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On December 17 2016 06:15 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2016 06:00 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 17 2016 02:16 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
they are rushing shit too fast - its probably nice for the 40 guilds who killed helya but as a 8h raid who is only progressing on helya since wednesday and with holidays in mind where we do not raid at all - we are probably not gonna make it and it really does not feel good to not being able to keep up i so you are butthurt that a boss is too hard for you to kill before the new content comes out. I don't see how that is blizzard's fault. I repeat myself, it does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Last tier it was the guilds below say top 900 in the world that were sad because they couldn't kill Xavius before ToV was released, now it might be all guilds below top 200. Who cares? It's not like she was impossible to kill, just very hard. If you didn't have the time and/or the skill required to kill her, it's entirely your own problem, not blizzard's. Complaining about too much content being released too quickly... holy shit honestly. Why do you see everything as a complaint and then get upset over it? I've never understood the complaining about people complaining thing, especially when the initial comments are often observations rather than "fuck you blizz, fuck everything" complaints.
I apologize for the harsh words, but how is "they are rushing things too fast" not a complaint? It upsets me becausw there is literally no argument against a release of NH in his post. He openly admits that his raid doesn't spend much time on raiding, nor do many of them on farming AP, so it actually makes 100% sense that his guild should not be able to kill the final boss of a tier before the release of a new one. Posts like these just rub me the wrong way, like you're entitled to have cutting edge, and if you don't, blizzard screwed up. For once in a long time they are releasing new end game content at a quick pace, feels a bit like BC again. More raids and bosses than most guilds can keep up with, which to me is the way it should be, and openly complaining about it is what lead to shit like LFR and raids being too easy in general. You always have something to progress on, that is a GOOD thing, it does not have to be the last phase of the final boss on the highest difficulty.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
He openly admits that his raid doesn't spend much time on raiding, nor do many of them on farming AP, so it actually makes 100% sense that his guild should not be able to kill the final boss of a tier before the release of a new one.
Yeah, i don't disagree. There's a list of extremely good, hardcore guilds with 5-10x higher ranking than that who had free passes at cutting edge in the past but don't have helya kills, though. At the very least it's interesting because of the unusual difficulty.
how is "they are rushing things too fast" not a complaint?
Blizzard openly tunes around completion times / percentages with the goal of spacing out raids and creating relatively smooth progression paths for guilds. They'd rather have people take, say, 100 wipes per boss instead of killing 5 bosses in 20 wipes and then the 6'th boss taking 600 wipes.
More raids and bosses than most guilds can keep up with, which to me is the way it should be, and openly complaining about it is what lead to shit like LFR and raids being too easy in general. You always have something to progress on, that is a GOOD thing, it does not have to be the last phase of the final boss on the highest difficulty.
I agree, but donating 60% of the raid bosses and tuning the last one to take longer than 1-8 put together is not the most appealing way to raise raid difficulty as a whole.
Having 2600 guilds at 7/10m and 40 guilds at 10/10m is a bit of a tuning failure. They could have had, for example, 1000 guilds at 4/10m, 600 guilds at 7/10m and 300 guilds at 10/10m. This would be a much harder Mythic as a whole, it would kick a bunch of mythic guilds back to Heroic but it would have been much smoother progression at the same time.
They tune around that for a good reason, it doesn't feel good to alternate between free bosses and unkillable bosses and that's a legitimate complaint that isn't neccesarily rooted in the overall difficulty of the raid
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On December 17 2016 06:50 Cyro wrote:Many comments of that nature are and i think it's odd for the people complaining about complaints to be way more upset than those making the initial complaint (if it even is a complaint). It's a surprisingly common theme on the internet recently, especially on any controversial topic  ---- Show nested quote +the expectation now seems to be that everyone should be able to clear one tier of content before the next tier. Not everyone but a certain percentage. A top 100 guild has cruised through all content before the release of the next content for many years, of course that's expected if they're better than 99% of the guilds that primarily raid mythic. More people raid mythic than before, more GOOD people raid mythic than before and these top 100 guilds are full of extremely skilled and dedicated players, usually raiding many hours and abusing things like farming alt characters for extra loot to compete at that level. If they tuned Mythic harder so that 1000 guilds mainly raided it (and those bottom 9000 were too bad to step foot there) then that expectation would shift from the top 100 to the top 10. I don't know how you can use "casuals" in a discussion about top 100 guilds. A top guild on my server that raids at this level has the following description on WoWprogress: Show nested quote +As a guild we place emphasis on toxicity-free raid environment and achieving good results by raiding less with higher quality of raids. They spend 20 hours in raid per week during initial progress. That kind of schedule while having multiple geared alts and mythic+ farming on main, getting raid consumables etc is the complete opposite of casual, it's life-consuming.
