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A Protoss redesign proposal

Forum Index > Closed
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RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
July 12 2015 13:17 GMT
#1
Hi all,

Introduction

I have been a big fan of SC since the nineties. In SC1 my favorite race was, by far, protoss. (obviously, its the race with the manlots)
Unfortunately I was never a fan of Protoss in SC2. At first it was hard to put a finger on it, the race just feels so 'jumpy' to me. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but for a new player its hard to say why.
After some years of experience playing the race and watching others play I came to the conclusion that this is because of an unfortunate design of Protoss units. They seem to be weak in direct engagements but strong in special situations.

So I gave it a lot of thought and I think I came up with an alternative design for the tech tree (and some of the units) that could improve the playing experience. I would like to know what you guys think about it. I will give some thoughts on individual units and reasons for changes.

The Problems
  • Core protoss armies tend to be rather cost inefficient. A terran or zerg bio ball can get superior trades when fighting protoss ground units head on. The reasons for this are:
    • Force fields are incredibly powerful when used correctly. To give the other races a chance when fighting protoss the basic protoss units need to be weaker to account for good force fields. This means good force fields have to be the norm and not the exception, otherwise protoss ground units underperform.
    • Warpgate tech allows protoss to warp in units close to the battlefield, even when attacking an enemy aggressively. This undermines the opponents defenders advantage. To give opponents a chance against protoss all ins protoss units have to be weakened.
    • Stalkers (an important part of the protoss core army) are rather fragile because of Blink. If Blink is used correctly Stalkers can live very long and outperform units of other races, but in a big engagement blinking all your Stalkers perfectly is only possible on the highest level and even then its not always done to its best effect.

  • Protoss is always seen as a gimmicky and all-in-ish race. The reasons for this is the unit design:
    • Blink Stalkers are very powerful when used correctly but rather weak if the micro is sub-par.
    • Dark Templar rushes are an all-or-nothing strategy which relies on a build-order win
    • Oracles are also an all-or-nothing harassment unit on lower levels of play. If the opponent is prepared its difficult to deal good enough damage to make the Oracle pay its worth. If the opponent is not prepared its gg.
    • Mothership Core is a bandaid hero unit with super powerful abilities designed for the pure reason of keeping protoss alive. (Photon Overcharge, Mass Recall)

  • Many people label protoss as an A-move race. The reasons are:
    • Zealots have very little micro potential. Their charge ability can not be actively microed.
    • Immortals are a unit with no micro potential, they can not even stutter step.
    • Colossus (an important part of WoL and HotS protoss deathballs) are pure A-move. The only micro with colossus is moving hurt or focused colossus to the back.
    • Void Rays become very powerful when in a big flock and then they are best used with A-move maneuvers.
    • Protoss late game relies on deathballs that move tightly packed for maximum efficiency.



What needs to happen
  • Improve the strength of protoss core army
  • Lessen the power of Warp Gate and make going Warp Gate a choice rather then a necessity
  • Reduce the impact of Sentry based all-ins
  • Give protoss better tools to hold expansions in the mid and late game
  • Change the role of the Mothership Core
  • Make Colossus based compositions less A-move and improve micro potential
  • Change protoss air units to give them all distinctive roles and useful functionality


Proposed Changes
  • Immortal
    • The Immortal is, right now, an expensive late game core unit with no interesting features besides its beefyness and powerful attack. Its position in the tech tree contradicts the design philosophy of SC where core units are low tech and high tech units are support, harass or siege units.
    • Move the Immortal to the Gateway at Cybernetics Core tech. Change its attack power, defense and cost appropriately.
    • Make the Immortal able to attack air units.
    • Give the Immortal better micro potential by changing the Damage Point and enabling Turret Tracking.
    • Lore-wise it makes much more sense to build the Immortal from the Gateway with Cyber-Core instead of the Robotics since the Immortal is actually a cyborg (like the Stalker and Dragoon) and not a robot.

