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Ukraine Crisis - Page 97

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 01 2014 01:16 GMT
#1921
“We are here for your safety"


That sounds almost as bad as Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf back in his glorious days.
On track to MA1950A.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 01 2014 01:20 GMT
#1922
So can the mods explain to me why Crimean crisis does not deserve it's own thread? This is the beginning of something that can become the biggest conflict in Europe since Yugoslavia.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=444870
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 01 2014 01:24 GMT
#1923
Because it would be easier to just change the title of this one, since this has all parties involved. The arguments/debates etc in a new thread would be no different from what we have here - would only add confusion.

Although, as i said, i'd agree if you'd ask for a change of the title.
On track to MA1950A.
SilentchiLL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany1405 Posts
March 01 2014 01:25 GMT
#1924
On March 01 2014 10:20 Cheerio wrote:
So can the mods explain to me why Crimean crisis does not deserve it's own thread? This is the beginning of something that can become the biggest conflict in Europe since Yugoslavia.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=444870


Maybe we just need to wait until the whole thing has become a bit more independant from the whole Euromaidan issue.
possum, sed nolo - Real men play random. ___ "Who the fuck is Kyle?!" C*****EX
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 01:42:44
March 01 2014 01:38 GMT
#1925
On March 01 2014 09:37 zeonmx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 07:44 mijagi182 wrote:
On March 01 2014 06:50 Makro wrote:
On March 01 2014 05:29 mijagi182 wrote:
On March 01 2014 01:53 Makro wrote:
starting a nuclear war for ukraine (no offense) seems to be highly over exagerated, i don't think leaders (more, their advisor) are that stupid


this is probably a resonable stance, but given your location it gets kind of familiar ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig?

well, we all know how it ended back then.


throwing things randomly like this without taking the historical context is a cheap move from you


and i think throwing "nuclear war" at this point was... well, lets say premature. tbh i am more interested in where you put the line, when starting it would be ok. Like russians invading Paris or what?

People were talking about "nuclear war" when Russia invaded Gergia, too.

People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.

first off all russia were not the agressors and secondly they weren't far off.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
zeonmx
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 01:44:02
March 01 2014 01:42 GMT
#1926
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Actually I don't. And there is no reason for Russia to bring up nukes every time they bring up military. That is some cold-war era stuck logic. This is just Putin's plan of consolidating his power.

And no, Bush and Putin are two completely different animals. For one thing, Putin isn't someone else's bitch/puppet, unlike Bush. Bush lacks any influence to be a dick, unlike Putin.
LaNague
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany9118 Posts
March 01 2014 01:43 GMT
#1927
noone is nuking anything, russia even removed ammo from most of those "covert" army guys just to not have any risk of them firing in a heated situation.


and they certainly wont start a war with EU, war against germany, france AND UK is gg air superiority.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 01 2014 01:53 GMT
#1928
On March 01 2014 10:42 zeonmx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Actually I don't. And there is no reason for Russia to bring up nukes every time they bring up military. That is some cold-war era stuck logic. This is just Putin's plan of consolidating his power.

And no, Bush and Putin are two completely different animals. For one thing, Putin isn't someone else's bitch/puppet, unlike Bush. Bush lacks any influence to be a dick, unlike Putin.


That's why i said that even bush was more reasonable. Putin doesn't have "boundaries" other than those he imposes on himself.

The reason russias nukes come up everytime is because other than the USs nuclear arsenal, they are a real threat. Your last paragraph plays a big role in that.
On track to MA1950A.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 01:57:51
March 01 2014 01:54 GMT
#1929
On March 01 2014 10:43 LaNague wrote:
noone is nuking anything, russia even removed ammo from most of those "covert" army guys just to not have any risk of them firing in a heated situation.


and they certainly wont start a war with EU, war against germany, france AND UK is gg air superiority.


And vs EU & America is gg no re. However, there is still a fear of nuclear bombs. For some reason, I don't trust Russia to be wise. They're still not cured from the USSR era. Unfortunately, many ex-communist countries aren't... yet. I know there is democracy officially, but some of the ruling politicians used to be communist, and even though they claim to be democrats now, they still don't act like such in the genuine sense.
zeonmx
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 01:56:49
March 01 2014 01:55 GMT
#1930
On March 01 2014 10:53 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 10:42 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Actually I don't. And there is no reason for Russia to bring up nukes every time they bring up military. That is some cold-war era stuck logic. This is just Putin's plan of consolidating his power.

