrible wound from Sargaras' sword (if you don't recall the Nelfs always plant these trees to help the world heal). Given how they are going about the story I don't blame hordies for being mad, or even jumping ship. At least in Pandaland there was clear dissent about what Garrosh was doing, but here it's just off in so many ways. We will just have to see where the story goes, though I wonder if the amount of backlash Blizz is getting will make them change things. There is clearly some over the top fan reactions going on right now, but there is also some pretty well deserved criticism ( this guy said it well). I like the sound of the Dark Iron Dwarves as well (still unlocking the races myself) and I don't recall if they can be shamans but if they can I will likely roll one myself. If you are going for something Thematic I feel like a Worgen Druid would have tons of motivation to join the fray after this cinematic. Bottom line is play what you want, I tend to play Alliance (I know, I know, gnome love for me) but will usually have a toon on the horde just for story reasons.
I think the bottom line is that you should keep playing WoW so long as you think it's fun - just be realistic about your expectations about the plot.
p.s. I think it would be rather lame for Sylvanas to be redeemed that way. Her death would be basically be completely out of character with how her character for the whole of wow - which is that she serves her own interests. This kind of complete 180 of character motivation would make even less sense than her motivations for burning the tree.
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I agree it would be kinda a cop out story-telling wise, but I just don't see where else they are going with this.
Then again it sounds like much of the backstory here isn't even from the game itself and buried in the books which just makes the current situation worse. Yes I realize this is not really a new thing, but it makes trying to make sense of the story extra frustrating.
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On August 02 2018 02:37 Tictock wrote:
I agree it would be kinda a cop out story-telling wise, but I just don't see where else they are going with this.
Then again it sounds like much of the backstory here isn't even from the game itself and buried in the books which just makes the current situation worse. Yes I realize this is not really a new thing, but it makes trying to make sense of the story extra frustrating.
In lastes book "Before the storm"
+ Show Spoiler +Sylvanas wants to avoid war at all costs, so nothing makes sense now :D
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On August 02 2018 02:37 Tictock wrote:
I agree it would be kinda a cop out story-telling wise, but I just don't see where else they are going with this.
Then again it sounds like much of the backstory here isn't even from the game itself and buried in the books which just makes the current situation worse. Yes I realize this is not really a new thing, but it makes trying to make sense of the story extra frustrating.
I think one way this could all work (and you can still sort of shift the storyline I think) is to focus less on "I HATE LIFE", and on how the Horde as a political entity would react to a political entity like the Alliance. The Horde basically just went through a civil war where the Alliance could have killed off the Horde as an entity. The Horde is a position of weakness and is acting not so much for big ideas like I HATE LIFE, but simply survival.
The actions of the Horde start to become more empathetic.
Keep the focus on this, and less on whatever weird internal reasons that they are trying to give Sylvannas.
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Idk why it is so hard to believe that Sylvanas would burn her enemies' city. She has no morals as shown many times before and she thinks she can break the will of her enemy by doing it.
Maybe you can argue that her action is irrational because it is more likely to incite the enemy than crush their hope. But then again throughout human history, even quite recently, military leaders that seemed much more rational and moral than her ordered atrocities and had their enemies' cities burned. It is really nothing unusual in a war.
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On August 02 2018 03:07 levelping wrote:
The Horde basically just went through a civil war where the Alliance could have killed off the Horde as an entity.
??? I know nothing about this
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On August 02 2018 03:10 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 03:07 levelping wrote:
The Horde basically just went through a civil war where the Alliance could have killed off the Horde as an entity.
??? I know nothing about this
The Siege of Orgimmar was basically a Horde Civil War, with the Allaince supporting one side. I think Jaina even urged Varian to end the Horde there and then, in the closing cinematic.
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On August 02 2018 03:09 Redox wrote:
Idk why it is so hard to believe that Sylvanas would burn her enemies' city. She has no morals as shown many times before and she thinks she can break the will of her enemy by doing it.
Maybe you can argue that her action is irrational because it is more likely to incite the enemy than crush their hope. But then again throughout human history, even quite recently, military leaders that seemed much more rational and moral than her ordered atrocities and had their enemies' cities burned. It is really nothing unusual in a war.
Nah I think that the burning of the city itself is entirely believable.
If the cinematic had kept this focused on crushing the will of the Alliance, then great. However, it instead suggested that Sylvannas is acting out of some hatred for life (?), and that the decision to burn the tree was made based on what she heard from a dying Nelf guard.
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On August 02 2018 03:09 Redox wrote:
Idk why it is so hard to believe that Sylvanas would burn her enemies' city. She has no morals as shown many times before and she thinks she can break the will of her enemy by doing it.