  • Stalker
    • Now that the Immortal is at the Cyber-Core the role of the Stalker can change to differentiate it from the Immortal.
    • Buff the harassment role of the Stalker to make it a mid / late game harass and scout unit.
    • Increase the movement speed of the Stalker and make the Blink cooldown shorter.
    • Make the Stalker slightly more costly and move its tech to the Twilight Council to give that building an actual purpose past the upgrades
    • Remove the armored tag of the Stalker but decrease its life
    • The Stalker is now a very mobile harassment and defense unit. It can be used to move quickly from base to base, to counter air units and to harass the enemies base.

  • Sentry + Mothership Core
    • Since the early days of WoL the Sentry has been a highly debated unit. The Force Field ability is interesting but very powerful, some say too powerful. The other abilities of the Sentry are rather uninspired and boring.
    • The Mothership Core is in a similar position. Many consider this unit to be the pinnacle of bad design as a bandaid fix to early game aggression against fast expanding protoss's. The abilities of the MSC are incredibly powerful for such an inexpensive early game unit and to counteract this fact the unit became a hero.
    • Merge the Sentry and the MSC into one unit build from the Nexus with Cyber-Core requirement.
    • Remove the Photon Overcharge and Mass Recall abilities but keep the Force Field.
    • The new unit is no longer a hero but can be build on mass.
    • Since this unit is build from the Nexus it is hard to mass produce, it can not be warped in on the battlefield and you have to cut probe production to build it.
    • Since MSC is a slower moving unit with a much bigger collision size and for the reasons stated above a Force Field all-in becomes much easier to scout and easier to defend against.
    • The unit is still very useful to defend early harassment though. Other abilities, for example a shield recharge, could be added to improve the early defense even more.
    • Protoss also has many more Spellcaster units in HotS then any of the other races (MSC, Sentry, HT, Oracle / Ghost, Raven / Queen, Viper, Infestor). This change will even the number number of Spellcasters out a little bit.
    • Alternatively the Sentry might be moved to the Robotics bay to switch places with the Immortal. This also makes sense because the Sentry is actually a robot and not a cyborg.

  • Void Ray
    • In SC1 air units had the following roles: Anti-Air support (Valkyrie, Corsair, Devourer, Scourge), Fast moving harassment (Wraith, Scout, Mutalisk), Spellcaster (Science Vessel, Arbiter, Queen) and Capital Ship / Siege unit (Battlecruiser, Carrier, Guardian)
    • In SC2 most air units fit into these roles as well: Anti-Air (Viking, Phoenix, Corrupter), Harassment (Banshee, Oracle, Mutalisk), Spellcaster (Raven, Oracle, Viper), and Capital Ship / Siege unit (Battlecruiser, Carrier, Tempest, Brood Lord).
    • But the Void Ray doesnt fit into these categories, its an odd unit. It is not fast, its not better against air then against ground, it doesnt snipe workers incredibly quickly, its neither a siege nor capital ship unit. What the Void Ray really is is a Core unit but in the air.
    • This is an incredibly bad design since air units have many advantages because they are not held back by obstacles, force fields and meatshields. They are also harder to attack.
    • This puts the Void Ray into a very difficult balance position. A few are very weak, many are way too strong.
    • I propose to change the Void Ray into something else instead: Give it a position play role like the Siege Tank, give it the ability of the Lubricator Liberator from the LotV beta.
    • The Void Ray would suddenly become a unit that can be used to defend bases or to set up contains. This would, for one give it an actual role / purpose in the game, and make it fit better with the general principles of air units in SC.