20 hours a week during progress is like semi hardcore at best. Atleast it used to be. Top 50 guilds used to clear their schedules for content for like a week and take time off work. I skipped like 3 weeks of my evening classes and purposely scehduled bs req courses to do it. Admittedly thats unreasonable and not healthy but thats what it mean to be top tier. Thats what it should mean to be top tier at anything. And im not just talking brute forcing content, this was quality time spent figuring shit out pulls etc etc.
Again as a casual I think this expansion is great, Its not like a play little i probably play like 20 hours a week total aswell but Im not sitting here thinking I should be able to clear high tier content. "Why are mythic bosses so hard I cant pug them ?
Wailllll" i mean where does it stop. You're making it sound like you shouldnt have to choose between a social life and being the very best at something." Have cake, eat it..etc etc.
Also to your point about people complaining about complainers. People dont randomely show up to criticize complaints there has to be a complain in the first place.
Secondly if you feel like theres alot of it, its probably because your endless crusade to defend them is getting weary. If you just ignored it, it wont feel like that much. But you feel strongly enough about it to contest it every time it comes up and thats your prerogative I suppose, power to you.
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On December 17 2016 07:19 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +He openly admits that his raid doesn't spend much time on raiding, nor do many of them on farming AP, so it actually makes 100% sense that his guild should not be able to kill the final boss of a tier before the release of a new one. Yeah, i don't disagree. There's a list of extremely good, hardcore guilds with 5-10x higher ranking than that who had free passes at cutting edge in the past but don't have helya kills, though. At the very least it's interesting because of the unusual difficulty. Blizzard openly tunes around completion times / percentages with the goal of spacing out raids and creating relatively smooth progression paths for guilds. They'd rather have people take, say, 100 wipes per boss instead of killing 5 bosses in 20 wipes and then the 6'th boss taking 600 wipes. Show nested quote +More raids and bosses than most guilds can keep up with, which to me is the way it should be, and openly complaining about it is what lead to shit like LFR and raids being too easy in general. You always have something to progress on, that is a GOOD thing, it does not have to be the last phase of the final boss on the highest difficulty. I agree, but donating 60% of the raid bosses and tuning the last one to take longer than 1-8 put together is not the most appealing way to raise raid difficulty as a whole. Having 2600 guilds at 7/10m and 40 guilds at 10/10m is a bit of a tuning failure. They could have had, for example, 1000 guilds at 4/10m, 600 guilds at 7/10m and 300 guilds at 10/10m. This would be a much harder Mythic as a whole, it would kick a bunch of mythic guilds back to Heroic but it would have been much smoother progression at the same time. They tune around that for a good reason, it doesn't feel good to alternate between free bosses and unkillable bosses and that's a legitimate complaint that isn't neccesarily rooted in the overall difficulty of the raid
But what im reading everywhere is that EN was just too fucking easy. So when you have 2600 guilds at 7/10 there are about 2000 guilds who would not have cleared for example Highmaul on mythic. There are a lot of shit guilds that were doing heroic only and have now gotten mythic kills, mainly because they outgear mythic so hard due to mythic plus and titanforging, which would not have been possible before. And while they outgear the 880 dropping EN they do not outgear the 895 dropping ToV. I dont raid though but from what ive seen on Helya vids she isnt harder than previous tier end bosses and she didnt require more pulls either. So i dunno, things are different from now on. Im already bored of ToV hc.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
20 hours a week during progress is like semi hardcore at best. Atleast it used to be. Top 50 guilds used to clear their schedules for content for like a week and take time off work. I skipped like 3 weeks of my evening classes and purposely scehduled bs req courses to do it. Admittedly thats unreasonable and not healthy but thats what it mean to be top tier. Thats what it should mean to be top tier at anything. And im not just talking brute forcing content, this was quality time spent figuring shit out pulls etc etc.
