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On April 18 2014 10:47 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +the false story you posted it boiled down to a simple arithmetic error, as was pointed out in the reddit post. luckily addition and subtraction work similarly on reddit as they do on paper. took me about half a minute to check that it was probably not a valid excuse to give in to my cold war psychosis, neither is this story.
Except, this isn't a "false" story. Everything goes, it's word against word here. So, i'd say, calling him out, saying "again a false story" (a repeat of when you posted that false piece) is an adhom. About the story itself, i kinda tend to think that it is in fact a "forge", but on the other hand, in the last couple of weeks i've seen russian officials say and do things that i'd consider way more retarded. So, nothing to be sure about here, certainly not enough to call it fact, but the same goes for calling it false.
When there is word against word the correct position to take is to dismiss the positive claim. In this case that means to take the position nunez takes.
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On April 18 2014 10:50 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On April 18 2014 04:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Maybe the US should go back to letting Europe deal with Europe. But then again what could you bitch about. The US technically leads NATO (which besides USA, Canada, and Turkey, entirely comprises European countries) and Europe overall is a very important strategic asset for the US. I can't see a world where what you suggest is possible  . On the same note, no combination of non-Russian European countries can put much of a response against a Russia aggressive beyond Crimea/Ukraine, so the US is very much needed for the protection, and well even self-assurance, of these European nations. On April 18 2014 01:28 Ghanburighan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have a feeling that we need to see the joint statement to interpret these statements. Doesn't sound like the Lavrov we've heard int he last few weeks. It's either a ploy of deceit or it is admittance that Russia's only real goal was securing Crimea (which makes perfect sense for various strategic, military, and political reasons) and anything else going on is just prodding for the insurgents (though for Christsake, they're making a lot of headway, from villages now to the capital of a province... so I don't think Russia is planning on killing its own momentum by these separatists). I'm thinking it's more of the first option though. Politicians are often full of shit, so I can't exactly trust Lavrov here. By the way, the VICE video you posted earlier had a rather surprising ending. It's almost as if these police officers are saying, "Well, may as well join the Russian side now". Right in Donetsk too, not some small town. I don't get it... Saw some video of, supposedly, the guys from Ukrainian army who switched sides talking to some protesting civilians and the guy posting it translated it as them basically saying that they were told they are going to fight terrorists and Russian special forces that hold hostages and when they arrived and found that it was lie they decided to switch sides. I will try to find it again, I have trouble following spoken Russian, so someone here hopefully can confirm if they are actually saying that. This might indicate that there is rather chaos and who knows what in Ukrainian police/army, plus they are really probably underpaid compared to Russian counterparts so it might be tempting to switch sides.
It would be great if you found it again. To be honest, it's not surprising. Most people won't like to admit it, but the political bullshit isn't entirely coming from Russia. Ukraine has its own share. I found the bullshit about Ukraine claiming that the captured armored vehicles were actually manned by disguised Ukrainian soldiers infiltrating the insurgents (which was obviously not true) to be [sadly] amusing.
However, there's always a motivation for bs. Here, Ukraine's provisional government needed a reason to motivate soldiers to get to action, and talking about hostages is very serious business.
However, what in the hell are they doing defecting? It's one thing to recognize you were lied to and be upset about it. It's another to defect, and then on top of that, join the enemy's (insurgents/Russia) side. A military organization has to function like clockwork to function effectively. This is why insubordination is not allowed and discipline is paramount in any military force. This defection is just really bad...
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On April 18 2014 10:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:47 m4ini wrote:the false story you posted it boiled down to a simple arithmetic error, as was pointed out in the reddit post. luckily addition and subtraction work similarly on reddit as they do on paper. took me about half a minute to check that it was probably not a valid excuse to give in to my cold war psychosis, neither is this story.
Except, this isn't a "false" story. Everything goes, it's word against word here. So, i'd say, calling him out, saying "again a false story" (a repeat of when you posted that false piece) is an adhom. About the story itself, i kinda tend to think that it is in fact a "forge", but on the other hand, in the last couple of weeks i've seen russian officials say and do things that i'd consider way more retarded. So, nothing to be sure about here, certainly not enough to call it fact, but the same goes for calling it false. When there is word against word the correct position to take is to dismiss the positive claim. In this case that means to take the position nunez takes.
Where the hell did you get that stupid idea from? In a verdict, maybe - but certainly not in an ongoing event. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that you dismiss the charge/claim, but you take both into consideration.