  • Carrier
    • The Carrier was a very powerful and useful unit in SC1 but in SC2 it failed to live up to its former glory although it stayed relatively similar to its SC1 counterpart. (There are a few difference though which take away from the microability of the unit, see: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/489661-design-club-the-carrier)
    • The Carrier, as it is right now, does not really have a purpose in the game besides being a powerful piece of awe bringing glory. It is very fragile for its high cost and building time, it has relatively short attack range and the DPS depends on how many Interceptors are still alive.
    • Furthermore, anti-air in SC2 is very potent. Vikings and Corrupters, Marines, Stalkers and Hydralisks can deal with Carriers quickly and snipe them from the sky before they are able to escape.
    • I propose to increase the attack range of the Carrier greatly, at least to 12 if not even 15. This would make the Carrier a siege unit that can be used to chip away at the enemy army from afar but keep the expensive Carrier itself safe.
    • Now you might say: These kinds of units dont belong in SC, Swarm Hosts and Tempests (with the 22 range) were the worst that ever happened to the game. But remember, the Carrier has to use Interceptors to attack!
    • If you attack an enemy with a Carrier from a far away position you might lose all your Interceptors to anti-air. Each Interceptor costs you money and time to rebuild. Just blindly sending Interceptors to their doom will not bring you much good, you can not use this Carrier like the Swarm Host or Tempest.
    • This long range Carrier has to be used to snipe undefended bases or stray units without anti-air support. For example Siege Tanks, Swarm Hosts / Lurkers (in LotV), Dropships, etc.

  • Tempest
    • Since the Carrier is now a long range unit (a better one in my opinion since it is more interesting) the Tempest has to get another Role.
    • Give the Tempest a small AoE damage radius. This will make the Tempest useful against Mutalisk flocks, terran bio based compositions and mass zerglings attacking an expansion.
    • Reduce the attack range of the Tempest to a reasonable value like 7 or 8.
    • Increase the movement speed of the Tempest to be able to quickly defend one of your many bases or to harass enemy troops and fire one or two shots before the rest of your army moves in.

  • Oracle
    • The Oracle in HotS is a wild mix of early game harassment and support with one ability that should actually be an attack and abilities to spot enemy units and detect cloaked units.
    • Usually this unit is build to deal damage in the early game, sometimes as a proxy. If this unit doesnt end the game and is not sniped it is kept until the late game for its support abilities. However, players almost never build more then one or two of these unless they plan to cheese a terran player very early.
    • Protoss already has Dark Templars and Phoenix as harassment units and now Stalkers too. Instead of introducing the Oracle as yet another gimmicky harass option I would like this unit to become more of a support unit and instead see the Phoenix become better at its role of harassing enemies early on.
    • The Oracle may get the Mass Recall from the old MSC or from the WoL Mothership. It may also get a cloaking field ability to support mid and late game armies similar to the Arbiter from SC1.
    • Alternatively I would see an ability that, instead of crippling the enemy, protects allied units, or an ability that can be used either way to allow for more creative uses.
    • The ability I propose is an AoE disable ability that makes all units inside an area immune to damage but unable to attack as long as they stay inside the AoE. They can, however move out at any moment.
    • This ability would be great for zoning or for protecting expansions or allied units.
    • This ability also allows for counter micro of the opponent and makes battles last longer instead of ending them more quickly.

  • Colossus
    • This unit has been the dark horse of Protoss since WoL, especially in PvP where battles were decided by who has the most Colossus. The unit has rather little micro potential and is the icon of protoss deathballs with its ability to stand on top of other ground units.
    • Make this unit slower in both movement and attack speed but buff its attack damage and area of effect.
    • The effect of this change is to make each individual shot much more important. A shot that is wasted on a single unit has a much bigger negative impact. A Colossus that is microed to focus down clumped units in the middle of a ball will become much more valueable. Just remember, the auto AI of units will always attack the closest unit. The enemy could simply micro a marauder closer to the protoss army to tank the heavy AoE damage. A skillful protoss has to focus on the marines in the back.
    • Because the Colossus is slower it can be sniped more easily and protecting your Colossus becomes very important. Reinforcements during a battle are also much more difficult so that each individual Colossus you have in your army becomes more important.
    • Very slow moving Colossus would need to be transported within a Warp Prism in order to make a quick attack on the enemy or to retreat. Warp Prisms require micro to pick up and drop Colossus. Massing Colossus would become very difficult because you would need a Warp Prism for each Colossus in your army and soon the required APM would be too high to keep up.

