Ukraine Crisis - Page 431

On April 17 2014 07:05 xDaunt wrote:
Christ, Obama may have a limper dick than Neville Chamberlain.

I get that no one wants to go to war over the Ukraine (and neither do I), but at a minimum, Obama needs to come out and signal unequivocally that NATO and the US will use military force if Russia tries any of this bullshit in the Baltic states or anywhere else that is under NATO protection. It's time for him to actually lead on something.

On April 18 2014 04:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Maybe the US should go back to letting Europe deal with Europe. But then again what could you bitch about.

On April 18 2014 05:11 Gorsameth wrote:

I dont blame the US for not acting, its well outside there sphere of influence but the EU is really showing the world how spineless they are.

On April 18 2014 05:50 Acertos wrote:

Well the problem with the EU is that we can't have everything: without stronger supranational and/or agencies that vote at the majority, the EU doesn't a common ground on most things just like in this case.
The 3 major powers are a mess and they can't see beyond their own national interest while an European global policy could benefit all three of them: Merkel doesn't seem to care about anything military related, Cameron will follow the US but Obama is indecisive, and Hollande is also indecisive because he wants to save everyone and also maintain french deals (mainly weapon deals) with Russia.

On April 18 2014 06:10 mcc wrote:

And that is a good thing. It is the best thing that ever happened to Europe, the spinelessness. It seems too much time has passed from the time when Europe was not spineless and people forgot how "awesome" it was then.

On April 18 2014 06:15 Sub40APM wrote:

I agree, teaching the Germans, the Poles, the French and the Swedes, the most rapacious imperialists and bloodthirsty invaders of their neighbors at one point or another to be as peaceful and inward looking as the Czechs is a tremendous achievement of the post war period. Now only if the Russian elite would stop rapacious rape of its country's resources while distracting the commoners with dreams of world power and actually figure out a way to make an average Russian's life catch up to an average Slovaks...

On April 18 2014 06:15 Sub40APM wrote:

I agree, teaching the Germans, the Poles, the French and the Swedes, the most rapacious imperialists and bloodthirsty invaders of their neighbors at one point or another to be as peaceful and inward looking as the Czechs is a tremendous achievement of the post war period. Now only if the Russian elite would stop rapacious rape of its country's resources while distracting the commoners with dreams of world power and actually figure out a way to make an average Russian's life catch up to an average Slovaks...

On April 18 2014 06:28 BeaSteR wrote:

I don't get why this "spinelessness" is a good thing in this situation. Standing up together against wrongdoings can never be wrong. Even if I don't believe in the EMU as an economical union I think the EU has a role in diplomacy and should be strong in condemning Putin's actions.

On April 18 2014 05:50 Acertos wrote:

Well the problem with the EU is that we can't have everything: without stronger supranational and/or agencies that vote at the majority, the EU doesn't a common ground on most things just like in this case.
The 3 major powers are a mess and they can't see beyond their own national interest while an European global policy could benefit all three of them: Merkel doesn't seem to care about anything military related, Cameron will follow the US but Obama is indecisive, and Hollande is also indecisive because he wants to save everyone and also maintain french deals (mainly weapon deals) with Russia.

Provocation under the walls of the synagogue Donetsk

In the evening, the eve of the second Seder near the synagogue appeared three men in camouflage and "Balaclava" and began handing out flyers and stick anti-Semitic content. When police arrived on call, who was distributing leaflets, was gone. Provocative leaflets prescribed "all citizens of Jewish nationality to appear for registration" and contained threats against those who evade registration.

Leaflets were signed "people's governor" Donetsk's Republic Denis Pushilin.

However, it soon appeared that he Denis Pushilin involvement categorically rejects. Moreover, he assured the members of the Jewish community of Donetsk, which was not involved in the provocation. The same thing he said on the air and the SEC "Donbass", noting that he never called himself a people's governor that the seal is clearly a fake and that the Jews they had no contradiction.

Whatever the incident was unpleasant words Pushilin of innocence, "the People's Republic of Donetsk" anti-Semitic leaflets in the Jewish community of Donetsk were positively received. According to the Chief Rabbi Pinchas Vyshedski Donbass, "residents of Donetsk - tolerant people, we live with them side by side almost without conflict. What happened, of course, smells like a provocation. Who is behind this - an open question. But since this is only a provocation to it and should be treated accordingly. Put point and close the topic. "

After huddling for six hours, the four parties at today's Geneva talks—Russia, Ukraine, the E.U., and the U.S.—emerged with something no one thought possible: a deal.

The statement announced that the parties had agreed to “initial concrete steps to de-escalate tensions and restore security”; it called for a broad national dialogue and constitutional reform; called in the OSCE to monitor the situation; and, most critically, it addressed all those separatists holed up in government buildings across southern and eastern Ukraine.

“All illegal armed groups must be disarmed. All illegally seized building must be returned to legitimate owners; all illegally occupied streets, squares and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated.”

The Ukrainian government also agreed to give those separatist protesters immunity from prosecution unless they were charged with capital crimes.

