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Russian Federation117 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:08 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. If its so obvious what the people of crimea want then why are the votes so blatantly tampered with? Why is this being done now, when there is a chaotic situation and militias/russian army running around on crimea with guns and other weapons? Why was it done in such short notice? Where has the huge movement on crimea to rejoin russia been up to now? And also, does Putin use the same logic to regions in russia? Let the ppl decide?
The movement on Crimea to join Russia has been since the moment it was gifted away to Ukraine. For whoever's been in Crimea there may be no doubt. It wasn't just possible to do that earlier until Ukraine gave an opportunity that was shortly taken by Russia.
Why rush you ask? Russia must have closed the deal until the elections in Ukraine. Simple as that.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?)
It wasn't approved by any parlaments (UK, US and Russia).
But let's not argue about it now.
Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries.
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On March 19 2014 22:27 FatCat_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:08 Fjodorov wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. If its so obvious what the people of crimea want then why are the votes so blatantly tampered with? Why is this being done now, when there is a chaotic situation and militias/russian army running around on crimea with guns and other weapons? Why was it done in such short notice? Where has the huge movement on crimea to rejoin russia been up to now? And also, does Putin use the same logic to regions in russia? Let the ppl decide? The movement on Crimea to join Russia has been since the moment it was gifted away to Ukraine. For whoever's been in Crimea there may be no doubt. It wasn't just possible to do that earlier until Ukraine gave an opportunity that was shortly taken by Russia. Why rush you ask? Russia must have closed the deal until the elections in Ukraine. Simple as that.
Again if the movement was there and in the majority why were the results so obviously tampered with?
Why did Russia have to send in soldiers. Block international observers, Not have maintaining current laws an option for the referendum?
Russia sure made a large attempt at casting doubt on the legitimacy of this referendum if its result was so clear and obvious as you say.
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On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parlaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries.
Wasn't approved by UK, US, Russia (based on your statement)
UK and US ignored it.
.. what?
Block international observers
They didn't, they gathered the neo-nazi/communist elite all over europe.
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On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries.
It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parlaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries.
Well, that makes this agreement as good of a matter as... void.
Well, ignoring such agreements when "lesser" countries is the usual thing. In fact i even remember something.... oh wait, never mind. Not to mention that by nature it does not force actions to be taken, just encourages them, is it?
EDIT: Fixing misuse of words.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:35 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
[quote]
It's not mood in Russia :D
It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right.
I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parlaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. Wasn't approved by UK, US, Russia (based on your statement) UK and US ignored it. .. what?
Woosh, i meant that they ignore Ukraine at all, not only because of treaty or some stuff.
But it was expected like always with lesser countries, that's it.
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On March 19 2014 22:35 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
[quote]
It's not mood in Russia :D
It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right.
I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parlaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. Well, that makes a treaty void. Well, ignoring such treaties when "lesser" countries is the usual thing. In fact i even remember something.... oh wait, never mind.
Except it wasn't a treaty. Try reading the wikipedia-link i gave you, please.
Woosh, i meant that they ignore Ukraine at all, not only because of treaty or some stuff.
Mea culpa, misunderstood then.
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On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
[quote]
It's not mood in Russia :D
It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right.
I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though.
ah, must be the same as the agreement that the NATO won't expand past the iron curtain?
"agreements" are held in high respect by both sides it seems.
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On March 19 2014 22:43 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though. ah, must be the same as the agreement that the NATO won't expand past the iron curtain? "agreements" are held in high respect by both sides it seems.
The agreement wasn't with NATO but ukraine. Cute that you're trying to derail again, but ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal to russia, so your "argument" is completely nonexistant.
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On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own.
Promises are always non-binding. Even treaties. I think the promise to Gorbatchev to not extend NATO east was already mentioned. How did that turn out ? Once West saw Soviet Union split and Russia weakened and not able to protect its interests promises were forgotten. Are you surprised ?
And of course the numbers probably do not add up, though considering only cca 80% participation it is possible that with all the fear spreading and propaganda they actually might be correct. Though I doubt it. But the conjecture that majority would want to join Russia seems very plausible anyway. If not, where are the massive protests. Do you think even armed soldiers would stop the movement supported by more than 50% of the population. Did not stop Maidan protesters.
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On March 19 2014 22:49 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. Promises are always non-binding. Even treaties. I think the promise to Gorbatchev to not extend NATO east was already mentioned. How did that turn out ? Once West saw Soviet Union split and Russia weakened and not able to protect its interests promises were forgotten. Are you surprised ? And of course the numbers probably do not add up, though considering only cca 80% participation it is possible that with all the fear spreading and propaganda they actually might be correct. Though I doubt it. But the conjecture that majority would want to join Russia seems very plausible anyway. If not, where are the massive protests. Do you think even armed soldiers would stop the movement supported by more than 50% of the population. Did not stop Maidan protesters.
