EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 346
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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated. New policy, please read before posting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711 | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
given that Russia is far dirtier, that's an odd choice. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:40 myminerals wrote: it is. propaganda is everywhere, I try to keep my head above the surface. you are failing badly. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x3m4sMU.jpg) Romania is sitting at a national debt of 37% their GDP xM(Z. That's perfectly fine. What you're describing here isn't really i check with reality. Personally I'm a little sad that people are still so inclined to nationalism, after all economic growth is the number one thing to help rising the living standards. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22577 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:42 myminerals wrote: Neither side is 100% clean, but I'd give Russia my vote just because there is more sense in its actions in my opinion. There is sense in invading a country and forcing it to join you? Well if you love medieval life I guess there is yeah. Tobad some of us like the way the world has advanced since then. | ||
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seenster
Germany385 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:32 myminerals wrote: so are you implying that the referendum was all a fraud and Crimean people have nothing to do with the current situation? No I don't. However I am implying that the "international observers" are slightly biased. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:41 xM(Z wrote: but we're not becoming richer, we are just given more debt. they give us (lend) money so we could buy their shit then leave us with the debt. Actually that was the Conducător economic policy, which is why in the late 80s you had austerity. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:54 Gorsameth wrote: There is sense in invading a country and forcing it to join you? Well if you love medieval life I guess there is yeah. Tobad some of us like the way the world has advanced since then. He will say that the Crimean people want to join Russia so they aren't being forced. Nobody is dragging them into the voting booths. I am very anti-Putin but I'm pretty sure that over 50% of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia. I'm sure the Russian propaganda that was decimated after invasion pushed this number even higher. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:51 zlefin wrote: so their debt is only like, 65 billion and he's complaining? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. well if you think we had 0 debt few years ago when communism fell and that it'll only go up ... our kids will be slaves but anyway that's off topic. (i won't even mention that to have debt you must first afford to have it) @Sub40APM: we had austerity 'cause he payed out debt. point was, people hate the west more then they like Putin. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
It'd be funny if RT (Russia's international propaganda network) said : "American, Polish, German, French, Italian, Czech, Ukranian... etc, etc. media claims that Russia has performed an illegal military act against a sovereign country"  | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 19 2014 05:05 Mc wrote: Why is it always "Russian Media" and "Western Media". The media of all of these countries have very different opinions on different things (EU expansion/inclusion, regional politics, IRAQ WAR, etc.). It'd be funny if RT (Russia's international propaganda network) said : "American, Polish, German, French, Italian, Czech, Ukranian... etc, etc. media claims that Russia has performed an illegal military act against a sovereign country" Yes the whole 'western media' term is idiotic. The only thing western about them is that the people working there have been socialized in Western countries. There is no institutional pressure on them to from a certain opinion that the government wants the people to have. Very big news agencies like The Guardian and Spiegel have proven over and over again that they don't give a crap if what they're reporting is 'in line' with what western Governments want. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 19 2014 05:05 Mc wrote: Why is it always "Russian Media" and "Western Media". The media of all of these countries have very different opinions on different things (EU expansion/inclusion, regional politics, IRAQ WAR, etc.). It'd be funny if RT (Russia's international propaganda network) said : "American, Polish, German, French, Italian, Czech, Ukranian... etc, etc. media claims that Russia has performed an illegal military act against a sovereign country" the west is run by the great [conspiracy generator here] conspiracy. it's a united front | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Russian_economy_since_fall_of_Soviet_Union.PNG) It's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia So you see from this, Yeltsin mismanaged the economy and Putin was quite successful, if you want to attribute economic growth of a country to its leader. So there is certainly a fear that when sanctions really hit, people in Russia will be upset. But will they be upset about Putin? When will the sanctions hit? Half a year, a year, longer term? How badly will Europe be hit by them? Can Russia evade them somewhat by strengthening its ties with China or India? Do we want that? What does all this mean for peace in Europe? In my opinion it would be far better to integrate Russia and build Europe with them and not against them. There are already proposals to allow Ukraine to be associated with the European Union and the Eurasian Union of Russia. A guarantee for its territorial integrity (probably without Crimea) under the pretense that Ukraine will not become a NATO member state. If Ukraine pushes for NATO, I can see Russia invading. Some of Russia's military weapons are currently produced in eastern Ukrainian factories and I'm sure they don't want these under NATO command. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
Turkey has reportedly threatened to close the Bosphorus to Russian ships, if there is violence against the Crimean Tatars. In his speech today, President Putin was at pains to stress that the rights of Tatars, persecuted and deported from Ukraine in the Stalin-era, would be protected. Citing a diplomatic source, the Sofia news agency says that Turkey’s prime minister Recep Erdogan made the threat in a telephone conversation with Putin. Erdogan also said that Turkey would not recognise the referendum in Crimea in which 97% of the voters cast their ballots in favour of joining the Russian Federation, according to the report. | ||
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Saryph
United States1955 Posts
With the tatar houses being marked, and some of their buildings being burned down, combined with the Tatar who was found tortured to death in Crimea, you'd hope they'd at least do that. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On March 19 2014 05:04 xM(Z wrote: well if you think we had 0 debt few years ago when communism fell and that it'll only go up ... our kids will be slaves but anyway that's off topic. (i won't even mention that to have debt you must first afford to have it) @Sub40APM: we had austerity 'cause he payed out debt. point was, people hate the west more then they like Putin. your debt is 70 billion ish dollars and is a third of your gdp. affordability IS a function of the % of gdp your debt is. And communism didn't fall a few years ago, it fell over twenty years ago. The US debt is 17-ish TRILLION dollars; and 90% or so of our gdp last I checked. Our debt is 250x yours. So no, your debt is nothing to complain about at all. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On March 19 2014 05:15 Banaora wrote: So Nyxisto, as you posted GDP for Romania, I'm going to post it for Russia: It's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia So you see from this, Yeltsin mismanaged the economy and Putin was quite successful, if you want to attribute economic growth of a country to its leader. So there is certainly a fear that when sanctions really hit, people in Russia will be upset. But will they be upset about Putin? When will the sanctions hit? Half a year, a year, longer term? How badly will Europe be hit by them? Can Russia evade them somewhat by strengthening its ties with China or India? Do we want that? What does all this mean for peace in Europe? In my opinion it would be far better to integrate Russia and build Europe with them and not against them. There are already proposals to allow Ukraine to be associated with the European Union and the Eurasian Union of Russia. A guarantee for its territorial integrity (probably without Crimea) under the pretense that Ukraine will not become a NATO member state. If Ukraine pushes for NATO, I can see Russia invading. Some of Russia's military weapons are currently produced in eastern Ukrainian factories and I'm sure they don't want these under NATO command. I'm trying to find a better chart, but it's quite clear a lot of Russia's economic success since Putin can be attributed to oil prices. This is not the best chart but.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crude_oil_prices_since_1861.png I'm not an expert on economy, so I would accept an argument that Putin did a good job taking advantage of the situation and the gains can be attributed to Putin's handling of the situation. But accepting that, I would argue that Putin isn't setting up Russia's economy for long term success. They are a horrible place to do business (see corruption index, and politics over-meddling in business is obviously bad) and rely way too heavily on gas/oil prices to sustain their economy. Very fragile economy. Also Putin's aggression in Ukraine is causing countries to re-think doing business with them, and more importantly, to look for energy sources elsewhere. In the long term Russia is f*ed. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I agree it doesn't seem well setup for long term success in Russia. | ||
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