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Tensions are flaring up elsewhere as well now:
Slavyansk: Servicemen of 95th Detached Airborne Brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces repel attacks of armed extremistsFriday, May 2. SLAVYANSK – As of 21.30, near Slavyansk a group of armed extremists attacked with small arms the servicemen of the 95th Detached Airborne Brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Currently, it is known that two Ukrainian servicemen are killed. In the afternoon, the extremists tried to prevent tasks accomplishment by servicemen by blocking the bridge. They used the standard tactics of terroristic groups – involvement of local population, including women, in blocking. Source
Some of the comments on the livestreams are /facepalm worthy honestly; "Russian people are dying so it is Russia's business". Time for another faux-Russians-are-dying-time-to-rescue-them-evil-nazis justification like Crimea I guess...?
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On May 03 2014 04:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 22:41 radiatoren wrote:On May 02 2014 22:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 02 2014 22:11 Acertos wrote:On May 02 2014 21:14 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 02 2014 19:45 Acertos wrote:On May 02 2014 19:30 Feartheguru wrote:On May 02 2014 19:14 mdb wrote:
This non stop talking about nazis and faschists is getting ridiculous. Exactly, it's as if people in this thread thing Putin calling the maideners nazis automatically is the key to invalidating Russia's actions. There's no different between this and Kerry calling all the maideners peaceful protesters and all the anti-maideners terrorists, standard propaganda. No it's different because it's to a different degree. Look at that fucking happy piece of shit. I hope the recession will hit Russia hard, maybe after that there will be a government change in Russia. Fucking amazing that in the 21st century we are still plagued by bastards like Putin. What does this guy have anything to do with Putin again? This guy says help is coming and the help he is talking about is the help of Putin's Russia. The insurgents have been saying that for weeks. Then they bitch about how Russia refuses to help them. It seems that it's little more than a morale thing. I think it's quite evident Putin couldn't give a rat's ass about these ragtag bandits. If and when Russia rolls in the armor, I am without a doubt it won't be for the sake of the insurgents, just saying. I would not be necessarily angry with Putin with this specific matter. I would be angry with these guys for unintentionally giving Putin a wonderful hand of cards. It is clear that Putin is playing chess while the insurgents are playing tic-tac-toe. I think Putin is starting to feel the pressure politically from the Duma to move into eastern Ukraine and I think he is starting to feel the scorched earth rhetorics of the media mobilizing that sentiment a bit too much, a bit too fast. That Russia should need to intervene would not be Putins favourite situation since it will incur actual trade sanctions from Europe and international condemnation. I think Putin had hoped Ukraines fear of Russian intervention would be enough to deter a reaction to the insurgents, but now he is forced to act in some way. Calling the Geneva convention dead is stating the obvious. The next move is still on Putin and he is pretty heavily pinned. Putin can either invade officially or stall by starting a new round of negotiations. It obviously depends on the polical climate and Putins overall strategy, but officially moving into Ukraine is not going to be an easy choice. Too late. Now with violence in Odessa, I think stalling for more talks is off the table. Not that talks were an option anyways. The US is seriously pushing the Ukrainian government to crush the dissidents, and the Russians made a resolute stand that such action will be dealt with. Where is room for talks when you have foreign countries pulling chains in Ukraine? :S Putin has learned well from Uncle Sam. Still, I thought he could be more creative than this at least. Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 03:57 radiatoren wrote:.The plot thickens even further: Obama was speaking to reporters at the White House after talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who also supported a move to wider sanctions and said the European Union and the United States would continue to work in concert on the issue.
