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On March 26 2014 09:20 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Russia already has a budding market in the Far East, which they've steadily been developing. They've been hardcore pushing over the past couple of years though, almost as if they foresaw this current scenario coming. But, gas is starting to travel east, regardless. The current crisis is pushing that trend even more than it already was. I hope that's not what you meant with "able to adapt easily", which you still would need to explain. For example, you forget time and time again to give an example of something russia could switch its industry to. Opening the gas/oil-market in the far-east is still kinda the oil/gas-industry, which you said they could "easily switch away from". Other than that, i wouldn't know anything even remotely relevant. Aircraft industry mostly domestic and dismissable (btw, russia pumped >25b roubles into their civil aircraft industry, to sell 15 planes in 2009 worth 12,5b roubles), automotive industry mostly domestic and dismissable, farming machines dismissable and not exportable to china, etc. What's their secret to endless adaptability? If you're talking about the aircraft industries in the far east, check your facts again. And yes, i'm fishing here, since you didn't manage even once to explain where you think the adaptability and awesomeness comes from. Show nested quote +I'm not the only one who thinks that Putin purposefully concentrated Russia's economy on a sector that he controls so that he controls most of the economy, right?
I don't think Putin ever tried to reform the Russian market in the first place, I think he took the inflexibility the current state of the market brings with itself as a sacrifice he was willing to make, to secure his iron grip over Russia. Oh he started reforms, look at the UAC (united aircraft corporation).
You mean to Mc's comment where he mentioned that corruption index? It's hard to determine the role of corruption when the Russian government is directly involved in projects. Typically, when the Russian government plays a huge role in the country's economy, and when they want to get a project done, they will get it done, so I'd say they have a decent grip on things they're interested in getting done regardless of corruption. It's not like the case where we throw some money at some extremely sleezy Iraqis, and it vanishes. This is why Iraqi development projects we have a direct hand in tend to go astronomically better.
Well, I wasn't even talking about auto manufacturing or really any manufacturing specifically (which is all you're looking at, and kind of incorrectly at that), but you know what's hilarious, Russia is expected to be the biggest automaker in Europe by the end of the decade at the latest. There's huge foreign investment in that area. Even your Volkswagen is planting huge stakes in Russia. [sarcasm]Unbelievable that the superior and master Germans would invest so heavily into the economy of an evil and inferior Slavic nation.[/sarcasm]
Anyone with any knowledge of anything to do with Russia knows about their arms sales, and that includes the focus of their aircraft sales as well. Even what you state was during the peak of the global recession in 2008-2009, so it's kind of out of context. I don't think UAC (I assume that is what you're specifically referring to) cares much about civilian sales either, nor have I heard anywhere that this was ever their priority. It's always been military. Other military firms have grown drastically in their sales over the past few years. Even the US was hurting a bit during those 2 years, and we have by far not just the biggest but the most dominating economy in the world. But, if I know anything about Russian manufacturing, they're pretty big on machinery too.
However, what you're completely ignoring is that Russia is by and large a service-oriented economy. Areas like IT/tech, electronics, e-commerce, construction, advertising/telecomms, etc. are growing a lot, despite the government putting literally all its focus into oil/gas and nanotech (the latter is a bit random considering the many areas of science in Russia, but whatever). Overall, I'd say they're doing alright for a 10-14 year-old economy (it basically started from rock bottom after the economic collapses and depression of the 90s). We can't expect them to be in the same class as nations that have been building on top of a capitalist economy (with the addition of exploitative imperialism at some point) for a couple centuries now.
Russia today is an very different place than it was a decade ago. In 2024, it'll be probably be an entirely different place than it is today. In my opinion, the biggest obstacle is government stubbornness and their prioritization of oil, and the mobsters who took over a lot of stuff following the Soviet collapse.
If Russia does have anything that will help, it's its practically infinite resources of every kind and a decently educated and industrious population. This is why when the Russian government stops doing what Silent Chill noted (ie. its almost sole interest in the energy industry), and actually gives some focus and money to stable areas of the economy that are growing, the economy will become more stable and have a lot more potential for growth since it will be less based on the fickleness of fossil fuels.