And no, Bush and Putin are two completely different animals. For one thing, Putin isn't someone else's bitch/puppet, unlike Bush. Bush lacks any influence to be a dick, unlike Putin.


That's why i said that even bush was more reasonable. Putin doesn't have "boundaries" other than those he imposes on himself.

The reason russias nukes come up everytime is because other than the USs nuclear arsenal, they are a real threat. Your last paragraph plays a big role in that.

So is China. But it's always the Ruskies when the word "nuke" shows up. Russia is just being Russia. They don't want a pro-west country right in front of their doorstep. And they aren't idiots to use nukes especially when their economy has been in a great standing so far. People are too ignorant about these facts.

Oh and btw, I take back about what I said Bush. He's just about radical and reactionary as Putin. Declaring two wars at the same time and all and sending his own country's economy to the toilet.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 01 2014 01:58 GMT
#1931
On March 01 2014 10:55 zeonmx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 10:53 m4ini wrote:
On March 01 2014 10:42 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Actually I don't. And there is no reason for Russia to bring up nukes every time they bring up military. That is some cold-war era stuck logic. This is just Putin's plan of consolidating his power.

And no, Bush and Putin are two completely different animals. For one thing, Putin isn't someone else's bitch/puppet, unlike Bush. Bush lacks any influence to be a dick, unlike Putin.


That's why i said that even bush was more reasonable. Putin doesn't have "boundaries" other than those he imposes on himself.

The reason russias nukes come up everytime is because other than the USs nuclear arsenal, they are a real threat. Your last paragraph plays a big role in that.

So is China. But it's always the Ruskies when the word "nuke" shows up. Russia is just being Russia. They don't want a pro-west country right in front of their doorstep. And they aren't idiots to use nukes especially when their economy has been in a great standing so far. People are too ignorant about these facts.

China obviously has much better PR people than Russians do.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 02:03:52
March 01 2014 02:03 GMT
#1932
In some situations during the Cold War you could say that the USSR was more responsible in trying to avoid using nukes so I don't get the paranoia. I highly doubt any of the major 1st or 2nd world countries that have nukes would ever use them.
Never Knows Best.
Feartheguru
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1334 Posts
March 01 2014 02:04 GMT
#1933
On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
In the long run Ukraine will get better results from calling UN and NATO even though Russia will try and smack that down. I can't believe that Putin is naive enough to think that this is a good idea. Btw. both Russia proper and the Black Sea fleet are denying any responsibility even though the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Guess they are worried their fleet basing rights in Sevastopol is threatened by Ukraines leaders, but their international reputation will be torn even further... Yes, Crimea is mostly non-ukrainian and yes, they are seeking even further authonomy, but it is not Russias to take back!


Quoting this just to laugh in your face when it becomes clear how wrong you are at the end of this. So much wrong I can't even decide where to start.

1) The West promotes national self-determination through referendums all over the world, just not when it isn't convenient for them.

2) When an American friendly state in it's backyard faces a revolt (Guatemala, Panama, Chile is even more blatant than this,Cuba etc etc etc... list is too long why bother), army goes in high 5 bros job well done. When Russia faces the same situation in it's backyard, they can't even go into just the region with their ethical majority, imperialist commies! Hypocrisy at its finest.

3) UN cannot do anything when Russia is one of the permanent members of it's security council, even a verbal condemnation will be vetoed (This point alone shows how little you know)

4) NATO isn't going in to save Ukraine, don't delude yourself

5) Crimea will atleast become defacto independent through this (maybe annexation), wait and see who is the naive one.

6) Geopolitics isn't a middle school play ground, countries don't go "omg, you're so nice, we should be friends (lol)". Russia is extremely antagonized in the West already, there is virtually no foreign investment, Russia does not give a shit how this makes them look to the West. America has a terrible reputation in most of the world, does it care?

Random aside, going around the world toting democracy while supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government (albeit corrupt) makes me incredibly incredibly sad. Second only to how easily people like you are mislead.
Don't sweat the petty stuff, don't pet the sweaty stuff.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 01 2014 02:05 GMT
#1934
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Putin is much more reasonable than Bush. He plays the diplomatic game very reasonably to achieve his goals. Anyone who thinks Putin/Russia would use nukes with less provocation than US is just completely off.
zeonmx
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 02:09:53
March 01 2014 02:08 GMT
#1935
On March 01 2014 11:04 Feartheguru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
In the long run Ukraine will get better results from calling UN and NATO even though Russia will try and smack that down. I can't believe that Putin is naive enough to think that this is a good idea. Btw. both Russia proper and the Black Sea fleet are denying any responsibility even though the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Guess they are worried their fleet basing rights in Sevastopol is threatened by Ukraines leaders, but their international reputation will be torn even further... Yes, Crimea is mostly non-ukrainian and yes, they are seeking even further authonomy, but it is not Russias to take back!