You have an extremely weird sense of of arguing, telling people they're "spreading propaganda", while in the same posting you try to relativize the actions of pro-russian activists (which, btw, is also propaganda), now if there's word against word, you suddenly "have to dismiss the positive claim" because someone said "well i didn't sign it"?
Come on.
By that logic, we have to believe basically everything putin vomits at the world. I can't really grasp the idea behind that.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country...
Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days.
But when i come to my girlfriend in Riga, sometimes even i feel bad :D
And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge.
And honestly, those fairytales about Russian army on Ukranian borders are just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as thing that i can't go to Starladder now because Ukraine blocked ability to come to the country :D Unreal.
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On April 18 2014 11:02 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:52 mcc wrote:On April 18 2014 10:47 m4ini wrote:the false story you posted it boiled down to a simple arithmetic error, as was pointed out in the reddit post. luckily addition and subtraction work similarly on reddit as they do on paper. took me about half a minute to check that it was probably not a valid excuse to give in to my cold war psychosis, neither is this story.
Except, this isn't a "false" story. Everything goes, it's word against word here. So, i'd say, calling him out, saying "again a false story" (a repeat of when you posted that false piece) is an adhom. About the story itself, i kinda tend to think that it is in fact a "forge", but on the other hand, in the last couple of weeks i've seen russian officials say and do things that i'd consider way more retarded. So, nothing to be sure about here, certainly not enough to call it fact, but the same goes for calling it false. When there is word against word the correct position to take is to dismiss the positive claim. In this case that means to take the position nunez takes. Where the hell did you get that stupid idea from? In a verdict, maybe - but certainly not in an ongoing event. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that you dismiss the charge/claim, but you take both into consideration. You have an extremely weird sense of of arguing, telling people they're "spreading propaganda", while in the same posting you try to relativize the actions of pro-russian activists (which, btw, is also propaganda), now if there's word against word, you suddenly "have to dismiss the positive claim" because someone said "well i didn't sign it"? Come on.
It is the only reasonable epistemological approach. I am not talking about court of law. I am talking about rules of evidence. If the only evidence on both sides of the claim is word of the opposing parties, the only reasonable thing to do until more evidence is presented is to dismiss the claim.
Also what are you talking about in your second paragraph ? Is it directed at me or did you mistake someone else's post for mine ?
EDIT:
On April 18 2014 11:02 m4ini wrote:
By that logic, we have to believe basically everything putin vomits at the world. I can't really grasp the idea behind that.
I think it is rather you that has some problems with logic. From what I said it actually follows that every positive claim Putin says can be dismissed if there is no additional supporting evidence.
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On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days. But when i come to my girlfriend in Riga, sometimes even i feel bad :D And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge. And honestly, those fairytales about Russian army on Ukranian borders are just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as thing that i can't go to Starladder now because Ukraine blocked ability to come to the country :D Unreal.
What bloody fairy tales man? It's been stated for quite a while now and confirmed that there are some tens of thousands of Russian soldiers near the border. This is one of the basic facts of the conflict.
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@m4ini actually re-reading the posts I see that you are referring to the "Jew registration" story, and I thought you are talking about the Crimea percentage story. So even though I stand by what I said, it does not completely (but it still does to some degree) apply to the story you were commenting on. You confused me because you quoted the part of the post that mostly talked about the other story.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 18 2014 11:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days. But when i come to my girlfriend in Riga, sometimes even i feel bad :D And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge. And honestly, those fairytales about Russian army on Ukranian borders are just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as thing that i can't go to Starladder now because Ukraine blocked ability to come to the country :D Unreal. What bloody fairy tales man? It's been stated for quite a while now and confirmed that there are some tens of thousands of Russian soldiers near the border. This is one of the basic facts of the conflict.
I've seen too many different numbers to believe at least to one.
And even if there are, let's agree with Rasmussen for once - 40k, i still don't think that it's more than for intimidation. Our politics are intelligent enough to not escalate, especially, considering fact that it seems that finally every side got at least some points of contact.
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On April 18 2014 11:21 mcc wrote:
@m4ini actually re-reading the posts I see that you are referring to the "Jew registration" story, and I thought you are talking about the Crimea percentage story. So even though I stand by what I said, it does not completely (but it still does to some degree) apply to the story you were commenting on. You confused me because you quoted the part of the post that mostly talked about the other story.
Well. Now that you say it, i could've mentioned it a bit clearer. Yes, i was talking about the jew-registrations.