"The next step is going to be a broader-based sectoral sanctions regime," Obama said. Merkel agreed, saying that May 25 was a critical date and "we will see to it that elections can take place." ReutersThat is a further time pressure on Putin, but to what avail is the question? So far his government has been adamant in keeping the story consistent and never critizising the actions of the insurgents and changing tone could be seen as weakness in Russias domestic environment. It gets harder and harder to see a satisfactory solution for all parts that doesn't lead to a very dark place. Especially if Russia insists on international UN peacekeeping being off the table. Btw. things start to really heat up in UN. Churkin accusing "the west" of interfering, citing insurgents for hearing english on the comms during the Ukrainian offensive and this one: "The US and EU take great responsibility practically cutting all paths to resolve the crisis peacefully," (Russian media shows Churkin and Ban Ki-Moon, you have to wonder if there are other opinions among the people being called out? Dishonest coverage?) This sounds like a step in a plan. Just not sure what the plan is. Implicating US and EU as conspirators with Ukraine sounds at best like a domestic political justification, but it is only reinforcing Merkel and Obamas diagnosis of economic isolation as a necessity. Russia is indeed themself practically cutting all paths to resolve the crisis peacefully by going further down that line of unbending indignation at everyones actions but their own and the insurgents... Like Kerry, Obama is stating obvious falsehoods and making action off of that. All reports shows these "groups" are certainly not "Russian-backed". These "groups" cannot stop bitching about how Russia doesn't even back them. However, the US's goal is to oppose Russia. We will go to any length to justify punishing Russia because we're losing in our own interests in Ukraine, which we thought was a shoe-in with Maidan, we're losing the tug-of-war without Russia having to lift a finger following Crimea, and we'd do it no matter the circumstances, just because Russia is "winning" in some way or another here. I bet there could be wholesale massacres by the Kievan government, and we'd still support them as long as they follow in our line in opposing Russia. No one is on Ukraine's side, certainly not the US either. Everyone is simply on the side of their political/strategic interests. Ukraine is caught in the crossfire. Jesus, I can only imagine how the US is going to deal with China threatening US interests in the years to come. Sanctions aren't exactly going to work on them.
Talks were an option earlier if Russia wanted to deescalate to a point where they could defend not moving into Ukraine without completely loosing face (it would still entail a lot of namecalling and preachings). Now that ship is sinking fast.
Sanctions are not going to work on the current situation either if Russia are as set on going the way they are moving.
It is still uncertain if Russia has indeed supported the rebels in any way (gasoline specifically doesn't seem like a thing they have provided), but stating they haven't in any way is not making that any less true than "the west" supporting the "anti-terror operations" (verbally both support their side). You have to figure where these "peaceful protesters" got their anti-air equipment from. I don't suppose they are stocked in the local ma and pa shop.
I would guess these politicians have better sources than we do. Merkel and Obama were meant to talk NSA after all!
As much as USA is far out of line rhetorically and potentially as morally corrupt, Merkel is german and Germany has been relatively cautious.
What we are seeing is a situation where the rhetorical escalation is reaching a crescendo. Where us vs them is becoming more Russia vs the world than anything truely shattering the world order. Now they are done talking to the public. Actions are most likely to follow unless it ends in a closed door meeting and slowly cools down from there.
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That's what happens when nationalism is used: hatred grows and it comes down to shit like this.
Seing the reports it doesn't even seem like the perpetrators were from the far-right militias. Like the poster above said, people didn't start throwing monotov at the building for nothing, it was mob vs mob.
Now the most horrible thing is that the police did nothing, there is seriously a problem about it. Just because some policemen don't want to take sides, it doesn't mean that they should do nothing. We have an example here and it was the same in the East.
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On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow.
This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire.
It was an act of savage barbarism.
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On May 03 2014 05:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow. This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire. It was an act of savage barbarism.
If that is a pen this guy is holding, then I get your joke.
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On May 03 2014 05:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow. This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire. It was an act of savage barbarism.
"to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks"
The argument of "protecting itself" is complete bullshit, the police would still be working if the administration buildings weren't taken and the protests could take place in the street, peacefully, like it was at Maidan before the bloodshed.