This is far more than anyone expected, but as with all such agreements—wait for it—the devil will be in the details. “The idea that everything will end with this is totally out of the question,” says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs.

First of all, OSCE can monitor all they want, but they have little ability to do anything other than monitor, unless, Lukyanov points out, they want to change Ukraine’s legal status to a European protectorate.

Second of all, the agreement calls on “illegal armed groups” to disarm. We in the West assume that refers to the pro-Russian thugs in Donetsk and Sloviansk, but what do the Russians mean? Remember, they still don’t recognize the provisional government in Kiev and the Russian media has been consistently calling them the “coup-installed government.” Are they supposed to vacate government buildings in Kiev?

And even if this isn’t the case and that the parties at the table hammered out the definition of the groups they’re referring to, who’s going to enforce this disarmament? As we’ve seen in the last few days, the provisional Ukrainian government has been utterly unable to dislodge anybody from just about anywhere. Now they may have the added confidence of this agreement, but not much ability to follow through.

Moreover, points out, Masha Lipman, a political analyst and editor with the Moscow Carnegie Center, “who speaks on behalf of these men in the east? Who can tell them to disarm?”

Same with the broad national discourse and inclusive constitutional reform: with whom would Kiev be speaking? “Constitutional reform is inescapable. Sooner or later, it has to happen,” Lukyanov says. “But who will talk with whom—there aren’t people in Donetsk who can say they speak for power because [Yanukovych’s] Party of Region that used to represent them has collapsed. The rebels are these murky groups, and no leaders have emerged.” That may have something to do with the fact that their unspoken leader is the Kremlin. That might be a good partner in getting these men to disarm, but how does one engage the Kremlin in Ukraine’s constitutional reform process—and make it look legitimate?

Then there’s the problem of Vladimir Putin, who, even as the talks were proceeding, announced to the nation that he had not ruled out using military force in Ukraine. For him, clearly, the Geneva agreement does not change this.

And, knowing this, Washington isn’t breathing a sigh of relief either. “It’s not bad as a piece of paper, but of course Putin can ratchet pressure up or down at will,” says one high-ranking U.S. official. “And we all assume that he still intends to continue in some form, if only to ruin the presidential elections” scheduled for May 25. The official also emphasized that the U.S. expects both “small signs of abiding by the agreement” and to follow through on implementing additional sanctions against Russia.

“The overall situation remains largely unchanged,” the official added.

In Kiev, suspicion remains high. “It’s most important right now not to believe Moscow,” says Vladimir Fedorin, an independent Russian journalist working in Ukraine. “They’ll take the time to regroup and strike another blow. I’ve internalized this rule in my five months in Kiev. Only joining NATO can alleviate this doubt.”

As for the Geneva agreement, Fedorin says, “I’m afraid it’s just a dead piece of paper.”
Source.

On April 18 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
How many times will those leaflets be posted in this thread?!

On April 18 2014 09:10 nunez wrote:

well, it seems that the shits taken on russia were premature.
a repeat of when you posted that false piece about >100% election result in crimea.

On April 18 2014 04:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Maybe the US should go back to letting Europe deal with Europe. But then again what could you bitch about.

On April 18 2014 01:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I have a feeling that we need to see the joint statement to interpret these statements. Doesn't sound like the Lavrov we've heard int he last few weeks.

On April 18 2014 06:10 mcc wrote:

And that is a good thing. It is the best thing that ever happened to Europe, the spinelessness. It seems too much time has passed from the time when Europe was not spineless and people forgot how "awesome" it was then.

the false story you posted it boiled down to a simple arithmetic error, as was pointed out in the reddit post. luckily addition and subtraction work similarly on reddit as they do on paper. took me about half a minute to check that it was probably not a valid excuse to give in to my cold war psychosis, neither is this story.

On April 18 2014 10:34 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:


The US technically leads NATO (which besides USA, Canada, and Turkey, entirely comprises European countries) and Europe overall is a very important strategic asset for the US. I can't see a world where what you suggest is possible .

On the same note, no combination of non-Russian European countries can put much of a response against a Russia aggressive beyond Crimea/Ukraine, so the US is very much needed for the protection, and well even self-assurance, of these European nations.


It's either a ploy of deceit or it is admittance that Russia's only real goal was securing Crimea (which makes perfect sense for various strategic, military, and political reasons) and anything else going on is just prodding for the insurgents (though for Christsake, they're making a lot of headway, from villages now to the capital of a province... so I don't think Russia is planning on killing its own momentum by these separatists). I'm thinking it's more of the first option though. Politicians are often full of shit, so I can't exactly trust Lavrov here.

By the way, the VICE video you posted earlier had a rather surprising ending. It's almost as if these police officers are saying, "Well, may as well join the Russian side now". Right in Donetsk too, not some small town. I don't get it...

On April 18 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:


If Russia was doing the same, Eastern Ukraine would have already been part of Russia.
Some day i will really believe that 95% of Balts get this hate of Russia with mother's milk in early childhood.