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On April 18 2014 11:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 11:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days. But when i come to my girlfriend in Riga, sometimes even i feel bad :D And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge. And honestly, those fairytales about Russian army on Ukranian borders are just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as thing that i can't go to Starladder now because Ukraine blocked ability to come to the country :D Unreal. What bloody fairy tales man? It's been stated for quite a while now and confirmed that there are some tens of thousands of Russian soldiers near the border. This is one of the basic facts of the conflict. I've seen too many different numbers to believe at least to one. And even if there are, let's agree with Rasmussen for once - 40k, i still don't think that it's more than for intimidation. Our politics are intelligent enough to not escalate, especially, considering fact that it seems that finally every side got at least some points of contact.
Yeah it may be for intimidation, but the numbers are more than adequate for an invasion force, even without any aircraft, rocket artillery, or thermobaric weapons (how these are allowable is beyond my understanding)... and if Ukraine gets hostile with separatists, Putin and Friends will play "hero" and come in to 'save the day'.
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or thermobaric weapons (how these are allowable is beyond my understanding)...
probably because there's no real difference between dropping a conventional bomb on a knot of soldiers and a thermobaric one except that the latter is much more powerful. it's already illegal to indiscriminately level entire city blocks or any of the other situations where using a thermobaric weapon's power would be indiscriminate and too dangerous to any civilians nearby.
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On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days.
Russians won that war. When you win, and make it the most important achievement of Russia in the 20th century then of course you cant hate a defeated enemy. You dont see any Englishmen hating the French because the Napoleonic wars killed a lot of English guys.
And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states#Mass_deportations
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On April 18 2014 12:52 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days. Russians won that war. When you win, and make it the most important achievement of Russia in the 20th century then of course you cant hate a defeated enemy. You dont see any Englishmen hating the French because the Napoleonic wars killed a lot of English guys. Show nested quote +
And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states#Mass_deportations
Napoleon lost though. Britain won  Also, it was almost entirely soldiers who died form Britain, not civilians. USSR was to some degree the other way around, especially considering Hitler liked Slavs about as much as he liked Jews.
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On April 18 2014 12:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Russians won that war. When you win, and make it the most important achievement of Russia in the 20th century then of course you cant hate a defeated enemy. You dont see any Englishmen hating the French because the Napoleonic wars killed a lot of English guys.
This couldn't be further from the truth.
Russians used to respect Germans quite a bit in the early 20th century and in the centuries before. Now, they are considered by quite a substantial portion of the population to be fascists and the descendants of fascists.
War between England and France was much "cleaner" - it was a war between governments, with little of the village-burning etc that the Nazis did in the USSR. Conflicts of imperial interests are much easier to forgive than that, especially after they both lost their empires.
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On April 18 2014 11:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 11:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On April 18 2014 11:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 10:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood. Maybe they just view you the way you view Chechens, except, you know, Chechens never killed the majority of Russia's intelligentsia and are only colonizing Moscow, not the whole country... Dunno, i never hated some people because of their nationality/religion or other stuff. It's like i should hate m4ini for example just because he lives in Germany and Germans killed a lot of Russians back in the days. But when i come to my girlfriend in Riga, sometimes even i feel bad :D And when actually did Russians kill majority of Baltic's intellgentsia? I'm not trolling, just for knowledge. And honestly, those fairytales about Russian army on Ukranian borders are just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as thing that i can't go to Starladder now because Ukraine blocked ability to come to the country :D Unreal. What bloody fairy tales man? It's been stated for quite a while now and confirmed that there are some tens of thousands of Russian soldiers near the border. This is one of the basic facts of the conflict. I've seen too many different numbers to believe at least to one. And even if there are, let's agree with Rasmussen for once - 40k, i still don't think that it's more than for intimidation. Our politics are intelligent enough to not escalate, especially, considering fact that it seems that finally every side got at least some points of contact.
That doesn't disproove the story. Too many numbers actually strenghten the part of the story about soldiers being on the border since it indicates several different sources for them!
Soldiers on the border is an intimidation and escalation from not having soldiers on the border. Please stay on a logic course.
When that is said, the Geneva-deal seems to be a common plan for deescalation. Politically it is a move towards a less centralized Ukraine, which can be a good thing and can be a bad thing, depending on the specifics they haven't negotiated internally in Ukraine. What is scary, however, is Putins insistance that the result of the may 25 elections are invalid. That is plenty reason to keep the door open for an upcoming invasion and therefore a potential hurdle for how much deescalation you can get.