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You mean to Mc's comment where he mentioned that corruption index? It's hard to determine the role of corruption when the Russian government is directly involved in projects. Typically, when the Russian government plays a huge role in the country's economy, and when they want to get a project done, they will get it done, so I'd say they have a decent grip on things they're interested in getting done regardless of corruption. It's not like the case where we throw some money at some extremely sleezy Iraqis, and it vanishes. This is why Iraqi development projects we have a direct hand in tend to go astronomically better.
It's true that most of russias "national champions" are statefunded/owned. I'm obviously no expert, but in general, economics don't really work out if you do things "like whenever you want, what you want". For now, people are stupid enough to deal with it, at some point, they won't be. Especially if their business is "up for grabs".
Well, I wasn't even talking about auto manufacturing or really any manufacturing specifically (which is all you're looking at, and kind of incorrectly at that), but you know what's hilarious, Russia is expected to be the biggest automaker in Europe by the end of the decade at the latest. There's huge foreign investment in that area. Even your Volkswagen is planting huge stakes in Russia. [sarcasm]Unbelievable that the superior and master Germans would invest so heavily into the economy of an evil and inferior Slavic nation.[/sarcasm]
No, you weren't talking about anything, that's the point. Obviously my fault for you not being able to put up sources or back the statement "well they will adapt brilliantly". Other than that, while we're at ad hominems, are you in general such an asshole or do you just seem like one because of internet? Not to mention that your "hilarious fact" is that you read wikipedia wrong. Russia is the biggest car-market, but is not the biggest automaker. In 2012, they built less cars than Canada, ranking #15 on the worldwide-list. Most of those cars (Lada, GAZ etc) are sold domestically, again.
Now the interesting part, VW. I'm not entirely sure why you would bring that up, since it doesn't help russia's industry, but they built plants to make money over there, who would've thought. A car manufactured by VW in russia is a bit different than a russian car, i'm convinced you know the difference. You know why they built plants there? Because russia invented a recycling tax solely for imported cars. Interesting read.
Anyone with any knowledge of anything to do with Russia knows about their arms sales, and that includes the focus of their aircraft sales as well. Even what you state was during the peak of the global recession in 2008-2009, so it's kind of out of context. I don't think UAC (I assume that is what you're specifically referring to) cares much about civilian sales either, nor have I heard anywhere that this was ever their priority. It's always been military. Other military firms have grown drastically in their sales over the past few years. Even the US was hurting a bit during those 2 years, and we have by far not just the biggest but the most dominating economy in the world. But, if I know anything about Russian manufacturing, they're pretty big on machinery too.
Obviously the one military production in the world that could outproduce even the americans is a nice factor for income, but you can only sell so much. I can't be arsed to check how big of a percentage their weaponsales is in the total exports, but i bet you it's not even close to the energy sector and never will be. Machinery, can't talk much about that, but i know that china buys from the EU, as the EU buys from china, so i would dismiss that. Cars the same, for now china imports european cars, but they catch up so incredibly fast, that it's safe to say that at some point, they will export more than they import (starting with the qoros 3).
However, what you're completely ignoring is that Russia is by and large a service-oriented economy. Areas like IT/tech, electronics, e-commerce, construction, advertising/telecomms, etc. are growing a lot, despite the government putting literally all its focus into oil/gas and nanotech (the latter is a bit random considering the many areas of science in Russia, but whatever). Overall, I'd say they're doing alright for a 10-14 year-old economy (it basically started from rock bottom after the economic collapses and depression of the 90s). We can't expect them to be in the same class as nations that have been building on top of a capitalist economy (with the addition of exploitative imperialism at some point) for a couple centuries now.
Russia today is an very different place than it was a decade ago. In 2024, it'll be probably be an entirely different place than it is today. In my opinion, the biggest obstacle is government stubbornness and their prioritization of oil, and the mobsters who took over a lot of stuff following the Soviet collapse.