You see that's one of the problem. Why the fuck did pro-Russians had the control of that union building. They should have been kicked out of there a while ago. The forms of the anti-maidan protests are just retarded: why not manifest in the streets, why the need to seize buildings if not because it's only a minority that want independence and the will to seize power by force.
edit: Also the guy that was shot and died during the clash was a pro-ukraine, it might be the reason for the escalation.
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Yes I'm sure he just stood there and took a nice picture for the newspaper. I mean, its not like he has no making to show that he is with the anti-maidan movement, I'm sure if the twitter account of a paid shill says he is that must mean its true!
How fucking low people stoop to justify murder is despicable. There were a million pictures of maidan protesters and thugs with fire-arms, I didn't see you justifying people's deaths because of that
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On May 03 2014 05:25 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 05:10 zeo wrote:On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow. This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire. It was an act of savage barbarism. "to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks" The argument of "protecting itself" is complete bullshit, the police would still be working if the administration buildings weren't taken and the protests could take place in the street, peacefully, like it was at Maidan before the bloodshed. You see that's one of the problem. Why the fuck did pro-Russians had the control of that union building. They should have been kicked out of there a while ago. The forms of the anti-maidan protests are just retarded: why not manifest in the streets, why the need to seize buildings if not because it's only a minority that want independence and the will to seize power by force.
Why did euromaidan seize government building? Would you have said the same thing if forces loyal to Yanukovych had trapped and set fire to 40 people?
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Can everybody please stop feeding the troll and ignore him? This is really derailing the thread, and nothing you say or any amount of facts will get him out of his strange world.
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On May 03 2014 05:28 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 05:25 Acertos wrote:On May 03 2014 05:10 zeo wrote:On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow. This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire. It was an act of savage barbarism. "to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks" The argument of "protecting itself" is complete bullshit, the police would still be working if the administration buildings weren't taken and the protests could take place in the street, peacefully, like it was at Maidan before the bloodshed. You see that's one of the problem. Why the fuck did pro-Russians had the control of that union building. They should have been kicked out of there a while ago. The forms of the anti-maidan protests are just retarded: why not manifest in the streets, why the need to seize buildings if not because it's only a minority that want independence and the will to seize power by force. Why did euromaidan seize government building? Would you have said the same thing if forces loyal to Yanukovych had trapped and set fire to 40 people?
It was different, euromaidan was huge and seized the building out of anger after people started to get shot.
If an extremely small group of euromaidan activists had seized an administration building illegally and some people put fire to it I would have said the same. The guys that would have killed them would be horrible but seizing the building would have still been stupid.
I'm not trying to justify deaths or undermine the crimes committed by the pro-ukraine but just saying that instead of barricading oneself in a state building, dispersing would have been wiser, and all the more when the police doesn't do anything.
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On May 03 2014 05:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 04:59 Rowrin wrote:
Not sure what is going on but sounds like the mob that tried to take over the city got ambushed by another angry mob. It's unfortunate that they got burned alive, but when you overthrow a local government and basically instate mob rule, you kinda get what you sow. This is of course not what happened. Radical nationalists and football hooligans attacked a part of the city where the anti-maidan activists were gathering signatures for the referendum. The people fled to the trade building that had been under their control for months to barricade themselves and protect from future attacks. The hooligans seized this opportunity and set fire to the building, they also fought off anyone coming to extinguish the fire. It was an act of savage barbarism.
Ofc it's not true to you (even tho if it would be true this time). Why you even write posts here when everyone knows your opinion already. It's always same. Anti-eu, anti-us, anti-west, anti-euromaiden. Everything bad is coming from them. You have been proven wrong so many times during this thread still you keep writing here. You have had valid points also, I agree but only few.
I don't actually even understand anymore why people come here and talk...
Totaly different opinions clashes, false news by both sides and nobody of us realy knows what is happening. Just relying on news and what others say you.
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What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine.
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On May 03 2014 05:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine.
Idk, I think mostly "west" (which nations are "west" in this case?) just wants to limit power of Putin/russia. Idk if usa/european union actually cares about Ukraine.