And again. The agreement was with the ukraine, not the NATO. I don't understand why people try to point at the NATO, when there's a thing between the Ukraine (non-nato) and Russia.
I suppose russia would be fine if the ukraine voids that statement as well and purchases (well they're too poor now, but the theory) nuclear weapons again, correct?
PS: "seems very plausible", try to sell that a prisoner who might be punished by death. There's certain things in the world where "maybe, yeah, might be enough or smth" is not good enough.
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On March 19 2014 22:45 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:43 fleeze wrote:On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though. ah, must be the same as the agreement that the NATO won't expand past the iron curtain? "agreements" are held in high respect by both sides it seems. The agreement wasn't with NATO but ukraine. Cute that you're trying to derail again, but ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal to russia, so your "argument" is completely nonexistant.
what are you even talking about?
the agreement discussed here was between UK, US and Russia ABOUT the ukraine.
also there are no agreements possible with the ukraine at the moment becausethe ukraine doesn't have a legit government. but that's a fact you and some other people in the west ignore constantly.
On March 19 2014 22:53 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:49 mcc wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. Promises are always non-binding. Even treaties. I think the promise to Gorbatchev to not extend NATO east was already mentioned. How did that turn out ? Once West saw Soviet Union split and Russia weakened and not able to protect its interests promises were forgotten. Are you surprised ? And of course the numbers probably do not add up, though considering only cca 80% participation it is possible that with all the fear spreading and propaganda they actually might be correct. Though I doubt it. But the conjecture that majority would want to join Russia seems very plausible anyway. If not, where are the massive protests. Do you think even armed soldiers would stop the movement supported by more than 50% of the population. Did not stop Maidan protesters. And again. The agreement was with the ukraine, not the NATO. I don't understand why people try to point at the NATO, when there's a thing between the Ukraine (non-nato) and Russia. I suppose russia would be fine if the ukraine voids that statement as well and purchases (well they're too poor now, but the theory) nuclear weapons again, correct? PS: "seems very plausible", try to sell that a prisoner who might be punished by death. There's certain things in the world where "maybe, yeah, might be enough or smth" is not good enough.
i do think NEITHER the west NOR russia have any interest in the ukraine becoming a nuclear power. so please stop spreading nonsense.
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also there are no agreements possible with the ukraine at the moment becausethe ukraine doesn't have a legit government. but that's a fact you and some other people in the west ignore constantly.
Oh by that standard, you agree that the referendum was illegal then? Since it was unconstitutional? Because that's what the other part of the world constantly ignores?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +also there are no agreements possible with the ukraine at the moment becausethe ukraine doesn't have a legit government. but that's a fact you and some other people in the west ignore constantly.
Oh by that standard, you agree that the referendum was illegal then? Since it was unconstitutional? Because that's what the other part of the world constantly ignores?
By that standard best thing we can do about ukraine is to ignore it's existence. And grab a pie while it is up for grabs. Crimea happened to be that strange pie that wanted (while not by overwhelming amount of people, but majority nonetheless (okay, probably, dunno, since nobody could/can count amount of votes made)) to be grabbed by someone who wanted to grab it.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
On March 19 2014 22:32 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:27 FatCat_13 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:08 Fjodorov wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:It's not mood in Russia :D It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right. I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. If its so obvious what the people of crimea want then why are the votes so blatantly tampered with? Why is this being done now, when there is a chaotic situation and militias/russian army running around on crimea with guns and other weapons? Why was it done in such short notice? Where has the huge movement on crimea to rejoin russia been up to now? And also, does Putin use the same logic to regions in russia? Let the ppl decide? The movement on Crimea to join Russia has been since the moment it was gifted away to Ukraine. For whoever's been in Crimea there may be no doubt. It wasn't just possible to do that earlier until Ukraine gave an opportunity that was shortly taken by Russia. Why rush you ask? Russia must have closed the deal until the elections in Ukraine. Simple as that. Again if the movement was there and in the majority why were the results so obviously tampered with? Why did Russia have to send in soldiers. Block international observers, Not have maintaining current laws an option for the referendum? Russia sure made a large attempt at casting doubt on the legitimacy of this referendum if its result was so clear and obvious as you say.
Not sure why you ask the questions I already answered - It was a time constraint. Once again, Russia must close it off before Ukraine elects the new President (very likely Timoschenko) who Putin obviously wants doing business with.
What do you do when you have time constraints? You'll try getting rid of risks threatening to delay the work. That was what Russia did. Plus, EU and US would not have recognized the results no matter what. Just because they see no gain doing it.
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On March 19 2014 22:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +also there are no agreements possible with the ukraine at the moment becausethe ukraine doesn't have a legit government. but that's a fact you and some other people in the west ignore constantly.
Oh by that standard, you agree that the referendum was illegal then? Since it was unconstitutional? Because that's what the other part of the world constantly ignores?
the referendum is as "illegal" as the government in kiev. i said this multiple times. you just can't apply the double standard as you and our lovely western politicians do.
so it evens out i suppose and there is no reason to blame one side for everything.
btw: although the referendum was "illegal", i, and even many western commentators, think it still represents the opinion of the people in crimea appropriately.