Well who would've thought, it's almost like every single developed country worldwide. In relation, the service sector in russia is actually pretty small. Obviously, they might grow. But they won't explode as you make it out to be.
Also, they didn't start from rock bottom, the infrastructure was partially there. And you're right, russias economy is pretty young, all the more confusing to call it "solid and adaptable", since they're heavily invested in one sector, and almost ignoring everything that is not part of the "national champions". That's neither stable, nor adaptable. I actually would call it a gamble. Sure, everything worked out until now, but that's because the EU bought their gas. The EU obviously wants russian gas since it's cheaper, but it's not the only option (even if you called it a "myth" that the EU looks for alternatives). If the EU were to stop that, russia doesn't have anything to fall back to. Not for the next 20 years.
As a sidenote, in the future, try to stay away from insulting, especially based on ethnicity. Even if you try to be smart about it, it makes you look extremely childish.
PS: it's not "my" Volkswagen. It's "germans" Volkswagen. Let's leave the childish "my country is better than yours", "oh the mighty germans" blabla out, if you can manage that.
edit: bedtime
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There's huge foreign investment in that area.
So... Russia can handle foreigners pulling out of investment in Russia or threatening to partially because of the huge foreign investment in Russia.
That was the sound of heads exploding in case anyone was wondering.
Where does Russia get the money that it is spending on oil/gas production that you say should go to other areas of the economy? Hint hint the same place it is spending that money. Russia can't afford to not invest allegedly disproportionately in its oil/gas production so as to spend that money on more "stable" areas of the economy. It's the same problem the USSR had, outside of oil/gas their revenue is not too impressive. They can't sustain their economy without the oil/gas revenue so spending money elsewhere to the cost of their oil/gas industry is kind of, you know, self-defeating. You're saying that they should re-break their leg because it wasn't set properly after being broken the first time. Perhaps that is true, but at the moment if they re-break their leg they consequently aren't going to have the capability to set it properly this time. Maybe in the future they'll be able to. Not right now.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/after-crimea-what-americans-make-of-russia-now/359576/
Pew notes that, for the first time since at least 2008, the American public now sees Russia as a greater concern than China; 68 percent view Russia as an "adversary" or a "serious problem," compared with 58 percent who feel the same way about China.
But the fact is, in the post-Cold War, post-9/11 world, Americans have never really agreed en masse that a particular country, as opposed to non-state actors like terrorists, is a clear-cut U.S. enemy. When pollsters insist that Americans pick an archrival, there's little consensus. In a Gallup poll in early February, for instance, Russia (9 percent) didn't even crack the top three "greatest enemies."
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America's greatest gift to dictators is that if they shut their mouths and keep their hands to themselves the American people forget about them pretty quick.
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On March 26 2014 12:52 DeepElemBlues wrote:So... Russia can handle foreigners pulling out of investment in Russia or threatening to partially because of the huge foreign investment in Russia. That was the sound of heads exploding in case anyone was wondering. Where does Russia get the money that it is spending on oil/gas production that you say should go to other areas of the economy? Hint hint the same place it is spending that money. Russia can't afford to not invest allegedly disproportionately in its oil/gas production so as to spend that money on more "stable" areas of the economy. It's the same problem the USSR had, outside of oil/gas their revenue is not too impressive. They can't sustain their economy without the oil/gas revenue so spending money elsewhere to the cost of their oil/gas industry is kind of, you know, self-defeating. You're saying that they should re-break their leg because it wasn't set properly after being broken the first time. Perhaps that is true, but at the moment if they re-break their leg they consequently aren't going to have the capability to set it properly this time. Maybe in the future they'll be able to. Not right now.
When was there massive investment pull-out from Russia? Even in the future, this would be highly improbable. At this time though, there are a few sanctions of minimal effect. Volkswagen, Renault, and others appear more than happy to continue developing the automotive sector in Russia, and as long as that's the case (among other things), then Putin and Friends are happy. I'm speaking in terms of the current situation, not in terms of hypothesized future scenarios. I think huge investment pullout is quite a ways off. P&F are happy right now. If we did something as dramatic as pulling out investment, they would not be (maybe this is what we should do, but it's hard to say what would happen otherwise).