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Horrible pictures...horrible
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On May 03 2014 05:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine.
The ones who live in the EU but were part of Soviet Empire care, which is why they are so active in trying to push something through to help Ukraine but they are relatively small and poor. The ones who directly depend on Russia for money -- like the money launderers of Cyprus or London or the Germany industrial groups -- only care because they are worried about loses economically, which is why Schroeder was in St. Petersburg partying with Putin. The ones who hate America, think its all an evil empire of genius plotters who started this whole process passively cheer for Putin, most arent stupid enough to embrace him but instead view his role as 'punishment' of the 'arrogant' neo cons. The ones who support far right, anti-EU causes love this because here you have a country being 'shown' what it means to turn to EU instead of whatever alternative world systems they fantasize about -- glorious Euroasian Union or Orthodox brotherhood or Slavic bullshit and big masculine Putin is their image of the hero-leader they would like to impose on their own countries to rid them of gay fascism or whatever.
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On May 03 2014 06:04 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Horrible pictures...horrible
The livestream showed that all of the bodies that had choked from gas had Ukrainian passports. Most of them were from Odessa.
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On May 03 2014 06:04 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 05:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine. Idk, I think mostly "west" (which nations are "west" in this case?) just wants to limit power of Putin/russia. Idk if usa/european union actually cares about Ukraine.
Am considering Finland, Sweden and Norway as west also, dunno why, although geographicly u're not the actual west  usa cares only about limiting russia's power, probably with GB and Germany, What gonna happen to our citizens? I highly doubt anyone cares, even if we gonna die trying to stop Russia, Obama/Merkel gonna add some more extra sanctions for example
There is a big difference between words and actions.
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On May 03 2014 05:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine.
Do the people in the west care? More or less yes. Ofc your far away from us but no one deserves what is happening to your country.
The politicians however.. Ukraine isn't going to benefit the EU, just cost it. They probably want to intervene but Russia is being aggressive and no one has the balls to tell Putin to back off. A lot of Europe relies on Russia for its gas and there not willing to risk that or WW3 over you.
It sucks but such is the world today it seems 
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On May 03 2014 06:10 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2014 06:04 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On May 03 2014 05:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
What happened in Odessa today is a real tragedy. If Russia going to destabilize the inner situation in our country even further, there will be no country at all.
On the other hand we got elder generations who really belives in trash, simply they thinks Putin cares about them, Putin gonna protect them from junta, he will rise average life level and salaries.
U guys in west, do u seriously care about us? Sanctions? I've been watching this sanctions changing from one to other since Crimea accident, I doubt it gonna change something with Putin.
Nothing personal against russian people, they are just the same as we here, some of them also brainwashed, and seriously brainwashed, inspired by nationalism and by returning their "historical" lands from nazis Ukraine. Idk, I think mostly "west" (which nations are "west" in this case?) just wants to limit power of Putin/russia. Idk if usa/european union actually cares about Ukraine. Am considering Finland, Sweden and Norway as west also, dunno why, although geographicly u're not the actual west usa cares only about limiting russia's power, probably with GB and Germany, What gonna happen to our citizens? I highly doubt anyone cares, even if we gonna die trying to stop Russia, Obama/Merkel gonna add some more extra sanctions for example There is a big difference between words and actions.
Yes Finland is western country. But so many times you hear, west thinks this and that even tho there are quite different opinions in western countries. Only biggest ones get to be heard (US, UK, FR and GER) mostly.
And back to question that do west care.
I do, and I know that most people do. But goverments mostly think about money and russia instead of ukrainian people.
Like finnish goverment is agaisnt sanctions. This crisis have already hurt quite lot finnish economy and is finnish goverment willing to sacrifice "good" relationship to help situation in ukraine?
Russia is third biggest trade partner for Finland
Finland exported 5.4€ billion to russia (in different products)
Russia imported about 10.5€ billion to Finland (84% of that is energy products)
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EPT