People always killed bosses without doing that, though, at least since Wrath. Sure, the top 10 guilds do that for progression racing. Many of the top 50 guilds do it. This guild isn't in the top 50. Those 20 hours are raid time, not total playtime.
Admittedly thats unreasonable and not healthy but thats what it mean to be top tier.
Not suggesting that these players should be at the top of the list, this is just the type of player that has not had trouble clearing raids on any difficulty before the next tier because they're better than 99.97% of players and have the hours to back it up; not #1 but enough skill and dedication to make the vast majority of mythic guilds look silly.
But what im reading everywhere is that EN was just too fucking easy. So when you have 2600 guilds at 7/10 there are about 2000 guilds who would not have cleared for example Highmaul on mythic.
The amount of guilds clearing WOD content before the new tier was around 1-2k IIRC. I did account for those guilds but they're only a fraction of these players
Having 2600 guilds at 7/10m and 40 guilds at 10/10m is a bit of a tuning failure. They could have had, for example, 1000 guilds at 4/10m, 600 guilds at 7/10m and 300 guilds at 10/10m. This would be a much harder Mythic as a whole, it would kick a bunch of mythic guilds back to Heroic
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from what ive seen on Helya vids she isnt harder than previous tier end bosses and she didnt require more pulls either
The kill video from the rank 1 worldwide guild gives a fairly limited perspective. #1 world was relatively fast (as expected for a 3-boss raid) but everything else after it was very slow afterwards - you could grab a list of names from rank 10-250 guilds and ask them personally how hard Helya is compared to other bosses.
The impression that i've got is that she's the hardest boss by a mile to make Cutting Edge for since MOP or earlier. Partially due to Nighthold timing (~9 resets for 3 bosses over christmas), but still unusually hard for a mythic raid.
There's a running joke about Method being #1 and #2 simultaneously because they killed her twice before any other guild managed it 
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World first Helya was 28 days ago. So far 40 guilds managed to kill her. So let's compare:
World first Archimonde: July 16th, 28 days later (August 13th): 29 guilds had killed him.
World first Blackhand: Feb 20th, 28 days later (March 20th): 37 guilds killed him.
I didn't check back further but I highly doubt it will look much different. So Helya as a final tier boss ist completely fine, actually even a little easier than the last final bosses.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Hm, sounds like my thoughts for first 50 kills were wrong then, my bad.
Some other avenues of thought:
Those bosses were nerfed after release (around the same time for Helya, i guess) and left for many months post-nerf before extra content so killing them "in time" was a very reasonable goal for many more players. People getting up to Helya, having a nerf and then Nighthold dropping 5 raid days later is a bit of a curveball
In those raids there is another factor as well, gear. People that took 6 weeks to kill Archimonde had way more damage than anybody had on day 1. If you went in with 50k DPS for example, this would improve to 75k within a handful of weeks and 100k+ if clearing the raid took you a while just because of the item level increase, new trinkets, a 4 piece bonus giving you +15% damage etc. Even the first Archi M kills had maybe 1 or 2 legendary rings IIRC from the luckiest people but following kills had 8 or 20 people stacked up with the ring as well which quite dramatically cut the fight difficulty.
In TOV the gear that you enter with is functionally the same as the gear that you end with, there is no weekly reset time component there. Players don't do this dance of wiping 300 times on Helya as their gear improves enough and they eventually make the cut thing, they just don't kill Helya.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just that it's the way that it is and that it's unusual compared to previous raids. I think that these things impact my percieved difficulty of mythic a lot more than the initial kills done by the very top players.
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![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/122829094168559617/217313949115219969/IMG_2627.JPG)
LMAO :D
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I suppose gear won't improve as drastically, although there are probably still some ppl in top guilds without 35 traits, and I agree that the timing is odd with the holidays coming up, but I still expect them to nerf Helya quite hard next week, giving ambitious raids a solid 2-4 weeks of progress on her before NH release, which should lead to at least a couple hundred kills, so in the end it won't be much different from previous tiers really. Only big difference being that the top 500 guilds won't be stuck doing old content while waiting for the rest to catch up.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
although there are probably still some ppl on top guilds wothout 35 traits
many players in top 250 guilds have 2-4x the AP required to buy 35 and the world #1 AP could buy it 13 times over - that breakpoint isn't very relevant any more but there's a significant power gap between say 40 and 54.