I agree with the leg re-breaking. At one point or another, every developing country is going to need to do this. It won't be now, but sooner or later Russia will be doing this as I noted. I won't make any assumptions about how you feel about the Russian economy growing into something more stable and productive in the future, but as long as the end result is better living for the common folk in Russia and (hopefully) warmer bilateral relations between Russia some of the other nations in Europe, then I can't argue against that.
On March 26 2014 12:53 Sub40APM wrote:http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/after-crimea-what-americans-make-of-russia-now/359576/Show nested quote +Pew notes that, for the first time since at least 2008, the American public now sees Russia as a greater concern than China; 68 percent view Russia as an "adversary" or a "serious problem," compared with 58 percent who feel the same way about China.
But the fact is, in the post-Cold War, post-9/11 world, Americans have never really agreed en masse that a particular country, as opposed to non-state actors like terrorists, is a clear-cut U.S. enemy. When pollsters insist that Americans pick an archrival, there's little consensus. In a Gallup poll in early February, for instance, Russia (9 percent) didn't even crack the top three "greatest enemies."
All the poll is saying is that public opinion [usually] shifts with the media, to be honest. Russia takes the spotlight in our media now and in a negative light at that. And well, as you can imagine, people are going to be like "wow evil Russia". Note the first sentence you quoted, "For the first time since at least 2008", the last time Russia was a bad guy during their Georgian escapade. Little international political action anywhere in the world was ever taken without riling up the people in some way or another.
But more importantly, what is exactly the "concern" mentioned here in the poll? Is it a concern for American public safety? In that case, I don't think we should be concerned about either China or Russia at all. They don't threaten or pose any detriment to the US public. Personally, they don't concern me at all. What does concern me though is when ridiculous conspiracies pop up, like China being able to crash the US economy at a whim, or this ridiculous thing I saw last week.
it's almost like every single developed country worldwide
Jesus, did I miss somewhere that Russia became a developed country? Russia's an interesting case. They are still "developed" in some attributes of a typical developed country, but thanks to Murphy's Law in regards to the Russian economy during the 1990s, it's far and away from having the wealth of a developed country.
Interesting read (your link). Yeah this isn't a good year, but it also says this: "The Russian market is forecast to decline by up to 5 percent in 2013, but Boston Consulting said the market will overcome its current slump and grow at an average of 6 percent annually through 2020 to become the largest in Europe – and the fifth biggest globally - by 2020", which is what I stated :S.
Also, yes I realize VW makes money off that, any company makes money from investing in other countries, but you also know that investment into other countries benefits them too, right? That along with all the other sorts of investment is how most developing countries grow economically. Like you know that India has a well-developing tech sector (especially in Bangalore) largely due to huge-scale investment from American and other tech corporations? If we hadn't done that, I highly doubt they'd have an IT sector to speak of. Some people say this is giving Microsoft, Intel, etc. and US overall more power, etc.. That's irrelevant. I think India is significantly better off in practically every way because we practically built for them what they consider nowadays to be one of their most important assets, and our corporate branches there are the mecca of that.
And my apologies, I thought I'd join in on the trend of sarcastic satirical comments in this thread. It was a silly joke on my part, but my apologies regardless. In actuality, I'm friendly with Germany, don't worry  My only gripe with them is that their beer industry almost exclusively produces lagers and not ales heh.
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Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation?
And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/
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On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/
If this law is true, I've lost all faith in the Russian administration. Consider me part of the anti-Putin bandwagon. Even patience and fairness have their limits. >_>
Who runs the predatel.net website? Jesus, it's like Nazis are everywhere to some folks in Russia.