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On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 21:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
[quote]
It's not mood in Russia :D
It's just another Russian retard. Hope, noone really thinks that it's right.
I just hope that some day we will free from such retards especially in diplomacy. Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though.
Well, it is kind of a fickle situation. As soon as Russia breached the territorial integrity of Ukraine, USA and UK would be forced to honour the agreement too, which would have resulted in war. UK and USA found it unnecessary to escalate the situation and therefore didn't hold up their end of the deal, if it is true that the agreement is valid. We end up in a situation where nobody honoured this agreement. Russia broke it first, that is correct, but USA and UK broke it too...
Usually modern agreements require more explicit consequences for breaking deals, which requires parliamentary approval, but that is afaik a new thing.
Now, the agreement is still signed, meaning it holds a certain gentleman agreement. Russia dishonouring it should count for something if any older treaties should have any value at all!
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On March 19 2014 22:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +also there are no agreements possible with the ukraine at the moment becausethe ukraine doesn't have a legit government. but that's a fact you and some other people in the west ignore constantly.
Oh by that standard, you agree that the referendum was illegal then? Since it was unconstitutional? Because that's what the other part of the world constantly ignores?
of course the referendum was illegal, by Ukranian standards. If Tibet managed to pull off what Crimea did whole western world would rejoice and congratulate it, even though it would be illegal.
Doing something that is illegal does not always make it wrong. Especially when considering the laws are of a supposedly corrupt and unstable country...
However from what I managed to read about, legal experts do admit that referendum was in fact legitimate
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On March 19 2014 23:00 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2014 22:35 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2014 22:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 19 2014 22:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 19 2014 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 22:15 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:52 Maenander wrote:On March 19 2014 21:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 19 2014 21:19 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
Would say that it's fair to say that it's the mood among the people in power? While Putin is likely to want a restoration of the USSR I doubt even he expects to get that far. Atleast this in his lifetime. Who cares what the "Russians" want. It's the people in Crimea that count. If they want "back" to Russia, and despite the flaws in the referendum there is little doubt that they do, then by all means let them. Hardly anyone tries to defend Khrushchev's decision to give the Crimea to Ukraine, because almost everyone can tell that it was wrong. I understand the fear of people in Eastern European countries that this is just the beginning of further Russian expansionism, but that shouldn't be used as a reason to trample on the rights of the Crimeans. We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it, but any Russian who thinks that the Soviet Union can be easily restored now will be very disappointed. Crimea is a different matter. The west was all for building nation states and letting the population decide when it came to Yugoslavia, and now that it's Russians it's suddenly different? The EU should use this Russian victory. Let them have Crimea but force them to make concessions to get our approval. Not only concessions to the EU but mainly to the Ukraine to help their situation in these difficult times. Id say there is plenty of reason to doubt what the Crimea people want. It has been shown often enough that the numbers don't add up. If this was a fair referendum sure. Then they decided and its up to them but this wasn't a remotely fair referendum. And ofc other countries are afraid. They have just been shown that all the promises they got are null and void while an angry bear at there borders is waking up. The west has send a clear message. You are on your own. No country who is in the NATO is on its own. It's just not true. The Ukraine is an entirely different case and that should be made clear. The Ukraine is a failed state politically and economically, the Euromaidan protesters and the pro-Russian separatists are just two sides of the same coin. Both movements are unhappy about the political and economic situation, get easily seduced by nationalistic sentiments and are looking to outside forces for help. It's likely that the Ukraine will be better off without a bunch of Crimean separatists adding to its multitude of problems. And it's time to move on beyond this silly confrontation between superpowers and face the real crisis, which is the desolate state of the Ukraine and its economy. the US, UK and Russia had a treaty to protect Ukraine's sovereign integrity. One of those Invaded it. The other 2 stood by and let it happen. You tell me that anyone in that region is feeling safe right now? Had a treaty? Apparently there is an info that treaty (at least in Russia) was not really approved (ratificated?) It wasn't approved by any parliaments (UK, US and Russia). But let's not argue about it now. Thing is that UK and US really just ignored it almost absolutely like always happen with lesser countries. It was an agreement, those aren't ratified in parliaments... Doesn't make them void, though. Well, it is kind of a fickle situation. As soon as Russia breached the territorial integrity of Ukraine, USA and UK would be forced to honour the agreement too, which would have resulted in war. UK and USA found it unnecessary to escalate the situation and therefore didn't hold up their end of the deal, if it is true that the agreement is valid. We end up in a situation where nobody honoured this agreement. Russia broke it first, that is correct, but USA and UK broke it too...
As someone has pointed out in this thread before the Budapest Memorandum is not a security guarantee. All it says that these countries won't attack Ukraine not that they would protect it against aggression.
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EPT