Quoting this just to laugh in your face when it becomes clear how wrong you are at the end of this. So much wrong I can't even decide where to start.

1) The West promotes national self-determination through referendums all over the world, just not when it isn't convenient for them.

2) When an American friendly state in it's backyard faces a revolt (Guatemala, Panama, Chile is even more blatant than this,Cuba etc etc etc... list is too long why bother), army goes in high 5 bros job well done. When Russia faces the same situation in it's backyard, they can't even go into just the region with their ethical majority, imperialist commies! Hypocrisy at its finest.

3) UN cannot do anything when Russia is one of the permanent members of it's security council, even a verbal condemnation will be vetoed (This point alone shows how little you know)

4) NATO isn't going in to save Ukraine, don't delude yourself

5) Crimea will atleast become defacto independent through this (maybe annexation), wait and see who is the naive one.

6) Geopolitics isn't a middle school play ground, countries don't go "omg, you're so nice, we should be friends (lol)". Russia is extremely antagonized in the West already, there is virtually no foreign investment, Russia does not give a shit how this makes them look to the West. America has a terrible reputation in most of the world, does it care?

Random aside, going around the world toting democracy while supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government (albeit corrupt) makes me incredibly incredibly sad. Second only to how easily people like you are mislead.

Thank you for this post. It's about time when people realizes Russia is basically doing samething what America has been doing in past decades in South America and various other regions. Remember Panama? Not a single countries in the west gave a shit when Panama was legitimately invaded by USA.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-01 02:12:20
March 01 2014 02:11 GMT
#1936
On March 01 2014 11:03 Slaughter wrote:
In some situations during the Cold War you could say that the USSR was more responsible in trying to avoid using nukes so I don't get the paranoia. I highly doubt any of the major 1st or 2nd world countries that have nukes would ever use them.


So is this responsible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis#Soviet_deployment_of_missiles_in_Cuba_.28Operation_Anadyr.29

There isn't "more" or "less" in responsibility when we walk about using nukes. And yes, I know the US has successfully used nukes which still doesn't make Russia look clean.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
March 01 2014 02:11 GMT
#1937
On March 01 2014 11:08 zeonmx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 11:04 Feartheguru wrote:
On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
In the long run Ukraine will get better results from calling UN and NATO even though Russia will try and smack that down. I can't believe that Putin is naive enough to think that this is a good idea. Btw. both Russia proper and the Black Sea fleet are denying any responsibility even though the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Guess they are worried their fleet basing rights in Sevastopol is threatened by Ukraines leaders, but their international reputation will be torn even further... Yes, Crimea is mostly non-ukrainian and yes, they are seeking even further authonomy, but it is not Russias to take back!


Quoting this just to laugh in your face when it becomes clear how wrong you are at the end of this. So much wrong I can't even decide where to start.

1) The West promotes national self-determination through referendums all over the world, just not when it isn't convenient for them.

2) When an American friendly state in it's backyard faces a revolt (Guatemala, Panama, Chile is even more blatant than this,Cuba etc etc etc... list is too long why bother), army goes in high 5 bros job well done. When Russia faces the same situation in it's backyard, they can't even go into just the region with their ethical majority, imperialist commies! Hypocrisy at its finest.

3) UN cannot do anything when Russia is one of the permanent members of it's security council, even a verbal condemnation will be vetoed (This point alone shows how little you know)

4) NATO isn't going in to save Ukraine, don't delude yourself

5) Crimea will atleast become defacto independent through this (maybe annexation), wait and see who is the naive one.

6) Geopolitics isn't a middle school play ground, countries don't go "omg, you're so nice, we should be friends (lol)". Russia is extremely antagonized in the West already, there is virtually no foreign investment, Russia does not give a shit how this makes them look to the West. America has a terrible reputation in most of the world, does it care?

Random aside, going around the world toting democracy while supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government (albeit corrupt) makes me incredibly incredibly sad. Second only to how easily people like you are mislead.