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On December 17 2016 09:07 Cyro wrote:Hm, sounds like my thoughts for first 50 kills were wrong then, my bad. Some other avenues of thought: Those bosses were nerfed after release (around the same time for Helya, i guess) and left for many months post-nerf before extra content so killing them "in time" was a very reasonable goal for many more players. People getting up to Helya, having a nerf and then Nighthold dropping 5 raid days later is a bit of a curveball In those raids there is another factor as well, gear. People that took 6 weeks to kill Archimonde had way more damage than anybody had on day 1. If you went in with 50k DPS for example, this would improve to 75k within a handful of weeks and 100k+ if clearing the raid took you a while just because of the item level increase, new trinkets, a 4 piece bonus giving you +15% damage etc. Even the first Archi M kills had maybe 1 or 2 legendary rings IIRC from the luckiest people but following kills had 8 or 20 people stacked up with the ring as well which quite dramatically cut the fight difficulty. In TOV the gear that you enter with is functionally the same as the gear that you end with, there is no weekly reset time component there. Players don't do this dance of wiping 300 times on Helya as their gear improves enough and they eventually make the cut thing, they just don't kill Helya. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just that it's the way that it is and that it's unusual compared to previous raids. I think that these things impact my percieved difficulty of mythic a lot more than the initial kills done by the very top players. ---- LMAO :D
that was a common thing at the start, since apparently going straight to the 2nd talent wont give you any real dps gains they speculated it'd be better to take damage then respec and the 2nd tier or whatever would give more than the 1st if you could reach it in one go
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On December 17 2016 06:00 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2016 02:16 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
they are rushing shit too fast - its probably nice for the 40 guilds who killed helya but as a 8h raid who is only progressing on helya since wednesday and with holidays in mind where we do not raid at all - we are probably not gonna make it and it really does not feel good to not being able to keep up so you are butthurt that a boss is too hard for you to kill before the new content comes out. I don't see how that is blizzard's fault. I repeat myself, it does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Last tier it was the guilds below say top 900 in the world that were sad because they couldn't kill Xavius before ToV was released, now it might be all guilds below top 200. Who cares? It's not like she was impossible to kill, just very hard. If you didn't have the time and/or the skill required to kill her, it's entirely your own problem, not blizzard's. Complaining about too much content being released too quickly... holy shit honestly.
yea you understood exactly my point. nice job!
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ToT-pG rivalry rekindled?
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There's no way anyone in a really top guild doesn't have their main spec weapon at 35, hell I have all 3 of my weapons at 35 or over right now.
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Updated my wowprogress profile to " Looking for guild, ready to transfer", got an answer from a top20 French guild in less than an hour. Wut.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On December 18 2016 08:10 Noocta wrote:
Updated my wowprogress profile to " Looking for guild, ready to transfer", got an answer from a top20 French guild in less than an hour. Wut.
wowprogress has a highly visible section for players that recently started looking for guilds, top guilds jump all over it
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First proper progress on Guarm, 14% on a fucked up try. I hate this dispelling bullshit, it's so hard to get it into people's heads that they actually have to move right first, before they can get a dispel and they shouldn't FUCKING STACK ON TOP OF THE HEALERS to spread flame lick to half the raid. God this headache.
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u havent experienced the frustration of mandatory spriests for taint dispel on helya yet
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Lucky us with 0 spriests then.
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you can join me and all 600-700 guilds or w/e it is now stuck on mythic helya waiting with baited breath for the nerf patch notes this week or next
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
540 ish that killed guarm but not helya :D
Timing is part of it, all three TOV bosses are top 3 hardest bosses so far and killing two before christams break was much easier than killing three.
I'm still working on Vengeance hidden appearance, killed daily demon guys every day for a while now. Maybe 70 times but i lost track a long time ago - was resetting to get a specific demon for part of that time (rumored higher droprates, or only drops from some of them..) but it was taking way too long so i just started killing all of them again.
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EPT