Maybe you can argue that her action is irrational because it is more likely to incite the enemy than crush their hope. But then again throughout human history, even quite recently, military leaders that seemed much more rational and moral than her ordered atrocities and had their enemies' cities burned. It is really nothing unusual in a war.
I think the problems arise when you consider things outside of the scope of "this is war" which until this moment it hasn't really been. Like there wasn't really a war happening until this battle, so what will is she breaking? She should be smart enough to realize this could only be a catalyst for War not a method of breaking spirits.
And writing anything off as "not unusual in war" is just shit. Especially so when you bring up RL stuff. People do things for reasons and should be accountable for their actions. Obv sylvanas is going to be held accountable at some point here, but right now the convoluted web of "reasons" just makes this a bad story.
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On August 02 2018 03:19 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 03:10 Tictock wrote:On August 02 2018 03:07 levelping wrote:
The Horde basically just went through a civil war where the Alliance could have killed off the Horde as an entity.
??? I know nothing about this The Siege of Orgimmar was basically a Horde Civil War, with the Allaince supporting one side. I think Jaina even urged Varian to end the Horde there and then, in the closing cinematic.
That was like 2 expansions ago though... And everyone just went through a rallying together crusade against the legion. So I don't think your point holds.
And right now Jaina's story is the one I am more interested in than Sylvanas who is the more central but very confused character.
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On August 02 2018 03:25 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 03:09 Redox wrote:
Idk why it is so hard to believe that Sylvanas would burn her enemies' city. She has no morals as shown many times before and she thinks she can break the will of her enemy by doing it.
Maybe you can argue that her action is irrational because it is more likely to incite the enemy than crush their hope. But then again throughout human history, even quite recently, military leaders that seemed much more rational and moral than her ordered atrocities and had their enemies' cities burned. It is really nothing unusual in a war. I think the problems arise when you consider things outside of the scope of "this is war" which until this moment it hasn't really been. Like there wasn't really a war happening until this battle, so what will is she breaking? She should be smart enough to realize this could only be a catalyst for War not a method of breaking spirits. And writing anything off as "not unusual in war" is just shit. Especially so when you bring up RL stuff. People do things for reasons and should be accountable for their actions. Obv sylvanas is going to be held accountable at some point here, but right now the convoluted web of "reasons" just makes this a bad story.
My point was more that believing burning a city will crush the will of your enemy is a quite common thing. It is just our "enlightened" and post WW2 thinking that lets us assume this is not helpful. But on a wider scale I would say we are the exception with that. From a "medieval" character you would rather expect that kind of thinking.
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In general, in a vaccum, and with no longstanding history of this sort of thing going on between the two sides? Sure I agree with you.
In World of Warcraft? Please, how many cities have been raised now? And has it ever had the effect of crushing anyone's spirit?
I get what you are saying, I just don't think it's applicable here. Especially when you consider the character that has been built up for Sylvanas up to this point.
PS: Sorry for spamming up this thread. I'm just bored at work today and didn't get a chance to blow off steam after playing through the pre-release stuff yesterday.
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On August 02 2018 03:28 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2018 03:19 levelping wrote:On August 02 2018 03:10 Tictock wrote:On August 02 2018 03:07 levelping wrote:
The Horde basically just went through a civil war where the Alliance could have killed off the Horde as an entity.
??? I know nothing about this The Siege of Orgimmar was basically a Horde Civil War, with the Allaince supporting one side. I think Jaina even urged Varian to end the Horde there and then, in the closing cinematic. That was like 2 expansions ago though... And everyone just went through a rallying together crusade against the legion. So I don't think your point holds. And right now Jaina's story is the one I am more interested in than Sylvanas who is the more central but very confused character.
I don't know what the in-game time line is like, but countries take years if not decades to get over a civil war where half of the population was either killed or defeated by the other half.
For what it's worth I don't find this a really compelling point either, but I think that it COULD help save the plot since it focuses the Horde's motivations on survival (which actually makes sense), rather that what we have now.
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On August 02 2018 03:44 Tictock wrote:
In general, in a vaccum, and with no longstanding history of this sort of thing going on between the two sides? Sure I agree with you.
In World of Warcraft? Please, how many cities have been raised now? And has it ever had the effect of crushing anyone's spirit?
I get what you are saying, I just don't think it's applicable here. Especially when you consider the character that has been built up for Sylvanas up to this point.
PS: Sorry for spamming up this thread. I'm just bored at work today and didn't get a chance to blow off steam after playing through the pre-release stuff yesterday.
Actually, Sylvannas' own home city of Quelthalas go completely obliterated, AND a lich took a bath in their sunwell, AND half their race followed their (eventually crazy) king into exile, AND still the blood elves did not get crushed.
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EPT