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So I found it in the RBK daily, which seems like a relatively normal source for Russia but I admit it wouldnt be the first or even third paper Russian paper I'd read. But I wouldnt automatically label it as yellow press either. And I am too lazy to go searching for online versions of the Russian criminal codex.
http://www.rbcdaily.ru/politics/562949990932895
C 9 мая призывы к действиям по возвращению Крыма Украине будут караться крупным штрафом или сроком до пяти лет, следует из подписанного в конце 2013 года Владимиром Путиным закона о внесении изменений в ст. 280 Уголовного кодекса. Вновь введенная статья 280.1 «Публичные призывы к осуществлению действий, направленных на нарушение территориальной целостности Российской Федерации» дополняет статью о наказании за призывы к экстремизму и гласит, что подобные призывы наказываются либо штрафом до 300 тыс. руб. или двухгодового дохода, либо обязательными работами на срок до 300 часов, либо лишением свободы на срок до трех лет. Если те же призывы будут в СМИ или в Интернете — обязательными работами на срок до 480 часов либо лишением свободы на срок до пяти лет.
From the 9th of may, calls to action to return Crimea to Ukraine will be punished either by a large fine or up to five years in jail, due to the newly signed law at the end of 2013 that was added into section 280 of the criminal codex. The newly entered statute, 280.1 titled "Public calls to actively act, aimed at the violation of territorial integrity of the Russian Federation" add onto the statute for punishing calls to extremism and sets the punishment for such calls to either 300,000 rubles or two years annual income, or forced labor of 300 hours or loss of freedom for up to three years. If this call to extremism was on the internet, forced labor increases to 480 hours or the loss of freedom is up to five years.
Законопроект был принят по инициативе главы КПРФ Геннадия Зюганова в соавторстве с депутатами-коммунистами. Он прошел парламент в кратчайшие сроки — внесен 10 декабря 2013 года, 20 декабря за него в третьем чтении проголосовали 447 депутатов Госдумы, и уже 28 декабря 2013 года подписан Владимиром Путиным. Тем не менее закон вступит в силу только с 9 мая 2014 года.
This law was passed under the initiative of the head of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation Zyuganov along with his fellow deputies. It rapidly passed parliament, it was entered on the 10th of December 2013, by the 20th during its third read 447 deputies voted for it and on the 28th of December it was signed as law by Vladimir Putin. The law will enter effect on may 9th, 2014.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/
They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it.
It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282.
282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious.
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On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious.
I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)?
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On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)?
Banning extremism is against freedom of expression? o.O
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Zurich15361 Posts
On March 26 2014 21:32 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)? Banning extremism is against freedom of expression? o.O
In a lot of societies, yes.
Everyone draws the line at some point. Obviously coming from a society that enjoys more freedom of expression those bans will be seen as going against that freedom.
Same reason a person from the US might call Germany less free because of their restrictions on Nazi propaganda.
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On March 26 2014 21:38 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 21:32 zeo wrote:On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)? Banning extremism is against freedom of expression? o.O In a lot of societies, yes. Everyone draws the line at some point. Obviously coming from a society that enjoys more freedom of expression those bans will be seen as going against that freedom. Same reason a person from the US might call Germany less free because of their restrictions on Nazi propaganda.
Yes, I understand that. But the the types of extremists that are banned in Crimea could be compared to the Baader-Meinhof Group in Germany. Some groups of people would get banned everywhere in the world.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)?
What is wrong with being punished for extremism? Before saying that "Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion", just think about it.
Freedom of expression, like fucking seriously. If you could, you would have dance with swastikas, killing Jewish guy in oven, like honestly? That's the freedom of expression which you want to have?
I'm exaggerating a bit, but that's things basically, for which you can be punished with 282.
We're not speaking about thing that cops like to use 282 more than they can, anyway people outside of Russia have no idea.
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On March 26 2014 22:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)? What is wrong with being punished for extremism? Before saying that "Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion", just think about it. Freedom of expression, like fucking seriously. If you could, you would have dance with swastikas, killing Jewish guy in oven, like honestly? That's the freedom of expression which you want to have? I'm exaggerating a bit, but that's things basically, for which you can be punished with 282. We're not speaking about thing that cops like to use 282 more than they can, anyway people outside of Russia have no idea.