  • Warp Gate
    • Move the Warp Gate upgrade up in the tech tree, perhaps to the Twilight Council or even the Templar Archives.
    • This way early aggression from protoss is much weaker because reinforcements have to travel to the enemy instead of being warped in close to the enemies base.
    • Because early aggression is weaker the actual protoss units can become stronger again to be cost effective.
    • In addition to that protoss has to actually tech towards Warp Gate. Going for Robo or Stargate play means that Gateway units will be used differently. This will diversify protoss play even more between different tech routes.
    • Furthermore Gateways can be buffed to train units faster then Warp Gates. It could be that Gateways can produce a big army quicker, but Warp Gates can build an army anywhere on the map. This way protoss has to make a choice or even mix things up with some Warp Gates (for harassment) and some Gateways to build his core army.
    • This introduces more decision making and macro options to the protoss race and allows players to further distinguish themselfs from their peers.



With these changes protoss would also have much more rounded tech choices. Now protoss could go either:
  • Twilight + Templar Archives + Dark Shrine
    • Gives Stalkers for Anti-Air and harassment
    • High Templars and Archons for AoE damage
    • Dark Templars for harassment
    • Warp Gate for quicker reinforcements and harassment

  • Robotics Bay + Robotics Support
    • Observers for support
    • Sentries for support (if we decide not to merge with MSC)
    • Gives Warp Prism for harassment
    • Colossus for AoE damage

  • Stargate + Fleet Beacon
    • Phoenix for harassment
    • Void Rays for position play and defense
    • Tempests for AoE damage
    • Carriers for siege
    • Oracles for support



(New tech tree as an image)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



I had given this much thought and I personally think these ideas would improve the protoss race immensely.
Of course I dont expect blizzard to implement all of these, I am fairly certain it will never happen, but I would still like to know what you guys think about it. Who knows, maybe one or another change might find its way into the game or a mod some day.

Thanks for the time.
Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
July 12 2015 16:03 GMT
#2
Also change the name of immortal to dragoon
Have a nice day ;)
Wampa_181st
Profile Joined April 2015
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-12 16:11:03
July 12 2015 16:10 GMT
#3
plz add murloc protoss we all know they are the same race

anyways, I enjoyed reading through the post. I can't say it would be an easy change to make for blizzard but fun to read regardless
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-12 18:50:00
July 12 2015 18:45 GMT
#4
I think we both agree on the Protoss problems, but not necessarily on details and solutions.

Immortal
I understand you move it to Warpgate tech as you see it as part of a core army, all-around unit. You then adjust it stats to fit the new role.
I see the Standard Immortal role more as a "siege breaker" - a unit that is capable to lead an attack and survive a fortified enemy position. Yes, you can mass this unit and be pretty effective with it, but it doesn't make it a core unit yet. Same thing could be said about a Siege Tank - you can mass it, but it is not an all-round unit - and you don't build it from barracks either (not low tech).
I think it could be a bit better at its role, while not being a hard-counter or has its own hard-counters. LotV is a step in right direction, but I don't think it needs an activated ability to achieve this goal.

Void Ray
The original design of a Void Ray was a "Capital Unit Burster", not an all-round core flying unit. It was supposed to be weak against mass units (marines, stalkers, hydralisks), while good against few beefy targets, such as Thors, Ultralisks, capital ships. It was achieved by having 3 levels of attack: the longer you focus on a target, the more damage you do. It didn't work out, and we got a gimmicky mechanism that was heavily abused: you charged VRs to 3rd level and then release onto an unsuspecting enemy, tearing through lesser units really quickly. In HotS this got replaced by a boring "do more damage" button against armored units.

To bring the role back I am considering bringing the old WoL mechanic with an important change: retargetting resets the attack level. The moment you pick a new target (or previous simply died) you have to charge up again. This would have the following consequences:
  • The damage output depends only on the time you can keep firing at the same target. Charging up elsewhere to tear over a group of marines won't work anymore.
  • Focus-fire with Void Rays may backfire: you kill your target faster, reducing the time when you are charged up at maximum level.
  • VRs no longer scale so well with their numbers. If you have a lot of them, they are bound to target similar enemies, reducing TTK and consequently time when charged up. The only case where I see massing VRs is viable is when the opponent is massing up beefy units.