Thank you for this post. It's about time when people realizes Russia is basically doing samething what America has been doing in past decades in South America and various other regions. Remember Panama? Not a single countries in the west gave a shit when Panama was legitimately invaded by USA.
never thought Id see the day when someone defends Manuel Noriega yet here we are.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 01 2014 02:12 GMT
#1938
On March 01 2014 11:08 zeonmx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 11:04 Feartheguru wrote:
On February 28 2014 21:05 radiatoren wrote:
In the long run Ukraine will get better results from calling UN and NATO even though Russia will try and smack that down. I can't believe that Putin is naive enough to think that this is a good idea. Btw. both Russia proper and the Black Sea fleet are denying any responsibility even though the people doing this are clearly Russian and military. Guess they are worried their fleet basing rights in Sevastopol is threatened by Ukraines leaders, but their international reputation will be torn even further... Yes, Crimea is mostly non-ukrainian and yes, they are seeking even further authonomy, but it is not Russias to take back!


Quoting this just to laugh in your face when it becomes clear how wrong you are at the end of this. So much wrong I can't even decide where to start.

1) The West promotes national self-determination through referendums all over the world, just not when it isn't convenient for them.

2) When an American friendly state in it's backyard faces a revolt (Guatemala, Panama, Chile is even more blatant than this,Cuba etc etc etc... list is too long why bother), army goes in high 5 bros job well done. When Russia faces the same situation in it's backyard, they can't even go into just the region with their ethical majority, imperialist commies! Hypocrisy at its finest.

3) UN cannot do anything when Russia is one of the permanent members of it's security council, even a verbal condemnation will be vetoed (This point alone shows how little you know)

4) NATO isn't going in to save Ukraine, don't delude yourself

5) Crimea will atleast become defacto independent through this (maybe annexation), wait and see who is the naive one.

6) Geopolitics isn't a middle school play ground, countries don't go "omg, you're so nice, we should be friends (lol)". Russia is extremely antagonized in the West already, there is virtually no foreign investment, Russia does not give a shit how this makes them look to the West. America has a terrible reputation in most of the world, does it care?

Random aside, going around the world toting democracy while supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected government (albeit corrupt) makes me incredibly incredibly sad. Second only to how easily people like you are mislead.

Thank you for this post. It's about time when people realizes Russia is basically doing samething what America has been doing in past decades in South America and various other regions. Remember Panama? Not a single countries in the west gave a shit when Panama was legitimately invaded by USA.


I vividly remember differently. In what country did you live back in that day?
On track to MA1950A.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 01 2014 02:13 GMT
#1939
On March 01 2014 10:53 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2014 10:42 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:55 m4ini wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:48 zeonmx wrote:
On March 01 2014 09:44 m4ini wrote:
People just loves to bring out the words "nuclear war" in every Russia-related military/incidents/crisis.


Might have to do with the opinion that putin would not hesitate for a second to use his arsenal if needed.

You mean the very same conventional arsenal that US has been pulling out on Middle Eastern affairs for past decades or so? Fair enough.


We both know that i wasn't talking about that. What i do know is that my personal enviroment wasn't talking about nuclear wars every time the US went ham on something (stupidity etc, hipocrisis, lies, yes, but not nuclear threats). With russia they do, for the simple fact that even bush seemed alot more reasonable than putin.

Actually I don't. And there is no reason for Russia to bring up nukes every time they bring up military. That is some cold-war era stuck logic. This is just Putin's plan of consolidating his power.

And no, Bush and Putin are two completely different animals. For one thing, Putin isn't someone else's bitch/puppet, unlike Bush. Bush lacks any influence to be a dick, unlike Putin.


That's why i said that even bush was more reasonable. Putin doesn't have "boundaries" other than those he imposes on himself.

The reason russias nukes come up everytime is because other than the USs nuclear arsenal, they are a real threat. Your last paragraph plays a big role in that.

Of course Putin has boundaries. The ones that real world puts on him. He is not stupid and definitely does not want to lose his power and life, which is exactly what using nukes would mean. You are completely off if you think he is more likely to use nukes than US.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 01 2014 02:14 GMT
#1940
Putin won't use nukes; I may not like his lack of morals, but he's pretty clearly a very competent and controlled person. There's no reason to use nukes, so he won't use nukes.

Russia could be a bit more chill about this; but frankly, I'm worried about a civil war occurring in Ukraine with crowds going out of control, and I'd feel safer if troops from multiple sides were in Ukraine to ensure order. Civil wars can spread, so keeping a lid on things is helpful.
So I say Russia and the west make an agreement about letting some peacekeeping forces in to maintain order while the mess is sorted out; and if Crimea wants to vote to rejoin Russia, that's fine.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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