Its just funny that you were thrashing ukraine for a proposed law that you quoted quite a few pages back in the thread, and now you are defending much worse laws simply because they are russian.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 26 2014 22:24 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 22:02 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 21:10 Maenander wrote:On March 26 2014 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 26 2014 14:58 Sub40APM wrote:Is this true, that if you call for return of Crimea back to Ukraine you are liable to go to jail for up 5 years due to the new anti-secessionist law Putin amended into the criminal code of the Russian Federation? And here is a website, titled "traitors" against anyone who spoke out against Russian action...because "The battle against neo-fascism must not be criticized, no matter how talented of a person you are" http://predatel.net/ They just added Crimea to region list in article 280, that's it. It's not completely new law, but i'm yet to see someone being jailed for it and not 282. 282 is just extremism and stuff, if people are curious. I will never understand all those Russian laws against the freedom of expression and the widespread support for it. Do the Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion (without getting convinced by it)? What is wrong with being punished for extremism? Before saying that "Russians think of their own people as so weak-minded that they can't handle a differing opinion", just think about it. Freedom of expression, like fucking seriously. If you could, you would have dance with swastikas, killing Jewish guy in oven, like honestly? That's the freedom of expression which you want to have? I'm exaggerating a bit, but that's things basically, for which you can be punished with 282. We're not speaking about thing that cops like to use 282 more than they can, anyway people outside of Russia have no idea. Its just funny that you were thrashing ukraine for a proposed law that you quoted quite a few pages back in the thread, and now you are defending much worse laws simply because they are russian.
I was thrashing pre-detention, because i think that being pre-detended when you did nothing is way worse than being punished for something which you did.
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Jesus, did I miss somewhere that Russia became a developed country? Russia's an interesting case. They are still "developed" in some attributes of a typical developed country, but thanks to Murphy's Law in regards to the Russian economy during the 1990s, it's far and away from having the wealth of a developed country.
Interesting read (your link). Yeah this isn't a good year, but it also says this: "The Russian market is forecast to decline by up to 5 percent in 2013, but Boston Consulting said the market will overcome its current slump and grow at an average of 6 percent annually through 2020 to become the largest in Europe – and the fifth biggest globally - by 2020", which is what I stated :S.[
Russia is expected to be the biggest automaker in Europe by the end of the decade at the latest.
That's what you stated, that's why i said that it's not true. Automarket != automaker. You can't build/sustain a country solely on imports though, greece being a nice example.
Also, yes I realize VW makes money off that, any company makes money from investing in other countries, but you also know that investment into other countries benefits them too, right? That along with all the other sorts of investment is how most developing countries grow economically. Like you know that India has a well-developing tech sector (especially in Bangalore) largely due to huge-scale investment from American and other tech corporations? If we hadn't done that, I highly doubt they'd have an IT sector to speak of. Some people say this is giving Microsoft, Intel, etc. and US overall more power, etc.. That's irrelevant. I think India is significantly better off in practically every way because we practically built for them what they consider nowadays to be one of their most important assets, and our corporate branches there are the mecca of that.
Can't talk about india, no idea in that regard. Obviously creating jobs in russia helps russia, but they already stated that if proper economic sanctions will hit (which we're assuming in this "bubble"), they will seize those assets (afaik they put a law up already for that). Meaning, no moneys flowing in, since obviously VW (and other western companies) would not pay their bills in that case.
And my apologies, I thought I'd join in on the trend of sarcastic satirical comments in this thread. It was a silly joke on my part, but my apologies regardless. In actuality, I'm friendly with Germany, don't worry My only gripe with them is that their beer industry almost exclusively produces lagers and not ales heh.
Weizenbier/Weissbier > everything. Apart from that, thanks and np.
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yep freedom of speech stops when you're speech is filled with hatred - which is why in most countries extreme right(neo-nazis, skinheads and such) speech is banned
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EPT