Carrier
I think the biggest problem with Carrier is that it has the same counter as Colossus and the latter is simply better most of the time. However, if AoE cannot by a solution to your problem, Carrier has actually quite high single-target DPS of 26.7 which targets both air and ground.
The only real problems I see is its survivability and microability, which is partially addressed in mods such as Starbow.

Tempest
It is an air sieging unit. I think the general concept is fine, but it really needs tweaking to be a bit less situational. And probably less expensive.

Colossus
This unit deals a lot of damage, but is very fragile for air-to-air. I think the Colossus problem has to be attacked from multiple directions simultaneously, but making the unit slower is not necessairly one of them. Protoss, as it is now, already spends a lot of resources to just defend its Colossi. Making it slower will just make it more slow-moving-deathball thingy.

I would do the following:
  • Increase survivability to air attacks. This can be achieved indirectly, by overall nerfing air-to-air combat across all 3 races (one of the topics discussed in Strat Chat #1). When Colossi can survive more, Protoss is no longer forced to babysit that damn thing.
  • If, at the same time, we would also overall buff ground-to-air attacks, it would make Colossi more vulnerable from units to which it can actually shoot back (looking at Thor for example).
  • Change the attack pattern. My current thought is to make the beam move parallel to the viewing vector of Colossus, rather than perpendicularly. This will help Colossus fighting big clumped up armies, with multiple rows of enemies moving towards its direction. However, when an enemy establishes a good, single-row concave with all units shooting at you, Colossus becomes that much weaker. The response may involve stepping back a bit to destroy the concave and clump the enemy to which he can react.... you know... more positional micro.... It would also benefit flanking Colossus hitting a row of enemies from a side.

[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-12 18:53:49
July 12 2015 18:52 GMT
#5
I don't mean to be rude, but I hope you had fun making this because SC2 will never change this drastically (and rightfully-so). The game is also far too complex for you to completely change an entire race and expect to have a good idea how it will play out, unless you actually implement it and have real progamers play with good money on the line.
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
July 12 2015 18:57 GMT
#6
RoomOfMush is actually implementing his ideas in his C2 CustomCraft. I am also implementing my stuff in project "Starcraft Improved". Discussion about both mods can be found here on TL forums. There is more than mere talking in our posts
I agree however, that getting progamers, or any players for that matter, will be hard if mod is not good - and to make it good, you need people to test it first (chicken and egg problem). But we are trying!
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
LongShot27
Profile Joined May 2013
United States2084 Posts
July 12 2015 19:03 GMT
#7
That was....have you ever played?

"Protoss units are cost inefficient" Protoss units are designed to be that way, the race is designed to have very expesive very technical high power units. Terran is designed to be cost efficient, Zerg is designed to have tons of throw away units and Protoss is the opposite of this.

"Gimmicky and all in" All the races are gimmicky in there own way, and Protoss is no more all in than any other race. The chief complaint is the opposite. That Protoss relies too much on a death ball, it might be somewhat gimmicky but it definetly not all in.

And if you think protoss is an a move race you are the definition of ignorant. Force fields, blinking during engagements, colossus micro in fights, actually knowing where to position your zealots, especially if they don't have charge.

I can't begin to understand what made you think these things. Protoss has problems, just like zerg and terran, what you have said however are not them.
If all men were created equal there would be no reason to declare it.
BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
July 12 2015 19:11 GMT
#8
Have you ever played? I have seen so many complaints about Protoss going all-in, in one way or another - you really did not? Deathball is also being addressed here.
Just because Protoss are designed to be cost inefficient, it does not mean that it is a good design.
Finally, your post is completely non-constructive.
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
July 12 2015 19:14 GMT
#9
Please take game design suggestions to Battle.net.
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
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