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On April 18 2014 15:56 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 12:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Russians won that war. When you win, and make it the most important achievement of Russia in the 20th century then of course you cant hate a defeated enemy. You dont see any Englishmen hating the French because the Napoleonic wars killed a lot of English guys. This couldn't be further from the truth. Russians used to respect Germans quite a bit in the early 20th century and in the centuries before. Now, they are considered by quite a substantial portion of the population to be fascists and the descendants of fascists. War between England and France was much "cleaner" - it was a war between governments, with little of the village-burning etc that the Nazis did in the USSR. Conflicts of imperial interests are much easier to forgive than that, especially after they both lost their empires.
Now I read an article though that says the exact opposite. That russians actually respect the germans for being a strong enemy. In quite a weird way, cause we don't really like the idea of that. I think it was in "Der Spiegel",
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On April 18 2014 17:54 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 15:56 LegalLord wrote:On April 18 2014 12:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Russians won that war. When you win, and make it the most important achievement of Russia in the 20th century then of course you cant hate a defeated enemy. You dont see any Englishmen hating the French because the Napoleonic wars killed a lot of English guys. This couldn't be further from the truth. Russians used to respect Germans quite a bit in the early 20th century and in the centuries before. Now, they are considered by quite a substantial portion of the population to be fascists and the descendants of fascists. War between England and France was much "cleaner" - it was a war between governments, with little of the village-burning etc that the Nazis did in the USSR. Conflicts of imperial interests are much easier to forgive than that, especially after they both lost their empires. Now I read an article though that says the exact opposite. That russians actually respect the germans for being a strong enemy. In quite a weird way, cause we don't really like the idea of that. I think it was in "Der Spiegel",
Maybe the russians are the next klingons.
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So, Putin owning the West again.
What I can see is Russia washing it's hands of it's aggresive actions in E. Ukraine by supporting the Geneva agreement. Basically, arguing that it helped deescalate the situation and that Russia is an international force for peace, while the Ukrainian government is incompetent . Ukraine has already shown incompetence in dealing with E. Ukraine, and just when it's finally making some headway in dealing with the protestors (and possibly regaining respect) - Russia wants to make sure that Ukraine doesn't solve the 'uprising', but that it's Russia that helps to solve the issue. Political capital for Russia, not Ukraine. This is especially relevant to what the Ukrainian people think of their own government- many Ukrainians are livid that the government's response has been so slow. Russia doesn't want Ukrainians to see its' government succeed in dealing with the protests.
It's just one possible explanation, but I think a rather likely one.
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On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!
well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature. a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea. Do you do anything except for personal attacks in this thread? That election story was widely circulated in the news, and the best you could do to counter it was to refer to a Reddit post... But I don't see why we're talking about this now. Both the leaflet itself and Pushilin's statement are old news already. It's still not clear who got their hands on those marked papers, and why they wanted to distribute it. It's definitely nefarious, whoever is behind it. And, realistically, people are `taking shits on Russia', as you so eloquently put it, because they annexed a part of a sovereign country for made up reasons, after invading it with their army troops (as Putin admitted today in his interview), and now they are doing the same to Eastern Ukraine. If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia. Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood.
Why? It took them around a month to annex Crimea, they just started the campaign for a much larger area. The annexation referendum is scheduled for the 11th of May, btw, just to give you an idea about the time scale we're talking about...
In another post you asked about killing off Baltic intelligentsia. Here you go:
+ Show Spoiler [history] +
There were several stages. In July 1940 the people in power before the Soviet annexation were imprisoned, killed or deported. Many people like landowners etc were drafted into the Soviet military and sent off to die without weapons (My grand-uncle among them).
In 1941, there was a larger round of deportation, mostly focusing on intelligentsia and people living in cities. Once the dust settled, roughly 50000 people were missing (5% of the population).
In 1949, there was another large round of deportation, focusing on people living in rural areas (a push for the collectivization). Naturally anyone else was included as well.
There was a constant threat of arrests, killings and deportation, though. For example, my uncle was sent off to copper mines in a Stan country in the 50s for `crimes against the Soviet Union', he was 16 at the time. And people were still killed or disappeared until at least the 80s.
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Also, more provocative images from Donetsk:
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
why should Lavrov worry about racism in Donetsk? its still Ukraine, no worries at all
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EPT
